Vietnam Huey

Well, I think I can FINALLY put this M60 thing to bed.  The irony is that the answer to my question (what was removed from the M60 that was replaced with a C-ration can?)was staring right at me on this thread the whole time.  I showed this thread to my dad the other day and he saw this pic posted by Skypirate:

[img]http://

He said the metal belt guide you see in this photo is the stock part that was replaced with a C-ration can.  Thank you mister gunner for holding that gun upside down! 

To really finish this story off, here is a Vietnam era M60A1 (courtesy of Army Aviation Museum) showing the attachment points for the C-ration can (it is exactly what Andrew posted way up there so long ago):

[img]http://

Also, this is a great shot of the Monkey Belt.

Here is the pic of the newer M60E1 showing where the attachment points have been moved to:

[img]http://

Now I finally know what was replaced and what was changed.  Thanks, Andrew, for keeping me honest!

Ray 

I served from 92-2000. I had one gunner when I was weapons squad leader with the 25th infantry division who used the bags attached to the pig in this way. They would come in a cardboard box with this bag, the box top was ripped off, the box was kept in the bag along with the ammo laid in nicely to feed properly. I only saw it done infrequently and he literally tied the bag to feeder which is what we called it (Not to be confused with the feed tray). This was to prevent the ammunition from dragging in the dirt or beating the hell out of you during 3-5 second rushes, which yes, even gunners have to do when they arent in an overwatch position. Nothing like watching someone go a$$ over t!t because they stepped on their ammo belt and buried their M60 barrel first into the dirt.

The early APH5 helmets came white for high visibility. My father said besides painting them they also taped them with colored tape to reduce the visibility. Later versions, including the APH5 were manufactured in OD. Not only did they have to turn these items in before rotating to the world they got hassled on appearance, meaning they werent always allowed to return with their handle bar Cav moustaches or pocket patches on their Nomex. I collect only US Army Aviation Vietnam items. I have quite a few pockets patches. nomex tops and bottoms and other items myself. I am still missing my C Co 227th which was my fathers unit. Hard to find.

[img]http://

Just going back to that M60 ammo box thread at the top of the page, there is a coloured plate in the Osprey book The Marine Corp in Vietnam which has a pic of it, described in the text as..."an assault pack of 100 rounds of 7.62mm belted ammunition...issued in a cardboardbox and cloth bandolier and carried two per metal ammunition container or ammo can". The pic is identicle to the pic Ray posted in his thread.

Rich

Andy

I saw an interiew of Oliver Stone on TV several yrs ago and he blew off the interviewer stating he "made a movie.  A movie has nothing to do with reality or with history, it's a movie..." or something close to that.  The Capt. he served under in Nam wrote a book stating that Stone was on another planet because none of what he showed in PLATOON ever happened.  And 'they' worshipped at Stone's feet that here was a real Nam combat infantry vet, in total control of his film, so you KNOW what you're seeing is the way it was!  God help us!  So he folded for the almighty dollar.  On the other hand, no book or movie would see the light of day in the 1960s-1980s unless it portrayed the US or GIs as bad, sadistic, psycho killers, Hollywierd being what it is.

I'll have to ask the C/227 guys to gather their thoughts while we're still in our right minds, and see about some kind of compilation.

Hollywood drives me nuts though.  Recently there was a flop about WWI, loosely on the Lafayette Escadrille.  It could have been a true, straight from life story about them with no BS, no lies.  It WAS a colorful outfit with colorful characters - there was absolutely no need to go with total fiction.  It could have been 95% true story and been great.  And people generally believe whatever they see in the movies as being true, too!

Everyone's heard the quote about learning from history but then we refuse to study or learn the real history and keep on repeating the same mistakes.  We had many 'lessons learned' from WWII, Korea, Malaysia, Algeria, Nam... but keep letting the politicians run and ruin everything.

If you have sons gents, keep them out of harm's way.  If they must go in the service, let it be behind a computer console where there's an equivelant civilian job that pays six figure incomes. 

Howie

Andy

none of our slicks had chutes, and neither of the guns on the helicopter I was assigned to had them so I just got down to business with what we had.  I don't know why we didn't have them for the slicks, but as it's been said, it was a lot faster to load w/o them.

that is Nevada Gambler on the C/227 website.  My crewchief was from Nevada.  There was an awesome AH-1G with Arizona Gambler and a rattlesnake (Cobra?) nose art at our base.  I insisted on painting nose art, the crewchief said he'd look the other way but I agreed to a name he'd agree to.

I had a yellow/black 1^st Cav Div insignia centered on the back, bottom.  Then I painted a yellow streak (line) from over the insignia to over the top to the front of the helmet, like a football helmet stripe.  Then on my right side on the visor cover I copied a 1960's peace poster with Snoopy ‘dancing' throwing flowers in the air, and over that in an arc the words Feeling Groovy!  It wasn't professionally done but it looked like what it was supposed to look like.

When guys got on I got mixed reactions.  I guess enough grunts thought I was nuts, a lot thought it was funny as it was - incongruous?  Some must have thought I was a hippie draftee (negative on both accounts).

We joked about the 1^st Cav insignia representing ‘the horse that couldn't be ridden, the river that couldn't be crossed, and the color the reason why!"  When I got  there I didn't know if was going to do what I had to do, or turn yellow and want to run and hide, so my ‘yellow streak' football stripe was my little head trip/personal statement.  For what it's worth I found you basically ‘reacted' to ea situation. 

And no dammit, I turned in everything!  A day or so before I was supposed to leave, the clerk came up and gave me my orders and told me I had to turn everything in NOW, catch a flight in fifteen minutes or spend several more days there.  I really wanted my nomex shirt with our cool co. Ghostrider patch.  It would be 30 yrs before I had one of those patches again!  Forget about the helmet!  I recently picked up a GI Joe doorgunner and when I'm up to it, was going to recreate the helmet art - in miniature.

Howie

skypirate1 wrote:

GrandadJohn, Thanks for the info, it does make sense that the 60s were loaded faster without the chutes, i wonder how many holes in helmets it took before someone decided white probably wasnt the best color! Andy

I don't know, but in my opinion one would have been one too many

Howie,

Did you want the chutes or was you happy with what you had? I saw your pictures on the C/227 site was that your "Nevada gambler" art work on the nose? Just out of interest, what did you paint on your helmet? Ive seen some great ones, i spoke to a guy on one of the other threads regarding artwork on helmets his comment made me laugh, its worth sharing..

" It reminds me of a helicopter pilot's helmet that flew me into a fire. On the back of his helmet he had a broken helicopter inside a red circle with a line through it and in block letters below that Crashing Sucks. I wasn't sure if I should feel comfortable that he was against crashing or be concerned that he might have more experience with aerial mishaps than most."

Did you guys get to bring your helmets home? as it looks like alot of work went into some of them and it would be terrible to have had to leave them behind.

Andy

GrandadJohn,

Thanks for the info, it does make sense that the 60s were loaded faster without the chutes, i wonder how many holes in helmets it took before someone decided white probably wasnt the best color!

Andy

Ed & Howie.

It does seem unfair that the history of the 227th isnt as well known as the 229th, though its probably just due to books like 'Chickenhawk' and 'We were soldiers' and obviously the movie. Maybe some of the guys from your unit should get together and tell their stories, as i know, from my research, there are many to be told.

On the subject of the 'We were soldiers' movie, Its interesting to note the anger expressed by Hal Moore in a later interview over some of the scenes. I know that many of the guys on here will already know, but for the benifit of those that dont, The last part of the movie never happened!, although the 1/7th guys did fix bayonets they never charged the enemy as depicted and the Bruce Crandall single handed gunship frenzy at the end of the Movie was sheer fantasy. When moore confronted the director Randall Wallace over the scenes, he was told.. "Hal its a movie..not the history channel" lol.

I think its great that people want to make films and publicise what you guys went through over in Vietnam. And the whole motivation behind it these days is to finaly show the truth, but in the middle of trying to do it they create more lies, i understand that thats the nature and the attraction of Hollywood, but i think because of the nature of the whole Vietnam war issue when dealing with a film on the subject, the one real tribute and groundbreaking step forward would be to just stick to the FACTS, i think its about time, after 40 years of living with controversy and lies the veterans deserve nothing less than the facts, otherwise whats the point.

Thats my opinion anway .

Thats why i think it so important that you guys tell your stories and share your info and its great that people are starting to collect oral histories and finaly giving you guys an oppertunity to tell your side of the story so that future generations arent left with the same media based impression of the last 40 years. I dont agree with all the descisions of your government or mine and i dont agree with many aspects of the Vietnam war, or any war, i just believe that its about time that the guys in the field stopped being blamed for the descisions made by the guys in the air conditioned office. I have the upmost respect for any guy that places himself in the line of fire ,as if he makes mistakes in combat not only is he a target for the enemy he becomes a target at home. (if that makes sense). Anyway i think its time people at home in their courtroom armchairs, reading their (edited, to attract sales) newspapers, stopped judging and started understanding.

Ive learnt so much from guys like you, its opened my eyes and i just wish everyone could hear the stories, It would be great to see a book about the 227th AHB.

Andy 

rotorwash wrote:

Andrew,   I think I get it.  The dash 10 I mentioned above is from 1998.  I bet if I can find the original dash 10 manual from the 60's it will show the configuration you illutsrated initially.  I assumed that the M60 mentioned in the manual was the same as the original M60A, but it appears that that is not the case.  At any rate, just another detail to work out.  There should be an old M60 lying around Ft. Rucker.  I'll just have to have a look at one if I get a chance.  Thanks for your help.  Believe it or not, yur original post did make sense to me, I was just trying to figure out what part was scrapped for the C-ration can.  I hope you hang around the forum with the rest of the vets to help keep us civilians honest.  I think I speak for all of us when I say it wouldn't be the same without you guys input.     Ray

Thanks Ray, there are no problems here at all and I assure you that I ain't going nowhere (does that double negative mean that I am going somewhere?), I was just trying to bring my contribution to the circlular discussion to a timely end. 

My main reason for hanging around this forum is the Huey info, I'm planning my first scale RC build of a UH-1B and this forum has been a terrific research tool, this thread in particular.

BTW... I would not consider myself a VET in any shape or form.  I am a 45 y.o. who joined at 17 and discharged only having ever served on nothing more frightening than a peacekeeping mission.  But I certainly do tips me hat to those that have served in any capacity.

Ray

your 'Got Ammo' guy's not planning on going anywhere soon!

thanx to all you guys for teaching this old dog new tricks.  You've taught me a few things I never knew!  And that airsoft gun looks real at a glance.  It'd look great on the mantle!

Howie

Andrew,

  I think I get it.  The dash 10 I mentioned above is from 1998.  I bet if I can find the original dash 10 manual from the 60's it will show the configuration you illutsrated initially.  I assumed that the M60 mentioned in the manual was the same as the original M60A, but it appears that that is not the case.  At any rate, just another detail to work out.  There should be an old M60 lying around Ft. Rucker.  I'll just have to have a look at one if I get a chance.  Thanks for your help.  Believe it or not, yur original post did make sense to me, I was just trying to figure out what part was scrapped for the C-ration can.  I hope you hang around the forum with the rest of the vets to help keep us civilians honest.  I think I speak for all of us when I say it wouldn't be the same without you guys input.

    Ray

Howie Belkin wrote:

I never saw a magazine/ammo box for any M-60 or even heard of one either...

I think I'll sign off from the "method of hanging a ration can" debate by making a last comment and then letting it.  It seems to be going in circles.

As I said earlier, I am not sure when the M60 changed to have the large flat metal plate on the side.  It is definately different from the ones that I used.

Here is the pic I posted earlier;

And when compared to this pic;

You can see that there are significant differences.

To hang a C-ration can on the M60 on the top pic was a pretty easy thing to do, they just clicked in place.... now, back to your regular transmission.

Clear.... underneath

OK guys,

  First off, thanks for all the responses.  Andy, I hope you aren't upset that the thread went off ona tangent, but, once again, something I thought would be simple is anything but!

   After a LOOONG time consulting Dr. Google, I finally found a picture of the M60 cloth ammo mag:

Also, I found this pic that just made me smile.  I call it "GOT AMMO?":

 [img]http://

I spoke with my father (who was an armorer) and he remembers removing something that sounds like the plate pictured below.  I believe he referred to it as "a piece of junk" that was replaced with either a full or empty C-ration can (at least he remmebers using both).  I think the correct term for the metal plate is the "hanger" as in where you would hang the cloth magazine:

[img]http://

Finally, have any of you run accross any pics of these things:

[img]http://

It looks like a M60 but it's an airsoft gun.  Man, if somebody come down my street toting one of these I'd assume he was looking to get fragged.  It looks real until you take a very close look (at least to this civilian).

    Ray

EDIT:  Jackpot, I finally found the dash 10 manual for the M60.  Go to the US Ordinance site to download it:

http://www.usord.com/download_USORD.html 

Here are the relevent pages, read description of part "J":

[img]http://[img]http://" border="0" />[/img]

I can add to a couple of previous queries.

I never saw a magazine/ammo box for any M-60 or even heard of one either...

Ray - I don't recall that plate being there, and believe it was replaced in Vietnam with C-ration can...

Andy - we didn't have ammo chutes for either gunner or C.E. in C/227AHB 1969-early 1970.  I only saw them attached to a minigun on our, Nighthawk.  I assume they DIDN'T snag much because the ammo would have been flying thru the chute for the minigun...

Helmets were supplied OD.  I heard that guys STOPPED painting their helmets because it made an easy target from a distance.  Being a modeler before I went to Nam, I was determined to have nose art and an interesting helmet, so I painted / personalized my helmet myself and was the first and only one in my co. to have done so before others caught on.  But the prevailing opinion was it made a good target - better on your head than mine!  If I had spent more than 10 minutes on the ground I'm sure I would have painted it out with OD!!

Howie

skypirate1 wrote:

While on the subject of M60's, i was wondering if you guys could tell me why some slicks used the ammo chutes with their M23 mounted 60s and why some used the loose belt C ration can method?? I think all the Air cav huey pictures ive seen used the ammo chute from 1966 onwards but there are loads of pictures of other units dated much later using the loose belt. Was it a shortage of, or 'supply chutes to favorite units thing'? Did they get snagged up, or have a short shelf life? or was it just a crew chiefs preference thing? Also, does anyone know the deal with the white helmets? In a few of the early pictures some of the pilots and crew had white helmets as apposed to green. Was white the standard color of helmets in the early years or was it just certain units and when did the green ones become standard? Andy.

It was a heck of alot faster to re-load when using the "C-Ration" can as apposed to running it up the chute was a prime reason alot of crewchief and gunners didn't use the.

White was an early color used on a lot of flight helmets, was replaced by OD which also wasn't as visible if you ended up hiding in the bush.

rotorwash wrote:

I found the motherload of online manuals: http://stevespages.com/page7c.htm The older M60 manual FM 23-67 is on this page along with all kinds of other interesting stuff. The manual shows a single illustration which seems to represent a cloth ammo magazine attached to the gun: [img]http:// There is no mention of a metal magazine, but now, at least I know that the metal plate on the M60 I posted above is a belt guide.  Here is the gun without ammo: [img]http:// And here with the belt in place: [img]http:// Was this plate the part that was replaced in Vietnam with C-ration cans?  Ray

Ray, I would personally doubt that the flat metal plate you are reffering to is a "belt guide".

The plate has a few detents and such that imply it is actually used to clip something onto the side of the weapon.  Just like the magazine that I'm familiar with, the original feed belt flows over the top of whatever clips on that bracket... I'm suspecting a newer style mag.

The question was asked "How did the ration cans get placed on the M60?", as far as I know the answer is they were held between the magazine clips on the LH side of the weapon, the photo I posted supports this. 

I'm not surprised that aircraft crew would have never seen a magazine for an M60, why would they ever need a small can that only holds 40 rounds?  And although we almost never used the magazines themselves, I can assure you that every M60 I ever handled between 1979 & 1995 had the magazine clips and the mag was part of the CES for the weapon.

Of course it could be that the areas I'm talking about are unique to the Australian version of the M60 although I would doubt that we would have tooled up just to create such a small modification to the weapon.

From this website: http://www.warsenal.com/mgUSA.html

The Australians introduced into the tactical use of the M60 two practices, based on experience in jungle, the first reaction firefight takes place with only a few rounds being fired off while the soldiers take cover. Australian gunners used to fit a short belt of only about 15 or 20 rounds on the gun, which was enough for the first firing. A full belt was fitted after going to ground. They also designed and manufactured a 'ready reaction magazine' of 28-40 rounds, enough for the initial exchange of fire, which fitted on to the belt carrier attachment of the M60 and fed into the ammunition feed tray. After taking cover, a full belt was loaded. The ready reaction magazine stuck out of the side of the gun 'a bit like on the old Sten Gun' as it was described by an Australian veteran of the Vietnam War.

So I can only talk about the weapons I handled... but I was sure they were no different to the USA based ones.

While on the subject of M60's, i was wondering if you guys could tell me why some slicks used the ammo chutes with their M23 mounted 60s and why some used the loose belt C ration can method?? I think all the Air cav huey pictures ive seen used the ammo chute from 1966 onwards but there are loads of pictures of other units dated much later using the loose belt.

Was it a shortage of, or 'supply chutes to favorite units thing'? Did they get snagged up, or have a short shelf life? or was it just a crew chiefs preference thing?

Also, does anyone know the deal with the white helmets? In a few of the early pictures some of the pilots and crew had white helmets as apposed to green. Was white the standard color of helmets in the early years or was it just certain units and when did the green ones become standard?

Andy.

Ray,

Sorry for the quality of this picture, but i just grabbed it off some footage, was wondering if it could be the cloth ammo bag you mentioned.

Andy

I found the motherload of online manuals:

http://stevespages.com/page7c.htm

The older M60 manual FM 23-67 is on this page along with all kinds of other interesting stuff.

The manual shows a single illustration which seems to represent a cloth ammo magazine attached to the gun:

[img]http://

There is no mention of a metal magazine, but now, at least I know that the metal plate on the M60 I posted above is a belt guide.  Here is the gun without ammo:

[img]http://

And here with the belt in place:

[img]http://

Was this plate the part that was replaced in Vietnam with C-ration cans? 

Ray 

Here's a link to the newer training manual for the M60 FM 3-22.68 Chapter 2:

https://atiam.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/public/6713-1/fm/3-22.68/chap2.htm#1

Of course it doesn't mention a magazine, I'll need FM 23-67 from 1964 to have a chance of finding that info, but at least anyone interested in M60's will have a FREE link to the manual ( other sites charge $1-$3 for a PDF copy).  Anyway, I thought some of you might be interested.

    Ray
 

I thought i had it cracked for a second there, i remembered a picture in one of my books of a Navy Seal crouched behind a bush with what looked like an M60 with magazine. But after some investigation it turns out to be a Stoner M63A. Anyway incase it helps heres a picture of the 100 round feed box.

Andy

Grandad,

  The document referred to in the following entry from the Defense Technical Information Center is from 1961, but it makes clear that there was at least a 100 round canvas magazine at some point in the M60's history.  I'll keep looking for photographic evidence, though.

    Ray

Accession Number : AD0259416

Title :   EVALUATION OF MODIFIED FEED SYSTEM FOR GUN, MACHINE, 7.62MM, M60

Corporate Author : ARMY ARCTIC TEST CENTER FORT GREELY ALASKA

Report Date : 10 JUL 1961

Pagination or Media Count : 1

Abstract : The M60 Machine Gun was equipped with the test item, with 100 rounds of ammunition in a T-7 bandoleer attached, weighed 1.2 lbs. less than an M60 Machine Gun equipped with the current mounting bracket and canvas magazine filled with 100 rounds of ammunition. Approximately 12,000 rounds were fired from each of four M60 machine guns equipped with modified feed systems. The ammunition was fed from various containers that were not attached to the gun. No interference from the hook on the modified systems was noted. No difference in the ease of attachment of a loaded T-7 bandoleer to the hooks was observed. The Type A Modified Feed System, when used in conjunction with a bandoleer identical to the Machine Gun Bandoleer, T-7, was superior to the mounting bracket-canvas magazine combination used on the Gun, Machine, 7.62mm, M60, and is suitable for Army use. The Type B Modified Feed System for the Gun, Machine, 7.62mm, M60, is not suitable for use with the Gun, Machine, 7.62mm, M60. The design of the Machine Gun Bandoleer, T-7, is suitable for use with the Type A Modified Feed System for the Gun, Machine, 7.62mm, M60. However, this bandoleer lacks the desired durability. (Author)

Descriptors :   *AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, *AMMUNITION FEED MECHANISMS, GUNS, LOADERS, SMALL ARMS.

Distribution Statement : APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

Andy:

I kind of wondered what happened to the 227th. Our publicity guy must have been asleep  

Like I told the 1-1 Cav guys in Iraq at my farewell ceremoney, this has been a labor of love. I have spent over 30 years working with the military and felt guilty that I wasn't working, I was having fun teaching and learning from them. If there is a place where we will meet someday, I can be recognized by the grin from ear to ear.

I met the Australians when they fought in Nam and also have a friends in England. I think most Americans feel a real bond with you all and the New Zealanders. Everyone can't join in every fight we find ourselves in, but I at least never questioned your loyalties.

I at least went to Nam because I thought that democracy was a better way of life. Not every government that claims to be a democratic one is good for the people. That is why we have communism and dictatorships. If these forms of government offer a better life for all the people and the majority are happy with it, fine.

I live in Taiwan and the people here think freedom is cutting in front of you to make a turn. To them freedom is doing what you want and when you want.

I applaud all of you for trying to bring some truth to the younger generation on what it was really like. I will be back in December and from wherever they send me next I hope I can contribute something to our young people.

Clear right

Ed

rotorwash wrote:

Andrew,   Thanks again.  Here is a pic of a M60 from the TACOM web site that shows an attached magazine I think.  I can't see how wide it is, though.  Is this a Vietnam era mod or is this a newer addition?  If I am correct about my identification, this is an M60A, right?      Ray   " border="0" />

Ray,

The pic that I can see above is the same as almost every other pic I've been able to find on the net in the last few hours.  It is different from the ones I posted above.

Your pics don't show an M60 with a magazine, but rather they show an M60 with a different magazine mounting plate to what mine show.  The mounting plate is the large flat rectangular piece with the vertical rib on the LH portion of the plate.  You can see it folds directly into the feed plate for the ammo.

I gather the difference in the new magazines compared to the old is that the magazines now have the retaining clips on them rather than the weapon.  I say this only because I can't see any way of the magazine being held firmly in place on all these "newer" pictures I'm looking at. I'm also figuring that they also can now take a larger magazine from other images I've seen... looks to be about 100 rounds.

I don't know what the model designation was for our M60s were... we just knew them as a "GPMG M60".

LOL... the subject of "The M60 ration can mod" could almost be a thread in itself now.

Andrew,

  Thanks again.  Here is a pic of a M60 from the TACOM web site that shows an attached magazine I think.  I can't see how wide it is, though.  Is this a Vietnam era mod or is this a newer addition?  If I am correct about my identification, this is an M60A, right?

     Ray
 

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rotorwash wrote:

Thanks for your service, you guys have always been great allies to the US and we appreciate it.      Ray

Australia an Ally of the USA... I was sure that the USA was an Ally of Australia!  ;)

The closest pic I can find to the magazine we used to use on our M60s bak in the early 80s is this one:

It's actually a pic of a MAG58 magazine but it is *very* close to the M60 version I'm familiar with.  It looks to be about the same size only the M60 one was a slightly different shape.  As you can imagine the magazine can stay on the weapon and the belt can still feed over the top of the mag and directly into the feedway.

Andrew,

   Thanks again.  I see what you mean about the magazine shape.  I went online after you explained it to me and did a quick search.  So far, no luck.  Thanks for your service, you guys have always been great allies to the US and we appreciate it.

     Ray