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Imai Golden Hind 1/70

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, May 5, 2014 7:09 PM

One thing you need to think about, Dave, is the way the sails are furled.  During this period each yard was normally just about half the length of the yard below it.  So the foot of the sail would be twice as wide as the head - and furling the sail up as a bundle on the upper yard wouldn't work.

The solution was to gather the clews (the lower corners of the sail) into a bundle lashed to the heel of the top mast.  The sail was bundled up into sort of a T shape, with the top of the T being the upper yard.  The clews, with the sheets and clewlines attached to them, stuck out from the bottom of the bundle.  Ina small ship the topsail yard sat on, or a couple of feet above, the railing of the top.

I'm working with my phone, which doesn't let me post pictures from the web directly to the Forum.  Next time I'm at the desktop computer Ill find some pictures that explain how a furled sixteenth-century sail looks.  The process isn't really difficult.  If you google some pictures of the "Jamestown ships," the Mayflower II, and the Elizabeth 2 (not to be confused with the QE2), you'll get the idea.

The golden rule in making furled sails:  don't make the bundles too fat!  The bundles for the topsails should be just about the diameter of the topsail yards.

Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, May 6, 2014 5:02 PM

Thanks, John.

I did notice how narrow the topsail yards are, compared to the main yards...with my previous model sail furling (the Santa Maria...seems so long ago!) I actually just used a shorter "sail" to begin with, so when it was furled, it wouldn't have that sleeping bag look...it seemed to work okay.

But I don't know what you mean about the T shape of the 16th century furling style...I looked up some google pics, but I didn't see anything like what you described...do you have any specific ideas of where I can look for reference, in case I decide to try that avenue?

Thanks!

Dave

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 1:49 AM

Dave,

Here's a painting by Willem Van de Velde the Elder - from a later period, but the principle is the same:

bmagblog.files.wordpress.com/.../lenoxorhamptoncourt-scaled1000.jpg

You can see how most of the topsail is bundled up into a vertical bundle, with the clews sticking out.  Sort of like two letter J's, one of them backwards, stuck together.

Here's another one: 

http://www.topofart.com/images/artists/Willem_van_de_Velde_the_Younger/paintings/velde027.jpg

Notice also how thin the furled sail is when it's bundled to the yard.

Here's a good shot of the replica Susan Constant and Godspeed, at Jamestown:

http://www.williamsburgprivatetours.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/jamestown.jpg

If you look carefully you can see that the topsails are furled just like the ones in the Van de Velde paintings.  And the furled courses are bundled tightly to the yards.  (These ship, incidentally, have a couple of rigging features that aren't authentic, and were added in the name of safety:  they have jackstays and footropes on their yards, neither of which had been invented at the time of the actual ships.)

One of the most common mistakes among sailing ship modelers is to make the bundles of furled sails too fat.  If you're walking up the pier behind one of the Jamestown ships, you'll have trouble seeing that the furled sail is there; the bundle is, if anything, smaller than the yard.

The Jamestown picture shows one big reason why that system of furling was used in those days.  Those topsail yards are skinny - so skinny that they might well break under the weight of a man.  I've watched the Susan Constant's crew furl the topsails.  Two guys standing in the tops can do the job, without going out on the yards.

Since you're getting deeper into the sailing ship world, I'll recommend a book:  Seamanship in the Age of Sail, by John Harland.  It's a terrific work, showing through contemporary and modern drawings all sorts of details of how rigging works.  I think it's out of print, and used copies aren't cheap.  (The cheapest one I found in a quick web search is $69.00:  http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&ref=bf_s2_a1_t1_1&qi=O3S9Uj00u2ftQ4MdesUmVE9Xyzo_3197690279_1:2:7&bq=author%3Djohn%2520harland%26title%3Dseamanship%2520in%2520the%2520age%2520of%2520sail%2520an%2520account%2520of%2520the%2520shiphandling%2520of%2520the%2520sailing%2520man%2Dof%2Dwar%25201600%2D1860%252C%2520based%2520on%2520contemporary%2520sources  ).  But if you can lay hands on it (maybe through a library) it will be a huge help to model building - and keep you up late at night studying the pictures.  Fascinating stuff.

Hope that helps a little.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 5:13 PM

Looking good Dave.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2014
Posted by Mr2bill4 on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 6:30 PM

She's gonna be a beauty, Dave. BTW, I've posted pics of my Black Swan, if ya wanna take a gander!

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, May 9, 2014 4:04 PM

Thanks for the pics, John.

Very interesting stuff.  Perhaps I'll experiment with that method of furling the sails.

Yes, the book you recommended is pricey!  Maybe I'll see if the library has a copy...I'm in the habit of reading from my limited stack of shipmodeling books at bedtime each night, and I've been through several of them several times by now...need something new, though I should mention that Mondfeld, Mastini, Landstrom, and Petersson are my faves.  I'll probably pick up that R.C. Anderson book that I keep hearing about, for my rigging edification.

Dave

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     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, May 9, 2014 4:38 PM

Update:

I took advantage of a day off from work to get all the basecoats airbrushed on the Golden Hind parts today...took a few hours!  But it was a great opportunity to test the new paints...Vallejo Model Air acrylics.

I realize that the following might be better suited to a different area of the forum, but oh well.

So my initial impression of the paint is good...which is a relief, because I've heard varying accounts of its performance.  The Vallejo Model Air line offers many, many color choices, which is my primary reason for trying them out.  Here's what I've gleaned so far:

+Sprays well through the airbrush, with no sputtering or spitting, and none of the six colors I used required any thinning.  But they do separate after a time, and require thorough mixing before use.

+Easy cleanup. (typical for acrylic)

+Lays down pretty well.

+I had no problem with switching between Vallejo, Model Master, and Tamiya, and then back to Vallejo, just a simple cleanout by spraying some water through the brush.  (compatibility seems good)

+Doesn't dry too fast...which means it probably bonds better to the plastic, and also doesn't get dry on the nozzle/tip of the airbrush and cause spraying problems...it was very easy to use.

+Tons of available colors!  Lots of variety!

+Metallic gold came out really well.  Acrylic metallics have a tendency to be troublesome, either they're uneven, or the flakes separate really fast, or they just look crummy and bland.  The Gold from Vallejo was easy to use, didn't run, and made a nice solid coat...still, it's acrylic, and it doesn't have that super-shine that enamel metallics can give.  Very good for an Acrylic.

There are a couple of things that sort of concern me:

-It's not what I'd call a good *hiding* paint.  The same color sprayed on parts from differently-colored sprue parts come out very different.  Recommend primer for continuity of color between different molded colors...which is a drag.  I don't like to use primer, because I feel like every coat of paint applied lessens the crispness of detail on the parts.  The main reason I use an airbrush is for the super-thin coats that can be applied.  I find Model Master to hide under-colors quite a bit better.

-The finish of the paint seems to be more or less Satin, instead of a flat sheen.  Which is kind of weird, since all the colors I used are tans, browns, sand, etc., colors that would generally be flat.  The bottles don't indicate any level of sheen (flat, semi, gloss, etc.)...so I'm probably going to be hitting it with some Dullcote at the end.  Perhaps it will *flatten* out after a day or two?

-Kinda spendy...Vallejo was almost 4 bucks a bottle(17mL), compared to MM, which runs almost a buck cheaper (14mL) at my LHS.  Not hugely expensive, but it's a consideration.

Here's a pic showing some of the things I mentioned.

 On top, you can see the pump I painted with Gold. I know the pump would not be gold on a ship. but maybe brass (?)and I wanted to try the gold out, anyway. Below that, you can see to different sprues, each with some pinrail parts. Believe it or not, both of those sprues were painted with the SAME COLOR! Yes, so you can see how the underlying color of the molded plastic has a dramatic effect on how the Vallejo paint looks with a standard coat. And below that, another example of the same situation, this time with a different paint color. Two different sprues, molded in light and dark plastic, and the paint leaves a markedly different tone on each. Something to consider if you're going to use Vallejo paints.

Anyway, that's my impression of the Vallejo Model Air paints...pretty good stuff, but there are things to consider, especially when it comes to the color of base plastic.  Once I get into some detail-painting with a brush, I'll update on how this stuff works OUTSIDE the airbrush!

Thanks for looking in!

David

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     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Saturday, May 10, 2014 12:50 AM

Dave,

The color difference between the sprues is phenomenal!  If you hadn't pointed it out, I would have sworn they were two different colors.

If you don't mind some suggestions, I would use a primer, especially with the brass belaying pins. I would also etch the metal with some vinegar to give it tooth so that the paint has something to grab onto.  I know what you mean about the build up of paint hiding detail, which is why I prime with Tamiya's Fine Gray Primer.  It's a bit pricey, but, I really like it because when it dries it tightens up so you are not losing too much detail and being a neutral color it can go with the majority of top colors.

On the pump, especially for this time period, the trunk and lever of the pump would be wood, the upper collar and the connecting metal and rod would be a black iron.  The outlet, I would would drill out , but that's just me.

She is looking good so far, the brass belaying pins are sweet and look so much better than the original plastic ones.  I really like your idea of lowering the topmast as it should be.  I will have to try that out  on one of my future builds,

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, May 10, 2014 11:12 AM

Steve-

Yeah, the color difference is ca-razy!  I just went over some of those parts with a second coat (brushed on), and it made them look a lot better...that'll do for now.  But, if I continue to use the Vallejo paints on future projects, I'll definitely have to use a primer.  They are thin, and brushing them on to bare parts would take a couple of coats... That Tamiya Fine Gray Primer...is that a spray can, or does it come in a bottle?

I'll add some wood and flat black to the pump, but I'll leave the gold on the body of it...I like it!  Probably will open up the outlet, didn't even think of that.

Hey, do you think Blacken It will work to etch the brass pins?  Am I right that Belaying pins are usually lighter colored than the rails?  More of a natural wood color?  

I've done furled sails on a couple of my previous builds, but didn't bother to lower the yards (though a few people mentioned it!)...it wouldn't nag me if they were left up, but since I'm trying new things with this one, I figure it's an obvious choice...and not hard to do.

Now that the basecoats are done, I get to proceed to my favorite part:  Detail painting and washing/weathering!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, May 10, 2014 2:03 PM

Blacken-it will work on the belaying pins all right, but I question whether that would be appropriate. The earliest references to iron belaying pins that I've run across dates from the 1770s.

There is, in fact, some argument about whether belaying pins were used at all in the sixteenth century.  If so, they probably were wood; the traditional woods to the purpose are oak, elm, and locust.

Rigging a model with lowered yards isn't one bit more difficult than rigging it with the yards raised. Essentially, all that happens when the yards are lowered is that the halliards and lifts are slacked off.  And you'd never see raised yards with furled sails on them. (On board the replica Susan Constant the topsails can't be furled until the yards are lowered to within reach of the guys standing in the tops).

You do need some kind of reference book with rigging diagrams in it, though.  One that would be a big help is a volume in the Conway "Anatomy of the Ship" series, the one about the Susan Constant.  (So little is known about either that ship or the Golden Hind that the drawings in the book could represent either of them.) The R.C. Anderson book is a classic, but it deals mainly with larger warships of a later period. Other good sources  (which don't cost anything) are the photos on the websites of the various replica ships -the Jamestown ships, the Mayflower II, the Elizabeth 2, and, of course, the Golden Hind replica. Those are operating ships, and the guys who sail them have found out (sometimes the hard way) that the authentic ways are the ones that work best. Sometimes the only ways that work.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, May 18, 2014 2:28 PM

Looking for some opinions...

Paint scheme.

I've been looking at web images of the Golden Hind, trying to find inspiration for the color scheme...basically, there seems to be an infinite combination of differing paint patterns...any combo of red, blue, yellow, or green...and no two models or paintings seem to be the same.

The hull has plenty of scribed-out areas for the diamond-patterned ornate decoration...the box art shows red and yellow, which I might go for...but I wondered if anyone has any input?

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     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:00 PM

The bottom line is that, as in respect to so many other features of that ship, the color scheme is up to you.

You're quite right; there's virtually no reliable contemporary information about Tudor ship color schemes. As I understand it, the Tudor house colors were green and white. Most good models I've seen have at least one row of green and white triangles. But I've seen plenty of other colors on models and in old paintings.

Complicating the problem is the story that Drake disguised the ship to look Spanish. Heaven knows what that might have meant in terms of colors. And at least one modern scholar has cast doubt on whether Drake actually changed her name to Golden Hind. (Her original name was Pelican. That critter had symbolic significance to Queen Elizabeth,) In any case, I question the hind figureheads and stern carvings I've seen on lots of models and full-size replicas. Ditto the Elizabethan coat of arms that sometimes shows up as a transom ornament. That hardly seems likely for a ship that's trying to look Spanish. (The excellent Revell kit has a pretty hind figurehead and an exquisite coat of arms on the transom. If I ever finish the one I started several years ago, I confess I won't the heart to ditch them.

There's even room for doubt about the color of the underwater hull. The tradition among Modeler's is white or tallow color. But recent scholarship suggests that "dark stuff," a foul substance containing tar, sulfur, and horsehair, is just as likely.

Stuff like this. To my notion, makes this sort of subject particularly fun. You can paint that model pretty much any way you want, and nobody will be able to prove you're wrong.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:15 PM

:)

Yeah, I suppose I'll just come up with something that I like the look of...which is more or less my M.O, anyway...

You bring up another point I'm considering, John...the underwater hull.  On a couple of my models, I've masked and painted a lower hull color, with the BHR it was a light grey/beige, on the Medieval Thomas it was the *dark stuff* color...and on most of my builds I've just left the hull color throughout...

Perhaps the Modeling Majority can influence me as to whether it's important to add a lower hull coating, and also, which color would be more appropriate?  I figure if I'm going to paint the waterline and below, I should do it now, before I get into detailing the hull (which is apparently going to be an exercise in patience and meticulation [new word])....

Thanks,

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, May 18, 2014 7:42 PM

The problem with any sort of bottom treatment (other than copper sheathing) is that if you make it realistic it will look like hCensoredl. Airbrushed, dark red modern hulls look beautiful, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that a real hull that's been in the water for a wile actually looks like that.

My little Hancock shows one approach: a gently weathered tallow color. Since those days I've learned that "dark stuff" would be at least as likely for that period. But I've never been seriously tempted to adorn a model with miniature barnacles and seaweed. If some modeler wants to try it, I'll be happy to admire it, after I get through grossing out.

Which is a fancy way of saying - do the bottom however you think it looks best.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, June 29, 2014 6:28 PM
        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    June 2012
Posted by arnie60 on Monday, June 30, 2014 10:52 AM

Impeccable David!

Below the water line does look lighter to me, but subtlety. You are truly becoming a master at this staining technique. I just picked up an HO scale schooner from BlueJacket that has some parts that should be mahogany. I will definitely shoot you a PM for advice when I get around to it.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, July 1, 2014 8:14 AM

Thanks, Arnie!  I'm glad you like it so far.

:)

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Tuesday, July 1, 2014 9:16 AM

Hi;

   I use - Are you ready for this ? Rustoleum light grey primer on everything .I have used it since I found it over forty years ago . It still works great on figures and model cars,planes,ships and whatever .wood as well.  

    Try it . The light grey (pearl grey ) is great for ship models and stuff , and I use Vallejo paints as well as other brands over the top of it . It accepts All overcoats and is great on metals .

         By the way the suggestion of using " Blacken - It " as a metal toner is a good one .I even used it on chromed and stainless tweezers to dull the glare !                     Tanker-Builder

  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Tuesday, July 1, 2014 9:25 AM

Here's a surprise !

  If you decide to do another IMAII ship be advised .I have used regular furniture and wood stain on the plastic they use and it gives phenominal results .I have found using a mix of dark cherry and mahogany gives a very old look to the wood grain .

  The other thing about this plastic formulation is it's sensitivity to paint thinner .You might say really ? This is good .Yes , the plastic then allows you to use the kit color ( what it's molded it ) and then wash with thinner dirtied up with black and brown paint  , Three parts paint -each color, and one part thinner .This makes for a very old looking ship model !

   The other thing in passing is this .You can use the rub on silver and gold antiquing creams for an old gold or silver finish .The best ones I've found are the " Run n Buff " brand .       Tanker-Builder

  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Tuesday, July 1, 2014 9:29 AM

Gotta Go ;

   But before I do , that's one fine job your doing .     Tanker-Builder

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, July 3, 2014 9:47 AM

Hey Tankerbuilder-

I know Rod Millard uses wood stain on his Imai kits, and they look fantastic!  I'm definitely going to give it a try on one of my builds...but I'm running out of Imai kits!  All I have left is the Mayflower...

Here's a question:

I've heard about the plastic in Imai kits being different than other brands (acceptance of stain, etc.)...but what about the ERTL/Imai kits?  Are they the same material?  The only *actual* Imai japanese kit I've built is the Junk, all the others have been ERTL/Imai...except for the Chebec, which was a Minicraft re-box of the Imai kit.

Anyways, I spent a few minutes this morning learning to assemble and install chainplates on the fore channel...here's a pic:

It was actually super easy!  I know that this channel looks funny, because the chains don't lead off in the correct orientation (they should go in a straight line following the shrouds to the masttop), but that's because of the pesky gunport...I suppose they had to make some concessions for things like that...so it looks a little uneven and weird.

To make the chainplates/lower deadeyes, I used some round wooden deadeyes, some black annealed wire, some brass pins, and some brass chain.  The chain and pins were darkened using Blacken-it.  I wrapped a couple inches of the wire around a deadeye once, and then pinched it and twisted it tight so it would grab the deadeye and make a spiral *tail*...then I cut the tail to a length of about 1/4"...bent it backwards to make it into a hook, then hooked a link of the chain onto it before bending the hook closed all the way.  Then I cut the chain to a length of ~1", and fed the chain through the top opening in the channel, until the deadeye sat neatly atop the channel.  I poked a brass pin through a link of chain at the appropriate distance below so that when the pin is inserted into the hull (I had drilled out the kit locator points for the included plastic shroud/ratline/deadeye pieces) it held the chain at a suitable tension.  Once I knew exactly how much chain I would need for each chainplate, I snipped the remaining couple of links off and inserted the pin all the way.  They're not glued in yet, in case I need to make any changes later...I figure I'll get them all installed before I make it permanent...

I'm also planning to make a short video for YouTube to demonstrate how I did it, in case anybody cares to see it happen!  I was actually really surprised at how easy it turned out to be...

Thanks!

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Thursday, July 3, 2014 10:22 AM

Hi David,

She's looking fantastic so fa...love the color scheme.... and that one chain would be located above the gunport lid thus keeping it in line with the shroud.

  • Member since
    June 2012
Posted by arnie60 on Thursday, July 3, 2014 3:31 PM

David;

Looks fabulous. I used the same method on my Connie for the chain plate. It was much, much simpler than making two or three separate "links" as it is normally depicted. I justified this after some research which indicated that this type of chain link was still in popular use late into the 19th century. Mainly it depended on the outfitters and the availability of materials on whether or not this type of chain link was used. Eventually, from the 1830's on, single flat or round bars replaced the links as can be seen in the Connie's present day configuration. I am not sure I would worry about that one link, although it wouldn't be that hard to move it to above the gun port as Michael suggested.

Looking forward to your next post.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, July 3, 2014 8:30 PM

Thanks!

I agree, it wouldn't be hard to move that chain, but I'm not too worried about it...

You know what's funny, though...on the Main Channel there's a gunport blocking a chainplate fall, and that one does attach above the port!  I guess there was some reason why they chose to do one but not the other??

By the way, your Connie is a heckuva beautiful model!!  Seriously.

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, July 3, 2014 8:40 PM

By the way, here's a link to the YouTube video I made today, showing how I did it...nothing too fancy, but maybe somebody might like to see this method.  Plus, you can see my handsome mug!  :)

www.youtube.com/watch

Sorry it's actually kinda blurry for the close-ups...

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Friday, July 4, 2014 12:34 AM

thanks for the video david.,  you made it look a lot easier than I thought it was, by the way your model looks beautiful., love the colour scheme,

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, July 4, 2014 12:48 AM

Dave,

She is looking good bud.  You did a first rate job on the painting, especially the detail work.  After seeing your posts and the comments, I pulled out my imai Golden Hind and checked the alignments of the plates and the kit shrouds and "chains".  I hope I won't be burned at the stake for heresy, but the Imai designers sure did some slight of hand on not only the fore but also the main chain plates and chains.  

The kit chains that is just forward and aft of the fore gun hatch is molded at such a weird angle, that at first, I thought it was bent from storage, but after looking at both sides and the way they were molded on the sprue, it became obvious that they were designed that way. The main does some of the same things, so you might want to redo them or not, it's your call.  That being said, I still think you did a great job and the chains look MUCH better than the kit provided ones, so carry on.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, July 4, 2014 1:48 AM

I checked out the video and well done!  I like it as much as your ratline video, so what is next on the video horizon?

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Friday, July 4, 2014 10:00 PM

david what size wire did you use in your video., i'm of to my hobby shop tomorrow, about 200 km away.,and intend to get some supplies

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, July 5, 2014 10:09 AM

Steve5-

The wire is Dark Annealed Steel Wire, 28 gauge (.41MM)...honestly, it's probably a little thinner than actual *scale*, but I like it because it fits between the links of the chain when I have it twisted.  The Brand is Hillman Anchor Wire, if that helps...I had a sorta hard time finding it, had to order it online.  Hope you can find it more easily.   THX

Docidle-

Thanks, man!  The video is okay...I just want to do things that might help other people learn techniques that are intimidating (like they seem to me at first!)...which is why I made the ratline video.  That one has gotten over 15,000 views, and dozens of people subscribed to me because of it...and I've gotten tons of messages asking for more videos...truthfully, though, there's already lots of videos on youtube that show many of the "arcane" techniques for rigging, so I don't feel like there's a huge need for me to make videos of everything I do...having said that, I might record some more if I feel like a particular stage can be made less daunting with a little demo and some narrative...and it's not like I'm an expert, either...let's say I make a video for when I tie up the shrouds and rig the deadeyes...they probably won't all be perfectly even, but hey, if the technique works, and it helps clarify the procedure for someone...why not share it?  :)

Hoping to get the rest of the chainplates done this weekend...

Dave

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

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  • Member since
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  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Saturday, July 5, 2014 11:48 PM

Dave,

I was going to ask you who that handsome guy was in the video?

Anyway, I agree that there are numerous videos showing ship modeling techniques, however, having been a corporate trainer many moons ago, your videos, the ratlines and this new one are VERY good.  You take the time to explain and show what you are doing without losing your audience and that is a gift.  When you were in school or being trained on a new technique for work, you probably had favorite teachers or trainers that you connected with, which shows there are good teachers and lousy teachers and many more types in between.  You remember the good ones and the worst in some ways, because you learned something from the good and you survived the bad!  You can be proud that you have subscribers and over 15000 hits.

Hopefully you'll post some more pics from the GH and know I as well as others are looking forward to it.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, July 6, 2014 2:27 AM

Dave I really liked the vid.

You have fingers of gold. For a big guy, those things really respond to your brain. I will guess you play a good guitar.

Piano man myself, and soon will be playing with my elbows.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, July 11, 2014 2:41 PM

Thank you for the kind words, gents.

Steve, I'm glad you find my *teaching style* to be engaging...I hope that makes it easier for people to catch on to the method.

GM, I've been playing guitar for pretty much my entire adult life (40 is a few months away!), making music is definitely a big part of who I am...in fact, tomorrow I'm getting together with a few friends and we're going play songs, have a few drinks, and enjoy the Summer time weather!  Good for the soul!

I fiddled around with piano for a time, learned a few classical pieces...one of my favorites for piano is Moonlight Sonata, by LV Beethoven...lots of intensity for such a simple piece, if it's played with intent.

Anyway, I will certainly continue to post updates on this build...but like many, I'm finding the season to be overwhelmingly busy, with weird long shifts at work, and home projects...the GH is shaping up to be the slowest model build so far!  Hopefully by September I'll be able to devote more time to the modeling workbench!  Meanwhile, there she sits, on the bookcase, an empty shell...patiently awaiting my attention!  :)

Dave

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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:04 PM

Hey everybody!

I was just browsing through the recent ship posts and figured I would bump this thread, and say Howdy!

I've been lucky enough to find some time for modeling lately...the house is painted, and I just put the second coat of stain on the deck this morning, so hopefully the majority of home projects are done for the season.  :)

I started this thread not as a straight-up WIP, but  mainly to highlight the specific mods I'm doing as I build it.  Most of my recent progress has been pretty standard, so I haven't seen much need for updating every step of the way.

I've got the decks installed, and I've been installing deck furniture (pinrails, cleats, ladders, etc.) when I find a couple hours of free time here and there.  I expect I'll be continuing in that direction for a few weeks yet, before the masts go in...at that time, I'll be making a choice regarding sails (Furled or Bare Poles).

Anyway, hope everybody's doing well!

Dave

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

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  • Member since
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Posted by rwiederrich on Monday, August 11, 2014 8:32 AM

Good to see you pluggin along Dave.  I too have nearly come to the end of my summer *fixer-upper* projects...and will be entering my Fall/autum model schedule myself.  I hope to finish up the *Glory of the Seas* this year.

From moving to resetting up my house/office/garage/model room.......I'm done with *Projects* for a time.

(I hope)

Good luck.

Rob

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, September 8, 2014 6:27 PM

Rob- I always love summertime, but it's true, there's not much bandwidth for hobbying!

It's nice to know that fall is a' comin', and with it, some relaxation and modeling!  :)

As for current progress on the GH, I tied the wooldings on the masts recently.  I wish I'd have sanded off the molded-on wooldings first, but I thought I could get away with it, since I used fine thread.  I don't love the way they look, but for a first-attempt, it'll do...and next time, I'll do the proper prep work.

Now that the masts are ready, I'll be putting in the masttops and crosstrees, and the lower topmast deadeyes, then LOOK OUT!...it's rigging time already?!?

I'll be breaking out the shroud and stay lines...

I've noticed a pattern with my ship modeling habits....Once I begin to approach the rigging of a ship model, I also begin to consider my next project....the forthcoming project is decided, and it's a subject that has a polarizing effect on the plastic shipmodeling community at large, so I don't know if I'll feel compelled to post a WIP of it here...but let's just say it's a French Giant.

But for now, here's a couple of pics of the wooldings on the Golden Hind..sorry, I think the pics are a little blurry and the lighting is poor:

Dave

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

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  • Member since
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Posted by rwiederrich on Tuesday, September 9, 2014 8:41 AM

Fantastic work Dave.  I sure like your weathering technique.

"French Giant*?

I too have just about finished summer projects and am getting ready to settle in with some fall model building myself.  I have to finish the rigging of the Glory of the Seas...which has been taking for ever.

Rob

  • Member since
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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, September 9, 2014 9:00 AM

Soleil Royal.  

I know, I know.  But I have to do it.  It's been haunting me, and I think I can make it beautiful!  It'll just take some time.  The La Reale is in the queue, but I want to save that one for when I feel like a pro.  Same with the Victory.

I'm glad you like the weathering technique....I find it more consistent than using wet washes...in fact, I hardly even use washes anymore.

I really dig the Glory....I always think about the Cutty Sark you showed me last year....love your rigging work....I especially liked the difference in tautness of the rigging....some of your running rigging was set with the perfect amount of realistic sag...very cool.

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

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Posted by rwiederrich on Friday, September 12, 2014 8:38 AM

The trick in getting proper sag is in using nylon line stained with an alcohol wash...when dry it sags like the real thing with no defects in the swag(twists/bends,rolls of an unnatural nature).  Standing rigging is left alone while the running rigging gets the treatment.  Tight strait taught running rigging lines are unrealistic in my view.

Good luck my friend.

Rob

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, September 13, 2014 10:14 AM

Good advice, Rob!

By the way, does anyone have a recommendation for a good set of rigging plans for the Golden Hind?  Not that the Imai instructions seem inaccurate to me, but they don't offer much detail, even leaving out some steps (for example, bowsprit gammoning isn't mentioned at all in the instructions)...I found a PDF of the Revell plans online, so I'll consult those...but I wondered if there is a really good and detailed rigging plan floating around, perhaps from another manufacturer?

THX

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, September 13, 2014 12:03 PM

To begin with, a big caveat: scarcely anything is known for sure about the real Golden Hind, and as far as I know no primary sources about her rigging exist. All reconstructions of her, including the Imai kit, are just that - reconstructions.

That said, a fair amount of info about typical rigging of the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries is available. If I were you, the one I'd use more than any other is a volume in the Conway Anatomy of the Ship series: The Merchantman Susan Constant, 1607, by Brian Lavery. He was the designer of the reconstructed ships now at Jamestown - and he really know his stuff. If you rigged your Golden Hind according to the many drawings in that book, I don't think anybody would claim you were wrong. I certainly wouldn't.

Like so many other good books for modelers, this one's out of print. I did, however, find a couple of used copies at surprisingly reasonable prices on the Barnes and Noble used book page:  http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-susan-constant-1607-brian-lavery/1000106776?ean=9780870215834 . After you recover from the prices on the page that opens up when you click the link, click on "Used - From $15.00."

I've bought lots of used books through Barnes and Noble; their service is fast and reliable.

Another tip regarding rigging. I have a new favorite source for blocks - at least for ships prior to the late nineteenth century. A fine modeler named Chuck Passaro has set up a firm called Syren Ship Model Company that sells boxwood and pearwood blocks (among other things). I ordered some a little while back, mainly to see what they're like. They're by far the best wood-stropped blocks for model builders that I've ever seen - and the prices aren't bad. His laser-cut acrylic hooks are also superb. Here's the link:  http://www.syrenshipmodelcompany.com .

Hope that helps. Regarding your choice of the Soleil Royal - no comment. I've shot off my mouth about that one enough.

Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, September 13, 2014 12:57 PM

Thanks for the info, John!

I think the Lavery book may be just what I could use...think I'll order it.  Turns out, Amazon has it listed by a 3rd party (used), as well...from the Half Price Books in Ohio....same price and same vendor as the B&N used vendor!

You know, I've been hearing a lot about the Syren company....Steve (docidle) has been using their stuff, and he also has great things to say about it.  The line looks amazing!  Tell me, do the boxwood blocks come from Syren already rounded and smooth along the edges, as in the pictures on their website?  Some of the wooden blocks I've got from MS are very rough on the edges, requiring a lot of delicate sanding and cleanup...kind of a pain.  I think for the Golden Hind, I will use the Imai line, and the molded plastic *blocks*, but in the future, I can see myself going to Syren to supply myself with both, especially for kits in which the supplied line and blocks are terribly crummy....

*totally natural segue*

As far as the Heller Soleil Royal.  Thank you for not browbeating me for mentioning that it's to be my next build.  I know that you (and others) have a bad taste from the kit, and I get it.  We've had discussions here about what it means to be a Serious Scale Modeler, and of course, the definition of that term is as varied as can be.  The truth is, I'm excited to jump into building the SR, and I think it will teach me a lot about intricate details, planning, and researching, and some kit modification. Truthfully, with all the negativity that surrounds it, I won't be posting any kind of WIP, simply because I wish to avoid having a thread that attracts the nay-saying and such....Though, I may likely post some inquiries during that build, and I hope (hope, hope) that I can count on those among the forum to help without prejudice, whilst I learn on my own whether the SR is a worthy expense of my time (and $$ for blocks and line!!).   :)

After all, and I've said this before....without the help of such admirable and knowledgeable peers, I wouldn't be as interested (or skilled) in shipmodeling as I am right now.  I learn more with each kit I build!

Thanks for the support, you guys!

Dave

P.S.- I just ordered the Susan Constant book, thanks for the suggestion!

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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Posted by arnie60 on Saturday, September 13, 2014 1:18 PM

David;

Yes, the Syrene blocks are completely finished and look every bit as good as they do in the pics. Their cordage is equally exceptional (IMHO), all well worth the money. Syrene now also carries deadeyes, but you have to assemble them and do some tumbling as well. I have been quite happy w/ the MS deadeyes on the whole.

As for your book, you might want to check out Abe Books. I have found a few books at a much cheaper price than anywhere else. They are quite reliable and the shipping costs are more than reasonable.

Hope this helps. Keep up the exceptional work!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, September 13, 2014 1:38 PM

Yeah, the Syren Ship Models blocks are nicely rounded - unlike the shoddy HECEPOB blocks that come in most Model Shipways kits. And the grooves are clean, and nicely centered, and the holes are lined up perfectly. I'm not sure how Mr. Passaro manages to sell these beauties for such low prices.

I have one reservation about Syren Ship Models' rope. If the photos are to be believed, it's all cable-laid (i.e., spun up counter-clockwise). Another way to put it: in cable-laid rope the strands form a Z shape. In hawser-laid rope, they form an S shape. [Later edit: The first time I typed that I got it backwards. Sorry about that; I've fixed it. Here's a picture that should clarify things:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope . Scroll down till you get to the picture on the right size that shows the S and Z.] Cottage Industry Models offers its "CIM Rope" spun in either direction. I suspect Mr. Passaro also could put his rope-making machine in reverse; I haven't asked him.

I don't imagine anybody knows what the lay of sixteenth- and early seventeenth-century rigging line was, but by the mid-seventeenth century, and continuing through at least the early nineteenth century, cable-laid line was used for the major parts of the standing rigging and hawser-laid (spun up clockwise) line was used for virtually everything else.

How much difference all this makes is, of course, up to the individual modeler. But this is why lots of serious scale ship modelers are accustomed to making their own line.

Incidentally, there seems to be a common misconception about the word "Syren." It doesn't have an E on the end of it. "Syren," in the English language, is just an archaic equivalent of the modern word "Siren" - i.e., a magical lady who sings "siren songs" that lure sailors to untimely deaths. Mr. Passaro took the name from a kit he designed for Model Shipways, the brig Syren. (It's a terrific kit; I have one in my stash. I intend to throw out the supplied blocks and replace them with Mr. Passaro's.) When I called Model Expo to order it, the lady on the phone pronounced it "Syrene" (with a long E). ME also has a video about it; the narrator mispronounces the name as well. I don't know how that habit got started.

Amazon and Barnes and Noble collaborate with many of the same used book dealers; it's not surprising that the same books, at the same prices, show up on both websites. Abe's Books is part of the system; several books I've bought through B&N have come from that store. I'm a big fan of them. My most remarkable haul so far is a copy of Lost Moon, the book on which the movie "Apollo 13" was based. It cost me $2.00 (plus about $4.00 shipping. I don't think the dealer noticed the most remarkable feature of it: Captain Lovell's autograph on the title page.

If you ever come up empty on a search of Amazon or B&N, try Bookfinder.com or Al Libris. They both operate internationally.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, September 13, 2014 3:25 PM

Thanks for the insight, you guys!  By all accounts, the Syren company has great quality products...can't wait to check some of it out.  And it's always good to hear about additional sources for used books.  I ended up buying that Anatomy of the Susan Constant from a different seller than the HPB Ohio...theirs was listed as *good* condition, but Rick's Books (another used book vendor on Amazon) had a copy in *like new* condition listed for the same price, so I figured I'd go with that one.  If anyone else is looking for that book, there are several copies available for 15 plus 4 bucks shipping used, from various vendors...much friendlier than $136 new!  haha

Anyway, thanks again...

I guess I'll be waiting until my copy arrives to begin standing rigging.  I want to figure out exactly where I should install blocks on the masts and yards before I run the shrouds.

Dave

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:53 PM

Hi all-

I figured this would be as good a time as any to post an update....

Got all my lower shrouds on, and the lanyards seized...

Not bad, for my first attempt at full shrouds and deadeyes....I don't LOVE the final result, but it'll do.  :)

I've learned a couple of things so far, such as that I may rely too heavily on Super Glue...it works great to hold knots, but it also has the effect of soaking into the line and stiffening it terrifically...sometimes that's a bad thing, because glued lines don't like to lie closely together at the masthead...

Anyway, here's a couple of quick pics....

Dave

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:57 PM

How funny!

I just noticed in the picture that the one gunport is molded shut below that channel, and I didn't rig it with line....though I drilled holes in the door and the hull to accommodate line!  Guess I have unfinished business down there!  

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 7:37 PM

Dave,

She is looking great!  I know what you mean about the Super Glue issues.  I am starting to steer away from it myself.  The Nina's shrouds have the exact issue you have on your GH.  It is great to get something to stick quickly but it hardens too stiffly.  It just means that I will have to slow down even more....... man, that means my progress will be even more glacial than before.

Your lanyards look really nice and the shrouds look like they have the right tension but i know what you mean about not loving them.  For a first attempt you did an outstanding job in my opinion.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:33 PM

Thanks, Steve!

Yeah, Super Glue is awesome for making knots strong in a hurry, but when I need line to lie naturally, or to tuck in against other lines, it's no good.  Convenient, but dangerous!  May be a good idea to get everything where it belongs, THEN apply a dab of super glue to the line.  Care is necessary.

Some of the shrouds are tight enough, but some of the forward ones loosened up as I moved aft.  When I did the mizzen shrouds, I started at the aftmost, and worked fore...and that made a huge difference!  I'll be doing shrouds aft-to-fore on my next build.  

All in all, though...I'm pretty pleased so far.  Like always, I've been learning a lot.

Thinking I might take a break from ships after this and build a race car model, before I sink my teeth into the French Behemoth in the bottom of the closet...

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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Posted by arnie60 on Friday, October 24, 2014 12:38 PM

I have the same issues w/ CA and lines, although it remains my glue of choice.

I have found that the gel type does not wick as much, but takes a bit longer to set. I have also discovered though, that the thin type wicks like crazy, which has come in very handy for setting the deadeyes in their strops (just a tiny drop on the edge and it wicks all the way around the groove without getting on the face of the deadeye and clogging the holes). Its also really nice to use for making a "needle" end for threading your line.

For rope coils, I have been using Syrene cordage which I have found you can soak it with water (no need for glue and no sheen to dul-coat after it dries) before or after you loop it. Once you adjust the hang (droop) of the coil, the weight of the wet line holds its shape after it dries, stays that way. I have tried this with other cordage w/ little or no success. Might have something to do with whether or not the cordage is synthetic of if its made on rope walk like Syrene's is.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, October 24, 2014 2:01 PM

It's so true...despite the problems it can cause...CA is still the most practical choice!  

I'll have to pick up some of the Gel type...but you're right, the thin stuff has good qualities about it...

I've never used any of the supplies from Syren, but I've heard nothing but good things....I'll likely buy some rigging line and fittings from them for a special project I'm planning in the future...

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, November 10, 2014 4:58 PM

Ratlines, Ratlines, Ratlines....

:)

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, November 19, 2014 5:39 PM

I have a quick question, for anyone who might be watching this thread:

So I'm getting the spars rigged with blocks and looking ahead to running rigging, and I realize that the knighthead on deck for the main halyard is aft and off to STARBOARD of the main mast....that would mean that my halyard tyes will need to come through the cheeks, and then angle off slightly to the righ and downt, before reeving through the ramshead block and into the knighthead....

Is this way off?  I can't seem to find any pics of the correct angle to see if the knighthead is always directly abaft the mast...it seems funny, but if it can pass for correct, then I'm happy...if it's a contrivance of blasphemy, I'm not sure I can correct it at this point...the deck has a big ol' locator crater where the knighthead is already installed like a fencepost, and there's no room behind the mast to relocate it, anyway...the bulkhead is in the way....

Thoughts?

THX

Dave

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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Posted by arnie60 on Wednesday, November 19, 2014 6:19 PM

Don't know if this will help or not. Deciphering it could be iffy.

Also found this pic which, of course, does not seem to show any belays to the block you are talking about.

  • Member since
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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, November 19, 2014 6:45 PM

Arnie, it's perfect!

I can see by the drawings that (6) is the callout for the halyard, and the top-view deck drawing indeed shows the knigthhead (bitt for 6) to be off-center of the mast...

And then the picture even shows the Knighthead in the shadows just to the right of the staircase, though there are no lines running up from it.

Thank you kindly, my friend!

Mystery solved!  :)

Dave

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Posted by 1943Mike on Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:44 PM

Dave,

Your work is always a pleasure to look at and, from my standpoint, a learning experience.

I noted that John (jtilley) mentioned "Seamanship in the Age of Sail" as a reference to furled sails. I have the book and in chapter 7 beginning on page 96 is a lot of the information anyone would need with regard to "Bending, Loosing and Furling Sail". A cursory look on the net turned it up here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=g7Jd_o6_s90C&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=furled+sixteenth-century+sail&source=bl&ots=cWojQ18Zbd&sig=ZcotfJiHqo8woe6KiRtmf3s2ZxE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9UNtVMfALqfciAKuk4GwAg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=furled%20sixteenth-century%20sail&f=false

I hope this is of some use. I'm not convinced it should be posted on the Internet without proper permission but, for the moment I'll assume that whoever posted it did/does have the right to do so.

Mike

Mike

"Le temps est un grand maître, mais malheureusement, il tue tous ses élèves."

Hector Berlioz

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Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, November 19, 2014 8:35 PM

I don't have any problem with the knight head being off-center. I imagine the reason has to do with something essential that's in the way of it somewhere below decks.

I do hope the kit doesn't have a steering wheel (like the replica in Arnie's photo). The steering wheel was invented about a hundred years later; the Golden Hind almost unquestionably would have been steered with a whip staff.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, November 20, 2014 5:13 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Mike!  And thanks for the link...it provided a lot of good details on furling!

Though, I'm still unsure of exactly how I'll proceed with the sails on this build...the *authentic* technique seems as if it will be tricky to pull off in scale, and also it will obviously require the sails to be furled with the yards already installed.  I may try my hand at a practice run, on a false mast/yard jig, with some tissue paper (or similar, I can't seem to find any of the silkspan material I've heard about)...I don't really like working with tissue, and any cloth that I use will clearly be super thick and oversized, especially since with that technique I won't be able to pull the illusion by shortening the sail material before furling.

We'll see what happens, but I expect I'll end up with a standard roll/gather of material lashed to the yard.

But, I am at exactly the stage where it's time to start working on the sails...so I better figure something out!  haha

John, it's funny...I didn't even notice the wheel at first!  This kit doesn't include a steering wheel, but there's no visible whipstaff, either....but it does have the little cubbyhole (companionway?) where the helmsman could look out while steering the ship.

Dave

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Posted by rwiederrich on Thursday, November 20, 2014 5:37 PM

Dave....make your sails out of paper...cut to scale then crumple them and crumple them and crumple them and crumple them an..............until they are so soft and suptle then afix.  They are easy and look great...plus you can add reefs or simply draw in the canvas seam lines..with stinching if you like.

Believe me it looks great but is quite technique sensitive and requires lots of tenacity.

Try it.

Rob

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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, November 20, 2014 7:05 PM

Ahhhhhh, that's right....I remember your paper sails, Rob.  They look great!

As soon as I read your suggestion, I remembered I have some old parchment paper....so I crumpled the heck out of a piece until it was soft like a napkin (took a few minutes!), then I rolled and folded it up until it was something similar to a furled sail....I then tied a series of lines around it to hold it to the yard, and voila!...here's my attempt at a paper furled spritsail....I know it doesn't look great, but I basically just whipped it together in like 15 minutes, as a temporary example...

I would like some feedback, though, from anyone who wants to say "hey Dave, that's great!", or "Hey Dave, that looks fake and here's why!"....

Rob, I get the feeling your suggestion was more in the direction of using paper to make *set* sails?  I like that idea, too, and I think i may go that way the next time I try set sails, but for now...

Anyone have any suggestions for improvement?

THX

Dave

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Posted by arnie60 on Friday, November 21, 2014 12:02 AM

All right Dave.... It looks great, but....

I don't know, just seems a little too symmetrical to me, a little too neat if you know what I mean. When sails were furled they weren't really "rolled" up ( as I understand it ) , but gathered. This might be really difficult to duplicate, although I have seen some done that looked very authentic, but I think they were cloth. [whish I had bookmarked them]

Hope this helps w/ out sounding too negative.Embarrassed

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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, November 21, 2014 12:26 AM

Well, since you asked, Dave....

In a sixteenth-century ship the furling process brings the clews (lower corners) of the sail up toward the center of the yard. This results in two things that are of interest to the modeler. First, the furled sail forms a bundle that's considerably fatter in the middle than at the ends of the yard. Second, a little bit each clew is left sticking out of the bundle, with the sheet and clewline (meaning, in the case of a large sail, their blocks) attached to it.

I think I may have mentioned earlier that, during this period (and apparently until pretty late in the eighteenth century) the topsails were furled by gathering them up into bundles in the middle and lashing the bundles up in front of the lower mastheads. I haven't been able to find a picture on the web that really shows this clearly, but here's a view of the replica ships at Jamestown that comes close:

http://www.xplormor.com/wp-content/uploads/galleries/post-5589/Jamestown%20Settlement%20(7).jpg

The drawings from the John Harland book, to which 1943Mike kindly linked us, also demonstrate the process.

The Discovery, in the foreground of the photo, has her one and only topsail furled in authentic fashion. The reason for that system is pretty obvious: that little yard is so small that it probably couldn't sustain the weight of men crawling out along it to furl the sail. (The footrope hadn't been invented yet.)

I've posted my own favorite trick for making furled sails (silkspan tissue painted with a mixture of white glue and acrylic paint, softened up at the last minute with water) several times in the Forum. In the unlikely event that anybody's interested, here's an excerpt from one of those earlier posts:

Ok, here goes. To discuss this topic thoroughly would require more space than anybody wants me to take up in this forum, but I'll try to write a relatively brief outline.

The first thing to do is get a clear understanding of what happens to the spars and rigging when the sails are furled. There's more to it than simply replacing the "set" sails with furled ones.

In the typical eighteenth-century square-rigged ship the only yards that are fixed in position vertically are the lower yards (i.e., the fore, main, and crossjack yards). All the others slide up and down the masts - up when the sails are set, down when the sails are furled. (The quickest way for a ship modeler to demonstrate a failure to understand rigging is to put bare yards, or yards with furled sails on them, in the raised positions.) If the sails are furled (or left off), the topsail yard should be resting on the lower cap (or nearly so), the topgallant yard on the topmast cap, and the royal yard on the collar of the topgallant stay. Lowering the yards in itself changes the appearance of the model significantly - and, to the eye of an experienced ship enthusiast, improves it.

Another error lots of modelers commit is to make the "bundles" of the furled sails too big. A real furled sail is remarkably compact - usually a bit SMALLER in diameter than the yard to which it's attached. If you stand on a pier behind a ship with furled sails, you probably won't be able to tell whether the sails are there or not.

Almost any material used for scale model sailmaking is, by definition, too thick. With furled sails, though, it's possible to compensate for that problem by reducing the sail's depth - and thus the size of the bundle.

My favorite material for furled sails is "silkspan" tissue, subjected to a special (but quite simple) treatment. Silkspan can be found in the flying model airplane department of any good hobby shop - for very reasonable prices. I find that the thinnest grade of silkspan used by the airplane builders works well for larger sails. For the smaller ones I pay a visit to the local camera store and buy a package of lens-cleaning tissue. This stuff seems to be about the same material, but finer. The drawback to it is that it only comes in small sheets.

I start out by taping a piece of tissue over some sort of frame (a small cardboard box works fine) and painting it with a mixture of water-soluble hobby paint (I like PolyScale), Elmer's white glue, and water. The color should be a pale greyish beige. (PolyScale makes a railroad color called "weathered concrete" that looks about right to my eye.) The proportions of paint to glue to water aren't critical. I generally apply the mixture with a cheap foam brush from the hardware store. The tissue will sag a bit as it gets painted, but the cardboard box will stop it from drooping back on itself and creating a useless mess.

When the painted tissue is dry it's stiff and smooth; the fuzzy original texture of the silkspan is gone. I then use a fine pencil to lay out the shape of the sail. I make that shape a trapezoid, with the long axis identical to the scale width of the sail but the depth considerably less. (Again, that ratio isn't critical, but half the scale depth would be about right.) The reason for the trapezoidal shape is that (assuming I'm working on an eighteenth- or early-nineteenth-century square sail) I want the finished bundle to be fatter in the middle than at the ends. While I'm laying it out in pencil I also lay out a narrow hem on each side. Then I cut the sail out and, using white glue again, glue a piece of fine rigging thread (the boltrope) around the edge, and fold and glue the hem over it. (The hem isn't authentic, but it strengthens the sail and will be barely detectable on the finished product.) Then, using a small needle and thread, I fasten the sail to the yard - or, if the ship dates from after about 1820, the jackstay on top of the yard. I then rig the various lines that are attached to the sail - clewlines, buntlines, leechlines, sheets, tacks, etc.

At this point the yard/sail/rigging assembly looks pretty stupid. But now comes the trick. I touch the sail with a brush that's been dampened in water. For some reason (I don't entirely understand it), the water softens up the white glue but doesn't affect the paint. The sail takes on the consistency of a thin sheet of rubber, which can be bundled up by hauling on the appropriate rigging lines and teased into authentic-looking wrinkles and creases. It takes me a while to rig the gaskets that hold it in that condition; if the sail starts drying out before I'm finished I dab on a little more water.

When the water evaporates, the sail is remarkably stiff and durable. I have a couple models whose sails I rigged this way more than twenty years ago, and they look good as new.

I find it much easier to do all this off the model. I generally clamp a piece of wood dowel in a vise on my bench and secure the yard temporarily to that. When the furled sail has dried out I transfer the yard to the model and secure the ends of all the rigging lines appropriately.

That's the short version. I suspect nobody wants the long one. Hope this helps.

I think that method would work beautifully on a kit like yours.  On the other hand, your spritsail looks like a success as it is. But remember that the clewlines and sheets would be rigged whenever the sail was on the yard - furled or unfurled. They're numbered 8 and 10 in the German drawing you posted earlier. Note that the clewline goes through a block on the yard. The block is at the point to which the clew of the sail would be hauled up.

Hope that helps a little. That model is shaping up superbly.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, November 21, 2014 8:38 AM

Thanks, Guys!

Honestly, I'm seeing this as an opportunity to exercise patience and learn something new, instead of my knee-jerk mindset, which is more of a "well, we're almost done with this build, let's just get it finished and slap the sails on."...

If I do the rest of the sails just as I did that spritsail, I think I'll feel like a student who just wants to get through his last final quickly after a week of diligent test-taking....but I think I'll regret not trying for a better result.

I'll at least give it a couple more attempts at some other techniques, see what I can accomplish, and what I like best.

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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, November 21, 2014 8:46 AM

Dave, it's none of my business, of course, but I'd urge you to fiddle around with your sailmaking techniques and sail rigging a little more. My reason for taking that liberty is simply that the model so far looks so good. It will be spectacular when it's finished - and more so if the rigging and sails are up to the same standards as the rest. I don't think you'll ever regret a minute you spend making this one as good as you can make it.

The method I've suggested (not the only legitimate one, by any means) really isn't significantly more difficult or time-consuming than lots of stuff you've already done. And I don't think I'm alone in thinking I'd like to see what you do with it.

You're into the home stretch with this model. Hang in there and keep giving it your best shot.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Friday, November 21, 2014 12:21 PM

Dave,

I agree with Prof Tilley, you got a good start and part of this hobby is the fun of experimenting and trying something different.  Even as is, the furled sail you have is far better and compliments the model than using the plastic, blow molded ones that come in the kit or trying to use cloth, which ends up being horribly out of scale.

Scott

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Posted by rwiederrich on Friday, November 21, 2014 1:37 PM

Dave...to give some proper reassuring feedback.......I would suggest you forgo using the exact size of the sail to be modeled when in the furled position.  Many make the mistake of simply rolling up the sail as a cigarette...leaving blunted ends.  You want the sail to reef rom the edge taperingly...so it is necessary to cut the sail in a altered fashion so it furls more protypically.   You do not need the entire sail to replicate a furled sail...not if you want it to look proportional and natural.  Full sails need no description since they are full and are required to be so.

Rob

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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, November 21, 2014 4:56 PM

Thanks for the encouragement, you guys!

I'm definitely going to try a few different ideas before I decide on how to proceed.

I can't find silkspan anywhere (even eBay doesn't have it!), so I did a little cursory search, and read somewhere that silkspan is basically the same material as teabags are made from, so I thought, "hey, maybe coffee filter paper?"....so I sit here with parchment, printer paper, and a few coffee filters (which happen to be wide enough when flattened to reach the length of the widest sail from this kit!)....they are all in various stages of *crumple*, and I will spend some time working with each and trying a few techniques to see if I can tease them into a suitable form.

Now I'm on a mission to experiment and see what I can find that best works for me.

So far, some type of paper seems to be the best bet.

I'm glad to have found the ambition to expand my skills in this area, instead of just saying "good enough"...

Thanks again!

I'll update when I find some useful data!

Dave

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Posted by rwiederrich on Friday, November 21, 2014 5:44 PM

Nah....I just use simple copier paper..draw out the sail....pencil in the seam lines and stiching....possibly the leach lines...then crumple...crumple..crumple......well...crumple.

Perfect sails and soft..almost cloth like.

Good luck.

Rob

  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, November 21, 2014 6:34 PM

We took up the disappearance of silkspan in a thread a few months back. The bottom line is that the stuff apparently is indeed off the market. But replacement substances are available.

I think the coffee filters will work fine. As I noted in that earlier thread, at least one kit manufacturer has supplied coffee filters for that purpose. If they're big enough for the largest of your sails, you're in business.

On this particular model you only have six sails to worry about. That German drawing is a good guide to how they'd be furled - with one exception.

The key lines in determining the shapes of the furled sails are the clewlines, which are numbered 10 on the drawing. The clew of the sail gets hauled right up to the block on the yard, forming the start of the bundle.

I'd cut the fore- and mainsails, and the spritsail, as shallow trapezoids.The two topsails are more complicated. They need to be shaped sort of like a T, so a really skinny bundle lies along the yard and a big fat bundle gets lashed to the lower masthead.

For some reason the German drawing doesn't show the rigging of the lateen mizzen. Two to four lines on each side, called brails, would haul the bottom of it up to blocks on the yard. The resulting bundle would be a little fatter in the middle, but not much. I'd cut that one as a wide, shallow triangle,

Your other problem, if you want to use the "painted and glued silkspan" trick, is that PolyScale paint is off the market. I think the acrylic paints sold in craft stores (and even at Walmart-Mart) would work just as well. (I particularly like a brand called Ceramcoat.) Those paints are sold in a huge variety of colors - and they're incredibly cheap. I suggest a dull pale grey, with a hint of tan. Add a small bottle of old-fashioned Elmer's white glue and have at it.

Good luck. I'm really looking forward to seeing this model in its finished state.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, November 22, 2014 10:35 AM

Thanks for the info, John!

I'm not sure how much rigging detail I'll get into with the sails, but I suppose installing the clews will at least make the sails look like they are actually part of the ship, and not just some material strapped to the yard.

Let's see if I have the basics of installation sequence correct:

I'll add a couple of blocks for the clewlines onto the yards, close to the center? 1/3rd of the way from center?

Cut out the sails, paint/glue them, and let them dry.

Attach clewlines to the sails corners.

Attach the sails to the yards with a running stitch or robbands.

THEN, attach the yard/sail to the mast.

Soften sail with some water, and form into a bundle/furl.

Then fasten into shape with gaskets tied around the sail/yard.

Final shaping of sail material while still damp.

I think that's more or less the sequence I'll be following?  And of course, in the meantime I'll practice some different styles of furling on a jig to see what I can come up with.  Not sure about gathering them up around the masts, in the shape of 2 Js, but I will work on getting the bundles fatter in the center....

Got a lot of learning to do this weekend!

D

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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, November 22, 2014 1:19 PM

Dave, you've just about got it.

There are a few more lines that you probably want to deal with, though: the sheets. They hold the lower corners of the sails down to the yard below (or, if there is no yard below, to the ship's hull).

In that German drawing, the sheets are numbered #8. The spritsail sheets have blocks and pendants; they run from the clew of the sail to some belaying point on the hull near the bow. The fore and main sheets run from the clews of the fore- and mainsails aft; they probably would have pendants and blocks as well. It was typical for the standing end of the running part of the sheet to be seized or spliced to an eyebolt in the side of the hull, and the hauling end to pass through a hole in the bulwark and get belayed to a kevel or cleat.

The topsail sheets are single ropes. They run from the clews of the sails, down through blocks on the ends of the yard, then through blocks near the center of the yard, then to belaying pins in the fiferails.

The sheet for the lateen mizzen (also numbered #8 on the German drawing) is a simple tackle that runs from the clew of the sail to a belaying point at the very after end of the poop deck. Sometimes there's a long pole, called an outrigger or a boomkin, that sticks out of the stern and lets the sheet get hauled even further aft. (I can't tell whether your model has a boomkin or not; the German drawing doesn't.)

Then there are the fore and main tacks - simple, single lines that run forward from the clews to the rails forward of the mast. They're numbered #9 on the German drawing, though the angle of the drawing makes them a little hard to see.

The spritsail has no tacks - for obvious reasons.

You mentioned earlier in this thread that you've got a copy of the Anatomy of the Ship volume on the Susan Constant. The drawings in it should make all of this clear.

The rigging of this ship really is remarkably simple - and there's not a lot of repetition. And the scale is big and roomy. Anybody who's seen your other models will find it ludicrously obvious that you're up to a good rigging job on this one. (If you take on that Heller Ship That Shall Not Be Named, you'll get a real dose of what a mess seventeenth-century rigging can be.)

It looks to me like you're a week - or less - away from having this model finished. And it's going to be spectacular.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, November 24, 2014 6:56 PM

Here goes nothing.

I tried my hand at some coffee filter sails, and I got one installed and furled on the spritsail yard.

I'll preface by saying it was a valiant first effort, but I definitely think my technique needs some work.

Nonetheless, I'd like to share my experiment, and see what people think.

It's not great, but it's way better than what I had previously.

Have a look:

 Here we have some standard coffee filters, slightly crinkled to get a uniform texture  Then I cut them out to reduced surface area, as per popular advice  Then I painted them with Vallejo Hemp acrylic airbrush paint, and thinned Elmer's glue. The color is too dark, but I'll let it slide. By the way, I thought those vacuum-fomred sails were totally useless, but I found a decent purpose for them...paint trays! lol  After they dried (with some help from the fiancee's hairdryer) I peeled them off the plastic sheet just like they were stickers!  Then I attached the spritsail to the yard with a running stitch (delicate work)and ran clewlines from the corners of the sail into the clew blocks on the yard. (I'm only going with clewlines for these sails, I think...baby steps for now)  Put it on a clamp, moistened it with water, and pulled the clews up to the blocks...then I tried to *furl* it, but had some trouble with finger access, so I basically just tied on the gaskets and let them do most of the gathering for me...it came out pretty uneven, but with some persuasion I got a kinda-sorta furled look, and called it good.  Here's the back of the yard and sail.

Well, what do you all think?  It's an improvement from before, but it's still not what I was hoping for exactly...not sure if I'll let this one stay as-is, and try to do better on the rest, or pull it off and start over....

Dave

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Posted by jtilley on Monday, November 24, 2014 7:22 PM

By Jove, you've got it! The only lines that seem to be missing are the sheets. Add them, and you'll have all the gear necessary to handle the spritsail.

The others will be a little more complicated - but not much.

i do think the color is a little dark, but I think you can fix it later with some dry-brushed highlights. 

To my eye the bundle looks just about the right size.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
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Posted by arnie60 on Monday, November 24, 2014 10:21 PM

Much, much more natural look. I like it the way it is, but you may feel the need to tweak further, and I agree, they are a bit dark, but not unacceptable. By the time you get done, you will no doubt have yet another mastery under your belt.

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Posted by rwiederrich on Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:05 AM

Furled sails are never perfect.  It's a furled sail.  I have hundreds of images of furled sails and boy there is a huge leap in presentation.  Personally I don't like the texture of filters(I tried them), but yours look good, great job bro.

Rob

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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, November 25, 2014 12:07 PM

Assuming that coffee filters are made of just about the same material as silkspan (they sure look like they are), the "paint/glue" trick eliminates any problem of texture. The fuzziness disappears when the paint and glue dry; the resulting surface is quite smooth.

I should emphasize that I've only used that trick on furled sails. I'm not a fan of set sails, on anything but very large and very small scales. In the past forty years I've made one exception: the sail on my Revell Gokstad ship ( cs.finescale.com/.../1701192.aspx ). I figured it deserved special consideration because (a) the scale was so large (about 1/64), and (b) the sail of the prototype apparently was made of double-layered, dyed wool cloth. Probably a good bit thicker than sails of 800 years later - and back lighting presumably didn't have an effect on what it looked like.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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Posted by Phillip1 on Wednesday, November 26, 2014 7:33 PM

Dave_K,

I have to tell you I am greatly impressed with your paint job on the hull and deck of this model.  It is beautiful!  Both you and docidle have mastered the technique of staining and hi-lighting wooden planks.  I will certainly have to take a lesson from you when I build a wooden sailing ship.  I look forward to your continuing progress.

Phillip1

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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, November 28, 2014 12:47 PM

Thanks, Phillip!

Here's a quick question:

I'm having trouble finding a straight answer online...where do the lower lifts attach to the mast?  Some pics/drawings I've found show the standing end to be looped around the mast, above the yard, then through the yard block, then the mast blocks, then down to deck...

In others, I've seen the standing end lashed to the lower stay above the yard, then following the above route...

Any input?

*UPDATED*

Never mind, I just tied them above the mast head, like the upper lifts...seems legitimate.

Also, I have encountered a huge pitfall of using kit-included rigging line, especially when departing from the manufacturer's rigging plan....I'm running out of line!  And since it's the kit-included stuff, I can't replace it....

I have most of the lines in place, just not belayed yet...with any luck, I'll have enough to run the braces, and then I'll be okay...but all I have left is the thinner of the two lines, so it'll have to do.
Dave

THX

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  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, November 28, 2014 1:47 PM

I think the likeliest rig during that period would start from a block on the lower mast cap, then run through the block at the yardarm, then back to the block on the cap, and down to the deck.

That German drawing shows the lift blocks strapped under the tops. That's also a reasonable possibility - especially if the geometry is such that running the lift to the cap would make the rope chafe on the edge of the top. The block might well be lashed to the first shroud. For it to be lashed to the lower stay seems less likely, but certainly possible.

There's a potential for a snarl up at the yardarm, where the lift block and the topsail sheet block are lashed to the yard at the same place. In the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries the usual solution was to use a fiddle block (aka sister block), with two sheaves. The lift ran through the upper sheave and the topsail sheet through the lower one.

I don't know if the kit includes any fiddle blocks. If not, Syrenshipmodelcompany Ship Models sells nice ones.

The Lavery book on the Susan Constant should explain all this clearly - and if he says something different from what I say, he's right.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, November 28, 2014 2:02 PM

Thanks, John....I got it figured out shortly after my last post...

(there's an edited version of my last post)

Big lesson learned....I think it's time for me to accept the fact that using the line from a kit is a gamble...'specially when trying to add extra lines to the simplified rigging plan.  This is the second time I've come very close to not having enough line to finish a kit.  I always like the quality of the line in Imai kits, so I don't have a problem using it (I can't say the same for any other manufacturer's line)...but it's not like I can get more of the same stuff...I'm actually already using some leftover stuff from the Chebec!  Close call....

I suppose from here on out, I'll be ordering line from somewhere to use for my kits....at least then I can get more, if need be.

By the way, I did use some of my Model Expo line for the shrouds on the Golden Hind...at first I thought it was terrible, but once I removed it from the *spool*, soaked it, and hung it with weights from the garage rafters for a day or so, it proved to be usable...though I may not use their stuff for running rigging...it still has a certain stiffness to it.

Anyway, got a lot of belaying to work on...I'll upload some pics when I get closer to being done!

:)

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  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, November 28, 2014 2:34 PM

One of Murphy's Laws of ship modeling: no matter how much line you buy, you'll run out.

I think ModelExpo gets its line from several sources. The stuff I used most recently (which was several years ago) was on spools with "Mamoli" on it. Mamoli, of course, is one of the worst of the HECEPOB companies, but I liked the look and feel of the thread. I don't know whether ME is still selling it or not.

For my current project I've laid in a supply of CIM line. I haven't tried Syren ine yet, but I intend to order some before I commit to the CIM stuff.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, November 28, 2014 2:42 PM

CIM line?  Is that a brand?

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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, November 28, 2014 3:27 PM

Cottage Industry Models, at www.cottageindustrymodels.com . They offer quite a few different sizes, and will spin it up for you in either direction. They also offer a "sample card" with short pieces of all the sizes and colors.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
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  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, November 28, 2014 5:26 PM

Dave,

I have 8 spools of Imai rigging line if you would like to have them?  I sent you an email to get your address  and they are free.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    June 2012
Posted by arnie60 on Friday, November 28, 2014 6:25 PM

David;

I have bought some of the CIM cordage and was not all that happy w/ it. It is primarily a synthetic fiber and tends to be shiny and "stretchy". Syrene's cordage is a bit more expensive, but is so incredibly nice to work w/. Chuck makes it from a cotton/linen blend thread. It doesn't unravel when you cut an end like the CIM will, and there is a wider range of sizes.. Also, I have found that for making loops to hang from pin rails and the like, you really don't need to use any glue, just soak in water, hang it, shape it, let it dry, then a dot ofCA to glue it to the rail.

The pic below shows how nice it comes out, and no discoloration or shine from using glue.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, November 28, 2014 7:00 PM

Arnie, that makes sense. CIM line does have a synthetic look to it.

I'm  definitely going to order some Syren line. My only reservation, as I mentioned earlier, is that it all appears in the photos to be cable-laid. Fine for eighteenth-century standing rigging, but not for the twentieth-century schooner I'm working on. I'll ask Mr. Passaro if he can spin it up in the other direction.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, November 29, 2014 11:57 AM

Gentlemen,

I don't know how I missed this thread! I love it when someone shows how tremendous a plastic sailing ship can look with a master doing the building.  Your Pelican/Golden HInd is absolutely beautiful!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, November 30, 2014 6:06 PM

Dave,

Very nice work my friend.  I really like it!

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, November 30, 2014 6:57 PM

Aw, thanks, you guys!

You know, the Golden Hind is my 8th model ship build, and I've come to enjoy shipmodeling even more than race car modeling, which I've been doing for 20 years...

Things I've learned along the way have come from reading books, trial and error, and from the advice and support of all the experienced shipmodelers on this forum.  I've pushed myself a little further with each build, to try something new, and to keep expanding my skills during this journey.

It's a shame that we only know each other across the vast distance of these interwebs...there's a lot of cool cats on Finescale that I'd sure like to have a beer with!

8 ship models, since Feb 2012....learned a lot in this short time, and I have a ways to go yet!

Progress update:  Got most of the running rigging finished over this long 6-day holiday weekend...all that remains are the braces, and the anchors and swivel guns...might go ahead and put some rope coils on the pinrails, if I can finally figure out how to get them looking right!

Back to work tomorrow, though, so it may be a while yet before I can call her done...I'll offer up some pics once I reach what I call *completion*...

Dave

P.S.- Love the Syren line, Arnie!  Can't wait to get my hands on some of that material!

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  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, December 1, 2014 9:39 AM

David,

I share the sentiment! I would love to meet everyone here. I did have the honor of meeting John Tilley and his lovely wife two years ago when he took a tour of New England, stopping near my home near Mystic, CT along the way. John, did you ever finish that model of the USS Essex I gave to you?  

Anyway, I love building sailing ships (and all ships for that matter!).  Your work is impressive!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 1, 2014 1:03 PM

Well, I find it difficult to believe that anybody would regard dinner with my wife and me as an honor - but it was a delicious meal with good company in delightful surroundings (Mystic Seaport).

Confession time: that lovely little Model Shipways Essex is still awaiting my attention. In fact, it's the sort of thing I sort of hesitate to put a knife to. Seems almost sacrilegious. It really is something of a museum piece. But I love it - and if those lead fittings have survived this long, they'll probably make it through the rest of our lifetimes.

Already planning a trip to the Northeast for this coming summer (happy thought!) I'm pretty sure we'll actually make it this time - with both my wife and I being retired). Hope your wife can join us next time, Bill.

Speaking of meals in Mystic - anybody traveling there needs to know that Mystic Pizza really is a slice of heaven. Even without Julia Roberts.

And in the unlikely event that anybody on this Forum is going to be in the vicinity of Greenville, North Carolina, please do drop me a line.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
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Posted by GMorrison on Monday, December 1, 2014 3:51 PM

My Greenville days are past; worked on the Wachovia HQ tower down in Winston Salem and passed through often.

It is nice to meet other folks from here. I've met a few.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 2:34 PM

How taut should the yard braces be run?  I'm a little concerned that my stays aren't very tight, and if I put any tension on the braces when I attach them, they'll pull the stays out of line....

D

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Posted by arnie60 on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 3:30 PM

I wouldn't put any more tension on them than you need for them to at least "look" taut. It's not like they are really holding anything other than the yards in place.

I can't imagine that they would effect the stays, but then I am not really familiar w/ the rigging.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 6:54 PM

John,

I look forward to seeing you again! And, I will introduce my wife to you. Mystic Pizza is a well-known local secret!

Bill

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • From: San Antonio, Texas
Posted by Marcus McBean on Friday, December 5, 2014 6:18 PM

Dave,

She is beautiful, you did a wonderful job.  The detail and painting is fantastic.  Looking forward to your next adventure.

Marcus.

  • Member since
    June 2012
Posted by arnie60 on Friday, December 5, 2014 7:01 PM

Exceptional work David! I defy anyone to refer to you as anything less than a master builder at this point. I noticed no heads in the bow. Did they just squat and let it fall between slats?

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Friday, December 5, 2014 9:54 PM

Congrats Dave......really........great build.

Rob

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, December 5, 2014 10:08 PM

A truly outstanding model. The rigging looks great and so do the sails. And your painting techniques are especially outstanding.

Now, if we can just get you to quit claiming you're not a serious scale ship modeler....

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Salem, Oregon
Posted by 1943Mike on Friday, December 5, 2014 10:43 PM

Dave,

An inspiration, as usual, from you. I have both the ETRL Spanish Galleon and the Golden Hind in my stash and viewing your superb work makes me want to dig one of them out of the closet.

I'll always follow your works in progress since they are so inspiring and I learn a bit from the wonderful folks who usually chime in with answers and suggestions to any queries you might have.

What's your next ship?

Mike

Mike

"Le temps est un grand maître, mais malheureusement, il tue tous ses élèves."

Hector Berlioz

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, December 6, 2014 10:16 AM

Thanks for all the kind words!

John, I guess I consider myself to be a somewhat serious scale ship modeler now, despite my efforts to the contrary....though, my definition of *serious* may be different than some.  I do find a certain sense of satisfaction from adding personal touches (improvements) to a kit, but only to a degree.

Mike, if you haven't built an Imai kit before, I very much recommend it.  They are great kits, and I'm actually kinda bummed that I've almost built all of the Imai kits that I like....I have their Mayflower in the stash, but I'll save it for another time.

Speaking of my stash, I went through it last night and considered my next *adventure*....

May not be a surprise to some of you, and it may actually be a disappointment to some of the members out there....but I've decided to have a go at the *Ship-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named*....but for the sake of clarity, I'll name it here:

Heller Soleil Royal.

That kit has many well-known discrepancies, anachronistic features, and various other "problems"...but I think it's beautiful, and it will definitely challenge me.  I'll begin it in January, and I expect I'll finish it sometime in 2025.

One thing that saddens me a little is that the SR is very polarizing, and it brings a bit of a negative bent to the forums when it comes up...and at the very least, there is a cloud hanging over it.

I don't wish to start a thread that will invite negativity, so I don't know if there will be a WIP thread from me...which kinda sucks, because I so enjoy sharing my adventures with everyone here...especially when I need help or advice!

But I do plan on producing a magnificent piece of artistic creation with it, and I'll be very excited along the way.

Perhaps I should just call it a Fictional Vessel Based On 17th Century French Design?

Dave

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     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posted by goldhammer on Saturday, December 6, 2014 1:33 PM

Have never done a sailing ship, but this build is an absolute beauty from my viewpoint.  For the 3 years doing them, you have raised the bar for all of us attempting one.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Saturday, December 6, 2014 1:58 PM

Dave,

You have got to be VERY happy with the way she turned out.  Awesome job bud.  As I said before, the furled sails look so good that I might have to "borrow" your technique down the road.

Now if I just get my hands and fingers to work again, I'll just have to start the Soleil Royal when you start yours.  Either that or the 1/96 Cutty Sark as we discussed earlier.

Are you going to build a case for the GR?

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, December 7, 2014 1:15 AM

Dave, you need to take a good look in a mirror. What you call personal touches are in fact authentic details. Anybody who concerns himself with the leads of lower yard lifts and the various methods of furling sails is a serious scale ship modeler, no matter how hard he tries to deny it.

I'm sure all of us will appreciate a WIP thread on your next project. I wish I could talk you into La Reale, but if you want to tackle the infamous SR that's certainly your business. It looks like I'm in the minority in disliking that kit so intensely.

Tip: get hold of a copy of R.C. Anderson's The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast. It's available in a cheap, paperback edition published by Dover Books. (Note: avoid Dr. Anderson's somewhat later book, Seventeenth-Century Rigging. It's a fine work, but it deals exclusively with English ships.) It's the best book on the subject available. You might as well throw out the Heller rigging diagrams and rely entirely on Dr. Anderson.

But the rigging is a long way down the road if you're just starting. I'm sure we'll all be fascinated to see your painting techniques applied to that kit.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2012
Posted by arnie60 on Sunday, December 7, 2014 11:52 AM

I second Jtilley's motion for you to post a WIP on your upcoming SR build. Striving for historical accuracy is all well and good, but IMHO, this forum is all about sharing your successes and "failures" with others so that we may grow and learn from each other. Ultimately, its all about the process for any serious modeler, and is a very personal experience that is not about pleasing others. So I reiterate, please post.  Wink

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, December 7, 2014 1:46 PM

Well, I'm pleased and relieved to have the blessing of my peers to post a thread of the SR!  It wouldn't be the same if I felt I had to keep it to myself!

I had gone through the stash and narrowed my choice down to three kits:  The big Revell Cutty Sark, the Heller Soleil Royal, or the Heller La Reale...and if I'm being perfectly honest, I tried really hard to convince myself to build the La Reale....but there's a feature of that ship that I don't like, and I need to figure out how to get past it:

The Oars.

For some reason, I just can't dig on a ship with all those oars!  I can't explain it, but they bug me, despite the era of that ship (which is within my preferred timeframe) and the general shape and lines of it....I'll get to building it sometime...but I have to find a way to love it first.  :)

Arnie, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the purpose of this forum, it's about sharing experiences with each other, learning what we can from each other, and trying to grow in our own individual ways.

I picked up Anderson's book a while back, so I'll be spending some great amount of hours reading it before bedtime in the coming months, and I have a lot of planning to do with the SR to decide what additions I'll make to it....which will of course include the usual opening of the quarter galleries, rigging shrouds ratlines deadeyes with aftermarket (probably Syren) parts, etc., and possibly using wood for a portion of the spars.

Anyway, enough of that for now.

Steve- I'm glad you liked the furled sails on the GH...I know they weren't typically furled in that fashion during that time, but as I experimented I found that I really liked the loosely-bundled look, so I went with that.  The technique was a hybrid of things I learned from John TIlley, Rob, and a couple other guys on here...I'd be happy to give you a detailed walkthrough of it, if you go that route with your next sailfurling endeavor.

And you asked a good question about building a case for the GH? Well, truth is I wasn't planning on it.  I have a big glass display case in the *Dave-Cave* that usually houses my current favorite ship model...the Black Swan was the first occupant, followed by the Chebec....and now the GH will take its place on the *throne*... I wish I had the ability to decorate my house with model ships in every room, but alas, Heather will not like that very much!  Some of my previously built ships are in moorage at the in-laws house, uncovered on display shelves, and I have one on my desk at work, and I've given a couple away to friends, even sold a couple....but here's my question:

What does everyone else DO with all their built ship models??  They keep multiplying over here!

I'd love to get a big ol' glass display case with like 3 or 4 shelves so I could keep several of my models in one area of the house...

But I know I'll ultimately need to start looking at building display cases, especially now that I'm becoming more proud of them and wanting to preserve them...I just don't know how to do it?

Dave

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     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, December 7, 2014 3:56 PM

I can't blame you for having a problem with all those oars. They triple the width of the model.

I'll make a couple of points in their defense, though. You don't have to worry about them until the model's almost finished; they won't get in your way during the rest of the building and rigging process. I don't remember how Heller provides for their installation. (It would be a typical Hellerism if they weren't fastened at all.) In any case, it surely wouldn't be hard to figure out a way to make them removable.

With all those oars (which, if I remember right, are painted in spiffy colors), those big lateen-rigged masts, the gold carvings, and those huge flags with gold fleurs de lis all over them, the finished model would have a WOW factor at least as wowy as the SR. And it would be a far better scale model.

I don't have a magic answer to the display problem. Any of the big kits you've mentioned will present that problem. If you don't want to build a case yourself, various companies (e.g., Bluejacket) will be happy to make you one. But it'll cost in the hundreds of dollars. In our house (thank you, I-phone, for trying to change that to "outhouse") we have two nice curio cabinets that are fine for smaller models, but I've never seen one that would hold a three-foot sailing ship.

When I was thinking seriously about La Reale my father (an architect whose aesthetic sense I deeply respected) had an interesting idea: hang it from the ceiling over the dining room sideboard. That would look really neat all right, but the great eternal scourge of sailing ship models, DUST, would rear its ugly head.

One thing I'll guarantee: the concept of displaying a big sailing ship model will get a more positive reaction from your Significant Other than any other genre of big model.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, December 7, 2014 4:26 PM

Please allow me to repeat what everyone else has already said . . . you did an excellent job on your Pelican/Golden Hind.  It would be very difficult to improve upon.

IF you are planning on tackling the Le Soleil Royal, please check out the thread of many years ago titled "Soleil Royal . . . The Ultimate Building Guide".  The various contributors offered tremendous insights into correcting that model.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Sunday, December 7, 2014 9:45 PM

Dave....I am blessed to have a wife who loves my ship models.....I even have an entire den with brick fire place, classic wood and ceiling finished  surfaces........to display my clipper ships in.  My big Cutty Sark gets half of the 5 ft mantle in front of my large *racing home* painting(two clippers racing).  The Glory of the Seas enjoys a nice spot on a wall in the dining room......and my other big CS has an honory place in the guest bedroom.

My Ferriera(AKA CS) has its own built in shelf at the head of the stairs at the landing..next to another large ship painting. Mixed among the den clippers are four other smaller models mixed among my collection of nautical antiques.  My nautical den is an *eye spy* adventure.  I Love it.

The clipper Donald McKay is in my model shop...awaiting further attention.

Is the La Reale the one I gave you?

Rob

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Sunday, December 7, 2014 9:52 PM

To complete my collection..I will need to finish the McKay, then build my other two large models, the Sea Witch and the Swordfish.  I'll probably dash among them the Flying Cloud and the Staghound...of smaller scale.  The challenge will be to combine two CS hulls to create the Great Republic........the ship I will complete my collection with(I hope and think).....heehee.

Anyway......I have seen a guy hang his collection from the ceiling via wire.....looks cool and it frees up shelf space.

Rob

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, December 8, 2014 1:07 PM

Rob,

My wife has graciously allowed me to turn my finished basement into a "Maritime Museum", with most of my ships on display along the walls and in stand-alone cases. I also have dedicated work and storage rooms adjacent to the "museum". I additionally have a den with a display area, and my Model Shipways solid-hull Fair American graces my living room fire place mantle.

I guess that we have terrific wives!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, December 8, 2014 1:50 PM

Don't get me wrong...Heather fully supports my hobby, but I think she and I both agree that turning our home into a maritime shipmodel museum would be a bit much....I think a moderate display of models is appropriate...fortunately, I have full control of décor in the Dave-Cave, but I think 3 ship models and 3 race car models is the maximum....

Yes, Rob, I'm still sitting on the La Reale you gifted me...And I will build it someday...and when I do...I think you'll be proud!  :)

By the way, I brought the GH in to work today, and one of my co-workers offered me 350 bucks for it....but I can't sell it.

He asked if I have others, and I showed him some pics of the Black Swan...he asked if I would sell, I said maybe for 250 bucks...he said "bring it tomorrow, I'll give you 300 dollars."

Wow.  Not sure if I'll go through with it or not, but it would certainly help with my "storage problem" ....and it would help fund my fittings and rigging line for the next build!  

Anybody think I'd be crazy to sell?

Dave

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     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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Posted by rwiederrich on Monday, December 8, 2014 5:33 PM

Sell...sell...sell.   You can, as you said,.....relieve your space and buy more stuff for more projects.  I have sold three 1/96 Connies and two 1/96 CS's and a plethora of smaller builds.  It gets easier the more you do it.

Rob

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, December 8, 2014 5:39 PM

Oh definitely sell. But take lots and lots of pictures of it.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, December 8, 2014 5:43 PM

Boy- someone is a SERIOUS ship modeler!

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Monday, December 8, 2014 9:34 PM

Dave,

I have to agree with Professor T as well as the others, my beautiful wife not only loves the sailing ships I have built, but also the steel ships I have started building.  I am a lucky man.  Right now I have them displayed along the top shelf of my workbench but once I start on the larger ship models, I am going to need to figure out where to put them.

Secondly, I agree with the others, if you sell some of your built models, you will not only have room for more, but have a bit of cash for either "mad money" or for the household expenses.  I know how hard it is to sell them though, you spent a chuck of time and effort on them as well as building them for yourself vs. a client.  In which case, you offer to build a ship for your coworker if they interested.  They buy the model and supplies and you charge for your time.  You get to build another model, make money and not be so attached to it.  Just an idea......

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, December 8, 2014 10:22 PM

I once sold the Heller Le Soleil Royal for over $800.00.  I gave half to my wife and used the other half to buy more kits.

Bill

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Tuesday, December 9, 2014 10:40 PM

Scadoooosh.........

  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 3:43 AM

I don't intend criticism of anybody else; we all have different ways of looking at our hobby (or profession, as the case may be). But personally I've never gotten interested in selling models. One reason is that I work so slowly that we aren't in any imminent danger of running out of space. Another is that I don't like deadlines. (I've had enough of them in my day job over the past 40 years - and in school before that.)

I used to take in model restoration projects, when I was a starving museum curator, but I never enjoyed it much. Quite a few years ago I decided I wanted to build models for fun and for no other reason.

Another reason I don't want to be in the model building business, frankly, is the wild variation in the prices for which models get sold. Yeah, $800 sounds like a lot of money. But if you divide that number by the number of hours you spent on the model, you're getting far less than minimum wage.

On the other hand, there does exist a small classification of people who pay huge sums of money for models. Back when I'd just finished my 1/128-scale model of the Hancock, the gentleman who ran the ship model gallery at Mystic Seaport tried to get me interested in letting him sell it for me. He said he figured he could get at least $15,000 (that's 1983 dollars) for it. Once I got done picking myself off the floor, I asked him what his commission would be. Answer: 40%. I guessed the model had about 1500 hours in it. I couldn't become a professional modeler for that kind of money. After thinking about it for quite a while, I decided to turn him down. My thinking was that, though I was far from a wealthy man at the time (I'd just gotten my teaching job, for $20,000 1983 dollars per year), the time might well come in the future when I'd need that money more than I did then.

Since I've been married, and raising two stepkids, there have been several moments when my wife and I have said "maybe it's time to sell the Hancock." But it's never happened; the model still sits in our den. I confess I've become pretty attached to it (as I suspect some people in this Forum have figured out).

A few months back I talked with my wife about willing it to a certain museum. Her response - to my surprise - was "not unless you can set it up so the museum doesn't get it while I'm alive." That one knocked me out just as effectively as the offer from Mystic did.

At any rate, there are dealers who routinely sell models for tens of thousands of dollars. I always wonder whether the people who buy them really appreciate, or understand, them. Some do. The Kriegstein brothers, owners of the famous Kriegstein Collection, give their models the same tender loving care that the best museums do. Others who play the game (I know of at least one of Donald McNarry's patrons who falls in this category) buy them because they're pretty and they're expensive - and know absolutely nothing about the ships or ship modeling. (The guy I referred to in the previous sentence had trouble pronouncing the names of the ships.) I've got better things to do than be patronized by people like that.

To each his/her own. I don't suggest that there's anything wrong with selling models - especially if you've got a space problem (or if you're now so sick of looking at that model, with all the mistakes you made ten or fifteen years ago, that you just plain want to get rid of it). But the stuff I build - and am proud of - isn't going to leave the Tilley house while I'm around.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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Posted by rwiederrich on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 7:43 AM

Interesting points.  It's ice to see a wife so supportive of your efforts.  However.....I too have several models I'll probably never sell..for similar reasons...on the other  hand Many years ago I did spend a stint of time as a professional ship model builder.....and I sold every model I built...many on commission.

Dollar to time equations in this instance are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned because I derive so much enjoyment that that in of itself is payment..  I also build and sell telescopes.........tackling with the same issues plague me there as well.  In the end it is all still STUFF that no one takes with them when they check out any way.....so Se'Lavea..    Or however that is spelled.

This Hobbie empowers you to do what ever you will, for yourself.....fun fun fun.

My 2 nickles.

Rob

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Salem, Oregon
Posted by 1943Mike on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 11:26 AM

Dave,

If I had half your talent and were ever in a position to sell one of my models ... I WOULD!!

Your reasoning, clearing out space for more kits to work on and display, is a valid one. Also it can't hurt that you'd have a little extra $ to do with as you please.

Rob's philosophy is closest to mine in that it's the enjoyment of the building process that counts ... you can't take it with you is true of anything in these multi-universes (Wink) so SELL, SELL, SELL!

Since this hobby is also a learning process, and the time we have in this universe is limited (Rob, Here's were C'est la vie comes in Wink), I suggest that we keep moving on. Remember:

"Le temps est un grand maître, dit-on, le malheur est qu'il tue ses élèves."
Berlioz
Mike

Mike

"Le temps est un grand maître, mais malheureusement, il tue tous ses élèves."

Hector Berlioz

  • Member since
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Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:39 PM

To your point, Tilley.

Yes, I agree, building models on commission is for me a sure recipe to insanity, even if I improved my skills enough to be able to get any customers,

This is my hobby. I have enough other deadlines in life, and the $ aren't there.

But, if someone has a model they built for fun and they don't really like or want it anymore, do sell it.

I used to throw away all my old airplane models while I was developing my (basic) skills, and I don't regret it because I have some pictures.

If it's a good model, why not?

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 5:17 PM

Concerning the Le Soleil Royal I sold  . . . that was back in the days before I really knew all the problems in the kit and how to correct them. My craftsmanship was good, my research skills were lacking.  Anyway, I wasn't happy with the model, the buyer was a regular customer in the hobby shop in which I worked part time, and he said that he did not care about the accuracy of the ship. He liked it because it was "pretty".  So, I sold it, bought a new one for which my skills were much improved, and I have the ship on display in my basement museum. I am far, far happier with my newer version.

I met someone who, like me, had accumulated hundreds of ship kits throughout his navy career but had built none of them because he was afraid of breakage during transfers.  He was an aficionado of the HECEPOB kits.  So, after retiring from the USN, he tended to his hobby, and he ended up selling some through some store in Boston.  Before too long, he was contacted directly by various businesses who paid very good money for his ships.  To make a long story short, he quit his job and worked full time on his ship models, selling them when he needed money.  His hobby became his job, and he lost interest. He built ship models but he did not enjoy it.

I suppose it depends on what you want, but I am happier keeping this as my beloved hobby!

Bill

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, December 19, 2014 9:17 PM

John,

I am intrigued by your comments concerning the hull below the waterline being coated by a tar-based substance that would logically be very dark in color. I have often thought that, while state-owned ships of the Elizabethan period might be maintained with the traditional tallow-based coating, less wealthy owners might opt for a tar-based coating that would be dark in color. I would imagine that the texture would be thick, perhaps unevenly applied, perhaps even "messy" in appearance. I am curious about any further thoughts you might have.

My oldest grandson, aged 9, has been intrigued with the Mayflower for several years.  We have started building the Revell kit, and I am teaching him as we go.  Your comments here have led me to want to try this approach to that ship.  Your thoughts would be much appreciated!

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, December 20, 2014 2:06 AM

My usual first stop in trying to deal with such issues is the Conway's History of the Ship series. I just checked the relevant volume, Cogs, Caravels, and Galleons: The Sailing Ship, 1000-1650, and found no reference to bottom treatments. So far as I know there's scarcely any hard contemporary evidence on the subject. So I'll have to fall back on that most unreliable of sources, my senile memory.

I've read in several places (don't ask me where) that there were several common bottom treatments prior to the introduction of copper sheathing. I've never read that there was any clear chronological sequence to them; some or all of them probably were in use at the same time. One was a particularly repulsive-sounding concoction containing tar, sulfur, and horse hair (presumably in the hope that shipworms would find it disgusting and indigestible). Another was white lead paint; another was tallow - perhaps applied on top of the white lead. (I imagine tallow applied directly to wood would look like a semi-transparent grease; I figure slapping it on top of a coat of white paint would result in a slightly creamy off-white color.) 

I don't know which of those treatments would be more expensive.

Some of the oldest surviving English ship models have white bottoms. Whether that was an accurate depiction of reality or a model builder's convention I don't know. (A modeler with any aesthetic sense would be turned off by the thought of reproducing that tar/sulfur/horse hair mix.)

There are four genuine surviving ships from the period covered by the Conway book: the Gokstad ship, the Oseberg ship, the Mary Rose, and the Wasa. The two Viking hulls clearly were unpainted except, perhaps, for some decorative carved work. Fred Hocker's book on the Wasa states quite emphatically that no waterline is marked on her, and the wood on her bottom looks just like that of the upper works I've read quite a bit about the Mary Rose, and I've never bumped into any reference to paint or other treatment on her hull.

The bottoms of hulls are rarely visible in old master marine paintings (e.g., those of the Van de Veldes), but I think I've seen some that appear to be white.

Brian Lavery's book, The Construction and Fitting of English Ships of War, says that by the early eighteenth century two coatings were in use: "black stuff" and "dark stuff." Apparently they were about the same as the two I mentioned earlier. Lavery says that "black stuff" rarely shows up in models, but he seems to think it was used more often than "white stuff" in reality. And he suggests that some ships may have had "black stuff" on their bottoms, with a band of white (for looks, I guess) just above and below the waterline.

I think this is one of those questions that don't have good answers. The good news is that you can paint the bottom of your model whatever color you like (though I'd discourage pink and purple), and it's highly unlikely that anybody can say definitively that it's wrong.

I'm afraid I haven't helped much.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, December 20, 2014 10:28 AM

John,

AS usual, it is a pleasure peering into your brain!  The question now turns to finding scale horse hair . . . hmmmm!

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, December 20, 2014 10:58 AM

Well, I guess you could collect what's left on your razor every morning for a few days....Ooops, sorry, forgot.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, December 20, 2014 11:07 AM

Well, I could use the hair trapped in my bath tub drain, but I will never shave my beard!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, December 20, 2014 11:50 AM

Well, now this thread has descended from the merely disgusting to the truly repugnant.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, December 20, 2014 6:47 PM

John,

It's all meant in good humor!

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, December 20, 2014 11:54 PM

Now my strange brain is trying to come up with other model applications for what's found in bathtub drains. Next: belly button lint.

Model car enthusiasts use a product called "Funny Fur." It comes in little plastic shaker bottles. Shake some of that stuff onto the freshly-painted bottom of a sailing ship, and I'll bet you could create a surface that would make any self-respecting 1/96-scale shipworm turn up his nose.

Just had another idea! The inspiration came from a TV commercial. Chia Pets come with little bottles of some concoction that grows moss (or whatever that stuff is). Why not paiint the underwater hull of the model with it?

Oops. That just may be the worst idea anybody's ever had since the night Adolf Hitler's father said to Adolf Hitler's mother, "Come on upstairs, Brunhilde, I'm feeling frisky this evening." I'd better shut this thing down and go to bed.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, December 21, 2014 10:46 AM

John,

All kidding aside, the original question is still valid concerning the texture of that "dark stuff" used to coat the lower hull on those ships so treated.  Somehow, airbrush purity doesn't seem to fit the bill.  So now, my brain is turning over just how to create a convincing concoction.  I guess that it is time to start experimenting!

Bill

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, December 21, 2014 3:03 PM

John had earlier mentioned looking at the replica of the Susan Constant. I also looked at the Mayflower II for painting ideas.  However, we cannot neglect looking at the replica of the Golden Hinde in London, which is much darker than the American replicas.  Granted, these are replicas, but they do convey a sense of the original. Check out www.goldenhinde.com to see what I mean.

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, December 21, 2014 8:58 PM

For my money, a beautiful, uniform, airbrushed finish isn't appropriate for the bottom of any ship - unless you're building one of those stylized, full-hull models that don't purport to be realistic. Even a modern warship starts to show different hues and beat-up spots on the bottom, even before it's launched.

I visualize that tar/horsehair/sulfur mix as a very dark grey - sort of like Lufwaffe Schwarzgrau. If I were doing it, I'd try dry brushing it with various shades of grey, green and brown - all of them pretty dark.

Show us some pictures of what you come up with. I haven't seen many models that try for that effect.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, December 22, 2014 8:37 AM

Hey, waitasec....Did John just bust out a joke?!?

Well done, sir!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, December 22, 2014 10:49 AM

"Regarding your choice of the Soleil Royal - no comment. I've shot off my mouth about that one enough."

John,

I remember your once stating that one can build a decent model out of anything, including a beef bone."  Surely, the Heller Le Soleil Royal is at least as good as a beef bone . . ..  ; )

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 22, 2014 6:43 PM

Bill - Yeah, I suppose that kit is as good a starting point for a serious scale model as a beef bone would be. But the beef bone would be cheaper.

I hope it's understood that that beef bone analogy was semi-serious. An untold number of POWs in the Napoleonic Wars made some spectacular models out of bones. (The only sizable collection of them in the US, so far as I know, is the one at the Naval Academy Museum - a place of pilgrimage for ship model fans.)

Dave - Whazza mattuh? You got something against chia ship models?

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 5:59 AM

John,

Those bone models are beautiful!  And, I wanted to bring a smile to your face.  After all, I did get you to say something somewhat positive about that kit!  Merry Christmas, everyone!

Bill

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 3:10 AM
This model looks sooooo gorgeous... I know you finished it a while ago David, but I wanted to ask - how did you go on about installing the pedestals? I want to mount my 1/147 Connie with two of them like you did, but the keel is just short of 4 mm (model is 63 cm long) and I'm afraid it may become too brittle after digging holes through it (hull halves aren't assembled yet). What kind of bolts did you use to secure the pedestals? Thank you!
  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 8:43 AM

Thanks, rdiaz!

Let's see if I can explain how the pedestals work without confusing you :)

So, once I got the hull halves assembled (but before the decks go in), I drilled tiny holes at the proper spacing in the bottom of the keel, then gradually used larger bits until the holes were wide enough to accommodate the screws (I think they are #8 machine screws)...the screws need to be long enough to reach from the bottom of the display board, through the pedestals, and up into the inside of the hull with ~1/2" length to spare.

In the hull, I took a couple of 1/4" thick wood squares (a couple inches square or so), drilled holes in them for the screws to fit through, and put washers and nuts on to hold the pedestals tight....kinda like a sandwich!

It's true, the keel is way too thin to hold the model up with any stability, so I use long screws through wooden blocks to hold it all together...the top *forks* of the pedestals are held tightly up against the hull on either side of the keel, and the small wooden blocks inside push down on the hull, and that's what keeps everything pinched.

Hope that makes sense!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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Posted by rdiaz on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 9:04 AM

Yeah, that makes sense, thank you very much! Guess the danger of snapping the keel would be even less if I make carefully aligned "half holes" on each part before they are put together?

My idea was indeed to fit wood or styrene blocks inside the hull for the screws to bite into; but the part I'm most afraid of is drilling through the thin plastic keel with my spiral hand drill, even if I start with tiny holes and then go up in size.  The width of remaining styrene around the holes might be less than 1 mm, quite thin. I guess if I mess up I can always fix with some putty...

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 9:59 AM

It's true, the keel thickness is likely not equal to the width of the screws...I've had slight *chipping* when the bits get to right size, but fortunately it was contained within the area that was covered by the pedestals forks, so any missing keel material is invisible (at least on my models)...

I'm sure you'll have no trouble getting good results.

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 10:09 AM

Thanks David. The idea of using long nails, or brass or steel rod rather than screws, so I can drill smaller holes, has also crossed my mind - that might work to avoid chipping.

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 2:51 PM

How about epoxying small nuts inside the hull along the keel to accept machine screws?Should work.

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 5:27 PM

That could do, but 2 mm screws that are at least 5 cm long are hard, if not impossible to find. Anything with bigger diameter and chances of keel snapping or chipping will increase tremendously. I'll see what I can come up with. I'd start a build log but I'm afraid my lack of skill would make it rather uninteresting :p

Thanks!

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 8:44 PM

They have them a Lowe's in the special hardware sections.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 11:34 PM

There's really no great trick to drilling a hole in the bottom of a plastic hull - though the whole job will be a lot easier if you do it before or right after gluing the hull halves together. Start with a small drill - say 1/16". Use an electric drill or, better yet, a Dremel tool; the bit is less likely to crack the plastic if it's spinning fast (though not fast enough to melt the plastic). With a small hole in place you can enlarge it with a larger bit, a file, or even an Xacto knife.

It's vital that the screws (or whatever else you're using to secure the pedestals) have something solid to go into. Last time I had such a project I super-glued a pair of nuts to the underside of the deck (lining them up carefully with the holes in the keel). I stuck pieces of plastic to the deck next to the nuts, to make absolutely sure the latter wouldn't come loose. If that's not practical for your model, Dave's idea of sticking a piece of wood inside the hull will work just as well (provided you don't intend to take the screws out too often). Just make sure the wood is really stuck.

Another problem you're going to have, if you use commercially-available pedestals, is that the slots in them will be too wide. You can glue little pieces of brass, styrene, or wood (the harder the better) to the side of the keel to make the pedestals fit. When they're trimmed to length, they'll barely be noticeable.

Hope that helps a little. Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 11:56 PM

Good advice, John.

And at the end of the day whatever happens down there is usually not too noticeable.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 2:18 AM

Thank you very much for the insight, jtilley. I've found brass pedestals with a keel slot that is 3,8 mm - just about right. I think Amati makes them. I have no Dremel nor money for one right now, but maybe I could use a small round file to make the hole before the hull halves are assembled together.

Philo426, I'm from Spain, so no Lowe's - but I'll keep looking Thanks a lot!

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 9:10 PM

Any second-had appliances places (especially ones that do repairs)?  

Back before Dremel came in variable speed we would find plug-in sewing machine pedals to control them.  That, and a regular corded drill can get you closer than hand filing.

Oh, and your English is most commendable--far better than my Spanish.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Thursday, January 29, 2015 8:03 PM

Another option if I may intercede, is the method I am using on the Nina and Pinta. I drilled holes in the keel and then used screw/bolts for holding the model in place. Covering the nails are brass tubes that are the same width as the keel. I then cut the tubes to the desired height, slip them over and epoxy the top portion of the screw that will be inside the model.

The base is bass wood stained light. Since the Nina and Pinta were simple merchant ships, I chose a base that was simple so as to not take away from the models.

I have used brass pedestals on other models I have done when the scale is appropriate.  You can ruin the overall effect of a beautifully built model if the stand or pedestals are too large or too small.

You can also see that the keel cracked a bit just behind the forward hole, but a little green putty, sanding and repainting made it disappear.

Just my one cent.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Friday, January 30, 2015 1:08 AM

Great stuff, docidle! I'm also building the Pinta and finished Revell's Santa Maria a few weeks ago (my first ship model). Might experiment with mounting the Pinta this way...

The Constitution is 630mm long including bowsprit and spanker boom, so I think the 26/29 mm pedestals (with 3'8mm slots) will be fine.

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