Yeah Ken;

Berny and I were looking over the flame holders in Dayton, and he was saying they were just very thin stamped titanium, not heavy, they were like glo plugs in a Deisel engine, just there to stay red hot and keep the flame going as a last resort for flame out or after-burner ingnition.

For the inside of the cans, looks like Eduard-Brassin decided there is no reason to attach them to the inside of the cans, and mounted them on the turbine cone instead. in real life, they were only about 1/16 of an inch off those cones or so.

dom

Bockscar

Son Of Medicine Man

Thank you everyone for your support!  I did spend a lot of time on them but not a great deal.  As Dom said, I can't install them looking like that after all the work I have put into the rest of the kit.

Aires did get back with me and they are sending another set of photo etch.  But I don't know if I could do any better with another set!  Plus they are coming all the way from the Czech Republic, so who knows how long it will take to get here.

I have already ordered the Eduard Brassin set and it will probably be here before the end of the week.  Of course I will still have to paint everything again so it will be a close race!  But the Eduard Brassin set has the extra detail parts so it may not matter.

Ken

Ken;

it is kind of weird, trying to find the correct procedure to install the flame holders.

But here is a hint:

It looks like Eduard's solution is to cut he inner rings out, and just attach them directly to the turbine cone.

See that step in the cone? that is where the old kit attaches them.

I'll keep looking, this is actually a very interesting problem, I don't know how Aires could mess up

so many customers like that, there is no way you could be the first or only one suffering their lack of foresight.

Dom

here are some more shots:

and:

Link is:

http://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/Brassin/Aircraft/1-48/F-4-exhaust-nozzles-early-1-48.html

Just a thought, I don't think you can squeeze the Aires outside ring inside the cans, the flame holders have to sit on the cones, on that step.

Just a thought.

dom

Hi Dom,

Yes, I already read that in their instructions.  The Aires flame holders were supposed to fit inside the cans and butt up against a step inside the cans.  Which would have worked great if they had "fit" inside.  But after looking at this Eduard Brassin set and comparing it to the Aires set, the Eduard Brassin set just blows the Aires set away!  Much more accurate!

Ken

Hi Dom,

Here is a picture where the museum painted the flame holders red to depict the action of keeping the flame burning like you described:

Ken 

Son Of Medicine Man

Bockscar

Son Of Medicine Man

Thank you everyone for your support!  I did spend a lot of time on them but not a great deal.  As Dom said, I can't install them looking like that after all the work I have put into the rest of the kit.

Aires did get back with me and they are sending another set of photo etch.  But I don't know if I could do any better with another set!  Plus they are coming all the way from the Czech Republic, so who knows how long it will take to get here.

I have already ordered the Eduard Brassin set and it will probably be here before the end of the week.  Of course I will still have to paint everything again so it will be a close race!  But the Eduard Brassin set has the extra detail parts so it may not matter.

Ken

Ken;

it is kind of weird, trying to find the correct procedure to install the flame holders.

But here is a hint:

It looks like Eduard's solution is to cut he inner rings out, and just attach them directly to the turbine cone.

See that step in the cone? that is where the old kit attaches them.

I'll keep looking, this is actually a very interesting problem, I don't know how Aires could mess up

so many customers like that, there is no way you could be the first or only one suffering their lack of foresight.

Dom

here are some more shots:

and:

Link is:

http://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/Brassin/Aircraft/1-48/F-4-exhaust-nozzles-early-1-48.html

Just a thought, I don't think you can squeeze the Aires outside ring inside the cans, the flame holders have to sit on the cones, on that step.

Just a thought.

dom

Hi Dom,

Yes, I already read that in their instructions.  The Aires flame holders were supposed to fit inside the cans and butt up against a step inside the cans.  Which would have worked great if they had "fit" inside.  But after looking at this Eduard Brassin set and comparing it to the Aires set, the Eduard Brassin set just blows the Aires set away!  Much more accurate!

Ken

I figured you would figure as much....lol

So now you have the real deal, looking forward to seeing those flame holders inside those cans......

Dom

Son Of Medicine Man

Hi Dom,

Here is a picture where the museum painted the flame holders red to depict the action of keeping the flame burning like you described:

Ken 

That's a keeper all right.

Notice how the holder rings are not perfectly round, they warped with heat, Berny said they sometimes

rubbed a bit on the cone, but not often, and no problems.

Thanks for the pic.

Dom

Bockscar

Son Of Medicine Man

Hi Dom,

Here is a picture where the museum painted the flame holders red to depict the action of keeping the flame burning like you described:

Ken 

What a great shot, where'd the green cans go....lol

That's a keeper all right.

Notice how the holder rings are not perfectly round, they warped with heat, Berny said they sometimes

rubbed a bit on the cone, but not often, and no problems.

Thanks for the pic.

Dom

I think this is a stripped down engine that is on display, so the long can with the tail feathers are missing.

Ken

Yeah Ken,

I can see the saw marks where thy cut away the cans and feathers.

By the way, wasn't trying to outsmart you there on the AM flame holder solution,

just thought it was real interesting.

Dom

Ken, that sucks that the Aries kit didn't work. I bought some AM ejection seats one time, and was very disappointed to find that they were very under scale and looked more like a child's booster seat or something.

I was out of town all weekend, so not much happened at the bench. I would like to say I was fishing, but that would imply actually catching fish, of which I did not. Nothing, nada, zero, zip, zilch! Actually, I enjoyed getting away I guess, and spending time with my out of town friend.

I did practice my own form of insanity with afterburner cans and the flame holders: This parts may look huge magnified by the camera, but....

In 1:72 scale, they are just insane!

It took me the better part on an hour trying to get those things into position, and keep them there until I could drop some CA in there to keep them in place. I was ready end my 13 year non-alcohol life style and go for a drink!

Of course you'll barely be able to see them once the outer nozzles are in place. I also need to pick another metalizer color in there as this one is just wrong, I think.

Also began playing with a side project just for fun.

This Dragon kit in 1:72 scale (what else) has a fair amount of detail, but some of it is kind of a wasted. Most of the engine detail you can see here will be covered up, and not visible. It also has the full breach for the big gun, which also gets buried. I'm kind of out of my element here as I know so little about painting tanks. Oh well, I just wanted to have a little fun with it....

I think it's about time to but the wings on the Hornet, but I always seem to stall a bit before adding any major parts.

Bockscar

Yeah Ken,

I can see the saw marks where thy cut away the cans and feathers.

By the way, wasn't trying to outsmart you there on the AM flame holder solution,

just thought it was real interesting.

Dom

No problem Dom, I wasn't thinking that you were!   

Ken

jimbot58

Ken, that sucks that the Aries kit didn't work. I bought some AM ejection seats one time, and was very disappointed to find that they were very under scale and looked more like a child's booster seat or something.

I was out of town all weekend, so not much happened at the bench. I would like to say I was fishing, but that would imply actually catching fish, of which I did not. Nothing, nada, zero, zip, zilch! Actually, I enjoyed getting away I guess, and spending time with my out of town friend.

I did practice my own form of insanity with afterburner cans and the flame holders: This parts may look huge magnified by the camera, but....

In 1:72 scale, they are just insane!

It took me the better part on an hour trying to get those things into position, and keep them there until I could drop some CA in there to keep them in place. I was ready end my 13 year non-alcohol life style and go for a drink!

Of course you'll barely be able to see them once the outer nozzles are in place. I also need to pick another metalizer color in there as this one is just wrong, I think.

Also began playing with a side project just for fun.

This Dragon kit in 1:72 scale (what else) has a fair amount of detail, but some of it is kind of a wasted. Most of the engine detail you can see here will be covered up, and not visible. It also has the full breach for the big gun, which also gets buried. I'm kind of out of my element here as I know so little about painting tanks. Oh well, I just wanted to have a little fun with it....

I think it's about time to but the wings on the Hornet, but I always seem to stall a bit before adding any major parts.

Nice to hear from you Jim!  Sorry to hear that you didn't catch any fish, but like you said, the best part of the trip was spending it with your friend!

On the magnification with the camera, that is why I always throw in that stupid dime in my pictures.  It makes it easier to get a perspective of scale that way.  And I am dealing with 1/48!  That dime would look gigantic in your pictures with the 1/72 scale parts!

Great job in shaping those photo etch.  You are really good at that!   

A tank???  Where did this come from?  Did it crawl out of its box and onto your workbench when you were gone fishing?  Oh well, you need something for target practice for the Hornet!! 

Ken

The tanks been in the stash for some time. I happened across it one day and just started to play with it....

jimbot58

The tanks been in the stash for some time. I happened across it one day and just started to play with it....

I may have built a tank or two when I was a kid.  Too long ago to remember.  It would be great to get those memories back to play again!

I did not know you had a fondness for tanks Jim?

Ken

Hi Everyone,

The Eduard Brassin exhaust is supposed to arrive tomorrow, so only one more day until I get back to work at the bench!   

Ken

Jim: Gee whiz those things are tiny in 1/72nd.

Nice thing about having a gun breech in a tank model is so if you pose the hatches open you can see a little bit of it inside. At least in 1/35th- not sure how effective it will be in 1/72nd.

Son Of Medicine Man

jimbot58

The tanks been in the stash for some time. I happened across it one day and just started to play with it....

I may have built a tank or two when I was a kid.  Too long ago to remember.  It would be great to get those memories back to play again!

I did not know you had a fondness for tanks Jim?

Ken

I've always liked tanks, but never got into building them much. I did one once before as a diversion:

I'm having trouble focusing on the Hornet so I'm getting a bit distracted by other things, like the tank.

Very nice looking tank Jim!  Looks like you can build just about anything you put your mind to.

I know what you mean about having trouble focusing.  I am more than ready to get done with this Phantom, and now I have to re-do the exhaust.  Something that I hate doing, is re-doing!

Ken

Hi Everyone,

Hold the bus!  Not everything about the Eduard Brassin F-4 exhaust kit is perfect!  No, no, no.  Ready for a side by side comparison of the Aires F-4 exhaust kit and Eduard Brassin F-4 exhaust it?  Well here it is...

First the Aires package:

Now the Eduard Brassin package:

Here is the instruction sheet that comes with the Aires kit:

And here is the instruction sheet that comes with the Eduard kit:

Now here is a side by side comparison of the exhaust cans.  First thing that I noticed was the diameter was different!  The Aires kit is has a larger diameter than the Eduard kit (Eduard is on the left, Aires is on the right):

 In fact, enough of a difference that the Eduard cans will fit inside the Aires cans!

 Here is a side by side comparison of the exhaust turbine.  Once again a diameter difference.  Aires is on the left, Eduard is on the right:

Here are the exhaust nozzles.  The Aires nozzle is on the left, the Eduard nozzle is on the right:

 And here is the side view of the exhaust nozzles, Aires on the left, Eduard on the right:

 And now we come to test fitting.  Here is where Eduard is no different than Aires.  In fact, I would say worse.  The exhaust turbine will not fit inside the exhaust can:

 The photo etch will not fit inside the exhaust cans:

They almost will fit, so with the thickness of the wall of the exhaust cans there is plenty of resin to work with to file them down to make room so they can fit along with the exhaust turbines.  But          they should fit without any extra work!!! 

And by the way Dom, we were both wrong on how the photo etch mounted.  Only the thin wired set of photo etch mounts on the exhaust turbine shown in this next picture.  The flame holders still mount on the same way on the Eduard set, up against the step inside the exhaust cans.  The hole inside the flame holders is way too small to fit over the exhaust turbine so I looked closer at the instruction page and you can see they are only showing the thin wire photo etch mounting directly onto the exhaust turbine.  I looked closer at the pictures I have and you can see this thin wire disc behind the flame holders.  So it is another piece of detail that the Eduard set has that the Aires set does not.

 So there you have it.  My side by side comparison of the Aires and Eduard Brassin F-4 exhaust kits!  I hope you enjoyed reading it as much as I did writing it!!!!

Ken

I found a video of a J-79 being tested by the same guy who gave the tour of the J-79 that I posted earlier.  After burner included!!  Really cool to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SH5953iQ6w 

Ken

That is cool, Ken! That guy with no ear protectors is a fool. Even if he had ear plugs they wouldn't be enough protection that close to the engine. Even plugs and ear protectors might not be enough for some people.

Thanks for the link!

Russ

Striker8241

That is cool, Ken! That guy with no ear protectors is a fool. Even if he had ear plugs they wouldn't be enough protection that close to the engine. Even plugs and ear protectors might not be enough for some people.

Thanks for the link!

Russ

You are welcome Russ!  I am glad you liked it!  I also couldn't believe that they weren't wearing any eye protection either!

While I was watching it I was thinking how two of those things blasting away would have felt strapped into an F-4.  Must have been quite a ride!

Ken

Well, Ken;

As they say in the Math Department: "I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong,"

I knew they were going to use that step on the turbine cone to

mount part of the after-burner fuel injection, but may be a cone truss, most likely...

The thinner 'wire' part is probably the attempt at a strut to hold the turbine cone or spray bar for fuel, it is made of steel. The flame holder isn't a flat piece of metal. It is a three stage set of rings formed by stamping and forging titanium, making a 3D basket that wraps around the cone.

I think the PE guys can't make their parts any more than 2D, so they put a flat piece in to re-create the illusion of the original part, and dedicated guys like you end up repairing the damage caused by carppy design.

But you are right, why in heck, for the premium price of AM parts, can't the photo etch just

fit inside the cans? Does anyone in Eastern Europe get it, or what?

You were being polite censoring yourself.......and remember;

"We may not always be right, but we are never wrong"....LOL

Dom

Striker8241

That is cool, Ken! That guy with no ear protectors is a fool. Even if he had ear plugs they wouldn't be enough protection that close to the engine. Even plugs and ear protectors might not be enough for some people.

Thanks for the link!

Russ

Dom

Bockscar

Well, Ken;

As they say in the Math Department: "I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong,"

I knew they were going to use that step on the turbine cone to

mount part of the after-burner fuel injection, but may be a truss, most likely...

The thinner 'wire' part is probably the attempt at a strut or spray bar for fuel, it is made of steel. The flame holder isn't a flat piece of metal. It is a three stage set of rings formed by stamping and forging titanium, making a 3D basket that wraps around the cone.

I think the PE guys can't make their parts any more than 2D, so they put a flat piece in to re-create the illusion of the original part, and dedicated guys like you end up repairing the damage caused by carppy design.

But you are right, why in heck, for the premium price of AM parts, can't the photo etch just

fit inside the cans? Does anyone in Eastern Europe get it, or what?

You were being polite censoring yourself.......and remember;

"We may not always be right, but we are never wrong"....LOL

Dom

Cool picture Dom!  Thank you for posting that!  I was trying to get a good look at that and that nails it.

Now I wonder if possibly shaping the photo etch into a cone shape would make it fit and add more depth.  Hmmm.....

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

Bockscar

Well, Ken;

As they say in the Math Department: "I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong,"

I knew they were going to use that step on the turbine cone to

mount part of the after-burner fuel injection, but may be a truss, most likely...

The thinner 'wire' part is probably the attempt at a strut or spray bar for fuel, it is made of steel. The flame holder isn't a flat piece of metal. It is a three stage set of rings formed by stamping and forging titanium, making a 3D basket that wraps around the cone.

I think the PE guys can't make their parts any more than 2D, so they put a flat piece in to re-create the illusion of the original part, and dedicated guys like you end up repairing the damage caused by carppy design.

But you are right, why in heck, for the premium price of AM parts, can't the photo etch just

fit inside the cans? Does anyone in Eastern Europe get it, or what?

You were being polite censoring yourself.......and remember;

"We may not always be right, but we are never wrong"....LOL

Dom

Cool picture Dom!  Thank you for posting that!  I was trying to get a good look at that and that nails it.

Now I wonder if possibly shaping the photo etch into a cone shape would make it fit and add more depth.  Hmmm.....

Ken

Thanks,

I have no idea how flexible, stretchable, or form-able PE is. I would not want to pretend to give advice here.

If you want to try it out, maybe use the old parts that got crunched to see if they have any controllable 'give'. At very best, just enough to squeeze them into the cans. It is hard to perceive the basket shape from back of the turkey feathers.

Nice video, don't often get to see a J-79 in after-burner that up-close. Some guys have all the best toys.....shiiiishhh.....

Dom

GE J79! I gotta get me one of those! Nice video although the cameras do not capture the sound!

Here are the same guys playing with snow and the J79:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb6BoaB-atQ

That's one way to clear your driveway!

So Ken, are you going to be able to make any of that work?

Well, the Hornet got its wings last night (did you hear the bells Clarence?)

Sitting here looking at a scale model, it makes me realize that the Super Hornet is one big a** airplane! I guess the fact that my last build was the A-7, which is tiny in comparison, makes it seem so. Many don't realize that this version of the Hornet is a whole new aircraft based on the over all design of the A-D versions and not just an upcsale version.

By the way, the video I added, you get to see the actuators working that operate the nozzle....

Hey, Ken,

Why not combine the best features of both kits? You've already spent the money and they're in your hands...

In fact, with all the work you're going to do on detail that won't hardly be visible, why not open up the side panels so you can show everything - intakes, engine, exhausts... are there engines with the kit?  Well, at least the intakes and exhausts! .

Russ

Bockscar

Well, Ken;

As they say in the Math Department: "I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong,"

I knew they were going to use that step on the turbine cone to

mount part of the after-burner fuel injection, but may be a cone truss, most likely...

The thinner 'wire' part is probably the attempt at a strut to hold the turbine cone or spray bar for fuel, it is made of steel. The flame holder isn't a flat piece of metal. It is a three stage set of rings formed by stamping and forging titanium, making a 3D basket that wraps around the cone.

I think the PE guys can't make their parts any more than 2D, so they put a flat piece in to re-create the illusion of the original part, and dedicated guys like you end up repairing the damage caused by carppy design.

But you are right, why in heck, for the premium price of AM parts, can't the photo etch just

fit inside the cans? Does anyone in Eastern Europe get it, or what?

You were being polite censoring yourself.......and remember;

"We may not always be right, but we are never wrong"....LOL

Dom

Nice picture, Dom! I've filed a copy away for reference when I build my F4.

Thanks!

Russ

jimbot58

GE J79! I gotta get me one of those! Nice video although the cameras do not capture the sound!

Here are the same guys playing with snow and the J79:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb6BoaB-atQ

That's one way to clear your driveway!

So Ken, are you going to be able to make any of that work?

Well, the Hornet got its wings last night (did you hear the bells Clarence?)

Sitting here looking at a scale model, it makes me realize that the Super Hornet is one big a** airplane! I guess the fact that my last build was the A-7, which is tiny in comparison, makes it seem so. Many don't realize that this version of the Hornet is a whole new aircraft based on the over all design of the A-D versions and not just an upcsale version.

Beauty airplane,,,,,,incredibly sweet lines, very cool

I love those leading fuselage edges, reminds me of a Jim Behring skinner, great sweep!

Thanks for the J79 link......I wounder how long a snow fort would last....LOL

Dom

Striker8241

Bockscar

Well, Ken;

As they say in the Math Department: "I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong,"

I knew they were going to use that step on the turbine cone to

mount part of the after-burner fuel injection, but may be a cone truss, most likely...

The thinner 'wire' part is probably the attempt at a strut to hold the turbine cone or spray bar for fuel, it is made of steel. The flame holder isn't a flat piece of metal. It is a three stage set of rings formed by stamping and forging titanium, making a 3D basket that wraps around the cone.

I think the PE guys can't make their parts any more than 2D, so they put a flat piece in to re-create the illusion of the original part, and dedicated guys like you end up repairing the damage caused by carppy design.

But you are right, why in heck, for the premium price of AM parts, can't the photo etch just

fit inside the cans? Does anyone in Eastern Europe get it, or what?

You were being polite censoring yourself.......and remember;

"We may not always be right, but we are never wrong"....LOL

Dom

Nice picture, Dom! I've filed a copy away for reference when I build my F4.

Thanks!

Russ

Thanks Russ:

"I LOVE THAT PLANT!"

errrr.....

"I hate Jack Lemming!"

errrr

"I hate Jack Lemmon!"

errrr

"That's the ticket!!!".....LOL....Hollywood turned Jack on, but who is going to turn him, you know,,,,,, off?...lol....sorry for the sick humor guys.......

J-79......more blades than a samurai convention......

Dom