Badger Renegade Velocity- WOW!

Don Wheeler

Nice summary, Bill.  I am curious about the tip sizes you quote for the Patriot and Anthem though.  I measured the inside diameter of both with a 25 power microscope and calibrated reticle and got 0.020 inches for the Patriot and 0.030 inches for the Anthem.  That works out to about 0.5mm and 0.75mm.  Not that it really matters much.

Don

Don, the tip sizes were lifted verbatim from a document Ken at Badger sent to me for use in the user guide. I am waiting for some clarification of specific sizes for the medium paint tips.

I also find Tamiya the most consistent and least problematic.  I also shoot Vallejo model air, and Golden's airbrush line works like a dream, but it is not a color line for military models.  I love MM Acryl's color choices, but cringe when I have to spray it, and invariably my wife hears cursing from the garage!

I am less concerned about the diameter of the tip of the Patriot vs my medium 100LG as to whether the 'new style' tip makes/allows the paint to flow more smoothly an consistently.

Mike, those are very interesting images. Can I use them for the user guide?

I notice you left the tip attached to the head of the 100 series. The tip is removable from the head, though I've never had to do that! I also notice that the lone Iwata looks to have a micro tip mounted on the cone.

I suspect the micro-tip is less likely to have alignment issues than the cones.

Killjoy

I also find Tamiya the most consistent and least problematic.  I also shoot Vallejo model air, and Golden's airbrush line works like a dream, but it is not a color line for military models.  I love MM Acryl's color choices, but cringe when I have to spray it, and invariably my wife hears cursing from the garage!

I am less concerned about the diameter of the tip of the Patriot vs my medium 100LG as to whether the 'new style' tip makes/allows the paint to flow more smoothly an consistently.

 

Killjoy, I suspect you wouldn't notice a difference between a 100LG and a Patriot when it comes to paint flow. That would have more to do with the paint and thinning, than the airbrush.

From what I've read, you might want to consider a Vega 1000 or Omni 4000 as the internal angle of the paint tip allows for a more gradual spray adjustment and more deliberate spray control, when changing from a fine to wide spray pattern.

[quote user="Bgrigg"

Killjoy, I suspect you wouldn't notice a difference between a 100LG and a Patriot when it comes to paint flow. That would have more to do with the paint and thinning, than the airbrush.

From what I've read, you might want to consider a Vega 1000 or Omni 4000 as the internal angle of the paint tip allows for a more gradual spray adjustment and more deliberate spray control, when changing from a fine to wide spray pattern.

[/quote]

Hmmm...had not considered a T&C airbrush, but I guess they are very similar to Badger, right?  I do have a 155 anthem, and very much like how it sprays, but don't like using siphon feed much anymore.  I guess I may want to do a bit more research.

Well, if you like how the Anthem sprays, then the Patriot will be very close, maybe slightly better as the gravity feed will require less air pressure. The Vega or Omni series use the same sort of head design as the Anthem/Patriot. But we are talking a matter of a few degrees. I don't know if I would commit $70 to finding out!

Since I already have the following: 100LG-M; 100LG-F; 150-M & 200-20, I think my airbrush buying days are over, unless I discover I have a long lost wealthy and dead relative, or win the lotto! What I would like is a 200G body, so I could convert my 200-20 to a gravity feed!

According to Badger's Airbrush 101 (page 6) the 105 Patriot and Vega 1000 are interchangeable for use. Since you already have the 155, I would get the Patriot since they share parts.

Edited to correct stupid typo!

Bgrigg

Mike, those are very interesting images. Can I use them for the user guide?

Sure Bill, go ahead. I wished the second one of the tips was clearer as the depth of field was not good so some of the tips are a little blurred.

I should do a new photo with all of the airbrushes I have including the Patriot and the Velocity but I don't think it would really add anything other than including all of the Badger airbrush line for the most part.

I notice you left the tip attached to the head of the 100 series. The tip is removable from the head, though I've never had to do that! I also notice that the lone Iwata looks to have a micro tip mounted on the cone.

Yes I thought it was easier to do that way as those tips are easily damaged or lost if you drop them.

Yes the Iwata HP-CS Eclipse does have a micro-tip as well.

I suspect the micro-tip is less likely to have alignment issues than the cones.

That may be so Bill, I am not sure. From what I have been told the alignment of the needle in the tip is not that critical as it does not have to be perfectly centered in order to spray well.

Killjoy

......and Golden's airbrush line works like a dream, but it is not a color line for military models. 

Very vibrant, rich colors for sure! I miss her artwork and talking with her.

Here is a link to her life's work page that her mom put up. 

http://ginagartistry.com/index_files/page0003.htm

I love MM Acryl's color choices, but cringe when I have to spray it, and invariably my wife hears cursing from the garage!

I have to believe that if Goldens ever chose to make a small line of military colors (OD green, khaki, dunklegarb, Panzer grey, Nato Green etc) they would sell faster than they could make 'em!  Sure, you have to prime, unlike Tamiya they have NO (zero) adhesion to bare styrene, but I love them nonetheless and use them as base coats or for dioramas whenever I can.

Bgrigg

Since I already have the following: 100LG-M; 100LG-M; 150-M & 200-20, I think my airbrush buying days are over,

You stuttered there Bill.

I don't think I really need anymore either except maybe unless I can fill in the missing ones for a complete collection of Badger airbrushes.

Killjoy

I also find Tamiya the most consistent and least problematic.  I also shoot Vallejo model air, and Golden's airbrush line works like a dream, but it is not a color line for military models.  I love MM Acryl's color choices, but cringe when I have to spray it, and invariably my wife hears cursing from the garage!

I have not used Vallejo. How true is your comment about the Tamiya acrylic and MM.

I am less concerned about the diameter of the tip of the Patriot vs my medium 100LG as to whether the 'new style' tip makes/allows the paint to flow more smoothly an consistently.

From what I heard, it not the nozzle tip diameter, but the needle taper that makes the difference. I have an Iwata Eclipse HP-CS and a Badger 105 Fine. The Iwata needle taper is twice as long as the Badger fine needle. I like the gentler (slower transition) and linear pull of the Iwata trigger better than the Patriot. You may want to try an Iwata if that is what you are looking for.

The CS has a 0.35 mm nozzle and is a little more sensitive to paint thinning than the Patriot, but not bad once you get the feel of how much to thin.

MikeV

 

Bgrigg:

 

Since I already have the following: 100LG-M; 100LG-M; 150-M & 200-20, I think my airbrush buying days are over,

 

 

You stuttered there Bill.

Meant to say 100LG-M; 100LG-F!

edited the previous post to read correctly.

keilau

From what I heard, it not the nozzle tip diameter, but the needle taper that makes the difference.

Bgrigg

Meant to say 100LG-M; 100LG-F!

edited the previous post to read correctly.

So you have two Bill? Why not just change the tip and needle when you need the fine one?

MikeV

I have seen people put a medium tip on an airbrush with a fine needle to get a different result. That is pretty much what was done with the 3155 hybrid airbrush.

 

But do NOT try to do it the other way around, unless you want to replace your fine tip!

MikeV

 

Bgrigg:

Meant to say 100LG-M; 100LG-F!

 

edited the previous post to read correctly.

 

 

So you have two Bill? Why not just change the tip and needle when you need the fine one?

Funny thing is, I bought the first 100LG from a fellow on the forum, along with all three sizes of head assemblies, to augment my 150 with the medium tip. Then I tripped across the Badger Garage sale and bought another 100LG with the fine head as I couldn't turn up the opportunity to buy the 100LG for essentially half price. I picked up an Omni 4000 at the same time, but ended up selling that one to a friend. I kept with Badger so I had parts on hand. I find it a lot easier to swap the airbrush, than the tip!

MikeV

Bgrigg: 

I notice you left the tip attached to the head of the 100 series. The tip is removable from the head, though I've never had to do that! I also notice that the lone Iwata looks to have a micro tip mounted on the cone.

Yes I thought it was easier to do that way as those tips are easily damaged or lost if you drop them.

Yes the Iwata HP-CS Eclipse does have a micro-tip as well.

Mike and Bill, I need some clarification. The Iwata airbrushes have a nozzle that looks like a micro-tip from the High-line and up, including, Micron, Kustom etc. The Iwata Revolution and Eclipse series of airbrushes use a cone nozzle. Here is how Medea describe them:

The drop-in hardened steel nozzles are self-centering for perfect alignment and quick, easy assembly. High-paint flow, coupled with ultimate control through the entire spray range, is Iwata’s trademark with the Eclipse style of airbrushes. Now, with the new interchangeable 0.35-mm high-flow nozzle/needle combination, even finer detail and control can be achieved.

Eclipse Nozzle/Head Assembly

I suspect the micro-tip is less likely to have alignment issues than the cones.

That may be so Bill, I am not sure. From what I have been told the alignment of the needle in the tip is not that critical as it does not have to be perfectly centered in order to spray well.

Harder & Steenbeck, Iwata and Paasche all made a big deal about their "self centering" nozzle design. I don't know how it works nor if it works as advertised at all. Just thinking in term of physics, I would tend to think that the proper centering of the needle in the nozzle is very important to atomization. It is hard to believe that the needle alignment is NOT THAT critical. I need some expert explanation in airbrush engineering here.

Well, I'm certainly no expert, just opinionated!

I also noticed that Iwata have both a micro tip, and the self adjusting cone. Best of both worlds, perhaps?

I can see how atomization won't be affected by a misaligned needle, but wouldn't the spray pattern be affected?

keilau

The drop-in hardened steel nozzles are self-centering for perfect alignment and quick, easy assembly. High-paint flow, coupled with ultimate control through the entire spray range, is Iwata’s trademark with the Eclipse style of airbrushes. Now, with the new interchangeable 0.35-mm high-flow nozzle/needle combination, even finer detail and control can be achieved.

 

Harder & Steenbeck, Iwata and Paasche all made a big deal about their "self centering" nozzle design. I don't know how it works nor if it works as advertised at all. Just thinking in term of physics, I would tend to think that the proper centering of the needle in the nozzle is very important to atomization. It is hard to believe that the needle alignment is NOT THAT critical. I need some expert explanation in airbrush engineering here.

This is not expert explanation, but I'll tell you what I think.  When they say self centering, they mean centering the tip inside the regulator opening, not the needle inside the tip.  I suspect that the area around the tip is more critical to good atomization and spray pattern than the area around the needle.

I remember reading in one of the forums where a guy questioned the Iwata help line about the needle not being centered, and they told him it didn't matter that much.

Don

Bgrigg

Don Wheeler:

Nice summary, Bill.  I am curious about the tip sizes you quote for the Patriot and Anthem though.  I measured the inside diameter of both with a 25 power microscope and calibrated reticle and got 0.020 inches for the Patriot and 0.030 inches for the Anthem.  That works out to about 0.5mm and 0.75mm.  Not that it really matters much.

Don

 

Don, the tip sizes were lifted verbatim from a document Ken at Badger sent to me for use in the user guide. I am waiting for some clarification of specific sizes for the medium paint tips.

Is the document that states the tip sizes a Badger trade secret document? Can the original copy be made available to other Badger users?

Since Ken sent it to you, I presume that it is not posted on the Badger web site.

Since he sent it to me for use on the user guide, I don't think it's a trade secret. PM me your email addy and I'll forward it to anyone who wants it.

All these tech are getting me dizzy.  All I know is that the Velocity has changed the way I spray.  With the Cresendo, I'll put 2 layers on a surface.  3 at most if I'm is the right mood.

With the Velocity, I'll put 4-6 layers of different shades on a surface.  And more if I need to since each layer is so thin and dries almost immediately.   The result is that the eye sees 4-6 shades of the same color. I think this is what the Euros have been doing for years and we Americans are starting to catch up.

In addition, I'm not afraid to screw up the paint job.  Because each paint layer is so thin, I can just spray over any mistakes without having to sand the painted surface down.   I think this is called accidental pre-shading.  The fixed accident often looks better than a perfectly sprayed spot.

In the end, spraying is actually more "fun" than handbrushing.  This is something I thought I would never say.  Anyways, I really like the Velocity.   And nowadays, I have a tendency to rush through a built job asap so that I can fool around with airbrushing.

brickshooter

All these tech are getting me dizzy.  All I know is that the Velocity has changed the way I spray.  With the Cresendo, I'll put 2 layers on a surface.  3 at most if I'm is the right mood.

With the Velocity, I'll put 4-6 layers of different shades on a surface.  And more if I need to since each layer is so thin and dries almost immediately.   The result is that the eye sees 4-6 shades of the same color. I think this is what the Euros have been doing for years and we Americans are starting to catch up.

In addition, I'm not afraid to screw up the paint job.  Because each paint layer is so thin, I can just spray over any mistakes without having to sand the painted surface down.   I think this is called accidental pre-shading.  The fixed accident often looks better than a perfectly sprayed spot.

In the end, spraying is actually more "fun" than handbrushing.  This is something I thought I would never say.  Anyways, I really like the Velocity.   And nowadays, I have a tendency to rush through a built job asap so that I can fool around with airbrushing.

Reading through your post, I thought that you were describing the different experience of using the Iwata HP-CS vs. that of the Badger Patriot. How is the Rage needle in Velocity compared to the Cresendo?

I presume that you also thin the paint differently using the Cresendo vs. using the Velocity. It took me a while to get used to the Iwata CS and the fact that I have to spray more layers of thin, misty paint compared to other AB. It took me even longer to like how this thin, misty layers of paint work.

This is the sort of opinion I'm looking for, for use in the airbrush user guide. Can I use this?

Keilau,

I've not used the Cresendo for a while.  But from memory, the Cresendo feels like it throws gobbles of paint onto a model.   I think it was made for t-shirt or extremely large surface work.  So one can't really compare using a Rage setup versus the Crescendo.   Seems like the Crescendo is an layperson setup whereas the Renegade series is a professional setup.    But with the price of the Renegades dropping to about $100, I can't see any justification is staying with the Crescendo.

But as I recalled, the Crescendo will spray almost anything whether or not properly thinned. I think I was even able to spray without thinner.  With the Velocity, I'm using a ton of thinner. But usually eyeing by sight rather than any hard rules.

The only thing that I've to adjust for is to use a primer before & seal after from now on.   I noticed that the paint easily chips off.  I suspect it's because of the thinner layers.

brickshooter

I've not used the Cresendo for a while.  But from memory, the Cresendo feels like it throws gobbles of paint onto a model.   I think it was made for t-shirt or extremely large surface work. 

Yes the Crescendo came out as a competitor and an upgrade to the Paasche VL which many old school T-shirt artists used.

Seems like the Crescendo is an layperson setup whereas the Renegade series is a professional setup.   

They are two different types of airbrushes so I wouldn't even consider comparing them.

The Crescendo can use a heavy, medium or fine needle as well so it is versatile but it is an older design and as you said it was designed mainly as a T-shirt airbrush although it will do many things very well.

I find this thread very informative.  I was leaning toward a Velocity to complement my Iwata HP-CS, but now I am seriously considering the Patriot.

Go with the Velocity for detailed work.   Seems like you would be duplicating spraying patterns with the Patriot and HP-CS.

brickshooter

Go with the Velocity for detailed work.   Seems like you would be duplicating spraying patterns with the Patriot and HP-CS.

 

I agree.

brickshooter

Go with the Velocity for detailed work.   Seems like you would be duplicating spraying patterns with the Patriot and HP-CS.

I have the Iwata HP-CS AND the Badger Patriot. They are completely different airbrush. When you put the parts side-by-side, the CS nozzle is about 1/2 or less the area of the Patriot nozzle hole. The CS needle tapper is twice as long as the Patriot "fine" needle tapper. The Iwata CS can be a fine detail airbrush and it is sensitive to paint thinning and cleaning. It is very similar to how you (brickshooter) described the Velocity earlieer on this page.

I like the more linear control (slower transition) of the Iwata CS. But it makes me thin the paint more (compared to the Patriot) and have to spray more layers of thin, misty paint to get the finish I like. It took some getting use to. On the other hand, the Patriot is a much more forgiving airbrush. I can spray the MM Acrylic unthinned (not recommended for cleaning reason) and, in all case, lay down a solid layer of color much more quickly. It still have plenty of detail for pre-shading or free-hand camo in modeling, but the feel and control is completely different from the Iwata CS.

I don't remember reading a direct comparison between the Iwata HP-CS and the Badger Velocity by the same user at this forum yet even though brickshooter's experience with the Velocity and mine with the CS sound so similar.

I don't have a Velocity. I sure hope that Hutch will get one and compare it to the Iwata HP-CS that he already has.