Spitfire GB

Yep, those are definitely Spitfires - great work guys.

About the underwing roundels (back to reference material), or lack of them during the Battle of Britain.  This was not peculiar to any particular squadron, but most, if not all fighter aircraft went through this phase of sans roundels starting around June 6th, 1940 when the new Sky Type S colour was introduced to Fighter Command.

 The roundels were left off for various reasons: 
-underside camouflage was more effective without these markings
-since German aircraft had clearly visible crosses, it would be easier to tell friend from foe at longer distances
-it was also of great help to ground spotters

On 11th August, 1940 a new policy was written and sent out, re-introducing underwing roundels for fighters.  During dogfights it was considered very important to be able to quickly identify friendlies.

Something I've noticed missing from the posted pics of BoB era Spitfires is the gas detection patch.  It was found on the port wing, yellow-green in colour and was usually in the shape of a square shaped diamond.  I guess this was not included with the decal sheets?

regards,
Jack

Checkmateking02 - QJ•Y looks good - I don't think I've seen roundels that close to the wingtips? DW•T, I've always loved the super-sized early war ID letters.

BBAT222 - I've always liked the desert colours on a Spit, I have one in the stash I'll be setting up as a Medi-based fighter.

Noah T - Photo blue over yellow on the floatfire? Agree with Greenshirt, that combo must be meant for use with the "P" decal I saw on your sheet, a prototype version.

Watching all of these builds is making me impatient to start up my Seafire. I think I have the few aftermarket bits I've picked up (replacement resin nose/exhaust, AM decals and various bits & pieces from the spares) for the Hobbycraft kit but I don't dare get into it until I clear up some other builds. Of course, after digging through the stash last night I stumbled upon a 1/72 Heller Spitfire Mk XVI, the clipped-wing bird. That would be a quick build, right?!?!?

Thanks for the kind words.  But I'm learning ( like don't prop the stabilizers when you think there dry! ) the MK IX is not a Beechcraft  V tail LOL.  

A big high five to Chackmateking and Noah T  on their Spitfires.  Just great professional work!  

Buddy B

Jack, Vance, Buddy:  thanks for the generous compliments and comments.

And because I like discussions like this, I'll put out some information I found on the markings.  I'm always interested in further insights you can provide.

Here are a couple of illustrations I got off the web, for the placement of the underwing roundels on QJ-Y.

This one is so small it's nearly illegible, but you can at least discern in the lower right the roundel placement near the wingtip.

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Here's the profile I used for colour and markings.  It appeared to me that QJ-Y's roundels were closer to the wingtip than EB-K's roundels.  Then, Noah T posted the profiles from Xtradecals BoB sheet back on p. 31, which I also have, and the instructions show OV-I carrying roundels out near the wingtip.  Between these three sources I decided to locate QJ-Y's underwing roundels were I did.  If nothing else, it's some variety.

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Gas detection patches are included with some aftermarket decal sheets, and here's a Hurricane I built about four years ago with one.  I don't remember anymore who put out the sheet.  This one is yellow, but I've seen them in a more greenish colour on other sheets.

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I haven't used them on any Spitfires because I haven't seen any photos where they do appear, but that might be because the photos I've used weren't shot from the left side of the plane or the proper angle.  From decal instructions, they seem to have been normally placed on the portside wing?

If there's more data out there, I'd love to hear it.  It keeps building models interesting. 

Good luck on all of your builds.  I look forward to checking back in.  I'll probably post my final effort, LO-P later today, the new mold Airfix with the engraved panel lines.

BBAT222 - Very nice Spit indeed. Nice to have you join us.

Checkmateking - I am really liking what you are turning out and especially appreciate the roundel detail. It's really informative

Checkmateking02 - that colour profile of three Spitfires you posted looks exactly the same from the SAM publication I have.  Actually it might even be the scan I did a few years back - lol.  Here's what is found on the facing page (only a partial scan as I don't want to be hammered with copyright infringement):

Only a small entry is devoted to the gas detection patch.  Right off the hop it states very little is currently known about the subject.  On broader terms, during the summer of 1940, many and varied aircraft carried these gas patches.  They were applied in one of two ways, either painted directly onto the aircraft or a square piece of fabric was treated with the special gas paint and doped into place with a thin piece of fabric soaked in red primer. These special markings disappeared by the spring of 1941.

This particular publication says it was for the benefit of ground crew that these patches were implemented.  Returning aircraft would be considered contaminated if the colour had changed (sources say either red or pink)  as this would indicate it had been in an environment of chemical warfare.  This could be the case while the RAF fought over France, which lead some to think during the BoB that these patches were discontinued.  Not necessarily so, during the summer of 1940 there still was a real fear of the Germans using chemical warfare.  I found this interesting point, if a pilot landed at his airfield a change of colour would indicate a gas attack had taken place and he could take off again .

Looking through Osprey's Spitfire Mark I/II Aces, up to the end of 1940 there are only three photos that show to the best advantage the port wing, and all three have this gas patch.  Using this ratio of 100% though I'm still hesitant to say all Spitfires had this greenish yellow square.  It's one of those scenarios where one can't prove or disprove.  Anyways, the below pic is of 602 Sqn, dated April 1940

regards,

Jack

Thanks, Joe.  I appreciate it.

Great information, Jack.  Thanks very much for posting it.  And you may very well have posted the profiles I used; I thought I found them here at FSM, but when I looked again last week, I couldn't find them.  They were very useful.

And speaking of 602 Squadron, here's my final entry, LO-P of said squadron--and if I'd only known, I'd have added the gas patch.  This is the new 1/72 Airfix molding; the first two were the old Airifix Spitifires.

Underside, in WEM's Eau de Nil green.  I used a darker green wash in the engraved lines, and it settled in very well.  Without roundels, this area needs something to spice it up.

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Next, a tour around the aircraft from port to starboard.  There isn't much to say here that hasn't been said about the first two, except maybe the wheels.  I painted all three sets with Floquil RR "Grimy Black," a very dark gray;  then masked with MicroMask and painted the hub colours.  When I pulled off the masks a few hours later, the hub colours came off around the rims with the mask on LO-P and QJ-Y.

Disgruntled, I then repainted the hubs on the two miscreants and painted the tires by hand (with a brush!) using "Pewter Gray," an acrylic craft paint from Apple Barrel.  It looked darker in the bottle, but then, my car tires aren't black either[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

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By the look of it, I might have used "Grimy Black" on LO-P's propeller, too. 

The engine exhausts are a little fuller and "beefier" on the new mold, with a bit more detail.

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A close up of the canopy area; it might not be evident from the photo, but the new mold canopy seems molded in a shinier, clearer type plastic than the old molds.

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Finally, my swan song; all three Spits gathered on an RAF flag.  Thought maybe our GB leader would prefer one picture on the first page, rather than three, and I was undecided which of the following might be the most artsy and effective.

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Again, thank you for looking; this GB has been an enlightening source of information and inspiration, and I've enjoyed the comradery and discussions very much, not to mention seeing all the talented Spitifre artisans out there. 

Aloha.

And before I forget, I'm probably not done building Spitfires in the future, and I wanted to do some that were flown by various specific pilots of read about.

Does anyone know the aircraft letters assigned to:

1.  Cyril "Bam" Bamberger (610 Squadron, DW-something?)

2.  Hugh "Cocky" Dundas (616 Squadron, QJ-something?)

3.  Peter Pease (603 Squadron); I found on the web that he was reportedly shot down in XT-B, but I was looking for an aircraft with a more felicitous association with him.

It would also be great if I knew whether the craft was in A or B scheme.

Any help, assistance or direction that can be provided, I will appreciate greatly.  Thanks.

All: Thanks for the kind words, my talent is best suited at this level of build.

Chekmate: The canopy came out really nice on LO P. They look great together nice work again.

As far as the Floatfire colors. Regard:

Thanks, Noah.  Your comments are always appreciated.

 
Is that yellow underneath the unpronounceable-Russian-named Floatfire?  That's neat.  WIll it be a bright yellow?

Thanks Joe for the comments and letting me know that I'm a part of this great GB.  Uh do I need to redo her serial codes to English from the Americans?   Is there a location to learn the lettering applications for these war birds.  Buddy B.  -------  Hmmm  amazing what  photo close ups show you!!!!!   Hoyyyyy

JOLLY GOOD OLD CHAP------- What a picture.  Congratulation on your endeavor.   Buddy B.  

Noah, re: Floatfire

There were three attempts a putting floats on a Spitfire, the first used a Mk I, R6722, modified by Folland Aircraft using Blackburn Roc floats and delivered to No 12 MU on 3 June 1940.  It was a major disappointment and in May 1941 was converted back to a standard Mk Va.

After design work using the Mk III as the basis (never actually built, but 2 prototype Mk III fighters were made -- long story there), Folland converted a Mk Vb, W3760, using Supermarine floats (remember they made the S6B of racing fame) and it was ready for testing in September, 1942.  Two additional prototypes were converted from Mk Vb, EP951 and EP754; delivered in August 1942 but not tested until September 1943 (why the delay is not clear).  They were "sort of" tested operationally in Egypt until November 1944 when they were returned to England and struck of charge in December 1944.  Given their mission was to intercept Ju52 transports delivering fuel over the Med, they probably wore a scheme of Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey camo with Sky undersides.  My only b/w photo of them in Egypt shows a very light underside color, probably Sky.  If there are squadron markings, they are not visible in the photos.  Technically the 3 aircraft were listed as a Flight, but no formal designation seems to exist.  Of note, there are photos during testing in England and they show the yellow P in circle.  I would presume they had yellow undersides at that point.  Based on timing, W3760 was most probably in Dark Green/Dark Earth when delivered, the other two could have been either DG/DE or Dark Green/Ocean Grey.  My refs don't indicate either.

After debate and design studies using the Mk VIII, a sole Mk IX was converted, MJ892 and delivered in May 1944.  Only two cannons installed, no outer stub, but with all 4 .303 machine guns.  According to "Spitfire the History" it was painted normal Day Fighter Scheme upper surfaces with yellow undersides.  The pictures I have do NOT show a Sky fuselage band nor yellow leading edge on the wings.  So scheme would be Dark Green/Ocean Grey uppersurfaces, standard pattern, with Yellow undersides.  The yellow is not a bright yellow, like Lemon Yellow nor is it an Orange Yellow, but it does have a touch of red in it to give it a slight orange tinge.  Humbrol Trainer Yellow is perfect and what I use.  Markings are standard wing, fuselage and tail markings but with the yellow P in circle.  It was struck of charge on 22 November 1945.

Interestingly, the initial requirement for a Spitfire Floatplane was not the Pacific Theater but for Norway where it was envisioned that squadrons would operate from fjords until an airfield ashore could be captured and squadrons transferred from England.  Remember that the requirement was created during the Norwegian campaign in May 1940.  By late 1944 the RAF was considering its use in the Pacific Theater but not seriously; there are references to possibly using the F21 as the basis.  Supermarine recommended against it but provided the designs anyway.

Your kit represents the Mk IX conversion.  I base this on the two symmetrical radiators on the wing bottom.  The Mk I and Vb conversions would have the asymmetrical radiator/oil cooler. 

Hope this helps.

Tim

Hi Tim.  Buddy B.     Have you or anybody built the Floatfire.   This is a great tale.  Shame it didn't make production.     Buddy

Tim (Greenshirt): Awesome info thank you very much for the scoop. The side of the box pic shows the yellow belly but sky on the bottom of the pontoons. I'm going for it....

Checkmateking - Thank You very much for sharing your excellent builds, knowledge and talents. Your Spits tuely are eye catching. As for your final presentation- NICE!!!

                                                     Regards, Joe

checkmateking02 - very nice presentation of your trio of Spitfires.

To "spice" up the undersides, what about stencil work - as far as I'm aware,  this data was still applied to the underwings.  Another option is specific weathering - add some dirt streaks from the ejector chutes and oil stains from the engine.  There's a fellow that goes by the name of Edgar on various forums and is well respected.  I like his description :

"Groundcrew were extremely proud of "their" aircraft, and considered them to be only on loan to the pilot.  I worked with an ex-609 Squadron erk, and he said that, even during the Battle of Britain, any repair was painted, before the Spitfire flew again.  It might not have been the "right" colour, but it was painted.  The trend, to build models with streaks of powder burns across the wing, has got out of hand.  Cordite didn't stain, like that, and was relatively easy to clean off.  Also, the patches, to cover the gun muzzles, were self-adhesive (rather like sticking plasters,) and wouldn't have adhered at all well to the cordite.  Underneath, where the empty cases came out, was a different matter; the mixture of cordite, gun oil, and grease, made a fairly mucky trail from the ports.  Oil tended to leak from the Merlin, and this came out of the lower engine cover.  Attempts were always made to extend the Spifire's range, and the engine would be "leaned out," which tended to make the exhaust stain grey, rather than black."

Here's an example of a Malta based Spitfire I had done about 8 years ago.  Maybe a bit overboard, but I think is in keeping with the environment during those precarious months on that tiny island.

About the older plastic canopies, dipping them, or even brushing on some "future" acrylic might have helped clear them up.

Regarding the trio of named pilots, I don't have anything that specific in my library.  As for the net I probably found the same things you already have, neverthless some quick searches:
An entry found for Dundas:  QJ-A http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=53134
Doing image searches sometimes helps.  Someone on a British forum built up Cyril "Bam" Bamberger aircraft as DW-O
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=53788
Peter Pease - I couldn't find any other aircraft markings other than the one you already have for him.

Stumbled on an interesting and very informable graphical presention timeline of the  Spitfire's underwing changes:

regards,
Jack

Thanks very much, Buddy, Joe.  The project was a great learning experience for me.

Great information, Jack, and I appreciate it very much.  I think I've run across Edgar when doing research, either at Britmodeler or the Airfix Tribute Forum. 

I considered stencils.  They came with the Airfix new mold kit, but I wasn't sure with all the painting and repainting that seems to have gone on during BoB, that they would have been retained.  Next time I build a Spitfire, I'll probably put all the stencils on it.  That too provides for variation.

Actually, these Spits were the first models I've even tried weathering with for years, using the washes I described.  Tried years ago with a B-17, used thinner based wash and it was a disaster; ya know, enamel over enamel?  Awful mess.  I was fortunate to get it off the plane without losing the whole endeavor.  (I think I still have the plane, too!)

Since then I've learned to use acrylic washes over laquer and enamals, so these Spits were the "great experiment."  I was tempted to try the powder residue, with pastel dust on these, but kind of chickened out, not wishing to tempt fate.  It gives me something to try next time.

I appreciate the underside diagrams and photos, particularly of the plane you built.  The colours will give me something to go on.

And thanks very much for the information you found on those pilots.  I could find absolutely nothing on Dundas; found a very small thumbnail of an artist's print for Pease's plane, but the codes were pixilized and illegible.  An internet shop in England was selling a replica of Bam's Spitifre, and carried the DW-O codes, but I wasn't sure if that was accurate.

I'm looking forward to seeing more Spitfires from y'all here.  Tally ho. 

I'd like to get in on this GB if possible, with a 1:48 Hasegawa Spitfire Mk. IXc

JailCop, youre in. This week I'll go through the last few pages and catch up on everything. Checkmatekings picture is on the front, a few others I need to catch up on.

Yep, I be one of those needing catching up on.  Also put me down for Tamiya's 1/48 Spitfire Mk.I

The Vc will be shelved for a while as another forum will be hosting a Malta GB scheduled for next March.

regards,

Jack

Just finished my 1/32 Mark IX

Might post the thing up for lols ha

Greenshirt

I started another new-tool Airfix Mk I/IIa tonight.  Other than the extra sprue it's the same kit.  I'll report in how it goes together, with pix.

Quoting myself, but this is for CheckMateKing02.

I've built up a new tool Airfix Mk !a to the point of primed and ready for paint.  The build pictures, with notes, are here.  After rereading your posts, technically I had the same issues that you had, but I guess I don't view them as "problems", just part of the modeling process. I generally have the same issues with ALL my Spitfire kits, not just this one.

• The IP is a bit wide for the forward fuselage and if not trimmed at the "shoulders" will cause a gap along the upper fuselage joint.  For my build the trimming was just a few swipes of a sanding stick.
• Even with the IP trimmed to fit, the lower fuselage-to-wing joint is too wide by about a mm.  If not corrected it will eliminate all dihedral and make the model look all wrong.  Again, lots of dry-fitting and just a few swipes of the sanding stick got it to fit perfectly.  I required no filler there.
• The only places I needed filler were where I got too aggressive with the nippers and took a bit too much plastic from the part as it came from the sprues.  There was also a slight gap between the forward wing and lower nose panels, but that required very little filler (I used Mr Surfacer 500 and sanded it clean 45 minutes later).

I'll post finished pictures once I'm done.

Tim

Tim:  nice build pictures. 

I came to really appreciate the new-mold Spitifre while building it.  But I like the old-mold too.  In the future, I expect I will continue to build both.  In a world where many kits have serious issues, the Airfix Spits are a pleasure to build.  But then, so are Airfix Hurricanes--both of them (in 1/72).

I have the new-mold Mk I/IIa on the shelf.  I think I'd like to build it as a Spit over Dunkirk.  By that time, had the 2-blade prop been replaced by the 3-blade prop?

Thanks for the information.  I look forward to seeing the photos.   

As luck would have it, I'm in the middle of reading Osprey's Spitfire Mark I/II Aces.  From what I read here, I'd say the 2-blade prop was long gone by the time of Dunkirk.  Only the first 77 batch of Spitfires were equiped this way, afterwards they would have the de Havelland three-bladed two-pitch metal airscrew.  Just before BoB would begin, another new constant speed propeller was being introduced.  These were also 3-bladed and produced by both Rotol and de Havelland.  Hopefully Tim will drop by with more info.

Found something interesting in a comparison of Tamiya's pilot with that of ARK Models (albeit the latter is a Hurricane kit).  The figures look similar, but the eastern Europe manufacture has better, more crisper detail.  Too bad the same can't be said of their aircraft.

regards,

Jack

Thanks, Jack; that is helpful.  I knew the 2-blade was replaced, but could not find a definite answer to whether it was before or after Dunkirk. 

Is the pilot from Tamiya's 1/72 Spitfire?  Or 1/48?  I have the 1/72 on the shelf, but haven't opened it yet.  I've gotten too fond of Airfix's offerings, I suppose.

jgeratic1

As luck would have it, I'm in the middle of reading Osprey's Spitfire Mark I/II Aces.  From what I read here, I'd say the 2-blade prop was long gone by the time of Dunkirk.  Only the first 77 batch of Spitfires were equiped this way, afterwards they would have the de Havelland three-bladed two-pitch metal airscrew.  Just before BoB would begin, another new constant speed propeller was being introduced.  These were also 3-bladed and produced by both Rotol and de Havelland.  Hopefully Tim will drop by with more info.

I cannot add more...ok, 3D-Kits offers Rotol conversion sets in 72nd at a modest price. Can be used for Spitfires and Hurricanes. Web site here: http://www.3d-kits.co.uk/index.html

Tim

I'm going to have to get that Spitfire book.

If I understand correctly then, both Mk I's and Mk II's could have the Rotol?  Somewhere I read that Mk II's were only coming into the squadrons in August, 1940. 

The Rotol spinner appears more blunt at the tip than most kit parts, so this means that kit props are de Havilland?

I'm assuming (and we know how that can go), that the only way to tell whether a specific plane has Rotol or de Havilland is to check photo references.

CMK02:

It's a slippery slope getting Spitfire books...

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.