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Tha General Lee , Ironclads and Figures

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  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Tuesday, July 7, 2015 3:43 PM

stikpusher

GMorrison

tankerbuilder

       I don't want to see us , as a group of modelers and as a nation , become the laughing stock of the world . We are not far from it now . I say let the people decide ...

37-3 in the SC State Senate. Senator Pinckney of course was not able to vote.

............. kill our own, but not for others?

IMHO..............That isn't the reason.
Dunno if the reason is related to whatever reason GM mentioned about a larger issue being the big reason; just not the reason.Wink
.
BTW............did tankerbuilder ever mention if he does scale figures? 
  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, July 7, 2015 3:34 PM

One other thing is that the pot really got stirred on this one, to deflect attention from a larger issue that also impacts what Stik said. And THAT one will get you banned here.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Corpus Christi, Tx
Posted by mustang1989 on Tuesday, July 7, 2015 3:29 PM

stikpusher
. Right now at work I see lots of shooting and killing by people among their own ethnic groups and yet hardly a peep in the news about it as the body count grows. Where is the outrage on that? It's okay for us to kill our own, but not for others?

News like this sells and in the end it's all about ratings and money. I've found that if something looks a little funky like what you're describing here, put a $ sign on the other side of it and suddenly.....it all falls together. In short........there's your answer.

                   

 Forum | Modelers Social Club Forum (proboards.com) 

  • Member since
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Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, July 7, 2015 3:27 PM

Certainly a much bigger and immediate problem. I'm afraid of the answer for that, but it often goes something like "whats so bad about undesirables killing each other?", until something happens as just did in SF.

37-3 is the will of the majority I am sure, that's just way too one-sided.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, July 7, 2015 3:22 PM

GMorrison

tankerbuilder

       I don't want to see us , as a group of modelers and as a nation , become the laughing stock of the world . We are not far from it now . I say let the people decide ...

37-3 in the SC State Senate. Senator Pinckney of course was not able to vote.

40 is not the state population. Merely 40 elected representatives who sometimes vote as the majority of their constituents wish, and sometimes do not. I have no dog in this fight, but I do see both sides of the issue.I served under the Stars and Stripes and proudly wore that on my shoulder overseas. I think that we have bigger problems to worry about today than this one. Right now at work I see lots of shooting and killing by people among their own ethnic groups and yet hardly a peep in the news about it as the body count grows. Where is the outrage on that? It's okay for us to kill our own, but not for others?

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, July 7, 2015 3:09 PM

I was incorrect in assuming that if the Union Jack were to fly at the US Capitol there would probably be no protests.

When the Queen visited in 1991, if the flag was flown, it would have been as a courtesy.

But, protesters were abundant. One of our Congressmen, man by the name of Kennedy, boycotted the address over the issue of Northern Ireland. And protesters were on hand to disagree with Britain's position at that time that sanctions against Apartheid South Africa be relaxed.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, July 7, 2015 3:04 PM

tankerbuilder

       I don't want to see us , as a group of modelers and as a nation , become the laughing stock of the world . We are not far from it now . I say let the people decide ...

37-3 in the SC State Senate. Senator Pinckney of course was not able to vote.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Tuesday, July 7, 2015 2:58 PM

tankerbuilder

       Supppose I did figures ? that mean in certain types of vignettes the Union flag can be displayed , but the Confederate one cannot ?   These are questions that will pop  up , I am sure . What's the Answer here ?

   

Hmmmm......................guess they'll hafta redo some of the CGI for movies like:

Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter  

and

Abraham Lincoln vs. Zombies

Whistling

Wouldn't want anyone to get any incorrect info about the American Civil WarWink

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, July 7, 2015 2:17 PM

I'd like if I may to go back to a couple of points that were raised earlier. (History teachers can't resist doing this sort of thing now and then. If the moderators delete this post, I'll understand.)

The statement that only a small percentage of men in the Confederate Army owned slaves is certainly true. In 1861 about half of white Southern families owned slaves. Of the slave-owning families, 88% owned fewer than 20, 72% owned fewer than 10, and 50% owned fewer than 5. Too many people get their images of the Old South from one source: Gone With the Wind. Big plantations like "Tara" did exist all right, but only in a narrow swath of the South (the "cotton belt"). Subsistence-level farms, which only grew enough for the family to eat, were the norm in most of the South.

Slavery was, however, absolutely vital to the Southern economy. The vast fields of cotton - almost the only cash crop the South exported - could not have functioned without a huge source of cheap, unskilled labor. Plenty of white Southerners had never laid eyes on a slave, and could only dream about being able to afford one. But the "land of the moonlight on the magnolias, where knighthood was still in flower" couldn't survive economically without slavery. Southern politicians knew that.

The big political issue that split the Union was the issue of whether slavery should be permitted to expand beyond the South, into the newly acquired territories. GMorrison was kind enough to provide a link to the SC Ordinance of Secession. One of the big arguments in it is that  "A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man [Lincoln] to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery."

There's just no room for argument: slavery was a major - probably the major - cause of the Civil War. I agree with the late Bruce Catton: without slavery the issues might have been resolved peacefully. Slavery could not.

Why did men join the armies? The best study of the subject is a small book by the great Civil War historian James McPherson, called What They Fought For, 1861-1865. Professor McPherson spent years traveling around the country, reading every personal letter by every Civil War soldier in every archive he could find.

He was a little surprised by what he found: lots and lots of soldiers did mention why they thought they were fighting. Dr. McPherson then counted the number of letters that mentioned each reason, and compiled a data base.

The most common reason for joining the Union Army: "to preseve the Union." (Quite a few Union soldiers mentioned freeing the slaves, but that wasn't the most common.) The most common reason for joining the Confederate Army: to "drive out the Yankee invaders and to protect our rights." Another popular Southern answer: "For my state." Scarcely any Southern soldiers mentioned "defending slavery."

Very interesting. But Professor McPherson rightly observes, in his introduction, the basic problem with his research. He was able to find letters from about 600 soldiers (somewhat more Union than Confederate). Six hundred men, out of a total of about two million in the Union Army and 900,000 in the Confederate Army. Any good historian, sociologist, or statistician will tell you that sample is statistically insignificant.

We just don't know why the huge majority of them fought.

I'm not a Civil War specialist, but I've been reading about the subject for well over fifty years. I've visited my share of museums and battlefields. And on several occasions I've felt like I've really come to an understanding of the topic. Then I take a look at that one, overwhelming number: 618,000. That's the number of Civil War graves. (Two-thirds of those guys died of disease, not bullets.)

When I drive through one of the big Civil War cemeteries, like Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond, I realize the truth: I don't understand why those people fought each other on such a scale. And I never will.


Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Sunday, July 5, 2015 11:44 PM

GMorrison

And in other news, on June 17th the Supreme Court upheld the argument of the Solicitor General of the State of Texas to not issue license plates with the flag.

I recall an attorney on the local radio station discussing the case at the time but I hadda stop at the local Illinois Tollway HQ and exchange my old tollway x-ceiver for a new version- thus mussing much of the discussion.
 
  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, July 5, 2015 11:02 PM

And in other news, on June 17th the Supreme Court upheld the argument of the Solicitor General of the State of Texas to not issue license plates with the flag.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, July 5, 2015 10:43 PM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

Re-read by post G. I didn't say anything nor mention Union Jack being flown on US soil. I merely made a statement of our history's past.

The point Cody made was to question why we haven't "banned" the Union Jack, and you agreed. In the context of this conversation, "banned" seems to mean a decision by the people of the State of SC (pending) to not fly the flag at the State Capitol. Which of course is not a "ban" of the flag, but that doesn't seem to be sticking to the wall here.

So my response makes sense.

Dr. Tilley I don't have any idea about that. My mistake. I'd suspect however that it did not fly there for 38 years if at all, and probably no one protested.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, July 5, 2015 1:04 PM

I'm not sure, but I believe the Union Jack and/or the Royal Standard may have flown over the Capitol - at a lower height than the U.S. flag - when Queen Elizabeth II was addressing a joint session of Congress. I'm not sure about that, though.

Here in Greenville, NC, we have a Town Common on the bank of the Tar River. The common has several memorials on it - including a small sculpture honoring the Vietnam dead. There are also six flagpoles. I didn't pay much attention to them until recently, but I believe they included the American flag, the current North Carolina state flag, the British Union Jack, the Confederate first national flag, and the POW/MIA flag ("you are not forgotten"). I don't remember what the sixth one was. The idea was to remind passersby of the history of the the town and county. Personally, I have no problem with that idea.

I can't say for certain just what those flags were, because when I've driven by the Town Common during the past couple of weeks the poles have been empty. I have no idea why. It may have been due to the weather (which has been pretty wet recently), or maybe the flags wore out and the city is waiting for replacements. Nor do I know just when the flags came down. (It may have been quite awhile ago. I can't claim to have noticed.) But it does seem a little odd. [Edit on July 7 - I drove past the Town Common again yesterday, and all the flagpoles were still empty. I repeat: I don't know why. I'm going to try to find out.]

For what it's worth - back when I was teaching freshman-level U.S. history I gave a survey at the beginning of the semester to find out how much the students knew about the subject in the beginning. One question was "In what year did the American Civil War end?" Fewer than 10% got the right answer. Another: "Against what nation was the United States fighting in the War of 1812?" Fewer than 50% got the right answer - and of those who tried to write "Britain," about 30% couldn't spell it.

One of my favorite teacher anecdotes: Two teenagers went to visit their grandmother, and started leafing through her scrapbook. They came to a photo of her in her WWII WAVES uniform.

One teenager: "Why Grandma! I never knew you were in the military!"

Grandmother: "Yes, I served in the WAVES."

Other teenager: "That's cool. It's just a shame you lost the war."

Grandmother: "What do you mean we lost the war?"

Both teenagers: "Well, aren't you from the South?"

Some people don't believe that story. I do.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Sunday, July 5, 2015 12:05 PM

Re-read by post G. I didn't say anything nor mention Union Jack being flown on US soil. I merely made a statement of our history's past.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, July 5, 2015 10:09 AM

“All men ARE created equal, I believe that so I will be painting the American flag over the roof of the General Lee #USA”

- Bubba Watson

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Sunday, July 5, 2015 10:08 AM

Regarding the comment:  "the South will rise again" ; it isn't gonna happen unless those in favor of it suddenly have an enormous baby boom. 

As far as I can tell from all the bad reviews about MPC kit quality, the best thing that could have happened to sales of MPC General Lee kits was for someone to say it would be withdrawn from the shelves because Warner Brothers was canceling the license to market DOH items.

Seems all too often these days that some sectors of our economy don't  "pick up"  unless somebody whispers the word : "shortage ".

I see it happen with modeling items such as Mr. Surfacer.

...and I can't help wonder if some of this occurs because a few noted the sales spike of some items that occurred after the 2008 elections.

.

Or am I getting cynical in muh old age...............Whistling

Tags: Mr Surfacer
  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, July 5, 2015 9:27 AM

Black sheep I have no idea what your point is. You will never see the British flag fly over the US Capitol, for the very reasons you give.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, July 5, 2015 9:24 AM

Thanks Cody, and I threw a couple mud balls too.

My appreciation of the South Carolina situation is that it's State ground, not Federal ground. It's been contentious there for a long time. Events have tipped the balance, and as became obvious here, a lot of pent up emotion has been released.

The CNN poll has been completely distorted. It's results fall pretty much in line with the editorial in the Elm. A majority of people in this country probably do recognize that the flag is a symbol of Southern pride. That is much different though than what someone said here- and I get the threads confused- that "they" i.e. a majority of people polled "look at it fondly as a symbol". Heck, I would have answered yes to the first, but a very emphatic no to the second.

I'd politely take issue with your position that people protesting it's display on State ground  "only" or "just" see it as a symbol of slavery. Maybe, but in fairness and the poll supports this, slavery is among the things people see. Did slavery exist as an institution under earlier versions of our national flag? Yes? Did it get eradicated under that same flag? Yes. Was that a painful process? Of course. But that legitimizes the flag. Pledge of Allegiance here, please.

The CSA went down swinging over the concept. And hearing comments as we do like "the South will rise again" scares the heck out of people used to being discriminated against.

It was raised over the SC State House  for the single reason of being a single digit response to school integration, and that's the context in which it now gets judged. Even the excuse "anniversary of the war" gives that away. The war, the one fought to keep slavery. And that is in black and white in the document I linked earleir.

Citizens of SC got it right, their Governor got it right, and it's go away to the museum where they think it belongs.

The model car thing is stupid. but then corporate think usually is. It probably makes that model much more popular than it ever deserves to be.

I am emphatic about sticking this conversation out as a history reader. Politics aside, sometimes it feels like either on the radio or cable, historic facts just get so mutilated that nothing makes sense any more.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Sunday, July 5, 2015 9:05 AM

Valid points there Cody. I was going to mention Union Jack going back to the colonial times too. It's funny and sad to say the least that folks forget our 13 original colonies were under British rule. Lets not forget about the War of 1812, too. Funny how folks get a knee jerk over trivial/controversial subjects of our nation's history.

  • Member since
    December 2013
Posted by CodyJ on Sunday, July 5, 2015 3:28 AM

There is  point here Morrison...  I thought that was a decent article, especially considering this woman is OBVIOUSLY not from the US.  I thought it was obvious that I was proving a point by citing her.  She is an award-winning journalist from India.  Having a view point from a person who probably is least likely to swing to the right or left seemed prudent.

I also thought Washington College's explanation was well put too.

About the Dingle-berry, my apologies.   You are correct there was no need for that.   I feel if someone sees the Stars & Bars as just a symbol of slavery they really are not seeing the entire picture.  There really is more behind it.  As far as removing from Federal ground, I get that.  However when Dukes of Hazzard is bombed....   which makes no sense to me at all considering there were no racist actions in it.  In fact the Sheriff from the other county was a Black fellow.  Met him at the Portland Roadster show and got a signed pic.  He said the show was the most fun he ever had in his career.

It just is going too far.  If we all went by this ideal then we should ban any English flags.  After all people are saying the Star & Bars are a symbol of oppression.  In that case the old English colors are a sign of oppression too.  Considering that's how many of us ended up in America in the First place.   Oppressed by the British.  But oh no, there is a different set of rules there.

  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Saturday, July 4, 2015 11:26 PM

A great discussion thread but I'm gonna end my convos here with IBTL. :)

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Saturday, July 4, 2015 9:09 PM

Will tankerbuilder recognize this thread when he next views it? 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Saturday, July 4, 2015 7:50 PM

I knew someone who owned a Chevrolet Citation X-11 but he was very unhappy with it.

As I recall, I do not remember anyone who was happy with an American car design from that era.Hmm

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, July 4, 2015 7:46 PM

I had a Plymouth Duster, it was a metallic Cinnamon color. No love whatsoever for that car.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Saturday, July 4, 2015 7:35 PM

Both General Lee posts are "neck and neck" .in the stretch and we still haven't heard if anyone likes orange Dodge Chargers or prefers another colour................Whistling

.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, July 4, 2015 6:48 PM

I get all my History from Rohini Mohan LOLs.

I'll got with Washington College's take.

Name calling sucks by the way.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Saturday, July 4, 2015 10:00 AM

HmmGuess we weren't the only ones talking about the DOH Charger:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/06/feel-general-lees-confederate-flag/

  • Member since
    December 2013
Posted by CodyJ on Friday, July 3, 2015 8:58 PM

Since some Dingle-Berries think the the only thing the Flag stands for is slavery......There is more behind it.

"In modern times, many Southerners still continue to use the flag, as they believe it represents the distinct development and uniqueness of the Southern culture. They believe it's a part of their right to free speech and expression. However, the collateral damage the Confederate flag being displayed, is that some feel disrespected and racially targeted. Symbols of the Confederacy, are still in use and have become an issue of dispute, which crops up every now and then across the United States. In the 1990s, many Southern state legislatures attempted to allow the use of the Confederate flag as a part of its political and civic heritage, since they consider it a part of the American history and do not view the flag as a representation of racism or any form of superiority."

-Buzzle.com (History Site) by Rohini Mohan

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The original flag of the Confederacy was not what we know as the Confederate flag today. It was the Stars and Bars, a flag that looked extremely similar to the U.S. flag. While Southerners did want to abandon the Union, they were reluctant to abandon their flag. The only problem was that in a battle they could not tell which flag was U.S. and which was Confederate, leading to some obvious problems.

The solution was the creation of two flags, one as the battle flag, and one the parade flag. The battle flag that was adopted is what we now know as the Confederate flag, the only difference being that it was square, not rectangle. The battle flag gained widespread popularity and was later incorporated into a new national Confederate parade flag.

After the war, organizations like the United Daughters of the Confederacy adopted the flag as their symbol. While the battle flag was never the national symbol of the Confederacy, it has come to be recognized as such.

White Southerners saw the flag as a symbol of heritage and dignity. The “good old boy” connotations are attributed to Ole Miss football games and to distinguish Southern troops during WWII from their Northern counterparts. As for hate groups like the Ku Klux Klan, they did use the flag, but they did not give it its blatantly racist connotation. That emerged during the integration of Southern universities.

You can also blame the Dixiecrats for the racist implications of the Confederate flag. The Dixiecrats were a party made up of anti-integration college students who co-opted the flag as their standard. The image of Dixiecrats fighting the National Guard while waving Confederate flags became branded into the national psyche. And so, the flag became tied to racism."

-The Elm Washington College


  • Member since
    December 2013
Posted by jetmaker on Friday, July 3, 2015 8:32 PM

GMorrison

IT'S ALL HIS FAULT!!!

Nice! Big Smile

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Friday, July 3, 2015 8:29 PM

LOL..........

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