The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

berny13

I used Rust-Oleum automobile primer, the gray color.  I have used it for years and have never had a problem.  For the FS36231 gray I used Gunze Sangyo #317.  It was airbrushed on.  I bought that bottle in P-Cola because Hobby Lobby was out of the brand I normally buy.  For flat black I used Pactra Acrylic which was hand brushed.  The problem is both the flat black and flat gray is drying a mixture of flat in some areas, semi gloss in some areas, and gloss in other areas.  The gloss and semi gloss part will curl up and flake off.  The flat areas I am having no problem with.  I painted the black over the FS36231 gray and even in the good areas the black reacted the same as the gray.

Hi Berny,

I am by no means an expert but I do remember that my Dad and I always made sure to cover any original paint that was lacquer with a sealing primer.  That Rust-Oleum is lacquer based but they do claim that it will work under MOST automotive paint.  And I have read that it is safe to paint enamel over lacquer, just not the other way around.  But I can remember if there was a spot where we sanded through to the lacquer finish under the primer we would get that nasty crystalized paint interaction.  We always used enamel as our top color coat.  Since you were using a new paint that you had not used before, I would have to say the new paint had some type of chemical in it that interacted with the lacquer primer.  If you wanted to be sure, try putting some of that primer on something that you were going to through away anyway and test that new paint.  If it happens again, that would be the answer.  Of course to be really sure, paint something else with the same primer and use some paint that you normally use.  If it doesn't have a reaction, then that would be pretty conclusive.

By the way, that is a nice job you did on the instrument panels, the SUU-23/A gun pod and intake covers. 

Ken

I think I found the problem with the paint not sticking.  The resin is leaching some type of oily residue,  Even the primer won't stick to those areas.  I am presoaking the resin again and will attempt re priming again after a good cleaning.  Wish me luck. 

I damaged one part, the right front side panel but I should be able to fix it or at least hide the damage with the front instrument panel.

berny13

I think I found the problem with the paint not sticking.  The resin is leaching some type of oily residue,  Even the primer won't stick to those areas.  I am presoaking the resin again and will attempt re priming again after a good cleaning.  Wish me luck. 

I damaged one part, the right front side panel but I should be able to fix it or at least hide the damage with the front instrument panel.

Hi Berny,

I know that has to be frustrating having to do a job over.  I do wish you luck!  At least you did find the problem.

My new replacement cockpit showed up on Wednesday.  Now I am waiting for the gloss Xtracolor enamel to show up on Monday.  I am hoping that book "The Modern Phantom Guide" will show up tomorrow.  Hopefully it will have some of the cockpit detail that I could not find elsewhere.

Ken

If it's oily, try using Dawn Dish Detergent.  It will break down most oils.  Just let it soak in it for a few hours, then rinse and dry it thoroughly.  I had a similar issue with a kit I bought once from a fire sale.  It has some kind of oily glob all over the parts.  Dawn took care of it quickly.

Rich

berny13

I think I found the problem with the paint not sticking.  The resin is leaching some type of oily residue,  Even the primer won't stick to those areas.  I am presoaking the resin again and will attempt re priming again after a good cleaning.  Wish me luck. 

I damaged one part, the right front side panel but I should be able to fix it or at least hide the damage with the front instrument panel.

Hey Bernie,

Hope the new paint works well this time around. Just make sure the pit had all the residue off it. Good luck with it.

I have been plugging away on my kit and should soon have some pics worthy of progress to show soon.

Steve

berny13

Here are a few shots on the Smokers. 

 

Berny that's great looking detail, right down to the actuator flanges on the tail feathers.

I saw the Eduard Brassin equivalents at Sprue Bros, but they want $50 + shipping, and the Airies set is sold out. I like the overlap you mentioned, not sure Eduard has done the same.

Sparrowhyperion

If it's oily, try using Dawn Dish Detergent.  It will break down most oils.  Just let it soak in it for a few hours, then rinse and dry it thoroughly.  I had a similar issue with a kit I bought once from a fire sale.  It has some kind of oily glob all over the parts.  Dawn took care of it quickly.

Rich

 

That is the procedure I use.  I soak over night with Dawn and warm water, rinse and wash again with Dawn and a tooth brush.  Rinse and then soak with Dawn and vinegar for an hour or so.  Rinse again and let air dry before painting.  This time I used alcohol and wiped down the parts and let air dry.  This morning I checked the parts and still have leaching oily residue.  It is mostly the rear cockpit floor and right rear side wall.  A small area on the front cockpit left console and rear bulkhead.  When you hold them just at the right angle with light shining on them you can see the oil residue.  I don't know what else to soak them in to remove the oil.  I supect the resin wasn't properly mixed when pored and that is where the oil or what ever it is, is coming from.

Hi Everyone!

I just received the book "The Modern Phantom Guide:  The F-4 Phantom Exposed" and I am very excited!  There are 227 pages of COLOR photographs.  From a brief 10 minute scan it appears to have everything I need to reproduce each U.S. Air Force model of the F-4 Phantom.  Very close detail photographs with descriptions.  Very nice cockpit photos showing all angles for each model.   It is worth every penny.  I highly recommend this book to anyone wanting to reproduce a U.S. Air Force F-4.  From what I have read else where, there is a future edition planned for the U.S. Navy and Marine versions.

Ken

Okay.  I have a bit of progress on the FGR2 cockpit so I thought I would send up a couple of images.

I spotted a couple of things after taking these which have been corrected.  Some of the PE had popped up off of the console.  I had to open a new bottle of CA.  I guess the old stuff had been sitting around too long.  I'll send up some more when I finish the seats and get them installed.

Sparrow: good lookin' office!

Glenn

Thanks.  I am dying to see how it comes out when I finish the new MB Mk7 seats.  They are the Aries set, and are really detailed.  I am recruiting my Daughter to help with some of the stuff that's too small for shaky hands with big fat fingers.

Rich

mississippivol

Sparrow: good lookin' office!

Glenn

Nice job on your cockpit Rich!  Looking good so far.

My gloss enamel should show up tomorrow so that I can resume work on my cockpit.  I am going to paint the insulating blanket that lines the bottom of the front cockpit with gloss olive drab, let that dry for two days, then I will apply an acrylic sludge wash to bring out the details and give the cockpit some depth.  I am going to practice on my first cockpit that got the paint ruined by the Zap Kicker fiasco.  If I feel comfortable with how that turns out I will repeat the same process on the new cockpit.  With that new book that arrived yesterday, I will have an excellent color guide.

Ken

Very nice looking cockpit Rich.  Excellent work. 

The sludge wash sounds like a great idea.  Maybe I'll try it on one of my Revell F4s.  I can hardly wait to see how yours comes out.  And thanks for the compliment.

Son Of Medicine Man

Nice job on your cockpit Rich!  Looking good so far.

My gloss enamel should show up tomorrow so that I can resume work on my cockpit.  I am going to paint the insulating blanket that lines the bottom of the front cockpit with gloss olive drab, let that dry for two days, then I will apply an acrylic sludge wash to bring out the details and give the cockpit some depth.  I am going to practice on my first cockpit that got the paint ruined by the Zap Kicker fiasco.  If I feel comfortable with how that turns out I will repeat the same process on the new cockpit.  With that new book that arrived yesterday, I will have an excellent color guide.

Ken

Thanks Berny!  From you, that compliment makes me feel a lot more confident on this build.  One of my major issues is I can't work on it much on my bad days, when my hands are really shaky.  That and having to have my Daughter help with stuff like folding and working with all of the PE straps and such from the AM Seats.  The combo makes for a very slow build.

How's your TF102 going?  I am doing one of my F102s for the Wild Wings build.  All I need to do is find someplace that doesn't gouge for blank inkjet decal sheets.  I'd love to see some WIP images of yours since I have never done this kit before.

Have a good weekend.

Rich

berny13

Very nice looking cockpit Rich.  Excellent work. 

Sparrowhyperion

How's your TF102 going?  I am doing one of my F102s for the Wild Wings build.  All I need to do is find someplace that doesn't gouge for blank inkjet decal sheets.  I'd love to see some WIP images of yours since I have never done this kit before.

 

Rich

The TF is on the back burner for now.  Still trying to work out problems with the Phantom build.  The major problem with the F-102 kit is where the upper and lower wing join up, there is a large gap just aft of the leading edge.  It is best to fill with evergreen card stock because the gap is so large it will take a lot of putty to fill.  If you build with weapons bay closed you will have to putty around the doors.  The main gear doors are a PITA to install and takes some time to get positioned correctly. 

I have a trick you could try to get rid of the gap.  for really large gaps, I sometimes use silly putty to fill the majority of it, then I just putty near the surface to provide a good spot to sand it smooth.  It's a bit easier than card stock and works great.

I have 2 of the F102 Revell kits.  One is the newer Blue Box kits and the other is the older White and yellow Monogram box.  I am wondering if one is a bit less gappy than the other.

Well, I'm off to find a kit to blow my eBay bucks on.  I love eBay bucks.  basically it gives me a free kit every three months.  This time it is going to be either a 1/32 Dragon P51D, A Dragon 1/48 Horton Ho229, a Trumpeter 1/32 Corsair or a nice fat 1/32 F16..  We had to replace a bunch of computer parts a couple of months back so we accumulated a LOT of eBay bucks this quarter. lol

Rich

berny13

 

Sparrowhyperion:

 

How's your TF102 going?  I am doing one of my F102s for the Wild Wings build.  All I need to do is find someplace that doesn't gouge for blank inkjet decal sheets.  I'd love to see some WIP images of yours since I have never done this kit before.

 

Rich

 

 

The TF is on the back burner for now.  Still trying to work out problems with the Phantom build.  The major problem with the F-102 kit is where the upper and lower wing join up, there is a large gap just aft of the leading edge.  It is best to fill with evergreen card stock because the gap is so large it will take a lot of putty to fill.  If you build with weapons bay closed you will have to putty around the doors.  The main gear doors are a PITA to install and takes some time to get positioned correctly. 

OK Phantom fans,

I have made a little more progress.  (Little being the operative word.)  School, work, and an internship make for slow progress, but hey, I'm still moving forward.

I've scribed and riveted the tail.  I started by back-filling the space behind the fairing with some white Miliput.  Since I'd be removing the fairing, I wanted to avoid sanding through the plastic and ending up with a hole.  Once that was dry, I got out my Dremel and sanding sticks and made short work of the fairing.  I then scribed and riveted the tail.

(In this second pic you can see where I sanded through the plastic.  The Miliput trick worked like a charm.)

These pix are taken before some Tenax has been run through the lines to smooth things out.  The detail's highlighted with a a simple watercolor wash, just to see how things have progressed.

Keep up the great work everyone!  Feel free to drop you two cents in the bucket.  Thanks for lookin'!

-O

Hello gang!

Lots of great work going on here! I've been busy with one thing or another and found it hard to work on the kits and get back on here with an update.

Most of my efforts have been on the "G" for now: I finally managed to gloss it with Testors Gloss coat.

I wanted to use Future but at this stage I was afraid of trying something I was not totally familiar with yet. I also did some of the pin washes you might be able to just make out. I use an acrylic paint (you can see the tube in the back ground) thinned with water and a tiny dab of dish soap, brush it on and let it dry until the water has just evaporated, leaving the paint not quite set yet, then wipe with a paper towel across the lines. If it sets too much, a Q-tip moistened with Windex (with ammonia) cleans it off. I also polish the finish before hand with some high-tech Colgate toothpaste!

I did the bottom here and it actually looks better than this picture shows.

Some of the residue is left behind to "dirty" it up a bit in places and to darken those various vents and recesses. I'm going to paint the wheel wells before moving on to the decals. I need to do more of this on the upper fuselage but I ran out of paper towel. I'm just now trying to do it this way and I am actually pleased with the results. I never really was very good with over all washes or pre-shading and I don't want it to look over-done. I'll try a but more weathering later.

Also have been cleaning up the drop tanks as they have some mis-matched lines where the two halves join together (Wait! Is this an Italeri kit or something?) I hate trying to scribe on things this small! Also working on the bay doors and landing gear, cleaning up and painting.

The "F" has just been sitting there as I kind of concentrated on the 'Geasel' for the time being. It seems so lonely.....

Hey "O", very nice work on the scribing and riveting!  Could you give some details on how you did that?  It looks very detailed!

Jim, that is a very impressive job on the "wash".  Looks like you hit the right combo of tools and substances to get a very nice effect.

I have been spending time looking through that new book I got.  It is definitely going to be a big help when I start painting and detailing.

Ken

Ken;

I'm glad the book got there! I'm thinking it might make a nice addition, I'm going to look it up.

Yes "O", I agree with Ken, by the way, a contingency from Trumpeter has been dispatched to find you.

Jim that's interesting you hesitated on using the Future, some have said it doesn't always flatten out perfectly. By the way, cool stand. (speaking of lonely, what about that little Mustang!)

So I have been picking silicone mold detail out of the static face turbine blades of this J-79 resin piece. Iscratched away what I thought was a previously torn detail (i.e. if you rip a chunk out of a mold and recast another piece the ripped part is now filled in with resin), and spryz, more silicone! It was torn but didn't rear away until my part was cast. What a lucky guy.

That's my scribing tool pointing to the new found nugget, the other bits are the first chunks I pulled out.

Oh yeah, Ken those resin bits only took 4 weeks or so to arrive.

Anyhow the resin nose is over 4mm wider than my rhino's nose, so the plasty continues. I'm going to take Berny's suggestion and use Evergreen card rather than putty. Besides, after all of that putty, my lungs kind of miss inhaling fine styrene dust.

Looks like a another productive weekend overall.

Been following this thread for awhile and have been admiring the great work....well it's time for me to join!  I just picked up an old 1/48 Monogram F-4J off ebay that I would like to enter into this build.  Extra details and markings are yet to be determined.  I also plan to use this as a platform for my first scribing job

Son Of Medicine Man

Hey "O"...Could you give some details on how you did that?....

Hey Ken,

Here are a couple of pix of my tools.

First, the stuff I use to scribe the panel lines:

I use Dymo tape and one of my three scribers for the lines.  The little yellow handled one came with a Hasegawa (I think) scribing template set.  Another of my scribers is just a sharpened sewing needle held in a pin vise.  The third is a home-made job; a sharpened dental tool.  I use +/-10 different scribing templates with various shapes and such.  The compass helps with determining measurements and drawing parallel lines.  I run a little Tenax in each line after sanding to smooth out any rough spots.

Here are the things I use to make the rivets:

The tape, compass and calipers help with measuring and keeping parallel lines equidistant.  Then I have three pounce wheels of differening sizes, and a riveting tool with four different sized wheels.  Lastly, I have what's basically a glorified awl with two different tips, and some straight edged and circular riveting templates.

Here's a quick run-down of how I do things.

For scribing panel lines, I use Dymo tape for straight lines, or I'll use a template when I have to...

When doing rivets, I use tape or the compass to draw straight lines...

Then using the selected tool, I follow the line laying rivets...

When doing a curved line, I draw out the line first then slowly follow the curve with my tool.  The great thing about drawing the rivet line before using the tool is you have a visual reference that helps keep things on track.

Here's a look at how my demo turned out.  You can see that my middle line is a little crooked...

Anyway Ken, I hope this gives you an idea of how I do things.  This is the first time I've riveted a model, so I'm sure my technique isn't the "best" one out there.  (This is really a trial-and-error effort for me; a great learning process.)  So far it seems to be working, so I'm gonna keep on keepin' on.  Let me know if there are any more questions I can answer for ya.

Thanks for looking!

-O

Hi Dominic!

Yes, I highly recommend that book.  You will not be disappointed!  By the way, your static face turbine blades look very nice.  That is too bad about that piece coming out on your part.  Are you going to send it back or ask for a replacement?

Ken 

Hi "O",

Thank you for explaining your process.  I will have to give it a try.  I have a Hasegawa 1/48 F-4C that has raised panel lines so I might try it out on that.  I also have (4) Revell 1/48 F-101B kits that have raised panel lines.  I bought 4 kits for the express purpose of having a couple to practice on.  (You can probably guess from my avatar that the Voodoo is one of my favorites!)  Obviously the way you are doing it works very well.

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

Obviously the way you are doing it works very well.

Thanks Ken, but there's a lot of plastic left for me to screw up. 

Ya know, I have two family Voodoos (F- & RF-) in my stash that I'd like to get to evertually.  If you don't mind, maybe I can pick your brain when it comes time to tackle those?

Cheers!

-O

Hi "O",

I would be more than happy to help you with the F-101.  Unfortunately my Dad would have been the person to answer questions, but he passed away a year ago.  But I have spent a lot of time researching the F-101.  I would not consider myself an expert but I would be happy to answer questions that I do have the answer to.  I also have a few pictures that my Dad took while he was TDY in Vietnam of the RF-101C.  It was early in the U.S. build up, between August through November of 1964, so the camouflage was not being used yet.  I am going to use them to build mine when my skills are better.

Ken

redraider56

Been following this thread for awhile and have been admiring the great work....well it's time for me to join!  I just picked up an old 1/48 Monogram F-4J off ebay that I would like to enter into this build.  Extra details and markings are yet to be determined.  I also plan to use this as a platform for my first scribing job

Hey Redraider, Mike is a really uptight guy, not sure he appreciates the tardy!!! lol

You've come to the right place, this is where "Scratch Happens!"

Looking forward to your build.

"O", FSM might send you some dough for an article.

Son Of Medicine Man

Hi Dominic!

Yes, I highly recommend that book.  You will not be disappointed!  By the way, your static face turbine blades look very nice.  That is too bad about that piece coming out on your part.  Are you going to send it back or ask for a replacement?

Ken 

Hey Ken, a guy who spends 10s of hours resuscitating a dead Flugel would consider it well below his honour to return a mildly defective resin part (another 4-5 weeks waiting Ken....). Besides, in continuing with my "blame it all on Berny theme" of late, I've decided to take his leadership yet again, and source the Aires smoker set he bought. Hey, if worst comes to worst, I'll have and extra set of J-79 faces.

Those static face turbine blades are by Rhino, so how authentic can you get? Actually, they will look great once they are cleaned up. I hope the originals are cast metal, that mold needs replacing.

Ken what page did you post your book source, is that the one I saw way, way, back with the KC's view on the cover?