Vietnam Huey

grandadjohn wrote:

The Huey's used in that movie where from the Philippine Army since the US Army didn't like the movie and would not support it   EDIT That antenne was for a radio in that Huey, not just because it looked "cool". Not all Huey's carried the HF radio

Grandad,

  Wasn't trying to imply that the longline HF antenna had no real function, just that they probably used em in the movie caused they looked good. However, knowing now that they were Philippine Hueys, I guess they could have just come that way.  I assume that the Philippines also had a fair number of OH-6's as well considering the "attack" sequence.  I'd kill for a movie that accuartely portrayed a real CA.  They were dangerous and unpredictable enough without any Hollywood embelishment!

      Ray

Hello Skidd!

That Squadron Walk Around book shows US Army Bs, Marine Es and USAF Ns with that antennae.  I didn't check any books on D/Hs but none of my company's D/Hs had it when I was there.

clear right

Howie

Hello Nate,

welcome to our forum.   It looks like you've been in good hands with Ray, and I am glad to hear that the US Army didn't like the film Apocalypse Now - my sentiments exactly!  If you're building a B model Huey you might want to get a copy of the WALK AROUND UH-1 HUEY GUNSHIPS Walk Around no. 36 published by Squadron/Signal Publications mmd@squadron.com.  It has just about all the detail photos you would want from the rotor down and inside the cockpit and cargo compartments.  There are also photos of that zig-zag radio antennae.  The main difference is that these were the shorter B gunship versions while the movie used the troop carrier D/H models armed with just an M-60 on each side but you stated that was out of your hands.  Hope this helps you.  Can you tell us where this theme park model will be hanging?

Clear right

Howie

2/12

Sorry to be adding comments a little late but hopefully this may still be of value.  I was with C Co, 227 AHB 1^st Air Cav but left at the end of Jan 1970.  FYI Joseph Osborn of  fireball@josephosborn.org has Huey decal sheets in 1/72 to 1/32 scale that includes my "Nevada Gambler" which includes our Co insignia of a green circle with a yellow lightning bolt going through it.  This appeared on the nose, and two forward doors.  You could replace the circle with a triangle, or a square or a diamond using the lightning bolts, to make an A, B or D Co/227 helo.  The decals include the 1^st Cav insignia for the tail, and extra serial numbers so you can make practically any Helo you want.   MicroScale (later Super Scale) Decals also did a decal of my Nevada Gambler.  Joseph will make custom decals as well.

Right now C/227 doesn't have a website up but one of our key guys has a Company newsletter going and you can contact him to contact C/227 vets:  Shelledad@aol.com.  The VN Helicopter Crewman Association is at

http://www.vhcma.org/, where I think a link to the 229^th can be found..   A/227 is   http://a227ahb.org/Homepage.html   and B/227 is http://www.masher.org/  .  I hope those help you out.

Welcome back into modeling!

clear right

Howie

The Huey's used in that movie where from the Philippine Army since the US Army didn't like the movie and would not support it

EDIT

That antenne was for a radio in that Huey, not just because it looked "cool". Not all Huey's carried the HF radio

I knew that they used the Ds and Hs in the movie, but unfortunately we are working under the direction of an outside designer who pretty much says what goes...and B model he wanted...I am really detail oriented and in anything I do I always strive for historical or cultural accuracy when possible.  Im in the themed entertainment business and its really important to me that if we are replicating something, that its done to the highest cailber, but unfortunately in this case we are just the fabricators :( So basically im making a huey from the movie that isnt from the movie if that makes any sense!  I have learned more than I thought I ever cared to know about these birds in the past few weeks, but its really interesting and amazing to find such knowledgeable people.

About the antenna, I had a feeling it was just something they added for coolness because ive searched and searched for what it was used for and primarily by what branch but couldnt turn anything up.  Then i found you guys.

The project is very unique to say the least, and when we are done and its open to the public i will post some pictures of it in place.  Basically we are taking the huey and scaling it down to about 70% full size, then we are only building the right half of it since its mounting on a wall, and the tail boom will also be terminating into a wall so the tailrotor wont even be there(not that it would be there since its on the left side).  We also are having to scale down the rotormast (which will be built from scratch) and rotors so after all that, itll basically just have the general shape of a huey and thats about it.  AND we had to flatten it due to space constraints so from the center to the widest part of the body is only 24"...Trust me if it would have been full size we would have purchased one! The sad thing is after all this tedious research and painstaking detail, that the majority of the tourists will be none the wiser, and most of those wont even know its from a movie...but im rambling...

Thanks again Ray for your insight so far and if i have any more questions i know where to come.

 -nate

Those maintenance manuals are great for reference, do you have more of those online somewhere?

icandrawem2 wrote:

Hey thanks for the quick response, all you guys are great with all this huey knowledge! I hate to be the picky one, but do you happen to have a picture of the underside of the skid showing the shoe?  It appears to be a rectangular metal plate that is just screwed onto the skid, with small 'bumpouts' where the screws are.  does it have any texture on it at all or is it smooth? One more question...we are specifically reproducing a huey from the film Apocalypse Now, and I know that films arent always historically accurate, but the heli in the film had an antenna mounted along the length of the tailboom, in a zigzag pattern...stood off of the tail boom about 4-5 inches or so.  Do you know the background on this antenna as to who used it and what models in was mostly used on.  And pictures would be great too.  Thanks so much for all your help!  -nate

Nate,

  First off, if your making a Huey from the movie, you don't want to be building a B model. The movie only used UH-1D/H models.  The B was the short bodied Huey used primarily as a gunship while the D/H model was almost exclusively a troop transport.  Among the hundreds of innacuracies in the movie, the Hueys errors were particularly egregious. Lemme know if you want to know or if you just want to build what's in the movie.  Personally, I think skid shoes  are the least of your concern. The antenna on the tailboom is a "long line" HF antenna. They ran down both sides of the tailboom to the stinger (tail skid).  They were not that prevalent on Hueys in Vietnam and my guess is they were used in the movie because they "looked cool."  However, I have seen them on Army and Marine Hueys in Vietnam photos.

Here's a pic of US Army UH-1D's with HF longline antennas. You can see that one bird does not have them.  I believe they were more prevalent on US ARmy Hueys early in the war.

" border="0" />

Here is the illustration from the organizational maintenance manual showing the skid shoe and it's attchments to the skid.

" border="0" />

In my opinion, your real conundrum is whether you want to be "accurate" to the movie or accurate to the real aircraft that served in Vietnam.  Let us know.  Hope that helps.

     Ray

Hey thanks for the quick response, all you guys are great with all this huey knowledge! I hate to be the picky one, but do you happen to have a picture of the underside of the skid showing the shoe?  It appears to be a rectangular metal plate that is just screwed onto the skid, with small 'bumpouts' where the screws are.  does it have any texture on it at all or is it smooth?

One more question...we are specifically reproducing a huey from the film Apocalypse Now, and I know that films arent always historically accurate, but the heli in the film had an antenna mounted along the length of the tailboom, in a zigzag pattern...stood off of the tail boom about 4-5 inches or so.  Do you know the background on this antenna as to who used it and what models in was mostly used on.  And pictures would be great too.  Thanks so much for all your help!

 -nate

Nate,

  Welcome to the forum!  You are referring to the skid shoes that were replaceable thin metal pads which covered the underside of the skids to prevent the actual skid from being damaged when in contact with the ground.  I'll get you some pic up later tonight.

      Ray

here are the pics I promised.  This is a UH-1B at Ft. Rucker's US Army Aviation Museum.  you can see the skid shoe bolted to the bottom of the skid.

" border="0" />

Hey everyone, I am working on a project in which we are building a "slightly smaller than full size" huey uh-1b and i am baffled as to what the bottom of the skid looks like.  From the pictures ive seen so far it appears that there is something bolted to the bottom of the tube for non-slip, but i need a photo of what it looks like.  Do any of you have photos or know of any that would reference this?  Thanks much for your help.

-Nate

Tom,

   I was talking to my dad the other day and he used a can of Speghetti on his 60.  He said it lasted most of his tour and was worn down to bare metal. He was gonna bring it home but some little Vietnamese kid stole it just before he left!  I woulda liked to have had that can just for the history it represented.  I guess he should have used Ham and limas, huh?!

     Ray

Thanks for the welcome guys.

Tom S.

Tom,

  Thanks for your service, sir!  Welcome to the forum.  I had always heard peaches were the best, but i can sure see how Ham and lima Beans would be better!  You wouldn't happen to have any scanned photos of helicopters you could post woudl you?  We'd love to see anything you have.  

     Ray

Howie Belkin wrote:

Tom "welcome home" and welcome to this forum.  And yep, the C-rat can had to be intact. Grandadjohn - you LIKED Ham and Lima Beans?  I wouldn't call you weird:  Dinky Dao is more like it!! Howie 'clear right' C/227 1st Air Cav 1969-70 DG

Must have had a warped childhood. The one I hated was Ham and Eggs, only good hot and with tons of anything to kill the taste

Tom

"welcome home" and welcome to this forum.  And yep, the C-rat can had to be intact.

Grandadjohn - you LIKED Ham and Lima Beans?  I wouldn't call you weird:  Dinky Dao is more like it!!

Howie 'clear right' C/227 1st Air Cav 1969-70 DG

Responses welcome anytime, please feel free to add any you have.

PS: Call me weird, but I liked Ham and Lima Beans

Dear Skypirate1,

And to all of you good guys who have posted a reply here.  I don't know if it's proper etiquette to add another response to this superb collection at such a late date, however, I have only recently come across this post, so please forgive me.

I'd like to add a comment concerning the use of a C-ration can as a feed guide for the M-60.  I personally used this arrangement and found it to be both simple and satisfactory.  One post I saw referred to a "used" C-ration can.  Anyone who used a "used" C-ration can, ie. a can that had been opened, quickly found out that the can squeezed shut and became out-of-round almost immediately following the first few rounds fired.  This was a "number ten" event.

In selecting a can to use, my personal favorite was "ham & limas."  This is because by using "ham & limas," nobody was likely to remove the can and eat the contents.  Ask anyone who's broken open a fresh case of C's, which meal was the last one taken from the case?  Ham & Limas!

By the way, did anyone else ever use the three prong flash suppressor from the early M-16 to twist open the wire that held the C-ration cases closed?

Tom,   A Co. 25th Aviation Bn (1967) and A Btry. 4/77th ARA (1969)

Howie,

  Good to hear from you, man!  I'll definitely be on the lookout for pics of some of those upgunned CAV slicks.  If you run across any, please post them here.  I, for one, would love to see 'em.  My two mantras regarding Vietnam: "Never say Never" and "Never forget!"

     Ray
 

Good luck on restoring the real one.

For the record for anyone else still watching this forum, I found an article in the VN Helo. Crewmembers Assoc Journal stating that after I left my unit, in late 1970-71, the Ghostriders of C Co/227AHB, 1st Air Cav "...had many of our H-models sporting miniguns on the left and .50 calibers on the right.  The inspiration for this configuration was the Nighthawk ship... the CO indulged our weapons choices, even though the 1st Aviation Brigade management did not especially care for a slick company to be armed in this unauthorized way..."  The US was unilaterally pulling out of Vietnam and the diminishing number of guys that were left wanted to increase their odds of coming home.  Some of these guns were simply hooked up to the pintle mounts that were there for the M60s!

Which comes back to one of my Murphy's Laws of Modeling:  Never Say Never!!

Howie 

Well, looks like I'm moving on to restoring a real one. UH-1C #66-00623. Tail numbers and stencils are there as is the Bell Helicopter rebuild data plate but vandals removed the other plates in the nose and Peter Pilot door frame. Anyone know where else I might find a number? This one served with 170th AHC Buccaneers, 135th AHC Taipans and C Troop 16th ACV Bushmasters. Took 6 rounds in 1969 with 170th with 1 WIA after taking hits in the cockpit. Still working on my 1/48th Hog and my 3d GMAX Flight Simulator models for a slew of 174th Sharks gunships.

I'll post a picture tonight of this one. It was modified for weapons test and bears four rockets stenciled to the door. The entire Peter Pilot station was removed, unique panel.

Pin has now been nailed back in with superglue. Thanks Aaron.

Rich

I thought when a topic was pinned it stayed at the top of the first page, so how come this was half way down page two???

Rich

Howie Belkin wrote:

Ray you read your history right.  Tet '68 was THE Tet everyone 'knows' about.  While I have to respect the enemy soldiers as fierce, determined bastards, I have no respect for folk like Giap, and General Hguyen Chi Thanh who drew up the plans for Tet '68.  How great a general are you if you don't care how many of your people you sacrifice?  That was true back in Dien Bien Phu vs the overwhelmingly out-numbered French, and Tet '68 especially around Khe Sanh.  Some top Vietnamese communists wrote after the war confirming that they thoroughly 'lost' Tet '68 to the point that the Viet Cong were no longer a viable force.  Colonel and diplomat Bui Tin wrote "While the enemy's losses were insignificant, ours were enormous... we did not recover until 1972."  Except of course politically, thanks to Walter Cronkite and company who like their media brethern today, grabbed defeat out of the jaws of victory. Every year had a Tet but none were as significant as 1968 - unless 'you were there,' having to live through it!  clear right Howie

an excellent post on what really happened (sorry Dan Rather). In the 1968 Tet Offensive we kicked his butt all the way back into the stoneage, and he still remembers it very well. One estimate has 325,000 KIA on the little guys side of the street. By the end of the month of May the local VC were a rare find, and only existed in small pockets. Yes there were still a few here and there, but most of the leftovers had gone into the Laotian frontier. But what they never really expected was that some folks followed them back into Laos. (SOG teams)

     We still get to hear about how successful they were in taking control of the U.S. Embassy (no they never had control). But they did manage to take control of Cho Lon and actually hold it for a couple of weeks till the 101st and a Panther Battalion evicted them in some of the most brutal house to house fighting the world has ever known to this day. Then there was the Race Track in Siagon (Sin Loi Victor Charles, but it's still Siagon in this old man's book). One batallion from the 101st took that place in one of the bloodiest actions ever seen in modern warfare (you won't see a photo op there as nobody likes to run with the 101st). When it was over there was about a company and a half standing, but the other guys knew they were not ever going to be welcome there again.

     When Giap stepped on Superman's cape he had no idea what kinda dancing partner he had taken up with. Giap learned new names such as "snakeyes" , cobras, and best of all "class A loads." Met the folks from the 1st Air Cav, and 101st Airborne. By the month of June he was sending teenage kids to do his dirty work, and we were burying them just as fast

Lastly: I think everybody here needs to find a copy of "The Valley Of Decision". It's about Khe Sanh and the surrounding AO. It's not like the history chnnel ever dreamed it could have been. The book is very accurate. And after reading it you'll soon figure out who's got the facts and who did a TV show on it.

gary

Ray

you read your history right.  Tet '68 was THE Tet everyone 'knows' about.  While I have to respect the enemy soldiers as fierce, determined bastards, I have no respect for folk like Giap, and General Hguyen Chi Thanh who drew up the plans for Tet '68.  How great a general are you if you don't care how many of your people you sacrifice?  That was true back in Dien Bien Phu vs the overwhelmingly out-numbered French, and Tet '68 especially around Khe Sanh.  Some top Vietnamese communists wrote after the war confirming that they thoroughly 'lost' Tet '68 to the point that the Viet Cong were no longer a viable force.  Colonel and diplomat Bui Tin wrote "While the enemy's losses were insignificant, ours were enormous... we did not recover until 1972."  Except of course politically, thanks to Walter Cronkite and company who like their media brethern today, grabbed defeat out of the jaws of victory.

Every year had a Tet but none were as significant as 1968 - unless 'you were there,' having to live through it! 

clear right

Howie

rotorwash wrote:

Gary,   1968 TET was the BIG ONE at Bein Hoa.  Check Jon Berstein's (Cobrahistorian) excellent "US Army AH-1 Cobra Units in Vietnam" for an idea of what it was like down there during TET '68.  I'm glad dad missed that one!  By the way, don't worry about correcting me, my friend.  I wasn't there, you were.  If you say TET was worse for you guys in '69, I trust ya!       Ray

Trust me there was no lack of excitment in I-Corps as well. Chu Lai was probably the prime target in I-Corps because that's where all the Navy and Marine fighter bombers did the turn around on their raids in North Vietnam. Rarely did we ever get an air strike out of Chu Lai, but always seemed to come from Da Nang. They seemed to hit about every place that could be hit with something. It was rough, and I'd have to say for the first two weeks it was pretty much give and take. Still looking back I think that many of us had somekind of an advanced warning that things were about get get ugly (very). We'd all been following the events at Khe San and of course Lang Vie just up the road. We listened to them on the fire push when reception was good. Then they came accross the DMZ and over ran a couple places, and we got ready.

     In 1969 it was different. It was kinda quiet with the usual probes and a few rockets here and there. Then all of a sudden the strip of ground we sat in the middle was the center of attraction for every Tom, Dick & Harry. Giap was smart, as he new there wasn't much if any infantry west of us, and just a re-enforced battalion east of us. For us 1969 was far worse. We had no way to get help by land, and the only way out of there was cut off within minutes. I've heard that there is a book in the works on this one.

     I'd suggest that all you guys that are into armor look for a copy of Dwight Birdwell's "Hundred Miles Of Bad Road." One chapter in there is about Bin Hoa during Tet in 68. It'll make the hair stand up on your head. Tobe exact this book is a must read.

gary

Gary,

  1968 TET was the BIG ONE at Bein Hoa.  Check Jon Berstein's (Cobrahistorian) excellent "US Army AH-1 Cobra Units in Vietnam" for an idea of what it was like down there during TET '68.  I'm glad dad missed that one!  By the way, don't worry about correcting me, my friend.  I wasn't there, you were.  If you say TET was worse for you guys in '69, I trust ya!

      Ray