Hey Moff there was probably some racism there but I think it was more the attitude of the respective foes. Germans and Italians with the exception of some fanatic SS types would surrender if forced into a hopeless position. The Japanese didn't, someone once commented that Japanese POW was almost a counterdiction in terms. Besides the Kamikaze Japanese infantry textbooks stated that troops pinned down in a hopeless situation should launch Banzai attacks- aka charge into the enemy trying to take out as many as possible before being killed. 'Surrendering' Japanese would walk up to Allied troops with a grenade or demo charge hidden in their clothing and then charge into a crowd before detonating themselvies. Basically the whole mindset was so alien to Westerners that that it created most of the problems.

I'm not sure the A-bomb wouldn't have been used on Germany. The UK had been at war for six long years and the US wanted the whole mess over so I not sure any 'quick, cheap, & dirty' method to end the war would have been rejected. Heck, in Korea seroius plans were made to use tactical nukes to take out Chinese suppy sites along the North Korea border. And then you had stuff that looks crazy to us today like the Honest John and atomic artillery shell.  

Bish

 

 

Moff

 

Bish

 

 

modelcrazy

 

Bish

Was anyone aware of the after effects of the A bomb at the time, as if they were i am sure that could have been another factor.

 

 

I believe they knew some of the after effects, however I don't believe they thought it would be as widespread or long lasting. Looking at some of the testing in the south Pacific shows that we just didn't understand the lasting effect of radiation. I'm not sure however that would have made any difference in the decision. Truman was racing the clock with Russia and he didn't want to lose another several hundred thousand solders.

 

 

 

 

I was just woundering, if there was any idea of the effects, would they have wanted to drop a bomb in the heart of Europe, given that unlike Japan, an island, Germany was surround by American Allies they were meant to be liberating.

 

 

 

 

I was thinking that there may have been something else going on. I don't want to say "racism", but maybe "cultureism" or something. Japan's culture was rather alien, and most Americans didn't understand it. The landmarks and cultural history of Japan were not held in high regard. In the case of Europe however, everyone knew what German culture was, and what it had contributed to European culture  general. I think the decision to drop the Bomb on Germany may have been vetoed on that reason. 

 

 

 

 

 

The issue of racisim has been raised, i'e. the Germans were white the Japanese were not. But the counter to that is the evidance of what was done to German cities with conventional bombs.

 

Moff

 

Bish

 

 

modelcrazy

 

Bish

Was anyone aware of the after effects of the A bomb at the time, as if they were i am sure that could have been another factor.

 

 

I believe they knew some of the after effects, however I don't believe they thought it would be as widespread or long lasting. Looking at some of the testing in the south Pacific shows that we just didn't understand the lasting effect of radiation. I'm not sure however that would have made any difference in the decision. Truman was racing the clock with Russia and he didn't want to lose another several hundred thousand solders.

 

 

 

 

I was just woundering, if there was any idea of the effects, would they have wanted to drop a bomb in the heart of Europe, given that unlike Japan, an island, Germany was surround by American Allies they were meant to be liberating.

 

 

 

 

I was thinking that there may have been something else going on. I don't want to say "racism", but maybe "cultureism" or something. Japan's culture was rather alien, and most Americans didn't understand it. The landmarks and cultural history of Japan were not held in high regard. In the case of Europe however, everyone knew what German culture was, and what it had contributed to European culture  general. I think the decision to drop the Bomb on Germany may have been vetoed on that reason. 

 

 

The issue of racisim has been raised, i'e. the Germans were white the Japanese were not. But the counter to that is the evidance of what was done to German cities with conventional bombs.

Gamera

Well, in what I'd worked out Dr. Robert Oppenheimer had a crisis of conscience about giving the world the most destructive weapon yet and sabotoged the experimental Trinity bomb. With the Mahatten Project a 'failure' the Allies proceeded with Operation Downfall. US/UK/Commonwealth troops poured into the southern Japanese home islands as Stikpusher related and then Soviet troops launched a full scale assault to the north. Later Doctor Edward Teller and other atomic scientists and engineers discovered the truth and Oppenheimer confessed but by now the full scale bloodbath was raging. Some Japanese held out up until the late '40s and Japan ended like Germany and Korea a divided nation.

Bish

 

 

modelcrazy

 

Bish

Was anyone aware of the after effects of the A bomb at the time, as if they were i am sure that could have been another factor.

 

 

I believe they knew some of the after effects, however I don't believe they thought it would be as widespread or long lasting. Looking at some of the testing in the south Pacific shows that we just didn't understand the lasting effect of radiation. I'm not sure however that would have made any difference in the decision. Truman was racing the clock with Russia and he didn't want to lose another several hundred thousand solders.

 

 

 

 

I was just woundering, if there was any idea of the effects, would they have wanted to drop a bomb in the heart of Europe, given that unlike Japan, an island, Germany was surround by American Allies they were meant to be liberating.

 

Well, in what I'd worked out Dr. Robert Oppenheimer had a crisis of conscience about giving the world the most destructive weapon yet and sabotoged the experimental Trinity bomb. With the Mahatten Project a 'failure' the Allies proceeded with Operation Downfall. US/UK/Commonwealth troops poured into the southern Japanese home islands as Stikpusher related and then Soviet troops launched a full scale assault to the north. Later Doctor Edward Teller and other atomic scientists and engineers discovered the truth and Oppenheimer confessed but by now the full scale bloodbath was raging. Some Japanese held out up until the late '40s and Japan ended like Germany and Korea a divided nation.

I'm not totally sure anyone knew too much about the radiation and other lingering effects of the blast, check out the history of the movie ' The Conqueror' (1956) with John Wayne as believe it or not Genghis Khan (?). It was shot in the western American desert near where 11 A-bombs were detonated. Afterward 91 of the 220 cast and crew contracted cancer, by the '80s 46 having died from it. Check it out, interesting story. 

modelcrazy

 

Bish

Was anyone aware of the after effects of the A bomb at the time, as if they were i am sure that could have been another factor.

 

 

I believe they knew some of the after effects, however I don't believe they thought it would be as widespread or long lasting. Looking at some of the testing in the south Pacific shows that we just didn't understand the lasting effect of radiation. I'm not sure however that would have made any difference in the decision. Truman was racing the clock with Russia and he didn't want to lose another several hundred thousand solders.

 

I was just woundering, if there was any idea of the effects, would they have wanted to drop a bomb in the heart of Europe, given that unlike Japan, an island, Germany was surround by American Allies they were meant to be liberating.

Bish

Was anyone aware of the after effects of the A bomb at the time, as if they were i am sure that could have been another factor.

An atomic strike on Germany at the end of WWII would have been a very different proposition. In my view, the primary being there no cities left intact to demonstate the power of a single bomb. Four cities were left intact in Japan for just that purpose, two of which would be hit. Once the Western Allies landed in France, it became apparent that the war there would be over before any bombs would be ready in any case. But had the war in Europe continued to Augusrt of 1945 and beyond, what effect could an Atomic bomb have on an already smashed Berlin, Munich, or other such city? It would have been far more useful in a tactical role of smashing a heavy concentration of German forces. But that would lessen the shock effect upon the general population as opposed to the military leadership.

As far as radiological after effects, only some were known and appreciated at the time. Scientists at the Trinity test were debating weather or not the bomb would work as designed and planned, or if it could possibly even lead to an uncontrolled chain reaction at the worst end of the results spectrum. With those first three bombs, the problems of residual radiation and fallout appeared, but would take many years of study to truly comprehend. Not to mention all teh years of subsequent atmospheric testing first by the US and later by the other nations that attained an Atomic warfare capability.

IIRC, after the German loss at the Battle of Bulge, things were pretty much over for them. They were defending the fatherland with old men and boys and the people were fairly tired of war. True, there were guerilla-type units out there who wanted to keep fighting - the werewolves - but for the most part, the war was pretty much over. The western allies were closing in from one side and the Russians were sweeping in from the east. I think even if Hitler was taken out of his leadership position and a highly competent military leader put in, the war would still be pretty much over within a matter of months.

The war in the pacific is a better and more interesting what-if scenario. Without the use of the atomic bombs, it could have dragged on for quite a while.

Hasn't there been some debate as to whether the bombs would have been dropped on Germany. At first it was thoguht of as a detetrrant. But as it became clear that the Germans were far behind it became a first strike weapon. And i believe early on that japan would be the target. One reason was it was thought if the first bomb failed to explode, the Japanese would be less likely to get any useful information from it.

Was anyone aware of the after effects of the A bomb at the time, as if they were i am sure that could have been another factor.

stikpusher

Also, by 1946, it was projected that even after the Trinity bomb and the two dropped on Japan in August, up to 15 more could have been ready for "tactical use" during Operation Coronet. 

Yikes, we cut it close enough during the Cold War with just the examples of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Had Germany not yet been defeated by August 1945, the Bombs dropped on Japan would have been used there instead. Also, by 1946, it was projected that even after the Trinity bomb and the two dropped on Japan in August, up to 15 more could have been ready for "tactical use" during Operation Coronet. 

Regarding the Soviet angle, the Japanese were looking at putting out peace feelers thru the Soviets towards the Western Allies. The Soviets, knowing they were about to enter the war in the Pacific, were ambivilant towards these overtures, letting them sit in limbo and not forwarding them to the West. Once they entered the war, the Japanese realized that option was gone. Regardless of the War Council's views, it Hirohito who made the decision to surrender, and the prime motivation being that of the bomb. Soviet actions were a contributing factor, but not so much the causal factor. At least that is how I read it in John Toland's two volume work, "The Rising Sun". 

modelcrazy

I just finished watching "Seconds from Disaster, Nagasaki - The Forgotten Bomb" where the premises was that neither of the Atomic bombs were of any relevance to the Japanese war council. It wasn’t until the Soviets declared war that the Japanese decided to surrender. According to the documentary, the Japanese felt the western lifestyle was more compatible with their way of life than Communism.
So if that were the case, if Germany did not fall, then it would seem, according to this documentary anyway, that neither would the Japanese. And since the US was completely out of A bombs….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLwdDXW--fw

Intresting watch.

 

I just finished watching "Seconds from Disaster, Nagasaki - The Forgotten Bomb" where the premises was that neither of the Atomic bombs were of any relevance to the Japanese war council. It wasn’t until the Soviets declared war that the Japanese decided to surrender. According to the documentary, the Japanese felt the western lifestyle was more compatible with their way of life than Communism.
So if that were the case, if Germany did not fall, then it would seem, according to this documentary anyway, that neither would the Japanese. And since the US was completely out of A bombs….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLwdDXW--fw

Intresting watch.

Bish

 

 

hogfanfs

My What if is not complicated, but, I would say kind of big. What if Truman decided not to drop the atomic bombs, and instead pushed forward with an American invasion of the Japanese mainland. I would expect the Japanese to utilize every avaialble resouce to defend. So tanks like the Type 4 and 5 would have been pushed into service.

 

 

 

 

I think out of the two main theathers of the war, this is mor realistic than any that keep Germany fighting. I believe the invasion was planned for 46, so i would guess those new types would hav ebeen ready by then.

 

There were two invasions of Japan planned to take Japan out of the war after Okinawa. Operation Olympic, the invasion of the Southernmost main island of Kyushu was slated for November 1, 1945. The entire island was not to be captured, just a portion to provide staging areas and air bases for the final battle of the next invasion of Japan, planned for Spring 1946. Operation Coronet, the invasion of the main island of Honshu, was to have taken place on or after March 1, 1946 with a landing south of Tokyo.

Thankfully for the men slated to take part in those planned campaigns, as well as the Japanese who would have fought them or who lived in those areas, those battles did not come to pass. Each invasion would have been larger than the Normandy Invasion in size, and most likely would have involved battles even more ferocious than Iwo Jima or Okinawa.

Bish

 

 

hogfanfs

My What if is not complicated, but, I would say kind of big. What if Truman decided not to drop the atomic bombs, and instead pushed forward with an American invasion of the Japanese mainland. I would expect the Japanese to utilize every avaialble resouce to defend. So tanks like the Type 4 and 5 would have been pushed into service.

 

 

 

 

I think out of the two main theathers of the war, this is mor realistic than any that keep Germany fighting. I believe the invasion was planned for 46, so i would guess those new types would hav ebeen ready by then.

 

P.S. Could someone please scratchbuild an Amerika Rakete? Please? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggregate_(rocket_family)

hogfanfs

My What if is not complicated, but, I would say kind of big. What if Truman decided not to drop the atomic bombs, and instead pushed forward with an American invasion of the Japanese mainland. I would expect the Japanese to utilize every avaialble resouce to defend. So tanks like the Type 4 and 5 would have been pushed into service.

 

I think out of the two main theathers of the war, this is mor realistic than any that keep Germany fighting. I believe the invasion was planned for 46, so i would guess those new types would hav ebeen ready by then.

My What if is not complicated, but, I would say kind of big. What if Truman decided not to drop the atomic bombs, and instead pushed forward with an American invasion of the Japanese mainland. I would expect the Japanese to utilize every avaialble resouce to defend. So tanks like the Type 4 and 5 would have been pushed into service.

Bish

Moff, good question. Despite being a big fan of German what if builds, I have not given it a lot of thought. Of course, my builds require that Germany is still in the war. I think as far as I have got is that the German were successful in the Ardennes in late 44 and were then able to halt the SU. I have not really gone much beyond that, but maybe I should.

 

jgeratic

Moff, it's a very good question, and I think anyone considering a whif build can't avoid putting some thought towards it. 

My approach isn't too complicated.  The war has continued into 1946, but the end is not in doubt.  The extra year or so allows more experimental types to see service, as well as more units receiving better upgrades.

regards,

Jack

 

P.S. Could someone please scratchbuild an Amerika Rakete? Please? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggregate_(rocket_family)

silentbob33

I've been looking in on this and the 1945 GB. I was hoping to have enough time to build an F-5E for the '45 GB, but life gets in the way and that won't happen. I'm hoping that I'll have enough time to get something together for this one though. I would love to get my hands on another F-80 and build it as a P-80A, but time will have to tell.

 

Pity you could not make 45, but would be great to have you in 46.

cdr6

Sound like fun.. Stretch the old imagination abit. The build I would like to do is an early P-80A, based on two of the four which made it into the ETO, before war's end. (Two more went to the MTO). Paint and markings to match existing fighter group. Scale 1/48, Kit mfgr Monogram/Revell.

 

Welcome aboard. I was hoping we would get a P-80, now we have two.

I take it this is your first GB, at least on this forum. Nice to see you diving right in, if you have any questions, please ask.

And be sure to check out page 2 and caste your vote.

Moff, it's a very good question, and I think anyone considering a whif build can't avoid putting some thought towards it. 

My approach isn't too complicated.  The war has continued into 1946, but the end is not in doubt.  The extra year or so allows more experimental types to see service, as well as more units receiving better upgrades.

regards,

Jack

Bish, I don't know if this is too off-topic, but I was wondering what other people have in their minds as far as the alternate history for 1946. What do you think the war situation looks like in 1946? 

In my '46, the Germans are making a comeback, while the Japanese are still on the defensive for the most part. I think Berlin fell and Hitler died, but somehow things held together (maybe Himmler was given the ok to build the Alpine Redoubt in 1943?). Probably either Dönitz or Himmler is now in charge. Most of the moderate "honorable warrior" Wehrmacht types have by now deserted or surrendered, and it's just the die-hards left. In addition to SS regulars and a few Wehrmacht groups, maybe Himmler's Werwolf guerilla movement caught on more than it did IRL. As far as the Japanese...I don't know. I'd say the pressure would be off of them a bit, as the Allies continue to focus on Germany. They're probably able to hold their own, but I don't think they are making any startling rebounds. Maybe the A-Bombs would be dropped on Germany? As you can tell, my vision of '46 requires Himmler to really have Hitler's ear more than he did