Imai Golden Hind 1/70

I don't intend criticism of anybody else; we all have different ways of looking at our hobby (or profession, as the case may be). But personally I've never gotten interested in selling models. One reason is that I work so slowly that we aren't in any imminent danger of running out of space. Another is that I don't like deadlines. (I've had enough of them in my day job over the past 40 years - and in school before that.)

I used to take in model restoration projects, when I was a starving museum curator, but I never enjoyed it much. Quite a few years ago I decided I wanted to build models for fun and for no other reason.

Another reason I don't want to be in the model building business, frankly, is the wild variation in the prices for which models get sold. Yeah, $800 sounds like a lot of money. But if you divide that number by the number of hours you spent on the model, you're getting far less than minimum wage.

On the other hand, there does exist a small classification of people who pay huge sums of money for models. Back when I'd just finished my 1/128-scale model of the Hancock, the gentleman who ran the ship model gallery at Mystic Seaport tried to get me interested in letting him sell it for me. He said he figured he could get at least $15,000 (that's 1983 dollars) for it. Once I got done picking myself off the floor, I asked him what his commission would be. Answer: 40%. I guessed the model had about 1500 hours in it. I couldn't become a professional modeler for that kind of money. After thinking about it for quite a while, I decided to turn him down. My thinking was that, though I was far from a wealthy man at the time (I'd just gotten my teaching job, for $20,000 1983 dollars per year), the time might well come in the future when I'd need that money more than I did then.

Since I've been married, and raising two stepkids, there have been several moments when my wife and I have said "maybe it's time to sell the Hancock." But it's never happened; the model still sits in our den. I confess I've become pretty attached to it (as I suspect some people in this Forum have figured out).

A few months back I talked with my wife about willing it to a certain museum. Her response - to my surprise - was "not unless you can set it up so the museum doesn't get it while I'm alive." That one knocked me out just as effectively as the offer from Mystic did.

At any rate, there are dealers who routinely sell models for tens of thousands of dollars. I always wonder whether the people who buy them really appreciate, or understand, them. Some do. The Kriegstein brothers, owners of the famous Kriegstein Collection, give their models the same tender loving care that the best museums do. Others who play the game (I know of at least one of Donald McNarry's patrons who falls in this category) buy them because they're pretty and they're expensive - and know absolutely nothing about the ships or ship modeling. (The guy I referred to in the previous sentence had trouble pronouncing the names of the ships.) I've got better things to do than be patronized by people like that.

To each his/her own. I don't suggest that there's anything wrong with selling models - especially if you've got a space problem (or if you're now so sick of looking at that model, with all the mistakes you made ten or fifteen years ago, that you just plain want to get rid of it). But the stuff I build - and am proud of - isn't going to leave the Tilley house while I'm around.

Interesting points.  It's ice to see a wife so supportive of your efforts.  However.....I too have several models I'll probably never sell..for similar reasons...on the other  hand Many years ago I did spend a stint of time as a professional ship model builder.....and I sold every model I built...many on commission.

Dollar to time equations in this instance are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned because I derive so much enjoyment that that in of itself is payment..  I also build and sell telescopes.........tackling with the same issues plague me there as well.  In the end it is all still STUFF that no one takes with them when they check out any way.....so Se'Lavea..    Or however that is spelled.

This Hobbie empowers you to do what ever you will, for yourself.....fun fun fun.

My 2 nickles.

Rob

Dave,

If I had half your talent and were ever in a position to sell one of my models ... I WOULD!!

Your reasoning, clearing out space for more kits to work on and display, is a valid one. Also it can't hurt that you'd have a little extra $ to do with as you please.

Rob's philosophy is closest to mine in that it's the enjoyment of the building process that counts ... you can't take it with you is true of anything in these multi-universes () so SELL, SELL, SELL!

Since this hobby is also a learning process, and the time we have in this universe is limited (Rob, Here's were C'est la vie comes in ), I suggest that we keep moving on. Remember:

To your point, Tilley.

Yes, I agree, building models on commission is for me a sure recipe to insanity, even if I improved my skills enough to be able to get any customers,

This is my hobby. I have enough other deadlines in life, and the $ aren't there.

But, if someone has a model they built for fun and they don't really like or want it anymore, do sell it.

I used to throw away all my old airplane models while I was developing my (basic) skills, and I don't regret it because I have some pictures.

If it's a good model, why not?

Concerning the Le Soleil Royal I sold  . . . that was back in the days before I really knew all the problems in the kit and how to correct them. My craftsmanship was good, my research skills were lacking.  Anyway, I wasn't happy with the model, the buyer was a regular customer in the hobby shop in which I worked part time, and he said that he did not care about the accuracy of the ship. He liked it because it was "pretty".  So, I sold it, bought a new one for which my skills were much improved, and I have the ship on display in my basement museum. I am far, far happier with my newer version.

I met someone who, like me, had accumulated hundreds of ship kits throughout his navy career but had built none of them because he was afraid of breakage during transfers.  He was an aficionado of the HECEPOB kits.  So, after retiring from the USN, he tended to his hobby, and he ended up selling some through some store in Boston.  Before too long, he was contacted directly by various businesses who paid very good money for his ships.  To make a long story short, he quit his job and worked full time on his ship models, selling them when he needed money.  His hobby became his job, and he lost interest. He built ship models but he did not enjoy it.

I suppose it depends on what you want, but I am happier keeping this as my beloved hobby!

Bill

John,

I am intrigued by your comments concerning the hull below the waterline being coated by a tar-based substance that would logically be very dark in color. I have often thought that, while state-owned ships of the Elizabethan period might be maintained with the traditional tallow-based coating, less wealthy owners might opt for a tar-based coating that would be dark in color. I would imagine that the texture would be thick, perhaps unevenly applied, perhaps even "messy" in appearance. I am curious about any further thoughts you might have.

My oldest grandson, aged 9, has been intrigued with the Mayflower for several years.  We have started building the Revell kit, and I am teaching him as we go.  Your comments here have led me to want to try this approach to that ship.  Your thoughts would be much appreciated!

Bill

My usual first stop in trying to deal with such issues is the Conway's History of the Ship series. I just checked the relevant volume, Cogs, Caravels, and Galleons: The Sailing Ship, 1000-1650, and found no reference to bottom treatments. So far as I know there's scarcely any hard contemporary evidence on the subject. So I'll have to fall back on that most unreliable of sources, my senile memory.

I've read in several places (don't ask me where) that there were several common bottom treatments prior to the introduction of copper sheathing. I've never read that there was any clear chronological sequence to them; some or all of them probably were in use at the same time. One was a particularly repulsive-sounding concoction containing tar, sulfur, and horse hair (presumably in the hope that shipworms would find it disgusting and indigestible). Another was white lead paint; another was tallow - perhaps applied on top of the white lead. (I imagine tallow applied directly to wood would look like a semi-transparent grease; I figure slapping it on top of a coat of white paint would result in a slightly creamy off-white color.) 

I don't know which of those treatments would be more expensive.

Some of the oldest surviving English ship models have white bottoms. Whether that was an accurate depiction of reality or a model builder's convention I don't know. (A modeler with any aesthetic sense would be turned off by the thought of reproducing that tar/sulfur/horse hair mix.)

There are four genuine surviving ships from the period covered by the Conway book: the Gokstad ship, the Oseberg ship, the Mary Rose, and the Wasa. The two Viking hulls clearly were unpainted except, perhaps, for some decorative carved work. Fred Hocker's book on the Wasa states quite emphatically that no waterline is marked on her, and the wood on her bottom looks just like that of the upper works I've read quite a bit about the Mary Rose, and I've never bumped into any reference to paint or other treatment on her hull.

The bottoms of hulls are rarely visible in old master marine paintings (e.g., those of the Van de Veldes), but I think I've seen some that appear to be white.

Brian Lavery's book, The Construction and Fitting of English Ships of War, says that by the early eighteenth century two coatings were in use: "black stuff" and "dark stuff." Apparently they were about the same as the two I mentioned earlier. Lavery says that "black stuff" rarely shows up in models, but he seems to think it was used more often than "white stuff" in reality. And he suggests that some ships may have had "black stuff" on their bottoms, with a band of white (for looks, I guess) just above and below the waterline.

I think this is one of those questions that don't have good answers. The good news is that you can paint the bottom of your model whatever color you like (though I'd discourage pink and purple), and it's highly unlikely that anybody can say definitively that it's wrong.

I'm afraid I haven't helped much.

John,

AS usual, it is a pleasure peering into your brain!  The question now turns to finding scale horse hair . . . hmmmm!

Bill

Well, I guess you could collect what's left on your razor every morning for a few days....Ooops, sorry, forgot.

Well, I could use the hair trapped in my bath tub drain, but I will never shave my beard!

Well, now this thread has descended from the merely disgusting to the truly repugnant.

John,

It's all meant in good humor!

Bill

Now my strange brain is trying to come up with other model applications for what's found in bathtub drains. Next: belly button lint.

Model car enthusiasts use a product called "Funny Fur." It comes in little plastic shaker bottles. Shake some of that stuff onto the freshly-painted bottom of a sailing ship, and I'll bet you could create a surface that would make any self-respecting 1/96-scale shipworm turn up his nose.

Just had another idea! The inspiration came from a TV commercial. Chia Pets come with little bottles of some concoction that grows moss (or whatever that stuff is). Why not paiint the underwater hull of the model with it?

Oops. That just may be the worst idea anybody's ever had since the night Adolf Hitler's father said to Adolf Hitler's mother, "Come on upstairs, Brunhilde, I'm feeling frisky this evening." I'd better shut this thing down and go to bed.

John,

All kidding aside, the original question is still valid concerning the texture of that "dark stuff" used to coat the lower hull on those ships so treated.  Somehow, airbrush purity doesn't seem to fit the bill.  So now, my brain is turning over just how to create a convincing concoction.  I guess that it is time to start experimenting!

Bill

John had earlier mentioned looking at the replica of the Susan Constant. I also looked at the Mayflower II for painting ideas.  However, we cannot neglect looking at the replica of the Golden Hinde in London, which is much darker than the American replicas.  Granted, these are replicas, but they do convey a sense of the original. Check out www.goldenhinde.com to see what I mean.

Bill

For my money, a beautiful, uniform, airbrushed finish isn't appropriate for the bottom of any ship - unless you're building one of those stylized, full-hull models that don't purport to be realistic. Even a modern warship starts to show different hues and beat-up spots on the bottom, even before it's launched.

I visualize that tar/horsehair/sulfur mix as a very dark grey - sort of like Lufwaffe Schwarzgrau. If I were doing it, I'd try dry brushing it with various shades of grey, green and brown - all of them pretty dark.

Show us some pictures of what you come up with. I haven't seen many models that try for that effect.

Hey, waitasec....Did John just bust out a joke?!?

Well done, sir!

"Regarding your choice of the Soleil Royal - no comment. I've shot off my mouth about that one enough."

John,

I remember your once stating that one can build a decent model out of anything, including a beef bone."  Surely, the Heller Le Soleil Royal is at least as good as a beef bone . . ..  ; )

Bill

Bill - Yeah, I suppose that kit is as good a starting point for a serious scale model as a beef bone would be. But the beef bone would be cheaper.

I hope it's understood that that beef bone analogy was semi-serious. An untold number of POWs in the Napoleonic Wars made some spectacular models out of bones. (The only sizable collection of them in the US, so far as I know, is the one at the Naval Academy Museum - a place of pilgrimage for ship model fans.)

Dave - Whazza mattuh? You got something against chia ship models?

John,

Those bone models are beautiful!  And, I wanted to bring a smile to your face.  After all, I did get you to say something somewhat positive about that kit!  Merry Christmas, everyone!

Bill

Thanks, rdiaz!

Let's see if I can explain how the pedestals work without confusing you :)

So, once I got the hull halves assembled (but before the decks go in), I drilled tiny holes at the proper spacing in the bottom of the keel, then gradually used larger bits until the holes were wide enough to accommodate the screws (I think they are #8 machine screws)...the screws need to be long enough to reach from the bottom of the display board, through the pedestals, and up into the inside of the hull with ~1/2" length to spare.

In the hull, I took a couple of 1/4" thick wood squares (a couple inches square or so), drilled holes in them for the screws to fit through, and put washers and nuts on to hold the pedestals tight....kinda like a sandwich!

It's true, the keel is way too thin to hold the model up with any stability, so I use long screws through wooden blocks to hold it all together...the top *forks* of the pedestals are held tightly up against the hull on either side of the keel, and the small wooden blocks inside push down on the hull, and that's what keeps everything pinched.

Hope that makes sense!

Yeah, that makes sense, thank you very much! Guess the danger of snapping the keel would be even less if I make carefully aligned "half holes" on each part before they are put together?

My idea was indeed to fit wood or styrene blocks inside the hull for the screws to bite into; but the part I'm most afraid of is drilling through the thin plastic keel with my spiral hand drill, even if I start with tiny holes and then go up in size.  The width of remaining styrene around the holes might be less than 1 mm, quite thin. I guess if I mess up I can always fix with some putty...

It's true, the keel thickness is likely not equal to the width of the screws...I've had slight *chipping* when the bits get to right size, but fortunately it was contained within the area that was covered by the pedestals forks, so any missing keel material is invisible (at least on my models)...

I'm sure you'll have no trouble getting good results.

Thanks David. The idea of using long nails, or brass or steel rod rather than screws, so I can drill smaller holes, has also crossed my mind - that might work to avoid chipping.

How about epoxying small nuts inside the hull along the keel to accept machine screws?Should work.

That could do, but 2 mm screws that are at least 5 cm long are hard, if not impossible to find. Anything with bigger diameter and chances of keel snapping or chipping will increase tremendously. I'll see what I can come up with. I'd start a build log but I'm afraid my lack of skill would make it rather uninteresting :p

Thanks!

They have them a Lowe's in the special hardware sections.

There's really no great trick to drilling a hole in the bottom of a plastic hull - though the whole job will be a lot easier if you do it before or right after gluing the hull halves together. Start with a small drill - say 1/16". Use an electric drill or, better yet, a Dremel tool; the bit is less likely to crack the plastic if it's spinning fast (though not fast enough to melt the plastic). With a small hole in place you can enlarge it with a larger bit, a file, or even an Xacto knife.

It's vital that the screws (or whatever else you're using to secure the pedestals) have something solid to go into. Last time I had such a project I super-glued a pair of nuts to the underside of the deck (lining them up carefully with the holes in the keel). I stuck pieces of plastic to the deck next to the nuts, to make absolutely sure the latter wouldn't come loose. If that's not practical for your model, Dave's idea of sticking a piece of wood inside the hull will work just as well (provided you don't intend to take the screws out too often). Just make sure the wood is really stuck.

Another problem you're going to have, if you use commercially-available pedestals, is that the slots in them will be too wide. You can glue little pieces of brass, styrene, or wood (the harder the better) to the side of the keel to make the pedestals fit. When they're trimmed to length, they'll barely be noticeable.

Hope that helps a little. Good luck.

Good advice, John.

And at the end of the day whatever happens down there is usually not too noticeable.