UH-1E from an F + B or C?

Aaronw, haven't seen a model company do the C right except Academy

The OH-4 that lost the competition to the OH-6, later variant is know as the OH-58

Ray some OH-58 photo's for you

Aaron,

  Yep, no doubt about it, Italeri AND Hobby Boss both missed the mark with their Charlie models.  You're gonna have to rob a cobra or get the Cobra Company 540 rotor to make one accurate.

Grandad,

  Thanks for the additional OH-58 shots.  I have quite a few but almost none are NG birds.  I just picked up a set of negatives from the Army Aviation Museum which includes, among other things, the arrival pics of the YOH-4, YOH-5, and YOH-6 at the test board.  Very cool stuff.

    Ray

Yep, I've already got a Cobra company rotor set to give it a try.

How about the winch, I've got two available to me a bullet shaped one from the 412 and one with an arm from the UH-1D or UH-1N kit. I don't know which would be right (if either).

Hello Aaron,

Neither the D or the N hoist will work with the E.  The E's hoist is an integral part of the airframe.  The cable reel is located inside that large bubble on the roof.  The hoist arm is external on the roof with the hook sitting in what people are calling the divot in the roof.  The only thing inside the aircraft is a "pipe" from the external hoist down to the cabin deck.  There is a coiled cable with a hand controller for the crew chief to operate. 

The indentifying feature of the E; L; K is that big bubble and hosit arm on the roof.  Any photos of a UH-1E you will see that bubble housing on the roof.

Regards
Steve

Ok, thanks, I didn't quite understand what I was looking at in most of the photos. I thought a lot of them had the winch removed.

So basically there is an oval shaped housing just to the right of centerline and above the pilots, then an arm that swings out mounted closer to the right side and finally a little notch to keep the hook secure when not in use. Looks easy enough to coble something together. The arm looks like is it simply a rectangular box on a post with a pully at the end. Does the cable run along the top or is it inside the arm? 

Thanks

You can remove the bubble housing and the cable reel and can remove the hoist arm but your stuck with the divit. 

The ones that I have seen removed, the internal hoist "Pipe" is still there and still sticks thru the cabin roof with a cover on it.  The roof housing may be gone (though, the housing is essentially weightless) as is the hoist arm. 

The Collins bird appears to have removed the pipe and fitted at patch over the hole.  The divit is still there.  Thats too bad as the humps and bumps are part of the E.

Regards
Steve

Here is a pretty good photo of the Hoist on the UH-1E.

Regards
Steve

John,

The Marines try to keep our enemies on their toes.........always guessing.....even friends....even other Marines. 

I even have a hard time following the "Borrowed B's"; B built E's, Upgraded B-Es to 540 w/ and wo/ tailbooms,  then purpose built 540 E's.  At some point they all (the survivors) got semi-standardized.  Don't even be asking about engines now.   

Even in an operational unit..........there were variations, as I'm sure there was in the Army.  Radios, control heads, seats, etc.  In the training squadron where they finally all got painted the same and were glumped together and were at least REASONABLY standardized, one only wanted to know what "flavor" so as to know what engine. 

Regards
Steve

UH-1Bs

This will clear up the question of borrowing Bs from the Army. I was in VMO-1 at New River.

"In March 1966, although authorized 76 UH-1Es in the operating units, it had only 58. To alleviate the situation, the Marine Corps that month attempted to borrow UH-1Bs from the Army. The Army had none to spare, for it had found its UH-1 series to be well suited to combat as a light troop transport and for its increasing numbers of gunships. Though Bell was straining to meet the demands for more helicopters, the shortage in the Marine Corps continued. The addition of two temporary squadrons compounded the problem. Colonel Alan J. Armstrong, who filled the two-month gap between the departure of Gemeral Robertshaw as DC/S (Air) on 15 April and the arrival of General McCutcheon on 15 June, continued to press for the loan of Army UH-1Bs. A week after General McCutcheon took over his new duties, he was able to write that the Secretary of the Army had agreed to tranfer 20 helicopters. The Secretary of Defense approved the decision on 12 July.

Since the Army version had no rotor brake, it was only marginally suitable for shipboard operations. The helicopter forces in Vietnam had first priority for amphibious vertical assaults, so it was necessary that they be equipped with the Marine Corps design. All of the Army aircraft were delivered to New River, releasing UH-1Es for transfer to the Pacific area. While they reduced the amphibious assault capability of the FMFLant forces, the UH-1Bs without rotor brakes were better than nothing. Ten of them arrived in August and 10 more in January 1967."

Marines and Helicopters, 1962-1973 p.110

I'll send some pictures of the different weapons mounted today or tomorrow. Marines have a habit of improvising. During WWII, we were given B25s again at New River (than a farmers field) and turned them into gunships. The Marines had no use for bombers. It's all about ground support in the Marines. In 1970, a Huey pilot mounted 4 50cal Brownings on the gun racks at New River. I was flying in it when he opened up it up at the range. I'll swear we came to a dead stop for a few seconds. We took them off and did an airframes inspection when we got back.

Hey Huey367

Look forward to seeing the armament photos.  Got any of the TK-2s? (I think that was the nomenclature)  Hard to find detail on those.

Regards
Steve

Huey367 wrote:

UH-1Bs This will clear up the question of borrowing Bs from the Army. I was in VMO-1 at New River.   "In March 1966, although authorized 76 UH-1Es in the operating units, it had only 58. To alleviate the situation, the Marine Corps that month attempted to borrow UH-1Bs from the Army. The Army had none to spare, for it had found its UH-1 series to be well suited to combat as a light troop transport and for its increasing numbers of gunships. Though Bell was straining to meet the demands for more helicopters, the shortage in the Marine Corps continued. The addition of two temporary squadrons compounded the problem. Colonel Alan J. Armstrong, who filled the two-month gap between the departure of Gemeral Robertshaw as DC/S (Air) on 15 April and the arrival of General McCutcheon on 15 June, continued to press for the loan of Army UH-1Bs. A week after General McCutcheon took over his new duties, he was able to write that the Secretary of the Army had agreed to tranfer 20 helicopters. The Secretary of Defense approved the decision on 12 July. Since the Army version had no rotor brake, it was only marginally suitable for shipboard operations. The helicopter forces in Vietnam had first priority for amphibious vertical assaults, so it was necessary that they be equipped with the Marine Corps design. All of the Army aircraft were delivered to New River, releasing UH-1Es for transfer to the Pacific area. While they reduced the amphibious assault capability of the FMFLant forces, the UH-1Bs without rotor brakes were better than nothing. Ten of them arrived in August and 10 more in January 1967." Marines and Helicopters, 1962-1973 p.110   I'll send some pictures of the different weapons mounted today or tomorrow. Marines have a habit of improvising. During WWII, we were given B25s again at New River (than a farmers field) and turned them into gunships. The Marines had no use for bombers. It's all about ground support in the Marines. In 1970, a Huey pilot mounted 4 50cal Brownings on the gun racks at New River. I was flying in it when he opened up it up at the range. I'll swear we came to a dead stop for a few seconds. We took them off and did an airframes inspection when we got back.

I also would be extremly greatful of some nice close-up pic's of the TK 2 gun mount . I have copied a few pic's into the computer that some of the FSM forum members have kindly posted on other Huey threads . I can see that the two machine guns are mounted slightly forward of the rocket pod but to me it appears that the TK 2 mount is just sitting over the front brace that supports the rocket tube . Obvisiously there would of been a lot more support braces holding the two machine guns in place but so far with the few pic's I've seen I just can't figure it out ???

Also did the Marine UH-1E gunships use the same XM-6 sighting system as the Army gunship Huey's ??? .

I have two 1/48 Revell UH-1 Huey kits sitting under the bench , one pair of fuselage halves already has a Bell-Mouth intake fitted and I have collected some nice machine guns , 19 shot rocket pods , nose turret , rescue hoist , armoured seats , a rotor brake , pretty much everything I need to have a go at a "Echo" version ; It's just can't figure out how those two main braces that hold the rocket pod are attached back to the underside of the fuselage and the same with the TK2 machine gun mounts .

                                   Kind regards John

This is what I have collected so far for a USMC UH-1E . Lot's of work to modify the Italeri UH-1D rescue hoist to suit the Marines version , the rotor brake and cabin boxings came from Cobra Company's UH-1N update set . I could build either a early or late version "Echo's" , although I had previously removed the cockpit doors on one pair of those fuselage halves , I wonder if the Marines flew their gunships without doors like there Army and Navy birds ???

                                            Kind regards John .

To counter a couple of the previous posts, I've seen more photos of UH-1Es with 7 shot pods than with 19 shot pods and it was not uncommon to remove all of the hoist bits and pieces on the gunships.  Pic a picture and build it how you want.  Check places like popasmoke.com and scarface-usmc.org for pictures.

Edit: ...and yes most of the gunship pics are sans doors although you can find some with. 

I've posted most of these pics here before but I'll post them again.  I'll do the TK-2 pics (also called Change 7 because it was Airframes Change #7) later.  Somewhere around here I've got the change 7 drawings but not scanned.

Edit:  these include an HH-1K (hanging from ceiling) and a TH-1L (orange) but the hoist setup is the same. 

Thank you so much supercobra for all those awesome pics of the UH-1E gun mounts and rescue hoist . I have been spending a lot of time looking at popasmoke and scareface web sites for images of the Echo and the TK2 weapons mount , as well as FSM forum pages .

Of interest is the motor housing on the roof of the Echo , some pic's I have seen show part of the housing covering a portion of the overhead tinted window panel and some other pic's it appears to be set back away from the glass panel .

Also the support pole inside the cabin for the rescue hoist , how is it attatched to the cabin floor ??? , is it just a flange plate welded to the bottom of the pole and simply bolted to the floor ? .

                                 Kind regards John

P.S. Thank's again for all those additional images , very much appreciated .

Those are some great shots Randy.  As far as the TK-2 system, the pics I posted on page 1 are still some of the best I have seen of the entire system as it was used in Vietnam.  Here they are again.  Do they help any of you guys looking for details or have you already found these?

  Ray

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Hi Ray ,

Those two pic's are really great . It still appears that the twin machine gun mounts are just sitting on that front rocket pod support brace , it's hard to tell if the gun mount has additional bacing back to the fuselage ???

                                                Kind regards John

I've been looking closely at these two images you guy's have kindly posted and I think I finally figured out how those two main support braces are attatched to the underside of the fuselage . So I'll start assembling my two Echo's and see if I can manage to scratch-build two sets of four under fuselage brackets

someone also mentioned this book ,

Amazon.com have three copies currently available , I was wondering if the book had some additional close-up photo's of the TK-2 Gun mount ???

                                        Kind regards John

John,

  I just got the Marines and Helicopters book.  It is excellent but it is more text than photos.  There are two photos of aircraft with the TK-2 kit, but none are close ups that tell you more than the ones you've already seen.  If you are interested in the history of the aircraft and how they were used in Vietnam, however, it is an excellent resource.

    Ray 

The weapons rack attached to the Huey just forward of the rear skid crossover tube at two hard points on each side of the Huey. The rack was simply two steel tubes with two tubes of the same size welded between them. The outboard tube supported the firing assembly for the external weapons attachment. The M60s were on two trays forward of the rocket pod which sat to the rear of the rack.

The 7 shot rocket pod was used until we coulp liberate a pair of 19 shot pods. Finally they were phased out. A small device was used to arm the rocket pods and to set the firing timing. It was replaced and a control panel was added between the pilot and co-pilot at the rear of the console to allow access by the crew chief also. The device was called an intervelometer. Picture shown in crew chief's hand. It is placed in the rear of the pod and the whole pod could fire when being set - no ground safety switch.

HML-367 VT-21 Double Nuts

VT -6 HML-367

USN UH-1E

Crew Chief with Pole door gun mount

Crew Chief with meat hook on bungie cord. The hook would be placed in the M60's carrying handle

In the picture of the weapons rack, the other type of door mount can be made out. It was a huge clunky mount that was I hated. I have a picture of one that I have been looking for.

UH-1E rotor head and engine.

Somebody asked about the rescue hoist. It was anchored to the floor in a flange that was bolted to the floor and a large bolt secured the flange to the hoist pole. There was a red button high on the bulkhead between the pilot and starboard cargo door. The emergency release switch was to fire an explosive charge in the squib to cut the cable if it got hung up. The hoist could be operated by a tongle switch on that control panel or with a control box on a long cable connected below the emergency release switch. The hoist motor housing did cover part of the pilot's greenhouse (green tinted windows over the pilot and co-pilot).

 The Huey also had a cargo hooks mounted internally under the transmission in what we called the "hell hole". It was full of hydralic lines and switches - dark, hot, and oilly.

 Behind the aft sound proofing was a large panel (2' x 4') that opened to access some hydralic switches and the lower part of the transmission. I always thought the engineers put it there to tease you because you still had to go inside the hell hole to work in that area.

 I greatly appreciate the additional info on the rescue hoist , Huey367 , and those recent pic's you added are awesome . .

Here's a pic you guy's previously posted and it appears that the machine gun tray has a lower support brace attatched at the bottom corner of the front portion of the tray going back to the cabin floor ??? [ I tried to draw a red arrow at what I'm looking at ] .

Also did the M-60 machine gun mounted inside the cabin retain the pistol grip or did it have spade grips added to the back of the gun ? .

I ordered a copy of Marines and Helicopters from Amazon as well .

                                           John.

OH , I'm such an idiot .

After looking at the pic I just posted , that's not a support brace but the barrell of the lower fixed machine gun . . Sorry about my previous post .

                                         John

Ok, as if this thread has not covered enough ground or become confusing enough. Did the USAF modify other helicopters with the F's engine and side exhaust?

I was looking through Squadron's UH-1 in color and there is what looks like a USAF UH-1F but the caption says UH-1E. I would assume a typo but Chris (Cobrahistorian) made the post the other day about the UH-1B used for Tow missile evaluations being restored. The photo of the helicopters current status appears to have the same F style cowling, making me wonder if the USAF made up some patchwork "UH-1Fs" from other short bodied UH-1s? 

grandadjohn wrote:

That Huey Jon mentions is on display only and never flew as a F model. The F is it's own model with it's own features. The UH-1P (which has the same set-up) is nothing more then an armed F

Ok, so someone just put an F cowling on that helicopter for display purposes and the one in the book is a typo then.

Thanks