The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

these decals seemed way too thick to sink into the panel lines so i ripped them off and masked them

O, not a problem at all,,,,,,,I've sort of been rationing my typing lately,,,,,,my Tingers are killing me

one benefit of you having that thread on ARC,,,,,,if you go the linked thread and scroll down,,,,,you'll see that USN outer pylon pic with weapons adapter,,,,,,,,,,,compare that to your pic of an outer pylon,,,,,,,,it's very obvious that you have a USAF outer style then,,,,,,,,,,the angle I was talking about with the USN is very evident in that guy's photo

looking at responses,,,,,,it's also very evident that notes that have been made for model building have been done in a sort of,,,,,,,,"It's a B, it has these things", "it's a C, it has these",,,,,,,,,,not just Phantoms, it's all over everything except a few "special interest" aircraft pets,,,,,,,,,,,apparently, nothing evolved in service,,,,,it all just "sprang up" at once,,,,,,,the answers after the first few show that to you,,,,,,,,just answers that say,,,,,,,,USN was this, USAF was that, without considering that you might have USN on the inners, and USAF on the outers

the talk about the "MER forward, MER to the rear" should help you,,,,,,,,just tack some parts together with temp glue and park your aircraft at the same angle as the pic,,,,,,,and see if your belly gunpods line up the same to your eye

O, since you seem to be the one "building because of pylons", lol

those "pylon sway braces" that get mentioned a lot,,,,right at the top of the pylon to wing joint?

well, those aren't sway braces,,,,,,I forget the real name but they are "pylon separation airfoils", not part of the wing at all,,,,,,,,the "curve" goes down, not up,,,,,,,they are there mounted on the pylon to help the pylon separate from the aircraft when they are jettisoned (sorry, got talking about two different things there,,,,,they are sway braces on the outer pylons, and airfoil shaped on the inners)

we just recently had a discussion on MM about those, some posted some pics, etc,,,,,,and Hasegawa has you mount them upside down in their 1/72 kit's instructions,,,,,,in real life they didn't actually touch the wing bottom, there was a gap that would be paper thin in 1/72,,,,,and Monogram's kits have them molded on the wing (not a bad thing, I think they were the first to mold them at all)

so, they were on with the curve down, not up,,,,,to generate "downward lift" during pylon sep ,,,,,,,,,in other words "lift AWAY from the wing, not towards it"

hth

Rex

edit to add:I hope this photo shows what I mean well enough,,,,,if it shows up the same as on Photobucket, you can see the slight shadow caused by the gap

edit again:,,,,,,it shows if you enlarge it

Rex

oortiz10

As some of you have come to realize, I know jack about the F-4.  So, here I am with more questions...

OK, I know that the Navy style inboard pylons needed an adapter when using a TER.  I also know that the pylons were painted to match the color of the aircraft's underside (in my case, gray, FS 36622).  So, were the adapters painted to match the pylon (36622), or the TER (white)?  I'm assuming the TERs were white; could someone confirm that?

Next question:  Since use of the TERs on Navy style inboard pylons required an adapter, did the Navy style outboard pylons also require the same adapter when loaded with TERs?

Thanks in advance!

-O

 

The pylons were painted to match the underside color.  The shoe or weapons adapter was also painted to match the color of the pylon.  The Navy style inboard pylons were actually a "Zero Launch" launcher for the AIM-7 missile so the weapons adapter had to be installed to carry anything on the pylon.  MER's and TER's were painted gloss white regardless of the pylon color. 

It would be safe to say the inboard pylon would be FS36622 but not so much for the outboard pylon.  The military was slow in painting external equipment not carried on a daily basis.  The outboard could be gray or white.

The aircraft in the picture has the Navy style outboard pylon installed because I can see the adapter, but I know where to look for it.  The pylon also had to have an adapter installed to carry a load of any type.   

TarnShip

looking at responses,,,,,,it's also very evident that notes that have been made for model building have been done in a sort of,,,,,,,,"It's a B, it has these things", "it's a C, it has these",,,,,,,,,,not just Phantoms, it's all over everything except a few "special interest" aircraft pets,,,,,,,,,,,apparently, nothing evolved in service,,,,,it all just "sprang up" at once,,,,,,,the answers after the first few show that to you,,,,,,,,just answers that say,,,,,,,,USN was this, USAF was that, without considering that you might have USN on the inners, and USAF on the outers

the talk about the "MER forward, MER to the rear" should help you,,,,,,,,just tack some parts together with temp glue and park your aircraft at the same angle as the pic,,,,,,,and see if your belly gunpods line up the same to your eye

Nothing loaded on any aircraft is absolute.  I could say that a type of ordinance wasn't carried by the Phantom and someone will come up with a picture to prove me wrong.  I saw a F-4J at China Lake loaded with USAF style inboard pylons because of a special test they were doing.  Does that mean they were considering going to that type of pylon?  Test outfits from all branches of the service loaded things not seen on front line service aircraft.  When I was stationed at Eglin AFB, I saw a F-4E from the weapons test outfit taxi past with five SUU-23 gun pods loaded.  All five stations had a gun pod loaded which meant it was flying with six guns.  That was not your every day normal load. 

The USAF started doing away with the Navy style pylons in the mid 60's but to say after a certain date no Navy style pylons were carried would be wrong.  The USAF preferred the newer style pylons because they could carry more weight.  The Navy preferred the older style because the were lighter and more streamline.  Who is to say which branch made the best choice.  The Navy style pylons were carried by the RF-4C because a bomb rack equiped pylon wasn't needed.  The only thing carried by the RF was an ECM pod, travel pod or other equipment used by the RF. 

The Navy was offered a version of the F-4E which they turned down because they felt the F-4's they had in service at the time would meet all of their needs.  By the time they realized they needed a gun equiped F-4 they were well into the development of the F-14.  They were afraid that by ordering a Navy version of the F-4E it would jeopordize the F-14 project. 

sorry if my sarcasm seemed to point at you Bernie

I meant the answers in the other thread,,,,,,it is very hard to type sarcasm without the tone of voice to help carry it over,,,,,,,,,,,but, don't you ever get the feeling when you read that "everything just sprang up at once" when you read some responses?

that "six pack of 20mm to go" sure would have gotten it's 15 minutes of fame,,,,,,,,for just about 15 minutes per flight, lol,,,,,,,,a model of it would go right along with O's though, wouldn't it?

just wanted to make sure I hadn't insulted you,,,,,hence this quick message

Rex

Bockscar, did you get the AM radome yet?  Is it solid resin or hollow on the inside?  I am building my Revell F-4E with the radome open and the radar package extended so I would need a hollow radome for my project. 

TarnShip

sorry if my sarcasm seemed to point at you Bernie

I meant the answers in the other thread,,,,,,it is very hard to type sarcasm without the tone of voice to help carry it over,,,,,,,,,,,but, don't you ever get the feeling when you read that "everything just sprang up at once" when you read some responses?

that "six pack of 20mm to go" sure would have gotten it's 15 minutes of fame,,,,,,,,for just about 15 minutes per flight, lol,,,,,,,,a model of it would go right along with O's though, wouldn't it?

just wanted to make sure I hadn't insulted you,,,,,hence this quick message

Rex

I know it wasn't pointed at me, and no offence taken.  I just added my to your reply.  It was to show that nothing is set in stone and any thing is possible when it comes to how the F-4 was configured.

I saw all kind of strange stuff loaded on the test Phantoms.  Some which I have no idea of what they were, even to this day. 

thanks iv only been spending around 2 hours per night average on it

decals done :) just gotta do the missiles now.
needs another gloss coat then the wash then a satin final coat and itl be done :)

Hey, Ya'll,

In O's pic of the a/c with the Navy pylon, I noticed the paint scheme didn't look "Navy" to me. Do you have an overall view of that a/c, O?

Thanks

Glenn

berny13

Bockscar, did you get the AM radome yet?  Is it solid resin or hollow on the inside?  I am building my Revell F-4E with the radome open and the radar package extended so I would need a hollow radome for my project. 

Berny that package looks like it oughta' be in orbit! Careful where you point it, wouldn't want to fry anything inadvertently!

No I haven't seen the resin radome yet, my experience is that resin tends to be thick if hollow at all.

We have a postal worker who goes micro-postal and crushes packages, who knows why?

I'll be lucky if the unit is solid, it might survive they guy's bashings. Will keep you posted.

Hi Everyone,

Eatthis, your Phantom is looking real nice! 

Berny, that is an awesome job on the radar package! 

Here is my cockpit so far:

Next step is to cut off the resin base.  I am going to use the saw that Rex recommended.  It will be my first time doing this, so wish me luck!

Ken

Hi Glenn,

Here's a pic of the jet I'm planning on building. 

It's an early USAF F-4C.  It's my understanding that the -C was basically a Navy F-4B that had been "Air Force-ified."  That's why the picture shows "Navy style" inboard pylons, but my main question is directed toward the outboard pylons.

Cheers!

-O

Hey FSMers,

OK, I think I can officially call myself obsessed with finding the answer to this outboard pylon question, and I submit the following for your consideration…

OK, let’s take a look at a close-up of the original pic:

Unfortunately it’s not a super hi-res shot, but let’s compare that with what I see in that pic.  I noticed something that I hadn’t noticed before that may finally answer my “what @#$% pylon’s hung on that outboard station”  question.

If we take a look at the aft end of the pylon, it looks to me like it’s missing a “notch.”  I’ve highlighted the outline of the pylon in red with the wing in yellow.

Is it just me, or does it look something like these…

…versus these?

I’ll give you some time to chew on that.  Let me know what you think.  I’m curious to hear (read) your take on it.

Cheers,

-O

TarnShip

O, since you seem to be the one "building because of pylons", lol

those "pylon sway braces" that get mentioned a lot,,,,right at the top of the pylon to wing joint?

well, those aren't sway braces,,,,,,I forget the real name but they are "pylon separation airfoils", not part of the wing at all,,,,,,,,the "curve" goes down, not up,,,,,,,they are there mounted on the pylon to help the pylon separate from the aircraft when they are jettisoned (sorry, got talking about two different things there,,,,,they are sway braces on the outer pylons, and airfoil shaped on the inners)

we just recently had a discussion on MM about those, some posted some pics, etc,,,,,,and Hasegawa has you mount them upside down in their 1/72 kit's instructions,,,,,,in real life they didn't actually touch the wing bottom, there was a gap that would be paper thin in 1/72,,,,,and Monogram's kits have them molded on the wing (not a bad thing, I think they were the first to mold them at all)

so, they were on with the curve down, not up,,,,,to generate "downward lift" during pylon sep ,,,,,,,,,in other words "lift AWAY from the wing, not towards it"

hth

Rex

edit to add:I hope this photo shows what I mean well enough,,,,,if it shows up the same as on Photobucket, you can see the slight shadow caused by the gap

edit again:,,,,,,it shows if you enlarge it

Rex

 

TarnShip:

Those sway braces sure look like earphones to me! That musta' been one BIG bomb they were loadin' up!

oortiz10

Hi Glenn,

Here's a pic of the jet I'm planning on building. 

Does that say 15 miniguns?!?  Who needs theAC-47, we can pepper the bad guys with that!

That will be a really neat build.  What scale?  I might have some 1/48 SUU-11 pods in my stash.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Yep, 15 miniguns.  Thanks for the offer, but I already picked up a bunch.  Squadron had 'em on sale for about 2 bucks a pair, so I grabbed what I needed.  Wish you woulda offered sooner...you coulda saved me some dough! 

Serioulsy, I think I have everything I need for the build.  The hardest part was coming up with enough TERs.  I know Hase offers 'em in a few of their weapons boxes, but I couldn't justify spending a good amount of money for a couple of TERs.  Luckily, a few generous modelers have donated some plastic to my project.

I'm almost done with my current project.  As soon as I wrap it up, I'm gonna dive in to my Phantom.  I'm really itchin' to get started...

AAAhhhh...soooo that's what they used before Agent Orange....

What kind of mission would a Phantom bearing 15 miniguns participate in? Ground attack I would presume but I mean, that's not very, uh, versatile eh?

Either that or he's lookin' to dog fight every Mig in the alley....

oddmanrush

What kind of mission would a Phantom bearing 15 miniguns participate in? Ground attack I would presume but I mean, that's not very, uh, versatile eh?

Either that or he's lookin' to dog fight every Mig in the alley....

That would make it a Mig "perforator" instead of a Mig "Killer"! 

Ken

are the yanks that bad at aiming they need 50 million rounds per min to hit anything? lol

(flame suit and crash hat on)

two funny things to reply to

first, the 15 miniguns,,,,,,,,as for the possible usage of that load,,,,,,I can see it going down a road that starts out filled with trucks,,,,,and the Recce bird not being able to find the target to take post strike pics,,,,,,,,think about those videos of what the AC-130 does to an area,,,,,,,,,that was definately being considered for air to ground, lol

the other thing,,,,,,,in all the time I've had that book, I've never noticed the Micky Mouse's hanging on that sway brace,,,,,,,,but, I was sort of used to finding them hanging in some strange places back in the day,,,,,,,,,,,the "lower rank pukes" would shed them for their "comfort" any time your back was turned, lol,,,,,,,,,,,,,being one of the lower ranking NCO's,,,,,,,I was the lucky guy that "got" to run around taking care of the little nagging things the Reserve enlisted would do on their weekend with us,,,,,,,,,,"nose wiping detail" it was called,,,,,,,ack,,,,,,I got to liking weekdays a lot towards the end, there,,,,,,,,,only us Regulars around, lol

as much as I swore at the "weekenders* ",,,,,I actually respect them for doing both their civilian jobs and then coming to their drill weekends,,,,,,,,,,looking back on it from the age of 54,,,,,,I only had one job back then, they had two

Rex

*weekenders,,,,,,after a bit of thought,,,,,,,,,best to use that term,,,,,all of the other terms wouldn't be "FSM safe", lol

I know one thing those miniguns would have been good for... Emergency Dive and/or speed brakes..  lol  Imagine all 15 firing at the same time...  You'd probably lose about 10 knots per second. lol

TarnShip

two funny things to reply to

first, the 15 miniguns,,,,,,,,as for the possible usage of that load,,,,,,I can see it going down a road that starts out filled with trucks,,,,,and the Recce bird not being able to find the target to take post strike pics,,,,,,,,think about those videos of what the AC-130 does to an area,,,,,,,,,that was definately being considered for air to ground, lol

the other thing,,,,,,,in all the time I've had that book, I've never noticed the Micky Mouse's hanging on that sway brace,,,,,,,,but, I was sort of used to finding them hanging in some strange places back in the day,,,,,,,,,,,the "lower rank pukes" would shed them for their "comfort" any time your back was turned, lol,,,,,,,,,,,,,being one of the lower ranking NCO's,,,,,,,I was the lucky guy that "got" to run around taking care of the little nagging things the Reserve enlisted would do on their weekend with us,,,,,,,,,,"nose wiping detail" it was called,,,,,,,ack,,,,,,I got to liking weekdays a lot towards the end, there,,,,,,,,,only us Regulars around, lol

as much as I swore at the "weekenders* ",,,,,I actually respect them for doing both their civilian jobs and then coming to their drill weekends,,,,,,,,,,looking back on it from the age of 54,,,,,,I only had one job back then, they had two

Rex

*weekenders,,,,,,after a bit of thought,,,,,,,,,best to use that term,,,,,all of the other terms wouldn't be "FSM safe", lol

oddmanrush

What kind of mission would a Phantom bearing 15 miniguns participate in? Ground attack I would presume but I mean, that's not very, uh, versatile eh?

Either that or he's lookin' to dog fight every Mig in the alley....

If you look at the caption on the photograph, you will see the aircraft is assigned to the weapons test squadron at Eglin AFB.  That was their job, to test weapons to see if they were compatible to use on the F-4.  They tested a lot of thing that was never cleared for operational use on the F-4. 

Thanks Berny, very interesting! Some times, though, when I'm in heavy traffic, it would be nice to have 15 SUU's strapped to the roof of the car

its done :)

went together fairly well and suprisingly quickly

very nice looking build of a famous aircraft

Phantoms look really good on the "finished shelf", don't they

Rex

regarding test aircraft,,,,,for the Phantom there is no real need to do whifs,,,,,,,there are plenty of "totally accurate ringers" to do first,,,,although I have thought of doing a Navalised F-4E lately, lol

if you search around you'll find lots of Phantom pics like O's bird,,,,,,Genie during tests, Nuke Bullpup during those tests,,,,,,real HOBOS on USAF,  and real combos of LGB's and guide pods,,,,,,,,TERs on the outboard on F-4J's,,,,all kinds of things that were either one-offs for testing,,,,,or even fairly common, but rarely photographed,,,,,,,,or mentioned in text, but never see a pic

I have a distinct fondness for the VF-74 B's with 6x Sparrows,,,,,and the Vietnam jets with Sparrow on one wing and Sidewinder on the other,,,,,,my other weakness is Weasels in "air show loads",,,,,with four different AGM's on the wing stations

TarnShip

regarding test aircraft,,,,,for the Phantom there is no real need to do whifs,,,,,,,there are plenty of "totally accurate ringers" to do first,,,,although I have thought of doing a Navalised F-4E lately, lol

if you search around you'll find lots of Phantom pics like O's bird,,,,,,Genie during tests, Nuke Bullpup during those tests,,,,,,real HOBOS on USAF,  and real combos of LGB's and guide pods,,,,,,,,TERs on the outboard on F-4J's,,,,all kinds of things that were either one-offs for testing,,,,,or even fairly common, but rarely photographed,,,,,,,,or mentioned in text, but never see a pic

I have a distinct fondness for the VF-74 B's with 6x Sparrows,,,,,and the Vietnam jets with Sparrow on one wing and Sidewinder on the other,,,,,,my other weakness is Weasels in "air show loads",,,,,with four different AGM's on the wing stations

Hey Rex, do you have a weakness for 'T' Birds, er, Thuds?

I have more of them than the Air Force does now!

Oh yeah ......"Nuke Bullpup"...... hmmm,,,,,I'ld like to take that dog for a walk........siccuuuummm pupppy!

Son Of Medicine Man

 

oddmanrush:

 

What kind of mission would a Phantom bearing 15 miniguns participate in? Ground attack I would presume but I mean, that's not very, uh, versatile eh?

Either that or he's lookin' to dog fight every Mig in the alley....

 

 

That would make it a Mig "perforator" instead of a Mig "Killer"! 

Ken

Yeah Ken;  

"No Rivet Left Alive!"