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Armed Escort Tiltrotor

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  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Sunday, August 21, 2005 3:14 AM
Bye Mac! And FYI - Saturday's LHS run was a success.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Georgia
Posted by Screaminhelo on Saturday, August 20, 2005 9:31 PM
I'll see y'all in a couple of weeks. I start BNOC tomorrowSad [:(], so if anyone is around Columbia, SC near the dark side of Ft. Jackson, wave on the way by.

Mac

Mac

I Didn't do it!!!

  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Saturday, August 20, 2005 9:07 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Screaminhelo

... I would recommend the blades rotating to center so that the advancing blade is off the end of the wing.


Yup, that was exactly what I was thinking.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Georgia
Posted by Screaminhelo on Saturday, August 20, 2005 8:33 AM
Trigger-
With counter rotating rotors, retreating blade stall is not much of an issue. That is a fringe benefit when you use a tandem rotor, the advancing blade on one side counters the retreating blade on the other. I would recommend the blades rotating to center so that the advancing blade is off the end of the wing.

Mine doesn't have wing fold capability yet. I am considering a non-Marine version anyway but I haven't decided yet.

Supercobra-
Would HMMA work?

Mac

I Didn't do it!!!

  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Saturday, August 20, 2005 8:16 AM
At least blade fold is on my mind. I looked at the Bronco's wing next to an Osprey's and not counting the nacelles, they're almost exactly the same span. In fact, the bronco has more wing since it has a narrow fuselage. The overall space taken up by my design right now is just under that of an F-35B. Rotating the wing 90 degrees can't happen as I don't think there's enough space in the fuselage to outfit the mechanics of it. And wing fold is out of the question since there's a cross-shaft (On second thought - maybe not - they fold the tails on SH-3s and SH-60s. Could that work here I wonder?) I think there's a way I can fold the tail up, and over the fuselage to save space.

Going to hit the hoppy shop looking for more donor parts today. Mac - Got your message and roger that.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.
Posted by AH1Wsnake on Saturday, August 20, 2005 12:59 AM
Thanks for all the added info and clarification, supercobra. Very intersting description on how all of our squadrons got there names -- I had never heard of that before!

I tend to agree with you on retaining the H versus the V for a squadron designator for the Ospreys. Someone probably decided on V because it's sexier, and it's a fast bird, but, you're never going to see that thing take off or land (non-emergency) unless it's in some form of helicopter mode! Wink [;)]

For all the non-wing folders, remember, deck and hangar space on the ship is truly at a premium. Think of how you're going to outfit the LHAs or LHDs. Will they purely be devoted to V-22s and escorts? Or will they share room with a detachment of AH-1Zs and UH-1Ys too? Maybe think about at least a blade-fold mechanism, because these things have to travel up and down the ship's aircraft elevators as well.

 

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Friday, August 19, 2005 9:45 AM
"Get what i pay for." - then I should get a job in procurement at the Pentagon!

D'oh - I forgot about retreating blade stall - I wonder if having two rotor discs (and making sure the blades rotate in a manner that keeps the retreating sides over the wing) would offset the loss of lift from the retreating blades? You're probably right about folding being the reason for the number of blades. I think the Sea King had 5 blades at least - I need to verify that and see if that could work.

I haven't sized mine yet to see how it fits - the wingspan will be wider than yours but I I think the shorter fuselage length could offset that.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Maryland
Posted by Par429 on Friday, August 19, 2005 7:49 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Trigger74
Para249 -
My imagination is going outside the box right now and I'd like to ask a few engineering questions if you don't mind.


Sure, but I'll warn you that I am not a propulsion engineer, so you may get what you pay for. The max speed you can get out of a propeller aircraft is related to the tip speed of the props. As the tips near the speed of sound thier efficiency drops significantly. So the idea with the curved blades on the C-130J is to sweep the blades (like swept wings) to reduce the tip speed. the blades are very thin composites to provide good high speed drag characteristics and there are six blades to reduce the loading on each blade so the thin structure can handle the loads. This may not apply the helos, since they may be more limited by retreating blade stall than tip speed, but you will note that lots of helos these days have swept tips. The curved blades would probably be appropriate to a tiltrotor though, since I imagine they would experience tip speed issues in aircraft mode. Counter-rotating rotors would probably work, but I'm not sure what the sizing rules are for this sort of thing. I'll have to ask around. Similar for the number of blades. I don't think there are any reason why not to have more blades, but it would be harder to fold them all I suppose. BTW, my design won't have folding wings either, but after careful analysis ( read rationalization) I decided since it's the same size as a Harrier, which doesn't fold either, then it will work OK aboard a ship.

Good questions, I may have to do a little research on this.

Supercobra, thanks for the detailed explanation, excellent info.

Phil
  • Member since
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  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Friday, August 19, 2005 7:40 AM
More good scoop, thanks, supercobra! Funny how 3MARDIV/1MAW get their strength from stateside units but we're still considered to have three full divisions and air wings on active duty.

I'm waiting on my order to be filled at GreatModels, so I'm still in the brainstorming stage as well. I was driving to Raliegh the other day trying to think through how to scratch a couple (???) of rotary launchers for my planned internal bay.

Maybe I'll go with Sea Serpent or Sea Viper as a nickname...or maybe a shark name would be more appropriate? Something to mull over while I mow the lawn.
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Friday, August 19, 2005 6:47 AM
Good morning Supercobra and thank you very much for taking the time out to respond. I know you're busy and we all appreciate that very detailed and useful information. It's not too much to process and that is exactly what we were looking for.

BTW - Nice Naboo fighter! That could even be a Hornet replacement.

Since I'm moving a week from tomorrow, the only modeling related activity I'm doing is research and working on whatever graphics I've got in progress. I've started decal artwork for my Dimondback (what I'm calling it today) and may try to get something posted this weekend.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    June 2003
Posted by supercobra on Friday, August 19, 2005 2:08 AM
VMX-22 stood up in addition to VMMT-204. 204 is still there and will start training shortly if they haven't already. The first HMM to transition to VMM has already stood down to start the process.

Most of the squadron designation stuff has been aswered but I'll expend a few saved rounds. As stated the HMMs transitioning to the V-22 will be VMMs and keep the same number so it stands to reason the HML/As might eventually become VML/As if they operated light (Huey) and attack (AH) - you could do a wide body version too for the light. Or you could just go VMA. Before we combined UHs and AHs in the same squadron we had HMLs and HMAs. Interestingly they were combined because the AH-1J and UH-1N used the same drivetrain and the Marine Corps could cut the number of mechanics in half. Since that time the airframes have grown apart. The AH-1W has very little in common with the UH-1N but we staff the squadrons like they did.

West Coast and reserve squadrons use HMLA whereas the East Coast squadrons use HML/A. East Coast uses the slash to emphasize that we are talking about two different missions (light and attack) and not a reduced attack capability (light attack).

For the numbering system, the 1st number is the Marine airwing where the squadron first stood up, the 2d number is the 2d digit of the Marine Aircraft Group where the squadron first stood up, and the third digit is for the number of the squadron in that group. HML/A-167 was commissioned as HML-167 in Vietnam (1st MAW), MAG-16, as the 7th squadron in MAG 16. HMM-161 was orginally the 1st squadron in 1st MAW, MAG-16. As squadrons, groups and even wings moved locations the numbers don't match up anymore. For example, MAG-39 is now 3rd MAW vice 1st MAW. So there has never been a 39X but there could be now. This system applies to most helicopter squadrons the noted exception being some of the HMH squadrons (461, 466, etc) - some of them trace their lineage back to WWII era fixed wing squadrons.

As far as what to use, that's tough - If you chose to commission a new squadron and if you went with the above you would have to use 26X, 29,X, or 39X since all of the active HMLAs are in 2d MAW MAG-26 and 29 or 3d MAW MAG-39. 1st MAW doesn't really own squadrons per say, they just rotate through. Between tours with 1st MAW, 2d MAW, and 3d MAW, MAG-16, 26, and 36(?) are already up to nine in the three digits (169, 269 and 369) and you probably don't want to use four digits by added a two digit tenth squadron, I would suggest using 291 (1st squadron commissioned under MAG-29, 2d MAW) or 391 (1st squadron of MAG-39, 3d MAW). I don't belive that any squadrons stood up under MAG-29 - all of the squadrons in 29 now were commissioned before MAG-29 stood up. Same with MAG-39.

I know all the above is confusing if you look at where the squadrons are now but think about who they fell under when they were first commissioned.

Personally, I don't like the fact that we are going with the V for the Osprey - I would have retained the H. Along those lines I would go with HMFA-291. I like the HMFA because I would assume that this thing would have air-to-air and in the AH-1W we used to practice air-air as much as the F/a-18 guys used to practice attack. Of course the focus has changed now for everyone. I also say go with 291 vice 391 because the West Coast has four HMLAs compared to two HML/As on the East Coast so I would hope the next squadron goes east.

Years ago I started to graft a 1/72 V-22 onto a 1/48 OV-10. Didn't look too hard but I got sidetracked.

I did a simliar project turning a Naboo Star Wars fighter into an HMFA-367 VTOL. Tongue-in-cheek I dressed it up like the Marine Corps would have it. I added skids, and the same old flare/chaff, and ALQ-144 in place of R2D2 (we could never afford one of those). Here is a link to it on ARC:

http://s96920072.onlinehome.us/Gal1/401-500/gal410_Naboo_Smith/gal410.htm


  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Thursday, August 18, 2005 10:37 PM
Viper has been the unofficial official nickname for the F-16. Nobody calls it the "Fighting Falcon" except some PAO geek in the Pentagon. I don't know if the AH-Z will be called Viper or not.

Noisy Cricket - wasn't that the gun Will Smith used in Ben In Black?
Ladybug - the F/A-18E/F?
Battle Hamster - I'm thinking it would have to be as cannon laden as a B-17 to bestowed this title of Battle-anything. But I like the hamster suffix.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Thursday, August 18, 2005 8:51 PM
Trigger, I've got no prob sharing the VMA(AW) idea, and who knows, I may be hitting you up to print some decals off for my bird.

Some nickname ideas: Noisy Cricket, Ladybug, and Battle Hamster...no, those would be Air Farce platforms... I was leaning toward Viper, but aren't some F-16s called that now? I'll have to think on it some more.
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:42 PM
LJ -
Keep it over here? That's fine. More fun for us then! I like your VMA(AW)- prefix. I may use VMA-, VML/A- or your VMA(AW)- prefix if you don't mind. I'm leaning towards inventing a whole new unit.

Para249 -
My imagination is going outside the box right now and I'd like to ask a few engineering questions if you don't mind.

1. - What advantages are supplied by curved propellor blades on engines such as those that power the C-130J, and would those advantages apply to a helicoptor's rotor disc? Disadvantages?

2. - If I had two sets of counter-rotating props per nacelle, would that offer me a chance at a decreased diameter of a rotor disc? Or do I need a large rotor disc to maintain stable and controllable vertical flight?

3. - Why three blades on Tilt Rotors (XV-3, XV-15, V-22)? Why not four? Or Five? Or Six?

All -
Am I the only one who's design's wings won't fold for storage? I'm tenatively referring to my design as the AV-27A. No nickname yet; screaminhelo reminded me that the A-37 was the Dragonfly. Cottonmouth has a nice ring to it, but for some reason I'm digging the name "Thunder Bunny." Suggestions are welcome.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Massachusetts
Posted by ajlafleche on Thursday, August 18, 2005 3:25 PM
Cool. I leraned something today. Smile [:)]

Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

  • Member since
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  • From: Maryland
Posted by Par429 on Thursday, August 18, 2005 3:13 PM
Well, assuming you're talking about my Citation, I compared the parts to the Bell 609 (commercial tiltrotor), and found that my config is very, very similar to it. So, since I don't want to do any more surgery than I have to, I'm calling it good. But when you have some free time, look up some drawings of the V-22 or the BA609, and look at the wings. They look small to me on both of those configurations. I think that there is some benefit in lift in having the entire wing inside the slipstream of the proprotors. The air velocity will be higher over the wings than it would be on a non-tiltrotor.

Anyway, thanks, and BTW, I am an aerospace engineer, even though I don't play one on TV.

Phil
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Massachusetts
Posted by ajlafleche on Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:20 PM
I'm not an aeronautics engineer, nor do I paly one on TV. Do you think the wings look like they'd provide enoough lift in level flight? I know the F-104 had tiny wings but it had massive thrust, too.
That said, this looks way cool. Nice and creative, too.

Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Thursday, August 18, 2005 1:44 PM
I don't think the Aircraft guys would want us over there...they're pretty set in their ways, you know. (I say that with tongue firmly in cheek)

Would it be VMA(AW) for an all weather tiltrotor squadron? I think I'll go with that for now. Good scoop on the designations, too. Thanks guys!
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:40 AM
Thank you Matt!
VMMT-204 = Fixed-wing, Marine, Medium Lift, Training 204

So Tiltrotor does not have it's own prefix and thus falls under fixed wing like the Harrier does since the engines move, not the wing.

VMM- would be an MV-22B combat unit. Then VMA- or VMAW- would most likely be the prefix of an attack (escort) Tiltrotor unit?

Does this mean we have to move this thread over to Aircraft now?
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 18, 2005 10:22 AM
V - Fixed Wing
H - Helicopter (and Heavy Lift eg: HMH-461)
X - Test and Evaluation (VX-9)
A - Attack
AW - All Weather
F - Fighter
M - Marine (and Medium Lift eg: HMM-264)
T - Training (eg: VMAT-203)

The first letter designates type, second Marine, subsequent letter(s) mission.

So far there are the following designations Marine-wise:
VMA, VMFA, VMFA(AW), VMAT, VMFAT, HMLA, HMM, HMH, HMT, HMX, VMX, and VMMT... soon to be VMM as well.
  • Member since
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  • From: Maryland
Posted by Par429 on Thursday, August 18, 2005 9:27 AM
As far as I know, the leading V only designates a heavier-than-air aircraft, not a V/STOL. It was chosen way long ago when there was no such thing as a V/STOL aircraft. The V was chosen for reasons unknown but was to separate them from the Z, or light-than-air aircraft. You're right, the Hornet does not have any V/STOL capabilities. So really the leading V and H designations are not really consistent. We need a new tiltrotor squadron designator, any ideas? We could use B for both helo and fixed wing, but somehow BMLA just doesn't sound very good!!

Phil
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Thursday, August 18, 2005 8:53 AM
HMA-
I know is the designator for a Vietnam-era Marine Attack Helicopter squadron (HMA-773 flew AH-1Gs)

HML/A-
Marine Light Attack Helicopter Squadron (HML/A-269 out of New River)

HMT-302
Marine Helicopter Training Squadron

VMMT-204
Marine Medium Tiltrotor Training Squadron (this is from http://www.2maw.usmc.mil/MAG29/VMMT204/default.asp) and was formerly known as HMT-204 up until 1990. Intersting to note here is, there's no H anywhere in the designation.

So from that, I know H is for Helicoptor, M is for Marine Squadron, A is for attack, L/A is Light Attack, the second M is for Medium, T is for training,

Is would seem the V is for V/STOL except for the fact that we have VMFA- and VMA- prefixes for Hornet and Harrier squadrons respectively. I suspect Hornets aren't V/STOL capable (correct me if I'm wrong). Thus my confusion...
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Maryland
Posted by Par429 on Thursday, August 18, 2005 8:17 AM
I'm pretty sure the X designator comes from experimental and means Test & Evaluation or Operational Evaluation. All our squadrons here at Pax River are designated with an X. That being said, I'm not sure how HMX-1 got that designation.

How about a new designation, like HMA? Just leave the L, M or H out, since it won't be carrying much if any cargo. And to me it seems that a tiltrotor should be in an H squadron instead of a V squadron. Although maybe we do need a new designator for the tiltrotor, then we can put the V-22 in heavy tiltrotor squadrons and the escorts in light tiltrotor squadrons.

Phil
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Thursday, August 18, 2005 6:53 AM
Now I would have thought X meant test/evaluation (as in VX-4) but then there's HMX-1...

LJ - AH-1Wsnake's got me thinking that I may stand corrected regarding your VMX-1. I thought that was an eval designation, but now I'm not so sure.

Not planning on converting a skid unit. I may be crazy, but I ain't suicidal. If not a budget windfall unit, then maybe a former Harrier unit as I doubt they'll replace AV-8Bs with F-35Bs on a one-for-one basis and some units stand the chance of being disbanded.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.
Posted by AH1Wsnake on Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:17 AM
Trigger, I follow your thinking on the squadron designator, and allow me to offer my suggestions.
The "L" in your VMLA (assuming you took it along the lines of the HML/A) would connotate a "light" lift capability. Marine skid squadrons have an "L" designator because the Huey can be utilized in a light-lift role. I'm assuming your armed tiltrotors won't be carrying much cargo, so we'll leave the "L" out. Smile [:)]
Where does that leave us? VMA? Sounds like a Harrier squadron, so maybe we'd need a new letter to denote the tiltrotor classification. That's where I'm slightly confused.
The Osprey training squadron at New River was previously VMMT-204. Now that "T" was for training, not tiltrotor, I'm 95% sure. Later, the unit was redesignated as VMX-22. Not sure if the "X" is classifying the tiltrotor designation, or the training mission.
Maybe ridleusmc or supercobra, who are a little closer to the active-duty buzz than I am, can throw out a suggestion.
VMXA-???
For numbers, maybe you convert an existing Harrier, or God forbid, a skid squadron to the new airframe. Better yet, pretend the Corps got a budget windfall and just formed brand-new squadrons.....Big Smile [:D]

 

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 7:31 PM
Ya know, I thought about that. But I decided that I would want to display it along my MV-22B and I wanted the Osprey to have operational markings (any 1/48 CH-46 builders out their who won't use the gray operational decals? Big Smile [:D])
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 5:30 PM
Trigger, No idea on the paint scheme yet. Too soon to even contemplate that. I doubt it will be standard greys, though.

VMLA- sounds about right to me, but I'm not an air winger, all those designations confuse this old grunt. I would guess that it would be a new unit, but it could also replace an old one as they transition over to the new airframe.

Edited:Heck, it's a "What If" so you can mark it as VMX-1 if you really wanted to, Trigger!
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:21 PM
LJ -
So how are you planning on painting this new Mud-mover of yours?

Question for all the Marines around here....
I'm planning on this being a USMC aircraft and was working on some unit markings. I'm trying to figure out the USMC system for squadron designation and I'm looking at a VMLA- prefix. Am I on the right path with that or tilting aginst a windmill? Don't have a number yet - not sure if it should be a new number or take over an existing number. Suggestions welcome.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:08 PM
Alright, I broke down and ordered my Mohawk and Osprey donor kits just a few minutes ago. So, that will make my entry in this little discussion. I hope to be getting started on that one soon.

Also started to modify my 1/48 V-22 to make my AV-22 gunship...I cut all the molded-on pax seating out of the back and started to pencil in some gunports on the port/left side to start working some ideas on the weapons. I'll post some pics once I get something worth showing done.
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posted by zokissima on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 8:34 AM
Neat little project Smile [:)]
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