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Tha General Lee , Ironclads and Figures

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, July 3, 2015 11:30 AM

The Confederate flag has not been "banned." "General Lee" kits have not been "banned." No book, movie, or TV show having to do with the Civil War has been "banned." No government entity has demonstrated any inclination to "ban" anything. And no non-government entity has the legal power to do such a thing.

My favorite model genre is sailing ships. Over the past twenty years or so, plastic sailing ship kits have virtually disappeared. The manufacturers quit making them, and the stores quit selling them, because they didn't sell.

I regret that situation. But I don't claim there's been a "ban" on plastic sailing ship kits. The Constitution doesn't give me a right to buy the kind of kits I want - and it doesn't guarantee me a right to buy a Confederate flag at Wal-Mart.

P.S. I have a stereo system. And over the past 200+ years the Supreme Court has issued quite a few rulings with which I disagree. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    April 2015
  • From: Detroit, MURDER CITY
Posted by RudyOnWheels on Friday, July 3, 2015 10:50 AM

Hey Gmorrison, do you know who upheld the fugitive slave act? Your beloved Supreme Court!

  • Member since
    February 2014
  • From: Michigan
Posted by silentbob33 on Friday, July 3, 2015 9:57 AM

Well said jtilley. I too haven't read anything about the government trying to ban anything. I would also think the Supreme Court would rule any such ban as unconstitutional.  I also agree with you on a waning interest. I'm a high school history teacher, responsible for teaching 1877 to the present. The timeframe that most students start paying attention to is World War II and then it drops off again until the civil rights movement/Vietnam War era.  I agree with you that we should take a step back and look at what is happening objectively.

On my bench: Academy 1/35 UH-60L Black Hawk

  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Friday, July 3, 2015 9:23 AM

Jetmaker - don't get me wrong I and everyone get it. The media tends to be the root of all evil when reporting the news whenever a ban takes effect on certain frivolous things (confederate flag for example). With that being said, stores like Walmart and Hobby Lobby (who I despise their Christian points of views of certain subjects) feel the need to jump the gun and follow suit in the ban. This is where it's wrong. They're nothing but sheeple with our government and would do anything to uphold their Christian beliefs.  

BTW - I am Catholic and not anti-Christian.

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Orlando, Florida
Posted by ikar01 on Friday, July 3, 2015 9:01 AM

The other day I was telling someone at work bout the quadrophonic systems and the battle they had with stereo. In those days a decent speaker could cost as much as a couple hundred dollars, a lot of money back then, and these things needed four of them.

I run an 8 track receiver at work in my room and have two different types of speakers attached.  One is a regular rectangular type and the other is an old Bose circular type that in its day cost well over a hundred dollars.  I picked everything up for about 40 dollars in a thrift shop.  

I have had customers come into my room and some just stare while others stand and remember that they had that same tape.  I have one from American Motors, Chrysler and a couple other car companies.  Back then when you bought a car, usually a luxury type with a built in player they would give you a couple tapes to get you started.  Us poorer people would have to buy a separate deck, bolt it into the underside of our metal front console and wire the thing into the cars electrical and speaker systems.  Later you could buy a cassette adapter for your 8 track

I have an 8 track recorder at home that I use to record the tapes because there's some recordings that have never been released since then and some of them have had their content changed.  I have an original concert on 8 track and the CD is missing a couple songs.

I just got back some records that were at my brother in laws house.  The soundtracks of Dark Shadows and Victory at Sea, all three volumes.  I also have a couple other albums here that I haven't gotten around to transferring onto disc yet.

I still have the first front loading video tape player to hit the market.  It's from Sony and plays Beta tapes, of which I have several because it was the format of choice in Okinawa.  I was going to transfer some of the rare movies onto DVDs but my recorder stopped working and I have ot get another one.

Then there's cars and how much they cost before the government got involved and how they were equipped.....

  • Member since
    December 2013
Posted by jetmaker on Friday, July 3, 2015 6:06 AM

Last month, in Chicago, alone, 34 black people were murdered. Several between the age of 15 to 21

Yet, because of an isolated, and very rare, incident, caused by a mentally deranged individual, there has been somewhat of a national obsession over a banner that hasn't been in service as anything more than a historical decorative for 150 years

If a growing group of people with burgeoning and tangible political power, using the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia as their banner, starts calling for lynching black people and those sympathetic or friendly with black people, or if a similar group, also with tangible power, uses the swastika and calls for genocide against the Jewish people, then we have a serious problem. Until then, if seeing either symbol on a plastic model makes you nervous - whether you're black or Jewish or whatever - I suggest taking a deep breath, maybe even a Xanax, and try working through your personal issues. Or just let it go. It will be fine

In the meantime, maybe we can take some of the misplaced outrage and try to figure out why we don't want to seriously discuss the reasons for the insanely outrageous murder rate of black youths in America's cities

All I see in this ridiculous flag debate is sore losers and sore winners. The American Civil War was a battle for this country's soul, and over 600,000 paid with their lives - almost as many as have died in every other American war combined. Maybe slavery in the US ended with that? I don't know. In a debt-driven economy maybe slavery just looks different? Again, I don't know. But I wonder who the families of those killed in Chicago last month thinks won?

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, July 3, 2015 12:44 AM

Let's step back a bit and review some facts.

To my knowledge nobody in any position of authority, and certainly no government official, has seriously suggested banning anything. The South Carolina state legislature has put the question of the flag outside its statehouse on its agenda, and it looks like the measure to remove the flag probably will pass. (Among those favoring removal of that flag is Republican State Sen. Paul Reynolds Thurmond, son of U.S. Sen. Strom Thurmond.) The issue under discussion is not whether the Confederate flag(s) should be banned in some way, but whether it's appropriate for such a flag to fly next to a government building where a legislature that represents all the people of the state holds its meetings. 

The leap from a proposal in the SC Legislature, regarding one flag on one pole, to movies, TV shows, re-enactments, books, and even plastic kits is a mighty big leap.

TV Land (which, drat it, our cable company doesn't carry) decided for its own reasons to quit showing "The Dukes of Hazard." I'm not party to TV Land's executive decisions, but I've seen no evidence that any government entity had anything to do with that one.

My strong suspicion (supported by this thread) is that the disappearance of "General Lee" kits from hobby shop shelves is due simply to the sudden popularity of the kit. The 1/16 kit is currently sold by Round 2 Models. I don't know much about Round 2, but on the basis of its website I have the impression that it orders limited runs of old kits and sells them, through a single wholesaler, till they're gone. (Three of my favorites, the old Inpact Flycatcher, Fury, and Bulldog, have vanished from the website.)

I took a look on the Round 2 site at the photos of the "General Lee" kit. Only one of those photos shows the model's roof. There's no flag on it. (What's on the decal sheet I have no idea.)

One of Round 2's latest announcements is that it's bringing back the MPC 1/25 kit of the "General," the Civil War locomotive - operated by a Confederate railroad - that was taken by Union forces for part of one day in the "Great Locomotive Chase." I may buy that one - mainly because I find steam engines fascinating and there are so few locomotive kits that aren't intended for operation on a layout.

I haven't read anything in any serious news source about any suggestion by any governmental agency at any level to "ban" any movie, book, model, TV show, or anything else. If companies like Wal-Mart, K-Mart, etc. have decided to quit selling particular pieces of merchandise, they do so not because somebody has ordered them to but for the same reason they do virtually everything else: because it makes sense in terms of money. That's not political correctness; that's capitalism.

The other day I went down to Kinston, NC and visited the C.S.S. Neuse Civil War Interpretive Center - a first-rate new museum that's operated by the State of NC. Several Confederate flags were to be seen in the building. The people who work there tell me that nobody has even remotely suggested that anything should be done about those flags. The same is true of Bentonville Battlefield, the other Civil War site near here.

I've been teaching college students about the Civil War/War Between the States for forty years, on both sides of the Mason/Dixon Line. I find the rapid change in public viewpoints on the subject extremely interesting from the historical standpoint, but it's way too early to analyze just why that change has happened at this particular time. 

The 1861-1865 Unpleasantness was one of the key events in the history of the United States. It certainly deserves to be remembered and studied in depth. (And it has been. Books about the Civil War have been coming out at an average rate of about one per day since 1865 - with no letup in sight.) But on the basis of what I see in the classroom (and on essay exams), I think I can state with some confidence that the war is not a topic of particular interest to the vast majority of Americans. (Those students, let it be noted, are not a representative cross-section of American society. They've all graduated from high school, and their SAT/ACT scores are high enough to get them into college. And at the beginning of a freshman-level survey course in U.S. history, about 90 percent of them can't tell me the year in which the Civil War ended.) To most Americans, no movement to forget about the Civil War is necessary. It's already happened.

I think that's a deplorable, frightening situation. But surely the solution to the problem is to consider the facts objectively (I do think that can be done), rather than by spreading stories that are either hyperbole or outright urban legends.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Friday, July 3, 2015 12:29 AM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

Barnes and Nobles had them. Brings back fond memories. Wanna confuse them more? Show them what an 8 track is and how it works. then ease them down to a cassette tape and VHS tape and VCR.

A few years ago, a someone drove his late 1950s Chrysler to a local car show.

The car had a 45 RPM record player!

I was amazed such a thing survived all these years.

Oh, yes.

Don't forget the Laser disk and the RCA version that played like a long play record.

I still see both types of video disk on racks at the local half Price Books.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, July 3, 2015 12:00 AM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

Do you know how many Civil War movies has been out? Glory, North and South, Gods and Generals, etc....

Ate they going to be banned too? Sounds like 1984 to me.

You can't be serious! No one but no one is asking for that. 75% of the people in South Carolina think it should not be displayed on state property except in a museum. It was put up in 1962 to protest desegregation. It was used by the KKK.

Go back and read the post I put up a while ago, the statement of Secession by the State of South Carolina. Their issue was that they wanted their runaway slaves back as they represented stolen property. And that flag is the symbol of that treason, there's just no getting around it.

Spare us the semantics about "it's the battle flag", it's the square one" etc. To any observer, it's the symbol of the Confederacy, a failed evil that is best sent to the scrap heap of bad ideas.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Thursday, July 2, 2015 10:30 PM

Barnes and Nobles had them. Brings back fond memories. Wanna confuse them more? Show them what an 8 track is and how it works. then ease them down to a cassette tape and VHS tape and VCR.

A funny prank I pull on my mom when she was in the nursing home. She had a VCR/DVD combo player in her room. The first year I bought her first DVD movie. I explained to her that she gonna need a DVD Rewinder if she was going to watch the movie again. The look on her face was priceless for she thought I was serious. I had her so wound up I finally bust out laughing. Yeah,  that was cold. LOLOLOL!!!

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, July 2, 2015 10:13 PM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

Don't confuse the kids and try to explain what's a stereo is. LOL!

I wonder if the kids are buying any of those expensive LPs I see in stores, these days.
Tags: AMC Javelin
  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Thursday, July 2, 2015 10:05 PM

Don't confuse the kids and try to explain what's a stereo is. LOL!

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, July 2, 2015 10:01 PM

GMorrison

Does anyone say stereo any more?

Hmm
Now that I think of it, what do people say now? 
Tags: AMC Javelin
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, July 2, 2015 9:59 PM

ikar01

.............................. the Dukes of Hazard series.  I expect the DVD sets will go away too, very soon.  

I checked the local Half Price books...............no DVD sets in stock.
Probably see 'em on evil bay soon....................
.
I, for one, would much rather have a re-pop of the 1/25 AMC Javelin.
Tags: AMC Javelin
  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Thursday, July 2, 2015 9:40 PM

Do you know how many Civil War movies has been out? Glory, North and South, Gods and Generals, etc....

Ate they going to be banned too? Sounds like 1984 to me.

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Orlando, Florida
Posted by ikar01 on Thursday, July 2, 2015 9:34 PM

They also would like people to turn in their flags for U.S. flags.  They said that they will take their opposition on confederate flags and other items as far as they can.

Heard that TV Land has dropped the Dukes of Hazard series.  I expect the DVD sets will go away too, very soon.  Maybe one of the other retro stations will do away with "The Rebel" series from their lineup.

Some expect movies to be pulled soon.  Gone With the Wind was the first one mentioned.  Song of the South had been banned for many years but Disney still uses the characters on one if its rides.  Which one will be next?

This is way out of hand.

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Thursday, July 2, 2015 8:53 PM

Did you hear that NASCAR has requested that fans refrain from displaying the Stars and Bars at their upcoming races?

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Wisconsin
Posted by CBHusky on Thursday, July 2, 2015 8:17 PM

Curious to know the following:  Does anybody know if there has been any official announcement from the IPMS to ban models from shows/contests that have the Confederate flag symbol on them? Or to ban vendors from selling models/decals with the Confederate flag symbol? If so, I'll be cancelling my IMPS membership effective immediately.

Battleship modelers build with BIGGER guns!
  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Orlando, Florida
Posted by ikar01 on Thursday, July 2, 2015 7:47 PM

We have many reinactors in our area.  Most do either German or American, some do both.  They have the vehicles and equipment necessary, and use it as a teaching tool to show what it was like.  Many guys go to yard sales just to find the real things.  They have jeeps, trucks, a M-8 armored car and some one is supposed to have a restored T-34 and I know there was a Sherman here at one time.  It's all historical learning, no malice at all.  They teach the audience about the uniforms, the tactics, and the drills used by their respective side.  The last time I attended a show, there was a couple from the Civil War, Gulf War, even a couple Japanese warriors in their armor and swords.  That time I even went to represent what is hardly ever seen, U.S.A.F. Security Police from the Vietnam War.  The only other people I have seen that touch this subject are some former Security Police from the K-9 section.  Their unit is called the Last Patrol and they cover their history and what they did, and how it all ended.  Not a pretty picture.

As long as you are talking about banning things, I just finished a model of the Battleship I.J.N. Mikasa.  Does this mean that I shouldn't have the rising sun flag on it?  My middle name is Lee.  I was named after my Father's flight instructor when he was learning to fly C-47s.  Will I need to change my name or the story behind it?  Don't hold your breath.

Michele said that with Obama we would have to change our history and could never go back to haw things were.  Weren't these things done by dictators throughout history?.  Maybe we can't go back but we will always have to be on guard and have to preserve and defend the true history.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, July 2, 2015 7:46 PM

Better still...........

  • Member since
    December 2013
Posted by CodyJ on Thursday, July 2, 2015 7:05 PM

Dude you know the moderators will bring the hammer down.  

However dont purposly try to cause trouble.   If it bothers you that much just avoid it.

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: Biding my time, watching your lines.
Posted by PaintsWithBrush on Thursday, July 2, 2015 6:59 PM

Just to point out reality, the confederate rag that was raised over the South Carolina State House was put up there in 1962 as a direct result of anger against the desegregation of the school system. It was NOT put up there to "honor" anyone. It was put up out of pure spite and hate.

When  will the confederate rag worshipers get over their resounding defeat and that their "cause" was on the wrong side of history?

Hey moderators, are you liking what you're reading? You did lock the first thread about the rag. Is it now OK?

A 100% rider on a 70% bike will always defeat a 70% rider on a 100% bike. (Kenny Roberts)

  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Thursday, July 2, 2015 2:21 PM

LOL  @ GMorrison. Did you even mention SONY is made in Japan to him?

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, July 2, 2015 2:20 PM

It's all YOUR fault!

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Thursday, July 2, 2015 2:09 PM

Hey "G"

Gotchya there ! This old phart still does . LOL.LOL.LOL.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, July 2, 2015 1:33 PM

Right, that's fair enough. This always takes me back to musing about my father-in-law, who had abundantly more reasons to dislike the Third Reich than me.

Would not let me park my BMW in his driveway. Had an entire den full of Sony video and stereo equipment.

Does anyone say stereo any more?

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, July 2, 2015 1:28 PM

GMorrison

SG-  I didn't know about that impression thing. I just don't care to see that stuff.

Well, as the mother of an eight year old in a parade recently said: “If you are offended, don’t look,”...

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, July 2, 2015 1:12 PM

SG-  I didn't know about that impression thing. I just don't care to see that stuff.

As for Mississippi, home state of one branch of my family, it's coming.

They ratified the 13th Ammendment, abolishing slavery, way back in 2013.

The SCLC is onto it and lining up support in the State. They'll work it out locally- I think what surprised people about SC is that the Governor moved so quickly.

Jefferson Davis resigned Congress and removed himself from Washington just ahead of being arrested for treason.

I think it's also starting to dawn on people that the South really did lose the war.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    April 2015
  • From: Detroit, MURDER CITY
Posted by RudyOnWheels on Thursday, July 2, 2015 1:01 PM

Blacksheep, we call this "selective outrage"....... I'm all set on the GroupThink......

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, July 2, 2015 12:40 PM

Over the years, I hear a protest about the Confederate Battle Flag incorporated into state flags.

I'm sure it will be next.

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