Gerald -- it's so good to see crisp, sharp modern photos of a Phantom in flight! Thankyou so much for posting them!

Rex -- Phantomology, I love it! The Norm 72 colour chip is a good idea, I'll see if I can make it up. I'm hoping to go all acrylic, and I only need to sort out a match for 36320 (I'm positive XF-22 is not one!) If I can't then the underside of a bird with the gray option would be the only bit to be done outside in stinky paint using a proper match. I'm almost out of air and need a tank change sometime soon, so it'll probably be the other side of that before I can post it.

Great discussions here, and thanks to Berny again for invaluable input. I'm sure we'll all be refering back to this thread whenever we plan to hang anything under an F-4!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

Mike - If you have access to MM Acryl paints down there, you can use MM Acryl 4761 which is an exact match for FS 595a 36320.  I've used it instead of XF-22 (A bit too dark scale wise) on some of the modern USAF stuff over the past couple of years.

Thanks Smitty! I'll check, and even if we don't have that range here, as an acrylic I should be able to mailorder it from the States. Does MM need a propietory thinner? I have gallons of Tamiya thinner, any idea if that would be applicable?

M/TB379

I've used them with Tamiya's X-20A thinner and they worked just fine through both my Badger 100 and my HP-CS so you should be ok with them.

Well..  Stuff is starting to fall together over here.  Amazingly my primary MM enamels for the RAF Camo showed up today.  In addition, the new regulator/pressure gauge and moisture trap.  Oh yeh,, and I snagged a basically brand new 1/3HP 100PSI compressor with a 2 Gallon tank for $25 off of Craigslist.  I just discovered that I would need a proprietary hose for the Anthem which should be here by the end of next week, so I had to order one.  This kills off the remainder of my Xmas money and wipes out my model budget for January.  Still it should be worth it.  With my shakes, this is going to be a very slow and deliberate build.  I will only be working on it when my hands aren't having their shaky times.  It will probably take me a week just to finish up the ejection seats once the resin arrives.  I've been looking all over and am going to do the model without the nasty looking squared off stabilizer fin top.  My info says some of them didn't have it so I am going with one of those just because I think they look bad aesthetically.  I'm still not sure that the instructions color for the cockpit is correct...  It just looks lighter than the Medium Sea Grey the instructions call for (Gunze or Mr. Hobby  #335)

Smitty -- if we have the range here it'll open up a lot of new possibilities, thanks for putting me onto them!

Sparrow -- yep, coming together for you, have fun with that big FGR.2, you've sure got the hardware lined up!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

Rich, take a look at 36231 for your cockpit,,,,,umm,,Gunze 317

that's what the Fujimi British Phantoms call out for in their kits,,,same as US jets, in fact

Rex

Hmmm Same as MM Dark Gull Grey.  And in MM I can get it as an Enamel.  Thanks for the number.  Odd thing is that it has the same FS number but it looks darker than the 317 Gunze.

Hi Everyone,

I spotted this on ebay.  It is 1/48 F-4E/F/G/EJ Phantom Seamless Intakes for Hasegawa.  From the pictures it looks really nice.  I have ordered a set for the F-4E I am doing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320639796239&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123 

Ken

Thunderbolt379

That's a great link, Jimbot, and I see what you mean, they're very well-lit photos with what seems extremely natural colour balance: the green doesn't have an olive cast and the grey doesn't have a blue cast. I think these pics could be very trustworthy, and suddenly I can indeed see 34079 being the start point for that green. Hu 92 might be a good match for the grey too. I think I'd be inclined to try some acrylic mixing and see how close I could get...

That Phantom schemes site indicated that the Norm 72 scheme could feature either silver or grey for the underside, and the grey "feels" righter than silver, I'll have a very hard time applying chrome silver to a Phantom!

I think we've nearly got this Luftwaffe scheme cornered -- thanks for your research efforts!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

Thanks to TarnShip for input on that belly color. Is it just me or in those photos I posted the link to, do those pylons and lower surfaces look even lighter than the belly? Like maybe as light as MM Camo Gray?

I may have to put all this research to use....it seems there is a Hasegawa F-4F winging it's way across the country from Sprue Brothers!

F-4F

I don't know if I will include it in the GB or not, there is so much yet to do on the "G"! I am making notes of our discussions here for future reference.

Speaking of which, I had so little time to work on the "G" this last week. I continued  to work on stripping the drop tanks, landing gear doors, and all the pylons. Not to mention sanding and filling all those seams that I didn't do the first time! In the mean time, I have managed to snap off the small blade antenna from the forward landing gear door and a couple of pieces from the inboard pylons. Usually those bits don't go on until it's ready to paint, but I started with a kit already panted! It's so fun when you are my size and sometimes feel like I'm trying to do this work when all my fingers seem to be made of thick sausages! I've already started with sanding sticks and files to create a new antenna-I've had lots of practice-I broke the one on top of the fuselage 3 times already! I am a bull in a China shop!

By the way, thank you Gerold for those photos! I could almost feel those burners as it thundered down the runway and climbed into the sky!

Here is my favorite photo:

Copy and paste this link for full size photo:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2921/f4phantom.jpg

Jimbot -- I rechecked those photos from the GAF Technical School and you're right, there is something going on there. The Underside shade as seen on the sides of the gun fairing -- that's a grey with a bluish cast, it looks close to the Ghost group, but the bottom of the droptanks are very different, I'm guessing 36622. It looks like there was as much variation in the German AF as in anyone else's, and while the topside camo in the Norm 72 scheme was essentially fixed, undersides were another matter...

I went stash diving today, looking for info on another project and came across a mint, sealed Hasegawa 1:48 F-4F (P7), with Norm 72 and I think Norm 91 markings right OOB... Oh, man, I could see me bringing up a satin sheen on that baby! Nowhere to put her right now, but maybe by the time Rhinos 4 comes along...

Thanks for my new desktop wallpaper, BTW!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

Hey Med Man, I bought those myself about a 10 days ago, & am in the process of painting them.  I'll post some pic later today, hopefully before the football game starts. 

I pulled out my camera yesterday to take some in progress pictures.  I kept getting a message to insert media card in my camera.  I tried several cards and kept getting the same message.  The camera is around twelve years old so it looks like I will have to get a new one.  The wife has one that gave up the ghost last year so now both of us are without a digital camera.  I still have my old Canon 35 MM SLR which is over forty years old.  Trying to find film for it around here is next to impossible. 

Here is a very good shot of a F-4E with AIM-7's and AIM-4's loaded.  This is proof that not all carried the AIM-9's.

TarnShip

and remember that Naval outer pylons are "wet",,,,,,except for when one fails and allows Trotti's squadron to create what -314 called a "superbomber" (regs only allowed those if there was something irreparably wrong with the outer fuel system,,,,so,,,,,,,some "got broken", lol)

Rex

All outboard pylons are "Dry".  Only the 370 tanks with the built on pylon is "Wet".  You don't want to load a pylon with air/fuel standpipes connected and allow fuel to siphon from the fuel system through the pylon and overboard.

To jettison the 370's, they had to be full or empty.  With a partial fuel load they could not be jettisoned without causing damage to the wing.  The tanks were three section, forward, center and aft.  Fuel was taken from the center section and pressure would feed the forward section into the center section.  After the nose section was empty the rear section would feed into the center section.  Pressure regulators and float valves in the tank would fail and one section (nose or rear) would fail to feed.  The only option was to bring the tank home as it could not be jettisoned.  In peace time if the tank failed to feed at all, it would be brought home.  In a combat situation it would be jettisoned.

The same with the centerline tank.  Only a full or empty tank could be jettisoned.  The old 600 gal center line tank was a two section tank and the nose section would empty first.  More problems were encountered with the centerline tank than the wing tanks.  When it was time to load a centerline tank we went looking for the Sgt. Fletcher tanks and not the MDD tanks.  The Sgt. Fletcher tanks were lighter and more reliable then the MDD tanks.  Both were a PITA to upload. 

Once the Phantom started carrying the F-15 style centerline tank, things worked out much better.  The were much easier to load and worked quite well, compared to the old tanks. 
 

Ish47guy

Hey Med Man, I bought those myself about a 10 days ago, & am in the process of painting them.  I'll post some pic later today, hopefully before the football game starts. 

I look forward to seeing the pictures.  I have not received mine yet so I am curious, are they as good as they look in the pictures?

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

Ish47guy:

Hey Med Man, I bought those myself about a 10 days ago, & am in the process of painting them.  I'll post some pic later today, hopefully before the football game starts. 

 

I look forward to seeing the pictures.  I have not received mine yet so I am curious, are they as good as they look in the pictures?

Ken

If they are the same quality as their 1/32 scale, they are very good.  I have one set but will not be using them for my build as I plan on using them for another project. 

berny13

Here is a very good shot of a F-4E with AIM-7's and AIM-4's loaded.  This is proof that not all carried the AIM-9's.

Hi Berny, very nice view.  I noticed that there is another missle or something that looks like a missle with a red tip on the port side next to the M61 .  What is that?

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

berny13:

Here is a very good shot of a F-4E with AIM-7's and AIM-4's loaded.  This is proof that not all carried the AIM-9's.

 

Hi Berny, very nice view.  I noticed that there is another missle or something that looks like a missle with a red tip on the port side next to the M61 .  What is that?

Ken

That is an EROS anti collision pod used by test aircraft.  This picture is when the F-4E was testing the AIM-4 missiles.  It is an aircraft from the weapons test unit out of Eglin AFB, Fl.

I agree, very nice pic,,,,,,I have one pair of Falcon pylons from the old Minicraft release of the Hasegawa 2nd generation kit,,,,,,they're like gold and I've never decided what to put them on,,,,,,,always sort of been leaning towards putting them on the early F-4D with no nose bulge to match pics in an old Airfix Magazine (1970 or 72)

Berney, I'll make "red marks" in the captions of the appropriate books, then

Wasn't really much sense in arguing the point with you, eh?,,,,,,,,,it's not like we are going to have fluids moving around. I think of myself as a pretty good model builder, and I still can't tell if a drop tank is full or empty on any plastic model I've seen, hah

Undersides of Phantoms can easily look two different colors,,,,,,if the wingtip is unshaded, it's tempting to say they always look different than the rest of the underside,,,,,I'd try to keep that in mind when picking a color,,,,just a thought

Rex

They are pretty decent looking overall.

Installation-wise, there is a little bit of work involved.  I had to grind away the area marked with x's to get the bottom edge to fit against the fuselage:

Fuselage cut outs:

Compressor faces:

View down intake:

Ish47guy

They are pretty decent looking overall.

Installation-wise, there is a little bit of work involved.  I had to grind away the area marked with x's to get the bottom edge to fit against the fuselage:

Fuselage cut outs:

Compressor faces:

View down intake:

 

Very nice, thank you for the pictures.  It looks like it is well worth the extra work to put them on.  Good job on putting yours together!  I hope mine look as good as yours when I am done.

Ken

ish47guy -- Well! So those are "Seamless Suckers"... I was going to ask how you used them but that set of pics is as good as a tute! I'm tempted -- nothing lets down a Phantom model more readily than blank, shallow intakes, but you get used to them in a 'grin and bear it' sense, and just don't look into them. As the replacement parts are white resin, can you get away without trying to paint inside them???

Cheers, Mike/TB379

Thunderbolt379

ish47guy -- Well! So those are "Seamless Suckers"... I was going to ask how you used them but that set of pics is as good as a tute! I'm tempted -- nothing lets down a Phantom model more readily than blank, shallow intakes, but you get used to them in a 'grin and bear it' sense, and just don't look into them. As the replacement parts are white resin, can you get away without trying to paint inside them???

Cheers, Mike/TB379

From the description by the vendor they are molded with white resin to eliminate the need to paint inside them.  So from that I am assuming that they are supposed to be white on the inside.  But I am by no means an expert on Phantoms, so someone else with that knowledge would have to confirm.

Ken

As far as I know, & I've been a Phantom Phanatic for a real long time, all F-4 intakes are white.

The intake trunks are cast in white resin, BUT the splitter plates are cast in a grey resin, & you have to paint the portion of the splitter plates that form the inboard wall of the intake white anyway.

I've the intakes a coat of white paint to match the white painted portion of the splitter plate.  I only gave the splitter one coat so far, & there is a difference in shade between the plate & intake trunking.

My favorite characteristic about these intakes is that they have the proper scale length from the intake lip to the compressor faces.  Its a pet peeve of mine when modelers use those intakes that have the compressor face RIGHT THERE in the intake, like right behind the rear cockpit.  The compressor faces on the real deal start almost at the mid-point of the fuselage.

Ish,

Those intakes look well worth the price of admission. Excellent job on them!

Glenn

I've been following the dialogue on paint schemes and pylon shapes. All I can say is Wow! I don't remember reading any of this in the "Detail and Scale" books! I thought I knew a couple of things, but the more I read, the more I realize what little I know. Thanks for sharing, ya'll.

A little update; I filled in the recesses of the inboard flaps and will recreate lines later. I'm almost done with the wings and am about ready to mate it with the fuselage. I didn't realize how long it had been since I've used my tube of Green Putty until I tried to use it to reprofile the nose. It's hardened to a play-doh like consistency; practically useless.

Guess I'll go now and watch it snow. Ah, to be in Puerto Rico right now!

Glenn

well it seems like i will be finishing my Phantom in a few days probably by wednesday, working with my models is the only positive about not working at the moment.

why do manufactures insist on using such Odd colours for their plastics. like really...green? haha

for all the detail ive put into the cockpit, you really dont get to appreciate much, at least i know its there

my least favourite part about the phantom is getting the elevators to 48 degrees, and wing tips to 8

why were more phantoms just painted flat black it makes it look even more menacing, which i didnt think was possible.

also a question for anyone whos done one of these revell kits, has anyone had difficulty attaching the nose section to the rest of the fuselage? i had to cut away a large portion of the back end to get it too fit properly, and i was curious if this was a common molding issue theyve had.

Interesting technique, there, Mobius -- painting before assembly! I'm watching with interest for assembly glitches, as this is one I'll be tackling in due course too.

I guess I'd better get my butt in gear and get some badges ready -- you'll be needing one by the weekend!

Cheers, Mike/TB379