Andy,

  I get what your saying, but the argument could also be made that the left guns had the brass bags because the tail rotor was on the left side!  That's what I was laways led to believe anyhow.

     Ray

Randie,

From what i can gather so far, it appears that spent shell bags and deflectors were used on different ships for different reasons.

The main reason the 1st Air Cav "Slick" Companies used bags was to stop shells flying back into the crew compartment, causing a mess and creating a slip hazard for the troops being inserted. It was also pretty common for the odd HOT shell to find a home nestling in between the helmet and shirt collar of a very unhappy and preoccupied pilot! Tail Rotor damage wasnt really much of an issue! thats why they only usually had the bags attached to the LEFT side M60 (as the 229th AHB picture i posted above shows).

It was a different story for the Gunship Companies. Most didnt have mounted M60s, so the gunners could lean out and fire from all angles. Also unlike the slicks, the gunships would dive in on a target and the danger was, when they would break off, they would pull up hard and the tail rotor would suddenly be in the direct line of spent door gun shells and thats how the majority of TR's were torn up! It wasnt to bad though, 9 times out of 10 it was just a case of replacing the Rotor. Although this would get the "Tops" a bit miffed as some companies were getting through quite a few tail rotors and orders started coming down for gunners to hold their M60s upside down and on a unit level to make some kind of deflector or screen for the guns (probably like the one in the picture). They didnt last long though, as the screens created drag, which slowed the helicopters down and caused extra strain. So most were binned.

The pilots were also told to "Be gentle with the helicopter" and to "Quit breaking off from the target so violent" !! To avoid spent brass TR damage, which obviously didnt go down very well as it would mean putting the helicopters and crews at greater risk of getting hit.

Anyway i hope that helps.

Andy 

Jon,

Great shot! Dont often see photos with the markings still on the jump doors. I dont have any info on 63-08781 but heres a pic of 63-08778 ("Yellow Two" in the photo, next to Bruce Crandalls "Ancient Serpent 6")  Its one of my favorite 229th AHB shots, taken in Jan/Feb 1966 at Bong Son, during the start of Operation Masher/White wing.

778 sadly crashed a year later on 2 April 67 resulting in the death of the 20 year old door gunner.

The only other thing that might help in identifying the huey in your pic, could be the White blade antenna. Ive seen quite a few shots of 229 birds serving in the same companies from 65/66 that had the White blade along with ships that had the OD blade In the pic i posted ,778 has OD. So either it was painted or replaced, or (Probably more likely) its a shot of 63-08781.

EDIT.. the blade antenna in the pic are BLACK and not OD as i stated and were not allowed to be painted. (thanks grandad). So the blade was either replaced or its a photo of 63-08781.

Andy.

Well, here's an interesting shot.  Nothing out of the ordinary on this one. Its a standard UH-1D, but take a look at the markings.  This pic was taken in the Spring of 1965, IIRC at Ft. Benning, GA and it shows either UH-1D 63-08778 or 63-08781 (can't really tell, but with the numbers I can make out, those are the only two it could be) from A/229th AHB, 11th Air Assault Division.  It is a large file, but both Photobucket and the forum are limiting its size, so the resolution isn't the greatest. 

Never even thought of that. Makes sense, now.

My son has told me they call those black, government issued ink pens........ 99 cent missiles, out on the flight line! 

Randie,

  The Brass bag kept spent brass out of the tail rotor.  FOD is BAD!

        Ray

PS: Perhaps Mel or Grandad can give more insight into the use of these safety devices! 

skypirate1 wrote:

Lastly, this one is quite interesting as it shows a mounted M60 with some type of shield on the right instead of a spent brass bag on the right. And on the left im not sure whats going on! either another shield, a belt or a magazine? Andy

I am not positive, Andy. But, it appears to be an improvised brass deflector. Although it appears to be below the ejection port. That may be the angle of the picture.

I never did understand the reason for having a spent brass bag on them anyway. It's not like they took it back and reloaded it. Maybe someone can clarify this for me.  

Thanks Ray,

I'll get Airmobile by Jim Mesko too.

How come I keep seeing his name in most of the 'Nam pubs? I don't read the author bios. I just like all the pretty pictures

i got the 204 yesterday and opened it up. all good. now I have to see if Italeri's going to reply with my "missing" parts.

Kris,

  check the first page of this thread for a list of most of my refs including "Huey" along with my assessment of each as a ref.  the short answer is YES, it's a great ref for VN Huey stuff with a special section on Huey INFANT system. It's 63 pages long with seven pages of color. Good luck!

    Ray

BTW

for a modeling 'note,' if you guys noticed the last of Ray's photos, of a/c no. 238 - the O.D. paint on the bottom of the door is a different OD than the rest of the gunship.  A previous number or insignia was oversprayed, then the 238 added.  Note also the kill markings, and the window in the door has been slid halfway down (a nice touch for your model).

On the photo above it you can see a totally different shade of OD thru the glass window than on the rest of that gunship (and is that a 'sling' on the M-60, to help carry it when discmounted?).  This isn't necessarily the case here - but aside from 'patches' to cover damage and bullet holes, often an entire panel or a door may have been replaced on a ship with a different shade of OD. I don't know of a man alive who stood there with a paint chip and tried to match it up!  When you see a window or chin bubble outlined with a white-ish cream color, that was the bare fiberglass - that window,etc is a replacement.

I noticed in this set of photos too, that in the earlier VN war years the M-60 generally still had the infantry butt stock.  Mid and later years you generally saw the aviator spade grips on it.

Howie   

Excellent photos Ray, and I absolutely 'second' that about 'never say never.'  I'm sure that applies to just about every war!  The VN war was totally different from one war zone to another at the exact same time.  As it was the same base, different times!  When you think in terms of say, WWII, that's not surprising.  The Italian theatre with its mountains and valleys was different than NW Europe... much less the Pacific theatre! 

Glad to see my Nevada Gambler (or whatever she was renamed) made it home.  Thanks for that info and correcting the serial.  Now I have to keep an eye open and see if I run into her!

I've been keeping an eye on the forum but you guys 'have forgotten more than I ever knew,' so I try not to pipe up unless I've really got something to add!  Thanks again,

Howie

Moxey,

  While M60A's were slung from bungee cords, they were also mounted on sagami mounts, unit specific swinging mounts attached to the M156 universal mount (238 AWC), and shot freehand with no restraint. CHeck out the pics below:

M60 on a bungee:

[img]http://

Free gunning:

[img]http://

Sagami mount:

[img]http://

238 AWC unique mounting system:

[img]http://
 

There may even be more that I haven't mentioned.  Vietnam was a complicated war and airmobility was in it's infancy.  Almost nothing was sacred and MANY things were tried.  The one thing I have learned is NEVER say NEVER with regards to Vietnam and the inginuity of those who fought there.

  Ray
 

Hi,

   Huey 1c M60 machine guns weren,t mounted as such but were slung from the doorway surround on strong fabric or leather strap or sling.This I obsreved in the Squadron/Signal book on this type of helicopter.

                                  Moxey.

Howie,

  67-16642 was an OH-6A according to the USAF serial numbers page Chief Snake gave me: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/usafserials.html

Great to see you back in the forums! I assume you meant 66-16642.  Jon may be able to give you more recent data, but here is the Gold Book data I have for your bird.  As you can see, if this is your bird, she made it back in one piece. The last info I have is from 1975.

      Ray
 

Helicopter UH-1H 66-16642

While on a maintenance test flight, the aircraft was put into an autorotation to check the autorotation RPM. The pilot attempted a power recovery from the autorotation but the engine failed to respond. The autorotation was continued to touch down in a rice paddy

This record was last updated on 04/13/97

Information on U.S. Army helicopter UH-1H tail number 66-16642
The Army purchased this helicopter 0767
Total flight hours at this point: 00001604
Date: 07/06/69
Accident case number: 690706051
Unit: 388 TC CO
The station for this helicopter was Dong Tam in
Number killed in accident = 0 . . Injured = 0 . . Passengers = 0
costing 500
Source(s) from which the incident was created or updated: Army Aviation Safety Center database.

Crew Members:
AC W1 GARBER DW

Accident Summary:

WHILE HOVERING AT POL AREA AC WAS CLEARED BY CE & G TO LND ACFT LND ON TOP OF SMALL FIRE EXTING WHICH CAUSED SKIN DAM \

The following is Goldbook information on US Army helicopter UH-1H tail number 66-16642
It is provided here as an ESTIMATE of the history of this helicopter and is not intended to be the final authority.
This helicopter was purchased by the US Army in 0767.
Please provide any additional information on this helicopter to the VHPA.

DATE  FLT HRS    UIC      UNIT          AREA          POST          COUNTRY
6707   0    0 W0Y6AA INTRANSIT        IN TRANSIT                  AVCOMCTR
6708  89   89 WAAXA0 COA 229ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6709 127  216 WAAXA0 COA 229ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6710  75  291 WAAXA0 COA 229ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6711 106  397 WAAXA0 COA 229ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6712 139  536 WAAXA0 COA 229ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6801  49  585 3261   355 AVN CO       4TH ARMY   FORT SILL        4TH ARMY
6802  87  672 WAAXA0 COA 229ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6803  37  709 3261   355 AVN CO       4TH ARMY   FORT SILL        4TH ARMY
6804  65  774 3261   BELL HCPTR       BAILMENT   FT WORTH         AVCOM
6805   0  774 WC5GAA 610 TRANS CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
6806   0  774 WC5GAA 610 TRANS CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
6807   0  774 W0Y6AA OS TO CONUS      ITR CONUS                   AVCOMITR
6808   0  774 W0MUAA ARADMAC          IN STORAGE NAVAL AIR STN    AVCOM
6809   0  774 W0MUAA ARADMAC          IN MAINT   NAVAL AIR STN    AVCOM
6810   2  776 W0MUAA ARADMAC          4TH ARMY   NAVAL AIR STA    AVCOM
6811  22  798 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6812 153  951 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6901 115 1066 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6902 157 1223 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6903 166 1389 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6904  39 1428 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6905  80 1508 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6906  84 1592 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6907  12 1604 WCLSAA 388 TRANS CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
6908   0 1604 WCLSAA 388 TRANS CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
6909  78 1682 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6910  65 1747 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6911  65 1812 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6912  83 1895 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7001 119 2014 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7002 102 2116 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7003 100 2216 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7004 137 2353 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7005 115 2468 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7006  78 2546 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7007 112 2658 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7008 125 2783 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7009 128 2911 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7010 109 3020 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7011  75 3095 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7012  15 3110 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7101  81 3191 WAAVC0 C 227TH BN       VIETNAM                     RVN
7102  56 3247 WAAVC0 C 227TH BN       VIETNAM                     RVN
7103  96 3343 WAAVC0 C 227TH BN       VIETNAM                     RVN
7104  90 3433 WAAVC0 C 227TH BN       VIETNAM                     RVN
7105  63 3496 WAAVC0 C 227TH BN       VIETNAM                     RVN
7106  63 3559 WAAVC0 C 227TH BN       VIETNAM                     RVN
7107  50 3609 WAAVC0 227 AHC C CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
7108  89 3698 WAAVC0 227 AHC C CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
7109  69 3767 WAAVC0 227 AHC C CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
7110  57 3824 WAAVC0 60 AHC           VIETNAM                     RVN
7111  78 3902 WAAVC0 60 AHC           VIETNAM                     RVN
7112  46 3948 WAAVC0 60 AHC           VIETNAM                     RVN
7201  95 4043 WAYHAA 60 AHC           VIETNAM                     RVN
7202   0 4043 WAYHAA 60 AHC           VIETNAM                     RVN
7203   0 4043 W0Y6AA OS TO CONUS      ITR CONUS                   AVSCOM
7204   0 4043 W0Y6AA OS TO CONUS      ITR CONUS                   AVSCOM
7205   0 4043 W0Y6AA OS TO CONUS      ITR CONUS                   AVSCOM
7206   0 4043 W0Y6AA OS TO CONUS      ITR CONUS                   AVSCOM
7207   4 4047 W0Y6AA ARADMAC          IN MAINT   NAVAL AIR STN    AVSCOM
7208  28 4075 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7209  35 4110 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7210  31 4141 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7211   2 4143 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7212   1 4144 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7301  28 4172 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7302  28 4200 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7303  69 4269 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7304  25 4294 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7305  28 4322 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7306  19 4341 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7307  11 4352 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7308   7 4359 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7309   9 4368 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7310  17 4385 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7311  26 4411 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7312  21 4432 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7401  13 4445 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7402  14 4459 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7403  13 4472 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7404  12 4484 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7405  27 4511 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7409   0 4558 W12K01 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7410   0 4558 W12K01 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7411   0 4558 W12K01 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7412   0 4558 W12K01 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7501   3 4561 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7502   0 4561 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7503   0 4561 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7504   0 4561 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7505   9 4570 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7506   6 4576 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7507   1 4577 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7509   0 4581 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7510   0 4581 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7511   0 4581 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7512   0 4581 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM

Jon

sorry I can't help you with your inquiry, but would your VHPA/Goldbook have an entry on my  UH-1H no. 67-16642 letting me know what happened to her?  If not, any suggestions where I can look to find out?

Howie

Jon,

  Holy crap, where's my witching stick!  You don't ask for much do ya!

          Ray

Ok guys, I've got a mission for ya.

I'm looking for information on UH-1D 65-09712.  I've got the VHPA/Goldbook entry on it and it says that it was shot down and recovered on 2 Feb 67.  There is NO other information on it with regards to crew, units, etc., only that it was a "Loss to Theater".  I ask because this very same helicopter is now sitting at Fort Indiantown Gap with two other Hueys in the "boneyard".  Looks like it could be brought back to flyable condition pretty quickly though.  Its last home was with the NY Guard before being sent out to EAATS and then set off to the side.  This one looks like it is possibly a fairly historic aircraft.

Thanks in advance!

Jon
 

On page 15 there is some info about door gunners using magazines on their M60's, i still havnt come across any shots of the "D" shaped magazine being used. Most gunship M60 photos are the usual "C-Rat Can" type, so i thought i would throw up some more unusual pictures.

Lastly, this one is quite interesting as it shows a mounted M60 with some type of shield on the right instead of a spent brass bag on the right. And on the left im not sure whats going on! either another shield, a belt or a magazine?

Andy 

Great screensaver! Thanks Ray .

Andy

Here is a link to Bell Helicopter screen savers, including a tribute to the HUEY:

http://www.crescentair.com/coolbottom.htm 

Thought some of you might like it.  There are some 1st CAV pics from Vietnam in the slideshow as well as a cool pic of a XM-22 outfitted YUH-1D test bird.  Overall a neat screensaver.

     Ray
 

Kris,

  The yellow on the roof would be a stripe painted to keep helos from hitting each other in flight (a high vis marking).  These markings varied by unit and by the time frame which the aircraft served. If you want to build the aircraft you posted (using the Italeri B as the base) simply get the rotors of the Esci/Ertl/Italeri UH-1D (take 2 scale feet out of the middle of each rotor).  Then get the particle sperator and tail fin from the Italeri C model.  Scratch build the nose mounted pitot and the roof mounted "towel bar" antenna. Use the horizontal stabs included in the B kit and viola, you got the bird you posted.  

   As for the Uh-1F/P.  The UH-1F was designed originally for the Air Force to service ICBM missile sites.  Because the Air Force had a bunch of GE T58-GE-3 engines laying around they asked Bell to design a Huey around it. That's why the exhaust comes out the left side unlike all other Hueys.  The UH-1F also incorporated the larger 48 ft diameter rotor of the UH-1D and thus required the D model tailboom which made the whole ship longer than the other short fuselage variants.  The rotor head is the same 205 rotor head found on D and H models.  When the 20th SOS went to Vietnam they camouflaged their hueys.  Colors were Dark Green (FS34079), Tan (FS30219), and Light Gray (FS36622).  The slick transport birds were armed with twin M60A's on Sagami mounts.  When armed as a gunship with 7 shot 2.75 inch FFAR rocket launchers and M-93 minigins in the door, they were referred to as UH-1P's.  This model is officially described as a psyops bird, but that was because the 20th SOS was conducting a lot of cross border operations and didn't want their true nature disclosed.  The unit was called the GREEN HORNETS.  The twin blade antennae were VHF/UHF dua antennas and were characteristic of the USAF UH-1F/P.  That should at least get you started.

   Ray
 

Ok... I'm glad you can pat yourself on the back because you know it's a B model. Now, are you going to help me out or what? The yellow on the roof... do you know what the deal is? since the aircraft in the picture IS A B MODEL, I should just change the stabilizers, get different blades, take off the pitot from the roof, call it a modified B since that's what it is, and try again for a C model. Where can I get the parts that I need?

What about the F model? any info?

Kris,

 Sorry about that, i've always been told the rotors on all Italeri kits were wrong, but it looks like it's only their 1/48 and 1/35 scale kits-see I finally got it right!  As I said it really doesn't matter since the tiny blades supplied with the kit are virtually unfixable.  i have never really looked at them as closely as I should.  As for the 121st Huey, its a B model with the C model tail boom installed and the particle filter exactly as I mentioned above.  It has the 204 rotor head and the narrow chord horizontal stabs and the nose mounted pitot.  Case closed!

    Ray
 

Ummm... I'm looking at them from the top... and they turn counter-clockwise... all of them.

besides that, this is the Huey I'm building as a C model. Wait a minute, Ray, you posted this one in the unusual hueys thread. The info I have says: UH-1C #36 of 121st AHC SOC TRANG on both the books and the decal sheet. The differences between this picture and the one in the books, the Grenade launcher has a cartoon bunny called Thumper on the left side, and and the yellow marking on the roof of this one, and I don't see the bunny in this picture. Oh, something else, the pitot on this one is on the nose... I can't tell in the books, but the decal sheet has it on the roof. Now, I don't know WTF to do.

Kris,

  Trust me the Italeri B, C, and F 1/72 kit's rotors turn backwards relative to US Hueys -never "trust" me, make me prove it! wrong again.  Also, as I said before, they are too small anyway, even for an A model!  Also, the rotor blades lack trim tabs which are very obvious on Hueys.   It can be difficult to tell a B model fom a C model because during the course of the Vietnam War the original air intakes were replaced with the particle filters usually associated with C models. Also, some B model tailbooms failed and were replaced with C model tailbooms.  However, you can always tell a B from a C by the horizontal stabs, rotor head, and easiest of all, the fuel filler position.  The horizontal stabs on a Bravo are symmetrical in cross section and are narrow.  Charlies have an assymetrical cross section and a wider chord.  As I said before the 540 and 204 rotor heads are very different. Finally, the Bravo has the fuel filler on the right and the Charlie has it on the left.  The pitot tube is on the nose in a Bravo, but on the roof in the Charlie.  The nose mounted FM antennas aren't reliable as many were replaced with a roof mounted antenna during the war.  My guess is that it is identified correctly on this forum.  The guys here know their stuff.  If you still have a question, post the photo in question and one of us will ID it for you.

  Ray