Armed Escort Tiltrotor

Well, I just got back from my LHS and I got my donor V-22 and Bronco kits. I'll post confirg pix later.

LJ - Mohawk idea sounds cool. You still planning that AV-22?

QUOTE: Originally posted by Trigger74 Oooo... I like the Raptor/Comanche side bay idea. Side bays, torpedo tubes...have you been watch the Slave 1 chase scene in Episode 2 lately?

No...not lately. But that is kind of where the idea came from, I think. Even as I was typing it out, I was shaking my head.

I'm going to have to file this all away, maybe when I can not feel guilty about buying some more kits, I'll pick up a donor 1/72 V-22 and another kit (I like the Cessna that Phil started this with, but Trigger's Bronco has possibilities, or maybe I'll try it with a Mohawk, just to be different? I'd like to have an escort sitting next to my 1/48 "Spooky" Osprey gunship on the shelf/tarmac. Then I'll have to get another 1/48 V-22 so that I can make the plain vanilla V-22 troop carrier...man, this is just one vicious cycle, isn't it?

Sounds like something has really been stirred up here!

Could this a/c be reconfigured for covert ops? Sounds like it would be a great candidate for that. In that role, crewserved weapons (GAU-21) out the sides and back would be useful. GIB may also be a `gunner' in the mold of th AC-130 and really be a loader. Then you might poke something out the side for the orbit.

.....Osprey....AC-130.........AV-22 anyone?

Mac

Oooo... I like the Raptor/Comanche side bay idea.

Side bays, torpedo tubes...have you been watch the Slave 1 chase scene in Episode 2 lately?

Good points, all. I have to agree with Trigger on the question of desire/need for side/door gunners on the escort. Added weight of weapons and associated gear, ammo, and gunner maybe could be better utilized as internal fuel? And the underside bomb bay is probably a no-go with the low stance of a tiltrotor, so I'd be looking at some kind of side bay-something along the lines of the Comanche or Raptor's setup.

I like either a chin turret or a centerline GAU-type gun. Both have advantages that I can see.

Here's a crazy thought...some kind of missile launcher like a torpedo tube, maybe with some kind of internal magazine/autoloader? Then it could be set to fire along the axis of the airframe...Maybe I'm getting a little carried away?

Phil -
Yeah, makes sense. I can picture an escort with the nacelles somewhere between 45 and 90 degrees doing orbits. It would allow for quickest transition between either horizontal or vertical flight depending on the situation.

I was watching a show on The History Channel several years ago and watched them rotate the wing over the fuselage for storage. I think this would negate any weapons pylons on the wings. Best bet would be on the bottom or the lower sides of the fuselage, this would allow for them to be fired in either mode of flight. Also this would make re-loading easier.
The radar could be mounted in the nose as is the current placement on helo's or in a FLIR pod on the nose similar to what is going on the "Z" model snake.
A gun turret, if mounted, should be in front of the prop blades to allow a bigger field of fire. You could also mount a second turret behind the prop arc to cover the side and rear and maybe crew weapons on the sides and rear also(placement would need to be figured out for max coverage.)
Biggest problem is weight.
Thats my 2cents worth anyway.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Trigger74 I'm not trying to poo-poo the idea of side gunners. I'm like you Phil, in that when I build a what-if, I like to keep it grounded in reality and these are the kind of questions I ask myself.

No problem, this is actually the very discussion I hoped to get into. I am planning to have a cobra-like nose gun turret, but If the experienced folks here tell me that side guns are a waste of weight on this config, then I' ll delete them. I had envisioned this aircraft circling the LZ probably not in aircraft mode (why take the time to come around for another pass?) , but not fully in helo mode either. If the s is really hitting the fan, then it seems to me another gun on target would be useful. In the air, firing at some depression angle, the side guns would not be blocked so much by the nacelles. If you had to land for some reason, then the side guns might still be useful, even though the may have a limited azimuth. Does this make sense?

As for ingress/egress, I had assumed cobra like opening canopies. And a rear side door/ramp for access to the cabin. Still thinking about this, though.

Here is a pic of the wing root. I carved a curve into the front and back, then wrapped some sandpaper around the fuselage to finish sand it to the height I wanted. Then I chopped up the sides of the V-22 to fill in the sides of the wing root. The upper rear fuselage of the V-22 is very flat, so It left some gaps in the rear corners of the wing roots. I used some epoxy putty to shape the aft points to fit. Probably the last quarter inch of the wing root fillet is putty. I need to tape it all back together soon, so I post some more pics.



Phil

QUOTE: Originally posted by MBT70 Attack ships do fly-by shootings and the side gunners are for lift ships in a dangerous LZ or a hot hover-hole.

Bob has brought up an interesting point. We can all agree that the reason for a tilt-rotor escort to the V-22 would be to have something that can take off from a Tarawa or Wasp-class ship, keep up with an Osprey on the way in, and provide cover for it if it attracts too much attention. The question is, would the escort(s) hover at an LZ too, or would they be zipping around like Dragonflys? If one can answer that question, then you know if you need side gunners or not.

Now, it's difficult for me to gauge the size and scale of the airframe so my only concern would be if there is enough space for aft/side gunners, the weapons, ammo drums, etc. How would they enter/exit the airframe normally? How would they get out in case of emergency?

Another problem with side gunners is the same one currently in the V-22 - azimuth. Those nacelles will block a good portion of a side gunner's field of fire. With a two man crew, you can have a trainable cannon operated by one of the two that offers some options other than a straight strafing run.

I gotta look in Jon's book again, and MBT70 you may be able to confirm this - I think attack helos are arranged the way they are thanks to the success of the Cobra - the gunner in the front has the widest view of the battlefield and the narrower profile offered by such an arrangement lessens the chances of ground fire hitting it's mark.

I'm not trying to poo-poo the idea of side gunners. I'm like you Phil, in that when I build a what-if, I like to keep it grounded in reality and these are the kind of questions I ask myself.

That's a pretty neat kitbash you have going on ... almost looks OOB at this point. I like the idea of a centerline GAU-30 and stubby hardpoint sponsons like an OV-10, but the waist guns are too much weight in the wrong place ... and you don't need 'em. Attack ships do fly-by shootings and the side gunners are for lift ships in a dangerous LZ or a hot hover-hole. And someone lese mentioned the rotor disc problem ... I agree and wouldn't have any hard points on the wings. Keep the photos coming ... looks very interesting.

Hey, thanks for all the great responses. Lots of great ideas. As a engineer, I'm a huge fan of keeping things as simple as possible, that way there's less to go wrong. My concept for this aircraft is too keep it as light possible. So I'm leaning away from things like weapons bays and rotary launchers. A weapons bay will eat up cabin space, which I think it needs so we can put a GIB with a gun. There's still fit issues with external stores, I need to make some more measurements. If I can get the stores to fit externally, I'll probably go that route. Trigger makes a good point with hot rearm issues.

I think I'll keep the two place side-by-side cockpit, just because I think it will look good and the must be a reason why Cobras and Apaches are two place helos. Plus I don't want to do any more sugery than I have to. It will need to have some type of canopy opening like a Cobra, because I don't think there will be room for the pilot to get in his seat from the cabin.

ckfredrickson, you're right about the gun sighting issues. And probably correct about the refueling probe, in that it may not need a long helo type boom.

Trigger74, I don't have any more pics of the wing root, but I will take some later. You're absolutey right about the mean and ugly Marine CAS look. That's the plan.

Thanks,
Phil

I was just thinking - as much as I like the idea of a weapons bay, how easy would that be to hot re-arm? If it takes too long or is too difficult/dangerous to do so with the engines running then it may not be the best solution.

Just some food for thought.

Cool idea! More 2 cents to add....
For the refueling boom, how about having it Harrier-style....you could have it pop up from the side of the nose section. I think a boom like a -53 would get in the way of any turreted weapons.
As long as this is going to be an attack aircraft, why not just do away with a two-place cockpit, and bring it down to one? That way, the pilot has more visibility, and will provide for better targeting. (Thinking of the Ka-50 vs Ka-52) I know that'd require some surgery, but i don't think it'd be too hard to slim down the forward cabin area.
Or...go with a tandem configuration?
Definitely agree with a retractable weapons bay in the belly. But that makes me think of the ordnance guys.......you'd have to install a ramp in the rear of the fuselage so they could load the missles/rockets.
Another option besides a turret, (especially if you go with a single-seater) would be to put 30mm cannon packs (chain-gun style) on either side of the fuselage, similar to the Hind variant, or Hokum, as well. This would pretty much define the aircraft's attack role as airplane mode, for better or worse.
That's it for now, I'll probably day-dream about this and think of more stuff later!

Phil -
Do you have any close-up shots of the wing root? I'm curious as to how the wing meets your fuselage

LJ -
Rotary launcher - LOL - yeah, I had a similar idea from the same source. Good designers borrow, great designers steal!

Now look what you've started, Phil! We'll soon have a run on 1/72 Osprey kits and who-knows-what else to make tiltrotor escorts! I wouldn't mind taking a crack at it too, just to see what kind of engineering nightmare I can come up with. Possible future "What If" group build?

Good point about the missiles/rotor disk issues ckfredrickson. But I'm leaning toward a rotary launcher (maybe I've seen too many commercials for Stealth) but a bomb bay that could hold/carry loadouts that way for the specific threat/mission would work, right?

QUOTE: It's a Marine CAS aircraft and they should look tough, mean and ugly (I mean that with affection)

Trigger, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Oh yeah, and if you go with internal weapons storage, it probably will make sense to convert to canopy-opening system rather than entrance through a door in the fuselage.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Duke Maddog QUOTE: Originally posted by Trigger74 Okay, now I've got a question born out of my own ignorance - what are the problems with targeting in a side-by-side airframe? Hmm.... an Osprey/Bronco hybrid... I called that one first! Then you'd better make it first! It sounds so cool I may take a shot at it!

Awwww...c'mon Duke, I'm packing up for a move! (shakes first in the air) Oh, just for that, I'm going to my LHS tomorrow to get a Bronco and an Osprey! (I really wish I could use that monkey dance forum icon that ARC has!)

LOL! Just kidding - knock yourself out Duke!

With regards to practicality, all of the weapons should be deployed from underneath or directed sideways from the fuselage... I realize guns can be shot through propellers with the use of a timing chain, and rockets could probably be similarly configured, but I personally wouldn't bother with all the complexities. I also don't like the idea of systems only being available when in helo configuration... the craft will be slow and vulnerable in this position, and it shouldn't have to enter it to get a shot off.

One way to do this is to leave a weapons/bomb bay that can be tailored to each mission (combination of retractable rocket pods and small diameter bombs; look to see what F-35 and F-22 are doing in this arena). Less flexible, but more aggressive looking, would be to permanently install an F-86D-style rocket launcher (EDIT - though permanent, keep it retractable). Or perhaps you combine the two... permanent rocket launcher, and then small bay behind for bombs/hellfires.

Sensors should incorporate whatever Cobra and Apache have; may also want to look at Harrier and Comanche to see if there's anything novel there. Radar may be a good idea, but I don't know where it'd go with the most likely spaces already claimed by guns or rockets. I like the idea of a chin turret, but would personally go for a Comanche-style turret (lower profile) or a semi-retractable Apache-style cannon.

Most likely spot (if there's any space left) for a crew served weapon would be at the very back, and would probably look like a door gunner on a Blackhawk. I have a hard time seeing the gunner racing to move it from side to side in the heat of battle... keep it dedicated to one side only.

(Trigger - problem with targeting in side-by-side airframe is related to use of helmet-mounted sensors to aim gun... in the Apache or Cobra, the weapons guy can see out both sides of the bird, so it makes sense to have the gun pointing in the direction they're looking. But when the pilots sit next to each other, their visibility with regards to the other side of the bird is limited, making helmet-mounted sights more difficult, though not impossible)

Best spot for the refueling probe would be in the nose (simply scribe a rectangle); I would anticipate refueling only in the plane configuration, so a long refueling boom probably isn't required. Another option may be an S-3 Viking style probe that extends from the canopy (claim it's there, and perhaps scribe a circle).

QUOTE: Originally posted by Trigger74 Okay, now I've got a question born out of my own ignorance - what are the problems with targeting in a side-by-side airframe? Hmm.... an Osprey/Bronco hybrid... I called that one first!

Then you'd better make it first! It sounds so cool I may take a shot at it!

Par, you're doing Excellent. It's gonna look incredible with all the additions everyone is suggesting!

Phil

I too had in the back of my mind the idea of using a 1/72 V-22 wing and nacelles and mating those to a fuselage. I was thinking of a modified Apache, Cobra or Bronco - a Citation never came to mind and I like what you've got started there.

Something else you may want to rob from the Osprey source kit would be the sponsons. It'll give the airframe an increased footprint which is necessary on a flightdeck rolling in rough seas. I had the idea of increasing the width of the sponsons on the XV-15 beyond what they were originally so as to allow for internal weapons bay or enough racks to give the plane some bite. Internal bays wouldn't have to be deep, just deep enough for a row of Hellfire and a swing arm rack. The ground clearance the landing gear provides will drive that solution. I like LJs idea of Hellfire carried internally and launching from the sides of the fuselage but I think you'd have to stretch the fuselage to permit this.

What else...

- Ejection seats?
- You will need an air-to-air refueling probe
- "slime light" formation lights. The current generation of these have a black strip flush with the yellow - this is the NVG strip
- You'll need some both a FLIR and targeting system.
- Radar? Maybe.
- Lots of RWR bumps and flare/chaff dispensers. It's a Marine CAS aircraft and they should look tough, mean and ugly (I mean that with affection)

Okay, now I've got a question born out of my own ignorance - what are the problems with targeting in a side-by-side airframe?

Hmm.... an Osprey/Bronco hybrid... I called that one first!

Now, that is sweet! I'm really liking your start on this one, Phil! So I'll toss in my .02 USD.

Now, I'm no expert by any means, but in the escort/LZ suppression role you'd need:
- a centerline rotary cannon (smaller than the A-10's monster), 20mm would be good, in/below the nose (again, think the A-10's config)
- hellfires in rotory launchers that open from the fuselage sides
-hydra rocket pods on the wings that can only be armed/fired when the rotors are in helo config, to avoid hitting the rotor disc in flight
-if its USMC, then it has to have the inflight refueling probe for those long missions from the amphibs to shore

Can't wait to see more as this develops...