The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

Yeah Rich it is.

A bit off topic but here's a few more reinforcements to avoid the filling being squeazed out:

I don't know what the heck I did with the shots of the F4, but actually those spars and that 'slab' reline were pretty much what I had to do with the F-4F. The big slab reline for the F-4F is that brown pice of cardboard at the very bottom of the Spars shot, it got cut off, so I put it in the back section of the wing, and that lighter colour spar template went in the front. 

Kinda reminds me of wrapping an iron bar with tin foil.

Here's some real from-the-horse's-mouth discussion of Luftwaffe paints:

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/lofiversion/index.php?t157600.html

Cheers, M/TB379

Good data source here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-4_Phantom_II_non-U.S._operators

I'm currently torn between leaving those intakes gray as they appear to be in those photos and going with white which seems standard on every build I've seen by other folks... GRRR

Cheers, M/Tb379

And according to these sources, including F-4Fs being upgraded at Holloman, the intakes on German Phantoms were BOTH, because the exterior camo wrapped deep inside the intakes:

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=158727&st=0&p=1451516&#entry1451516

GRRR M/TB379

Thunderbolt- Intake covers; it's not just for FOD anymore!

Bocks- It looks like you're going to have more putty than plastic before you're done. I'm with you though...Rhinoplasty is scheduled for mine this week.

Ish- Those exhaust nozzles look really good.

Glenn

Thunderbolt379

And according to these sources, including F-4Fs being upgraded at Holloman, the intakes on German Phantoms were BOTH, because the exterior camo wrapped deep inside the intakes:

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=158727&st=0&p=1451516&#entry1451516

GRRR M/TB379

Hi Mike,

I would say you have enough photographic evidence to make them either way.  Since they were all manufactured by McDonnell Douglas and shipped to where ever, they must have started out white.  But after that, it is kinda like a used car, once you sell it, there is no law about changing the color.  Unless there was a mechanical reason that the intakes were white, who is to say?

Ken

Glenn -- now there's an idea... I have a set of PE covers here, they might just get used!

Ken -- good point, all the variations as to exactly where the demarcation line fell, anywhere from the intake lip to five feet back, seem to have been decisions of the various services, and on delivery the intakes were probably factory white.

Right, I think I'll try sticking a few bits together...

Cheers, M/TB379

The more I see those "F" Luftwaffe Phantoms, the more I want to start mine, but there are just too many irons in the fire for the moment with my "G" and the P-51D going on. Perhaps in the near future I will have TB add it as a second entry for the GB-we shall see.

As to the Phantom 'G':

The 'rescue' of this previous built kit had been a PIA for me-as in addition to the stripping of the paint, I have had to repair missing and damaged parts all over the thing.

I've got the canopy attached and opening parts have been temp. tacked in place. I still need to mask the areas that will metalized later around the tail/exhaust area.

I need a suggestion on one thing: across the spine there were several round panels that were lost in the original seam filling efforts so long ago. Any idea how I can effectively rescribe those? I have a plastic template with various size holes in it, but I can't see trying to hold it in place while scribing. It's fairly rigid and would be hard to hold against a curved surface.

Jimbot -- she's looking good, really showing for all the hard work you've put into her. She now looks like a fresh kit to the casual eye, and that's testimony to the "rhinoplasty" that's been happening!

Those circular panels are the filler ports for the fuselage fuel cells, IIRC. I'm in the same situation with my -F, I cleaned up the spine seam today and those recessed circles are gone. I can rescribe the panel lines that cross the spine, I think, but scribing circles is another matter. I can try, but if they won't play the game my solution will be to use the circle templates and simply draw them on with a finepoint marker, then seal the ink under a clear coat. The detail will be 2D instead of 3D, but from any more than 12 inches back, who can tell the difference?

Today I installed the clear part that floors the camera bay, filled and rubbed down problem areas on the centreline joint, and carved away that antenna fairing on the trailing edge of the fin. It was probably current for early RF-4Bs but neither the late -B nor the RF-4E display it in the box art, the markings guides nor research photos of the real planes or other folks' German Phantoms of either sort. I have some filler to rub down on the fin, and will try to install the cockpit shortly.

Cheers, M/TB379

Jimbot, the next time you're in one of those office superstores , take a trip down the drafting supply aisle. What I use is called an erasing shield.  Its very thin, very flexible metal with a variety of shapes on it.  

If you have any medium thickness styrene sheets,  use your circle template to and make a duplicate of it out of the sheet styrene.  It would be more flexible.

Rich

jimbot58

The more I see those "F" Luftwaffe Phantoms, the more I want to start mine, but there are just too many irons in the fire for the moment with my "G" and the P-51D going on. Perhaps in the near future I will have TB add it as a second entry for the GB-we shall see.

As to the Phantom 'G':

The 'rescue' of this previous built kit had been a PIA for me-as in addition to the stripping of the paint, I have had to repair missing and damaged parts all over the thing.

I've got the canopy attached and opening parts have been temp. tacked in place. I still need to mask the areas that will metalized later around the tail/exhaust area.

I need a suggestion on one thing: across the spine there were several round panels that were lost in the original seam filling efforts so long ago. Any idea how I can effectively rescribe those? I have a plastic template with various size holes in it, but I can't see trying to hold it in place while scribing. It's fairly rigid and would be hard to hold against a curved surface.

Ish47guy

Berny, in relation to J-79 new, how would you describe the used & old colors?  My build is a S model close to the ned of its service life, 2 years before the unit transitioned to the F-14, so I'm thinking old would be the way to go.

Not always.  The color of the AB section I posted would be New.  That is the color it would be from zero to 200 hours.  From 200 to 400 hours the green would be lighter in color.  From 400 to 600 hours the green would almost be faded away and very light gray streaks would be coming from the turbine section.  From 600 to 800 hours the green would be all gone and would be a mid gray color with darker gray/black streaks coming back from the turbine section.  At 800 to 1000 hours the color would be dark gray with lots of black staining, with black streaks coming from the turbine section.  From 1000 to 1200 hours the color would be an oily looking very dark gray with lots of black staining. 

After 600 hours the engine would go through an inspection where the case would be opened and a complete inspection performed at the local engine shop.  After inspection it would go back on the ready line to be installed in any aircrtaft needing it.  At 1200 hours the engine would be sent to DEPOT for complete rebuild and the time would revert back to zero hours.

Aircraft would not always have engines installed with the same hours on them.  There were many reasons why an engine would have to be removed and another engine installed.  Even a high time aircraft could have an engine that ranged any where from zero to 1200 hours.

Thunderbolt379

Those circular panels are the filler ports for the fuselage fuel cells, IIRC. I'm in the same situation with my -F, I cleaned up the spine seam today and those recessed circles are gone. I can rescribe the panel lines that cross the spine, I think, but scribing circles is another matter. I can try, but if they won't play the game my solution will be to use the circle templates and simply draw them on with a finepoint marker, then seal the ink under a clear coat. The detail will be 2D instead of 3D, but from any more than 12 inches back, who can tell the difference?

Cheers, M/TB379

Actually, T-Bolt, they are access panels for the fuel quantity probes. 

UGH!  You guys are killing me!  I want to get started on my Phantom, but I can't.  Don't have the time or all the necessary pieces.  Reading all these posts and watching the progress has me chomping at the bit!  GRRRRRR!

Anyway, Berny, I have a couple of general questions for you about paint jobs.   First, was the SEA camo pattern sprayed with masks or freehand?  I'm wondering if the demarcation lines between the colors would be nice and sharp, tightly feathered, loosley feathered, etc.  Second, the jet I'm building is a weapons test jet, so would the paint on these jets generally be more beat up than squadron jets? 

Thanks!

-O

I feel for ya.  I have the same issue here.  Need a couple of paint jars and an air hose for my new airbrush.  And I am having my wife pick me up a space heater so I can move all painting operations to the enclosed front porch.  She didn't like the noise from the new compressor.  LOL

Rich

oortiz10

UGH!  You guys are killing me!  I want to get started on my Phantom, but I can't.  Don't have the time or all the necessary pieces.  Reading all these posts and watching the progress has me chomping at the bit!  GRRRRRR!

Anyway, Berny, I have a couple of general questions for you about paint jobs.   First, was the SEA camo pattern sprayed with masks or freehand?  I'm wondering if the demarcation lines between the colors would be nice and sharp, tightly feathered, loosley feathered, etc.  Second, the jet I'm building is a weapons test jet, so would the paint on these jets generally be more beat up than squadron jets? 

Thanks!

-O

 

Lucky for me Rich, noise from my compressor isn't an issue.  I do all my airbrushing in the garage.  The great thing is I'm in sunny SoCal.  It's been pushing 80 the past few days!

-O

Right now it's a nice toasty 23F and it's probably going to snow later.  It's amazing.  We can put satellites in orbit, build a CPU with circuits so small you almost need an electron microscope to see them, and yet, we cannot build a totally silent air compressor....

oortiz10

Lucky for me Rich, noise from my compressor isn't an issue.  I do all my airbrushing in the garage.  The great thing is I'm in sunny SoCal.  It's been pushing 80 the past few days!

-O

 

 

oortiz10

Anyway, Berny, I have a couple of general questions for you about paint jobs.   First, was the SEA camo pattern sprayed with masks or freehand?  I'm wondering if the demarcation lines between the colors would be nice and sharp, tightly feathered, loosley feathered, etc.  Second, the jet I'm building is a weapons test jet, so would the paint on these jets generally be more beat up than squadron jets? 

Thanks!

-O 

They were sprayed free hand.  The seperation would be soft, tightly feathered.  Test squadrons took very good care of their jets so it would be very clean and non weathered.  Most state side units also took care to keep their jets looking new.  A combat unit did not have time to pull a jet from the line up for ten days or more to paint them.  They would send them across the wash rack every five or six weeks but generally after they got 3,4, or 500 hours on them, they started to show lots of wear. 

Berny -- thanks for the clarrification on those ports on the spine, I knew they had something to do with the fuel system! Re the SEA paint scheme, I figured it was freehand because through the pattern is standardised it varies just a bit from plane to plane, as if being done by hand and eye. The feather on the edges was pretty darn tight and I find myself having to squint to even see it in many photos. That leads me to think that in 1:72nd scale one might as well hard-mask, and leave soft-masking for 1:48, and freehand for 1:32... What's your take on that, given the issue of the relative "viewing distance" of scale?

Cheers, Mike/TB379

Finally started my RoG 1/72 F-4F.  Kind of weird building a dual colored plastic kit'.  Have the fuselage halves together with the compressor faces painted and installed, so no blanked off intakes!  Also glued the main wing section, lower first, then the wing tops.  Fit is great. especially the wing roots (no filler required).  Still need to clean up the center seam.   

   Question I have is how do you post pictures?

My Hasegawa Blue Angel F-4J will be a bit of a wait though.  Need seamless intakes, and I am broke at the moment.

The Mike-To post a picture, you need to use an outside hosting site. I use Imageshack.us but there are plenty of others that will work. Once you upload and get your link, look to the tool bar along the top of the posting window and you will see an icon that looks like a strip of film with a small green 'plus' in the corner. Click it, paste your link there (use the direct link) and click 'insert' media. Bingo! You have a picture!

I think I have figured out a way with those round ports on top. I had this sheet of brass (measures as .0005") that I carefully drilled a hole in by hand while holding it against a block of balsa wood. Once drilled, I cleaned up the edges with some sandpaper to prevent scratches, cut it into a strip, and bent it around a marker to give it an appropriate "Rhino" shape. I tested it on my 'mule' and with a sewing needle clamped in my pin vise, made several perfect scribed circles. I will need to carefully mark a center line with a pencil when I do this to the Rhino. I'm lucky to have three other Hasegawa kits to use as a guide as to the placement of those ports.

Jimbot -- that sounds excellent, I must give it a shot! I can always fall back on the marker pen idea if I can't get it to work, but it sounds terrific!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

Thunderbolt379

Berny -- Re the SEA paint scheme, I figured it was freehand because through the pattern is standardised it varies just a bit from plane to plane, as if being done by hand and eye. The feather on the edges was pretty darn tight and I find myself having to squint to even see it in many photos. That leads me to think that in 1:72nd scale one might as well hard-mask, and leave soft-masking for 1:48, and freehand for 1:32... What's your take on that, given the issue of the relative "viewing distance" of scale?

Cheers, Mike/TB379

That would be the best way to go with it. 

mississippivol

Thunderbolt- Intake covers; it's not just for FOD anymore!

Bocks- It looks like you're going to have more putty than plastic before you're done. I'm with you though...Rhinoplasty is scheduled for mine this week.

Ish- Those exhaust nozzles look really good.

Glenn

Glenn:

I woulda' put thin styrene as an outside reline, but the plastic is so thin there's no way I could do that without a solvent-melt issue. Very thin layers of Squadron putty, built up over decades in the Chinese lacquer tradition was the answer! going for a lung X-Ray.

Those hi-detail burner cans and resin intakes the guys are usin' has me feelin' alot of engine envy right about now.

Lookin' forward to seein' how the schnoz looks after you remove the bandages. 

Hi Everyone,

I am so envious of everyone getting a lot done on their Phantoms.  I just got home after a long day at work to find no Phantom waiting for me again.  Bummer!  It is funny though, the paint I ordered did show up.  That is one thing I have to hand it to Sprue Brothers, they get your order out the door fast!  Maybe the Phantom will show up tomorrow?

Ken

Ken,

Here's to it coming tomorrow! I've been building up kits/decals over the last couple of years. This GB is giving me the motivation to finish a couple.

Glenn

Bocks,

Here's some more Rhinoplasty; just to let you know that you ain't alone! Curious that both our Rhinos have "Revell" as a manufacturer.Nothing but putty, superglue, and lots of plastic shims to plug the gaps. Those AM exhaust doodads look really good, but there's no way I'm putting that investment into this bird. I think that if I drill out the holes for them, the whole backend will collapse.

Glenn

mississippivol

Ken,

Here's to it coming tomorrow! I've been building up kits/decals over the last couple of years. This GB is giving me the motivation to finish a couple.

Glenn

Thanks Glenn.  I know what you mean about this Group Build.  I secretly have 4 Phantoms I would like to get done altogether for it.  I just want to get the first one done before I mention the rest.  Kind of the mentality of just focus on the one at hand, then start thinking about the next one.

Ken

"I just want to get the first one done before I mention the rest.  Kind of the mentality of just focus on the one at hand, then start thinking about the next one.

Ken"

I totally agree. I got a Hasegawa "E" for Christmas, and I'm dyin' to get at it. If I ever touch it, this Revell putty monster will never get done.

Glenn