Badger Renegade Velocity- WOW!

Nice lines Frank.  Just curious, did you use the adjustable needle stop to do that?

Don

Frank, what are you doing? I had myself convinced that the 100LG was "good enough", but I can see plainly that it isn't! How the heck am I supposed to sneak that into the house?

Bgrigg

 How the heck am I supposed to sneak that into the house?

Bill

I got this....  what you do is, you wait a few weeks, then, late one Saturday evening, you slip it into a wicker basket and put it on your front step.  The next morning, when you get up, you say, 'Hey honey, look what the Easter Bunny brought for me!' 

I give you my 100% guarantee that it will work.  If it doesn't, you are free to ship that airbrush straight to me....

Don- I tried it both with the adjustable needle stop and without.  The finest lines are done using the stop, the wider ones without.  I was a bit skeptical about the needle stop when I read about it, but I think I am really going to like it.

Bill- LOL!  I had convinced myself too the 100LG was the last 'brush I would ever need.  Almost bought myself a new Patriot 105, but a quick conversation with Ken at Badger convinced me to try this one.  Boy, was he right!  This thing is incredible.  I just painted my 1/144 Eduard ME-262 mottle scheme with the 100, now I have to build another one to try the Velocity on it!

Oh, and by the way...

Just tell the wife it was my fault if she catches you sneaking it into the house!

Hey Daywalker

Would you be willing to share some of the details of that conversation you had with Ken that swayed you to the Renegade over the Patriot?  I've been toying with an upgrade in the airbrush department, and have been really impressed by what I read about the Patriot, so I'd be really interested to hear Ken's thoughts....

Absolutely,

Here is what I received from Ken when I asked him his thoughts on the Patriot vs. the Velocity:

"The renegade velocity will give you finer detail, but you'll have to be conscientious about your paint prep to avoid the clogging that usually comes with such fine detail airbrushing.  The Patriot will be far more forgiving, but will only be equal at best to your 100LG in detail capability.  It will spray exceptionally problem free with the Tamiya acrylics.  The other thing about the Patriot is that the transition from fine to wide spray is very quick and sensitive because of the double angle on the needle tip- hope that helps.  With what you have already - if you're getting something a new, I think the renegade is a better choice."

HTH!

Very helpful!  Thank you!

Personally I was impressed with how the Velocity was able to put down ultra thin layers of paint.  That was more important to me than thin lines even if the abilty to detail was handy in free-hand camouflage.

I would recommend the Velocity for the beginner to expert.  I know that a lot of people prefer to start with a cheap brush and move on to a better one down the road when one's skill improves.    But I think in this age of internet sharing of information, one should start off with the Velocity.  

For most people, this brush will likely be the last brush they own.

brickshooter

I would recommend the Velocity for the beginner to expert.  I know that a lot of people prefer to start with a cheap brush and move on to a better one down the road when one's skill improves.    But I think in this age of internet sharing of information, one should start off with the Velocity.  

For most people, this brush will likely be the last brush they own.

I would agree to a point although I feel the Patriot and the Velocity would be a good pair for modeling.

While the Velocity is a fantastic airbrush it is more delicate than the Patriot and is a direct competitor to the Iwata Micron. Yes it has it's uses but I would say overall the Patriot is more versatile and simpler to disassemble.

Daywalker

Absolutely,

Here is what I received from Ken when I asked him his thoughts on the Patriot vs. the Velocity:

"The renegade velocity will give you finer detail, but you'll have to be conscientious about your paint prep to avoid the clogging that usually comes with such fine detail airbrushing.  The Patriot will be far more forgiving, but will only be equal at best to your 100LG in detail capability.  It will spray exceptionally problem free with the Tamiya acrylics.  The other thing about the Patriot is that the transition from fine to wide spray is very quick and sensitive because of the double angle on the needle tip- hope that helps.  With what you have already - if you're getting something a new, I think the renegade is a better choice."

HTH!

I wonder if Ken is describing the standard needle/nozzle set on the patriot. I have the fine set on the Patriot. The transition from fine to wide spray is somewhat faster than my other AB, Iwata Eclipse HP-CS, but not too sensitive for modeling. I do prefer the more gentle action better, but regard it as personal choice.

If the Patriot Standard is equivalent to the 100LG. I wonder if the Partiot Fine will fit somewhere in between the Velocity and the 100LG. May be Don Wheeler or MikeV will shine some light on this. I also find the Patriot Fine to be quite forgiving in clogging in using with Tamiya acrylics.

Just my 2 cents from a non-expert, average airbrush user.

I am also considering buying a patriot.  I own a 100 lg with the medium nedle and tip.  It is my understanding that the patriot comes with a fine needle and tip, so would be muh more of a "detail" brish for me.  My main reason for wanting one is that I own a 155 anthem, and love it's spray characteristics, so getting basically the same brusg with a gravity feed seemed win/win!  Now I am second guessing my purchase based on Ken saying it is not much different from my 100. 

I'd like to hear from some folks who own both (or all 3 Mike V!)

Killjoy

I am also considering buying a patriot.  I own a 100 lg with the medium nedle and tip.  It is my understanding that the patriot comes with a fine needle and tip, so would be muh more of a "detail" brish for me.  My main reason for wanting one is that I own a 155 anthem, and love it's spray characteristics, so getting basically the same brusg with a gravity feed seemed win/win!  Now I am second guessing my purchase based on Ken saying it is not much different from my 100. 

I'd like to hear from some folks who own both (or all 3 Mike V!)

KIlljoy, I would agree with Ken of course.

What I would tell you is that one of the biggest differences is that the Patriot as well as the 155 Anthem and several others use a "standard" cone (tip) which is simple and easy to replace should you need one. The Badger 100LG, Sotar 20/20, Velocity, and others use a "micro tip" which is a much smaller tip and also more delicate and easier to damage in my opinion. Your 100LG with a medium tip is going to spray very similar to the Patriot with a fine tip in my opinion. The main difference would be what I mentioned already about the tip being a simple cone tip on the Patriot and Anthem. Personally I like the simplicity of airbrushes with the cone tip design such as the Patriot, Anthem, Badger 360, 3155 Hybrid, Omni 4000, Vega 1000, etc because they are simple and have no small parts that are very delicate and must be handled with much more care like the micro tips.

My suggestion would be to try out a Patriot 105 if you are seriously considering it. If you like it better you should have no problem selling the 100LG to another modeler here on the forum.

I hope that was helpful. If you have further questions please ask and I will try and answer as best as I can.

keilau

 

 

 

I wonder if Ken is describing the standard needle/nozzle set on the patriot.

I would assume he is Keilau but you would have to ask him.

f the Patriot Standard is equivalent to the 100LG. I wonder if the Partiot Fine will fit somewhere in between the Velocity and the 100LG. May be Don Wheeler or MikeV will shine some light on this. I also find the Patriot Fine to be quite forgiving in clogging in using with Tamiya acrylics.

That would depend on which needle and tip you are referring to on the 100LG Keilau.

I would say that the Patriot 105 with the fine needle is probably very close in spray characteristics to the 100LG with the medium needle as the 100LG is an illustrators airbrush and the Patriot is more geared specifically to modelers. With the fine needle and tip in the 100LG I think it is a step above the Patriot 105 as far as ability to spray the finest lines possible but that of course is a tough decision as an illustration airbrush with a fine tip is more difficult to get to spray reliably with the paints we use in modeling. I think I need to get out the airbrush arsenal and do some testing when I get some time to do so as you have me thinking as well my friend.

MikeV

KIlljoy, I would agree with Ken of course.

What I would tell you is that one of the biggest differences is that the Patriot as well as the 155 Anthem and several others use a "standard" cone (tip) which is simple and easy to replace should you need one. The Badger 100LG, Sotar 20/20, Velocity, and others use a "micro tip" which is a much smaller tip and also more delicate and easier to damage in my opinion. Your 100LG with a medium tip is going to spray very similar to the Patriot with a fine tip in my opinion. The main difference would be what I mentioned already about the tip being a simple cone tip on the Patriot and Anthem. Personally I like the simplicity of airbrushes with the cone tip design such as the Patriot, Anthem, Badger 360, 3155 Hybrid, Omni 4000, Vega 1000, etc because they are simple and have no small parts that are very delicate and must be handled with much more care like the micro tips.

My suggestion would be to try out a Patriot 105 if you are seriously considering it. If you like it better you should have no problem selling the 100LG to another modeler here on the forum.

I hope that was helpful. If you have further questions please ask and I will try and answer as best as I can.

That sounds very reasonable.  I don't, unfortunatly, know anyone locally who owns a Patriot, nor do any LHSs close to me stock them.  I don't think I'll be able to 'test-drive' before I purchase, so I am relying heavily on feedback from folks such as yourself who have experience with both brushes.  I get the feeling, from doing more reading, that the Velocity is too finely tuned for the type of spraying I do.  I mainly do military, sci-fi, and warhammer 40k vehicles that are about 1/35 scale, some smaller.

I may do as you suggest as well, and sell my 100lg.  I have 2, one has never been used.  Long story, but my family got to last year's Christmas list this year!

Thanks again!

Chris

Killjoy:

You might want to read the review of the Patriot and the Renagade Rage here:

http://airbrushtips.110mb.com/

Hey Frank, I have been using my Renegade Velocity since a little after Christmas and LOVE it.  Only thing I learned the hard way is....those fine needle tips bend WAY too easily.   Oh well, once was enough for me to learn my lesson.  Bought two new needles and put one away for "just in case".   Other than that this brush kicks some major butt!!!!  A few days after I got the brush, with no practicing (no guts no glory! ) I freehanded this camo job:

Bottom line, I am glad I got this puppy!

Brian

I have the fine needle and head on my 100LG, and I use it to spray everything but NMF and clear coats.  If I didn't already have the 100, I would almost certainly buy a Patriot.  One thing about the 100 I do not care for, is the old style of head on it.  I like the newer style they use- like the Patriot, Crescendo, 200NH, etc with the separate tip as opposed to the style with the Teflon seal- easier to clean. 

I think a 200NH, Patriot or 100LG, and a Renegade is the ultimate setup for airbrushing.  One for wide spraying, one for everyday stuff, and one for ultimate detailing. 

Brian- You did that freehand?  WOW!  Excellent work.

MikeV

What I would tell you is that one of the biggest differences is that the Patriot as well as the 155 Anthem and several others use a "standard" cone (tip) which is simple and easy to replace should you need one. The Badger 100LG, Sotar 20/20, Velocity, and others use a "micro tip" which is a much smaller tip and also more delicate and easier to damage in my opinion. Your 100LG with a medium tip is going to spray very similar to the Patriot with a fine tip in my opinion. The main difference would be what I mentioned already about the tip being a simple cone tip on the Patriot and Anthem. Personally I like the simplicity of airbrushes with the cone tip design such as the Patriot, Anthem, Badger 360, 3155 Hybrid, Omni 4000, Vega 1000, etc because they are simple and have no small parts that are very delicate and must be handled with much more care like the micro tips.

My suggestion would be to try out a Patriot 105 if you are seriously considering it. If you like it better you should have no problem selling the 100LG to another modeler here on the forum.

I hope that was helpful. If you have further questions please ask and I will try and answer as best as I can.

The plot really thickens. So, the Badger 100LG, Sotar 20/20, Velocity, and others use a "micro tip" which is a much smaller tip and also more delicate and easier to damage. They are the Badger "higher" end airbrushes. The Badger airbrushes with the cone tip design such as the Patriot, Anthem, Badger 360, 3155 Hybrid, Omni 4000, Vega 1000, etc which are simple and have no small parts are the "lower" end airbrushes.

According to Don Wheeler, the Badger 200 uses the same needle as the Renegade Rage and a micro tip too.

All along, I thought that the 3155 Hybrid and the 105 fine were an "improvement" over their 100/200 series older design. How wrong I am. You learn something everyday.

I am very glad that MikeV pointed this out because so many recent posts were talking about changing from the 100LG to the Patriot. This clarification would have stop that.

keilau

 

MikeV:

 

 

What I would tell you is that one of the biggest differences is that the Patriot as well as the 155 Anthem and several others use a "standard" cone (tip) which is simple and easy to replace should you need one. The Badger 100LG, Sotar 20/20, Velocity, and others use a "micro tip" which is a much smaller tip and also more delicate and easier to damage in my opinion. Your 100LG with a medium tip is going to spray very similar to the Patriot with a fine tip in my opinion. The main difference would be what I mentioned already about the tip being a simple cone tip on the Patriot and Anthem. Personally I like the simplicity of airbrushes with the cone tip design such as the Patriot, Anthem, Badger 360, 3155 Hybrid, Omni 4000, Vega 1000, etc because they are simple and have no small parts that are very delicate and must be handled with much more care like the micro tips.

 

My suggestion would be to try out a Patriot 105 if you are seriously considering it. If you like it better you should have no problem selling the 100LG to another modeler here on the forum.

I hope that was helpful. If you have further questions please ask and I will try and answer as best as I can.

 

 

The plot really thickens. So, the Badger 100LG, Sotar 20/20, Velocity, and others use a "micro tip" which is a much smaller tip and also more delicate and easier to damage. They are the Badger "higher" end airbrushes. The Badger airbrushes with the cone tip design such as the Patriot, Anthem, Badger 360, 3155 Hybrid, Omni 4000, Vega 1000, etc which are simple and have no small parts are the "lower" end airbrushes.

According to Don Wheeler, the Badger 200 uses the same needle as the Renegade Rage and a micro tip too.

All along, I thought that the 3155 Hybrid and the 105 fine were an "improvement" over their 100/200 series older design. How wrong I am. You learn something everyday.

I am very glad that MikeV pointed this out because so many recent posts were talking about changing from the 100LG to the Patriot. This clarification would have stop that.

Are you just trying to be a wise guy Keilau or are you looking for a real answer?

Show me, in context, where I said one was a "higher end" airbrush and another was a "lower end" model?

I sometimes wonder about your intent on these subjects.

Don't take what people say and twist it as that is how I see your posts as doing sometimes.

When I said the micro tip was "much smaller" I was talking about physical size not the hole bore in the end.

If you want a thorough discussion on the relative merits of each design then contact Ken as he is the expert on the design of these airbrushes.

keilau

The plot really thickens. So, the Badger 100LG, Sotar 20/20, Velocity, and others use a "micro tip" which is a much smaller tip and also more delicate and easier to damage. They are the Badger "higher" end airbrushes. The Badger airbrushes with the cone tip design such as the Patriot, Anthem, Badger 360, 3155 Hybrid, Omni 4000, Vega 1000, etc which are simple and have no small parts are the "lower" end airbrushes.

According to Don Wheeler, the Badger 200 uses the same needle as the Renegade Rage and a micro tip too.

All along, I thought that the 3155 Hybrid and the 105 fine were an "improvement" over their 100/200 series older design. How wrong I am. You learn something everyday.

I am very glad that MikeV pointed this out because so many recent posts were talking about changing from the 100LG to the Patriot. This clarification would have stop that.

Keilau, you're jumping to a conclusion that wasn't provided.

To be clear, the models 100, 150 and 200-20 (the other old head 200s being discontinued to the best of my knowledge, a shame) are now known as the Legend series, and share the same "old" style tip and head which consists of three parts: head, paint tip and spray regulator and uses a Teflon seal. There is a fine (which Mike is referring to as a micro tip), medium and large. Tip sizes range from .21mm to .45mm and can spray a pattern from pencil line to 2"

The Pro Production series consist of the 105 Patriot, 155 Anthem, 175 Crescendo, 200NH & 360 Universal also have a three part system, but the paint tip is a self sealing one, instead of relying on an easily crushed teflon seal. Tip sizes range from .25mm to .45mm which handles a spray pattern from fine tip felt marker to 3". The transition between fine and wide spray is quite fast, faster than the Legend series.

The Renegade series consisting of R1V Velocity, R2S Spirit, R3R Rage and the Sotar 2020 which again uses a three part system system, but in this case the Renegade nozzle head is a permanent seal welded design, whitle the Sotar uses the same Teflon seal as the Legend series. Tip sizes range from .18mm to .33mm, with a spray pattern of hairline to 1.5".

The Vega system: 1000, 2000, 6000 & Nailaire uses a similar system to the Pro series, but is not interchangeable. Also the transition from fine to narrow is more gradual than the Pro series. Tips sizes are .3mm to .5mm, with a similar felt tip to 3" range.

The Omni series: 3000, 4000, 5000, 6000 & Nailaire uses a similar tip design as the Vega, but only comes in a .25mm tip which provides technical pen to 2" pattern. The Omni also has the exclusive reversible regulator that can either use a protective collar style or "bullet nose" design which allows the artist to work visually "off the tip" for finer control.

All tip sizes and spray patterns were recently supplied to me by Ken of Badger. I am asking for clarification on the medium tip sizes, and also how they measure the liner air flow angles.

The Legend series can spray a slightly finer line, but not as wide a swath as the Pro series, which is why Ken is suggesting that the 105 is not necessarily an improvement over the 100LG. The Renegades and Sotar can spray a finer line, but not significantly more useful for the average modeler.

Opinions of users that have used both Legend and Pro series is that the Pro series is slightly easier to clean, and doesn't have the Teflon seal to worry about.

The Renegades finer tips are more prone to clogging, and additional care must be taken when thinning.

All of the fine tips are more delicate and prone to harm, but that does not mean they are the same tip!

I have not yet used any of the Pro or Renegade systems, but have heard that there can be alignment issues with the self sealing tip, while the Legend series can use up a lot of washers.

Hey, don't throw the bent needle away.  Most of the time, you can rehab it.   Because the needle is prone to bending, you can also easily bend it back into place.

Here's how.  Put the needle tip between two quarters, then gently pull while spinning it by hand.   Keep playing with it until it's relatively straight.   You can feel the the tip with your fingers and sense any bending better than your eye could.

Then use one quarter flat surface (or glass) as your grind stone, softly spin the tip until it's straight.   Again feel it with your finger tips to check whether it's still bent.   After it's straighten, get some 2000 grid sandpaper, wet it  and softly spin the needle tip in it.  Do it by hand.  You're now polishing it.  

Then to finish, put some toothpaste between your fingers and spin the tip in it.  You're putting the final polish on it.  

I rehabilitated my bent needle this way and it sprayed like new.

Bgrigg

keilau:

The plot really thickens. So, the Badger 100LG, Sotar 20/20, Velocity, and others use a "micro tip" which is a much smaller tip and also more delicate and easier to damage. They are the Badger "higher" end airbrushes. The Badger airbrushes with the cone tip design such as the Patriot, Anthem, Badger 360, 3155 Hybrid, Omni 4000, Vega 1000, etc which are simple and have no small parts are the "lower" end airbrushes.

According to Don Wheeler, the Badger 200 uses the same needle as the Renegade Rage and a micro tip too.

All along, I thought that the 3155 Hybrid and the 105 fine were an "improvement" over their 100/200 series older design. How wrong I am. You learn something everyday.

I am very glad that MikeV pointed this out because so many recent posts were talking about changing from the 100LG to the Patriot. This clarification would have stop that.

 

Keilau, you're jumping to a conclusion that wasn't provided.

As I said, you learn something new everyday. Bill, you added to what Mike did not say about the evolution of these Badger disigns.

Let's trace back. Originally, Daywalker wants to change from 100LG to an 105, but was curious why Ken said that it was not an improvement. I thought that Mike clarified that. Then, you added the prespect on the design evolution. It is not a high vs low end design. It is a new vs old design. Do I get it right this time?

MikeV

 

Are you just trying to be a wise guy Keilau or are you looking for a real answer?

Show me, in context, where I said one was a "higher end" airbrush and another was a "lower end" model?

I sometimes wonder about your intent on these subjects.

Don't take what people say and twist it as that is how I see your posts as doing sometimes.

When I said the micro tip was "much smaller" I was talking about physical size not the hole bore in the end.

If you want a thorough discussion on the relative merits of each design then contact Ken as he is the expert on the design of these airbrushes.

Mike, I am an engineer in trade and like straight answers. Daywalker wanted to "upgrade" from his old 100LG to the 105 and wondered why Ken said that it would not be an improvement in performance. When I read your original answer, it gave me the impression that the smaller tip Badger airbrushes were the better ones. Sorry that I misread your post. I wonder what you thought that my "intent" could be.

I have been asking the question about where Badger position the 105 in the market compared to the other Badger models favored by modelers since day one. I hope that you remember reading my earlier questions. I believe that Bill answered that question partially.

My confusion actually originated from the Application Chart on the Badger web site and their 1-2-3 numbering system. I don't know exactly what Ken thought. I, intuitive, thought that "1" for FINE ART must be the best. Those has a lower number in hobby/craft than in cake decorating is better than those the other way around etc. But I could be all wrong in my assumptions. 

That's pretty much it, old style vs. new style. Can't say one is better than the other, but can't see why one would want to replace the old with the new if the old is working.

Never did like that application chart! Too many empty spaces, and not clear enough explanation of why two almost identical airbrushes have different rankings for the same category. It took me a while to figure that the reason a 150-M is better than a 100LG-M for automotive had to do with the size of the paint vessel.

From what I've gathered up over the years is for model painting, just about any airbrush will do, and extremely fine airbrushes have more trouble with paint clogging. Otherwise it is personal choice and brand loyalty.

Bgrigg

That's pretty much it, old style vs. new style. Can't say one is better than the other, but can't see why one would want to replace the old with the new if the old is working...

...From what I've gathered up over the years is for model painting, just about any airbrush will do, and extremely fine airbrushes have more trouble with paint clogging. Otherwise it is personal choice and brand loyalty.

I think you summed it up well Bill, couldn't have said it better myself.

I wonder whether the paint clogging has to do with the paint brand rather than the brush.  Prior to getting the Velocity, I was a little warry.  But after spraying Tamiya acrylics for about 3 months, I've not had any clogging issues at all. This was with both the .21 and .33 needle.

I did have some slight issue with Model Master acrylics.  It dries a little fast and rock hard, and I did have a slight issue with that paint drying on the needle causing some irregular spraying patterns. Cleaning up Model Master acrylics was also interesting with me having to resort to lacquer thinner.

I wonder whether some paint brands are kinder to particular paintbrush brands... rather than smaller needles giving people more problems.

Bgrigg

 

The Pro Production series consist of the 105 Patriot, 155 Anthem, 175 Crescendo, 200NH & 360 Universal also have a three part system, but the paint tip is a self sealing one, instead of relying on an easily crushed teflon seal. Tip sizes range from .25mm to .45mm which handles a spray pattern from fine tip felt marker to 3". The transition between fine and wide spray is quite fast, faster than the Legend series.

Nice summary, Bill.  I am curious about the tip sizes you quote for the Patriot and Anthem though.  I measured the inside diameter of both with a 25 power microscope and calibrated reticle and got 0.020 inches for the Patriot and 0.030 inches for the Anthem.  That works out to about 0.5mm and 0.75mm.  Not that it really matters much.

Don

brickshooter

I wonder whether the paint clogging has to do with the paint brand rather than the brush.  Prior to getting the Velocity, I was a little warry.  But after spraying Tamiya acrylics for about 3 months, I've not had any clogging issues at all. This was with both the .21 and .33 needle.

I did have some slight issue with Model Master acrylics.  It dries a little fast and rock hard, and I did have a slight issue with that paint drying on the needle causing some irregular spraying patterns. Cleaning up Model Master acrylics was also interesting with me having to resort to lacquer thinner.

I wonder whether some paint brands are kinder to particular paintbrush brands... rather than smaller needles giving people more problems.

All of the fine line airbrushes are really illustrator brushes, rather than scale modeler brushes, and are designed more for inks, than pigmented paints, hence the concern. Properly thinned and strained paint would be less problematic. There would certainly be brand differences in pigment sizes. There can also be size differences between different colors of the same brand.

I've found Tamiya to be the least problematic for airbrushing, though they lack a breadth of colors. MM Acryl has the breadth, but also has more problems, at least IMHO.

keilau

 

 

 

Mike, I am an engineer in trade and like straight answers. Daywalker wanted to "upgrade" from his old 100LG to the 105 and wondered why Ken said that it would not be an improvement in performance. When I read your original answer, it gave me the impression that the smaller tip Badger airbrushes were the better ones. Sorry that I misread your post. I wonder what you thought that my "intent" could be.

I have been asking the question about where Badger position the 105 in the market compared to the other Badger models favored by modelers since day one. I hope that you remember reading my earlier questions. I believe that Bill answered that question partially.

My confusion actually originated from the Application Chart on the Badger web site and their 1-2-3 numbering system. I don't know exactly what Ken thought. I, intuitive, thought that "1" for FINE ART must be the best. Those has a lower number in hobby/craft than in cake decorating is better than those the other way around etc. But I could be all wrong in my assumptions. 

Sorry about the misunderstanding Keilau I guess I took your post in the wrong context. My apologies.

Here is what I am talking about when I mention "Micro-tips" in these photos I did a couple of years back.

I did not have the Patriot or the Velocity at that time so their tips are not included in the photos.

Just for fun here are the needles as well:

The Sotar 20/20, Badger 100, and Iwata HP-CS in the photos are all micro-tips whereas all the others are often referred to as a cone. Bill posted some good info from Ken, thanks Bill that was informative, and I think that sums it up as I did not have that info with me. Whether a mico-tip is any smaller as far as bore size goes I am not sure as it doesn't really look like it just looking at them. Maybe Ken could shed some light on why they are still used and the cone tips are not in the illustration types of airbrushes?