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1946 What If GB

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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Friday, November 20, 2015 4:39 PM

modelcrazy
 
Bish
Was anyone aware of the after effects of the A bomb at the time, as if they were i am sure that could have been another factor.

 

I believe they knew some of the after effects, however I don't believe they thought it would be as widespread or long lasting. Looking at some of the testing in the south Pacific shows that we just didn't understand the lasting effect of radiation. I'm not sure however that would have made any difference in the decision. Truman was racing the clock with Russia and he didn't want to lose another several hundred thousand solders.
 

I was just woundering, if there was any idea of the effects, would they have wanted to drop a bomb in the heart of Europe, given that unlike Japan, an island, Germany was surround by American Allies they were meant to be liberating.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Friday, November 20, 2015 6:17 PM

Well, in what I'd worked out Dr. Robert Oppenheimer had a crisis of conscience about giving the world the most destructive weapon yet and sabotoged the experimental Trinity bomb. With the Mahatten Project a 'failure' the Allies proceeded with Operation Downfall. US/UK/Commonwealth troops poured into the southern Japanese home islands as Stikpusher related and then Soviet troops launched a full scale assault to the north. Later Doctor Edward Teller and other atomic scientists and engineers discovered the truth and Oppenheimer confessed but by now the full scale bloodbath was raging. Some Japanese held out up until the late '40s and Japan ended like Germany and Korea a divided nation.

I'm not totally sure anyone knew too much about the radiation and other lingering effects of the blast, check out the history of the movie ' The Conqueror' (1956) with John Wayne as believe it or not Genghis Khan (?). It was shot in the western American desert near where 11 A-bombs were detonated. Afterward 91 of the 220 cast and crew contracted cancer, by the '80s 46 having died from it. Check it out, interesting story. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:56 AM

Bish

 

 
modelcrazy
 
Bish
Was anyone aware of the after effects of the A bomb at the time, as if they were i am sure that could have been another factor.

 

I believe they knew some of the after effects, however I don't believe they thought it would be as widespread or long lasting. Looking at some of the testing in the south Pacific shows that we just didn't understand the lasting effect of radiation. I'm not sure however that would have made any difference in the decision. Truman was racing the clock with Russia and he didn't want to lose another several hundred thousand solders.
 

 

 

I was just woundering, if there was any idea of the effects, would they have wanted to drop a bomb in the heart of Europe, given that unlike Japan, an island, Germany was surround by American Allies they were meant to be liberating.

 

I was thinking that there may have been something else going on. I don't want to say "racism", but maybe "cultureism" or something. Japan's culture was rather alien, and most Americans didn't understand it. The landmarks and cultural history of Japan were not held in high regard. In the case of Europe however, everyone knew what German culture was, and what it had contributed to European culture  general. I think the decision to drop the Bomb on Germany may have been vetoed on that reason. 

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:58 AM

Gamera

Well, in what I'd worked out Dr. Robert Oppenheimer had a crisis of conscience about giving the world the most destructive weapon yet and sabotoged the experimental Trinity bomb. With the Mahatten Project a 'failure' the Allies proceeded with Operation Downfall. US/UK/Commonwealth troops poured into the southern Japanese home islands as Stikpusher related and then Soviet troops launched a full scale assault to the north. Later Doctor Edward Teller and other atomic scientists and engineers discovered the truth and Oppenheimer confessed but by now the full scale bloodbath was raging. Some Japanese held out up until the late '40s and Japan ended like Germany and Korea a divided nation.

Great what if, my favorite yet I think.

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Saturday, November 21, 2015 8:02 AM

Moff
 
Bish

 

 
modelcrazy
 
Bish
Was anyone aware of the after effects of the A bomb at the time, as if they were i am sure that could have been another factor.

 

I believe they knew some of the after effects, however I don't believe they thought it would be as widespread or long lasting. Looking at some of the testing in the south Pacific shows that we just didn't understand the lasting effect of radiation. I'm not sure however that would have made any difference in the decision. Truman was racing the clock with Russia and he didn't want to lose another several hundred thousand solders.
 

 

 

I was just woundering, if there was any idea of the effects, would they have wanted to drop a bomb in the heart of Europe, given that unlike Japan, an island, Germany was surround by American Allies they were meant to be liberating.

 

 

 

I was thinking that there may have been something else going on. I don't want to say "racism", but maybe "cultureism" or something. Japan's culture was rather alien, and most Americans didn't understand it. The landmarks and cultural history of Japan were not held in high regard. In the case of Europe however, everyone knew what German culture was, and what it had contributed to European culture  general. I think the decision to drop the Bomb on Germany may have been vetoed on that reason. 

 

 

The issue of racisim has been raised, i'e. the Germans were white the Japanese were not. But the counter to that is the evidance of what was done to German cities with conventional bombs.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Saturday, November 21, 2015 8:28 AM

Bish

 

 
Moff
 
Bish

 

 
modelcrazy
 
Bish
Was anyone aware of the after effects of the A bomb at the time, as if they were i am sure that could have been another factor.

 

I believe they knew some of the after effects, however I don't believe they thought it would be as widespread or long lasting. Looking at some of the testing in the south Pacific shows that we just didn't understand the lasting effect of radiation. I'm not sure however that would have made any difference in the decision. Truman was racing the clock with Russia and he didn't want to lose another several hundred thousand solders.
 

 

 

I was just woundering, if there was any idea of the effects, would they have wanted to drop a bomb in the heart of Europe, given that unlike Japan, an island, Germany was surround by American Allies they were meant to be liberating.

 

 

 

I was thinking that there may have been something else going on. I don't want to say "racism", but maybe "cultureism" or something. Japan's culture was rather alien, and most Americans didn't understand it. The landmarks and cultural history of Japan were not held in high regard. In the case of Europe however, everyone knew what German culture was, and what it had contributed to European culture  general. I think the decision to drop the Bomb on Germany may have been vetoed on that reason. 

 

 

 

 

The issue of racisim has been raised, i'e. the Germans were white the Japanese were not. But the counter to that is the evidance of what was done to German cities with conventional bombs.

 

I meant more that the Allies should think twice before decimating a lot of their cultural heritage. But, as you said, they did still bomb German cities to the ground regardless.

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Saturday, November 21, 2015 8:42 AM

Hey Moff there was probably some racism there but I think it was more the attitude of the respective foes. Germans and Italians with the exception of some fanatic SS types would surrender if forced into a hopeless position. The Japanese didn't, someone once commented that Japanese POW was almost a counterdiction in terms. Besides the Kamikaze Japanese infantry textbooks stated that troops pinned down in a hopeless situation should launch Banzai attacks- aka charge into the enemy trying to take out as many as possible before being killed. 'Surrendering' Japanese would walk up to Allied troops with a grenade or demo charge hidden in their clothing and then charge into a crowd before detonating themselvies. Basically the whole mindset was so alien to Westerners that that it created most of the problems.

I'm not sure the A-bomb wouldn't have been used on Germany. The UK had been at war for six long years and the US wanted the whole mess over so I not sure any 'quick, cheap, & dirty' method to end the war would have been rejected. Heck, in Korea seroius plans were made to use tactical nukes to take out Chinese suppy sites along the North Korea border. And then you had stuff that looks crazy to us today like the Honest John and atomic artillery shell.  

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    July 2014
Posted by modelcrazy on Saturday, November 21, 2015 9:05 AM

Gamera
a grenade or demo charge hidden in their clothing and then charge into a crowd before detonating themselvies. Basically the whole mindset was so alien to Westerners that that it created most of the problems.

And it still is alien to us today.

I was watching another documentary, again on YouTube. "Greatest Tank Battles" in the Pacific, and it showed, I don't remember which battle, 100's of Japanese medium tanks running a Banzai charge against Sherman’s. I looked like Sherman’s against Tigers. The Sherman’s were just wiping them out and shells were bouncing off the Sherman's armor.

 

I also listen to Old Time Radio on XM, and a few months back I was listing to a comedy show, I don’t remember which one (not Jack Benny, he was too honorable for this), but a question was asked of someone who had recently returned from Hiroshima about what the city looked like. This guy went on to explain the destruction he saw in a comedic way, and this caused laughing in the audience! I was so ashamed of this. I guess I had to live through that time, to have so much anger and hate to find destruction like that funny.

Steve

Building a kit from your stash is like cutting a head off a Hydra, two more take it's place.

 

 

http://www.spamodeler.com/forum/

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:31 AM

Very true Steve, we were told to avoid politics so I wasn't sure if I should say anything about modern suicide bombers or not. 

I'll have to look up that 'Greatest Tank Battles' clip. I remember reading somewhere about the Japanese strapping bombs to the front of some of their tanks and ramming Shermans. 

There is a recreation of the battle of Kalkin-Gol/Nomonhan in the Korean movie 'My Way'. Our hero a is Korean drafted and sent to fight in China and ends up in this battle. Here Japanese troops pushed into Mongolia which was held by the USSR at the time and basically got curb stomped by Marshal Zhukov starting his rise to fame. Not too accurate but it does show an interesting scene of Japanese trucks loaded with explosives ramming BT-5 light tanks.

Link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuUR95-o_fw

 

Pretty crazy about the radio clip, though I guess it's not too different from when I watch some old movie where some black comic is treated in a way that makes me go 'Oh my gawd!?!?!' Indifferent

PS: Is the embed feature broken? I've tried posting movie clips a few times here and they never seem to work. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Saturday, November 21, 2015 12:12 PM

Gamera

Hey Moff there was probably some racism there but I think it was more the attitude of the respective foes. Germans and Italians with the exception of some fanatic SS types would surrender if forced into a hopeless position. The Japanese didn't, someone once commented that Japanese POW was almost a counterdiction in terms.

 

Which is also why a lot of the Japanese POW atrocities happened. The Americans thought it was cruel and inhumane to mistreat POWs. The Japanese thought it was evil and morally reprehensible to surrender. Definitely a culture clash there.

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Saturday, November 21, 2015 12:20 PM

modelcrazy

 

I also listen to Old Time Radio on XM, and a few months back I was listing to a comedy show, I don’t remember which one (not Jack Benny, he was too honorable for this), but a question was asked of someone who had recently returned from Hiroshima about what the city looked like. This guy went on to explain the destruction he saw in a comedic way, and this caused laughing in the audience! I was so ashamed of this. I guess I had to live through that time, to have so much anger and hate to find destruction like that funny.

 

Nasty stuff...I know that for me, I often forget just how horrible war is. 

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Saturday, November 21, 2015 12:22 PM

modelcrazy

I was watching another documentary, again on YouTube. 

 

 

That's what I do all the time while scale modelling!

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Saturday, November 21, 2015 12:31 PM

Gamera

There is a recreation of the battle of Kalkin-Gol/Nomonhan in the Korean movie 'My Way'. Our hero a is Korean drafted and sent to fight in China and ends up in this battle. Here Japanese troops pushed into Mongolia which was held by the USSR at the time and basically got curb stomped by Marshal Zhukov starting his rise to fame. Not too accurate but it does show an interesting scene of Japanese trucks loaded with explosives ramming BT-5 light tanks.

Link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuUR95-o_fw

 

Yeah, it does not look accurate lol...a pre-war Japanese column of soldiers, at the height of their power, with like 30 guys with kamikaze bandanas marching up front. It just looks fake. Kamikaze was an tactic of desperation decided upon in 1943-'44, right? Still, cool clip.

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:28 PM

Lol, I loved the Russians driving around in tanks with half their bodies sticking out the hatches. I mean what's the point of having a tank if you're not getting inside the thing when the bullets start flying- but if they did the Japanese officer couldn't climb up on a tank and stab the Soviet tank commander with his katana... Whistling

Funny, the same director did two movies about the Korean War, 'Brotherhood of War' and 'Frontline' that seem pretty accurate. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    November 2015
Posted by JayW on Saturday, November 21, 2015 8:50 PM

Never done one of these and am not 100% sure on the rules.

 

Would the VK 1602 Leopard be acceptable?

Currentely Building: 1/35 Ford Quad FAT + QF25,

In queue: 1/35 Hobby Boss VK1602, 1/400 HMS Illustrious, 1/700 HMS Broadsword

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Sunday, November 22, 2015 4:10 PM

Gamera

Funny, the same director did two movies about the Korean War, 'Brotherhood of War' and 'Frontline' that seem pretty accurate. 

 

Wikipedia says that "After a 7-year hiatus, in 2011 Kang unveiled his film My Way, set during World War II with a star-studded pan-Asian cast and the highest budget to date for a Korean film". 

He probably threw in the towel on "accurate filmmaking" after the rivet counters started circling. But you know what happens to accuracy when a film has a "high budget" and a "star-studded" cast...Confused

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Sunday, November 22, 2015 4:18 PM

JayW

Never done one of these and am not 100% sure on the rules.

 

Would the VK 1602 Leopard be acceptable?

 

Under the rules that any design cancelled before the war ended counts, this one sure does. Which kit do you have in mind, Hobby Boss or Amusing Hobby.

The rules are on page one, but they are pretty basic. Your kit is good, other than that, no building until 1st jan and post progress pics as you go. Anything else, just ask. And be sure to check page 2 and have your vote.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    November 2015
Posted by JayW on Sunday, November 22, 2015 4:40 PM

Yeah i figured it would work under that provision but didnt want to take any chances.

 

I am leaning towards the  Hobby Boss kit, the reviews seem favorable, espeically the one on FSM.

Currentely Building: 1/35 Ford Quad FAT + QF25,

In queue: 1/35 Hobby Boss VK1602, 1/400 HMS Illustrious, 1/700 HMS Broadsword

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Monday, November 23, 2015 11:37 AM

Moff

 

 
Gamera

Funny, the same director did two movies about the Korean War, 'Brotherhood of War' and 'Frontline' that seem pretty accurate. 

 

 

 

Wikipedia says that "After a 7-year hiatus, in 2011 Kang unveiled his film My Way, set during World War II with a star-studded pan-Asian cast and the highest budget to date for a Korean film". 

 

He probably threw in the towel on "accurate filmmaking" after the rivet counters started circling. But you know what happens to accuracy when a film has a "high budget" and a "star-studded" cast...Confused

 

Yeap, I think you just hit the nail right on the head there Big Smile

 

JayW: Sounds pretty darn cool to me! 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Monday, November 23, 2015 11:40 AM

JayW

Yeah i figured it would work under that provision but didnt want to take any chances.

 

I am leaning towards the  Hobby Boss kit, the reviews seem favorable, espeically the one on FSM.

 

I have seen a few Hobby Boss kits built on here and they always look nice. But from what i have seen from the two Amusing Hobby kits i have and reviews i have read, i think, they have a good pedegree as well. I don't think you can go wrong with either.

Let me know which you decide and i can add it to the roster. 

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    November 2015
Posted by JayW on Monday, November 23, 2015 1:21 PM

I just ordered the Hobby Boss kit.

 

Speaking of which, I just noticed there was a Trumpeter Set of AM tracks for it, any idea if they are an improvement or not? 

Currentely Building: 1/35 Ford Quad FAT + QF25,

In queue: 1/35 Hobby Boss VK1602, 1/400 HMS Illustrious, 1/700 HMS Broadsword

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Monday, November 23, 2015 1:28 PM
I'll add you to the list, welcome aboard. As for the tracks, it depends on your preference and what the kit comes with. If the kit tracks are rubber band type and the Trump ones individual, I would personally go for the latter.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Monday, November 23, 2015 1:34 PM

Jay, I found some reviews on both the kit and Trump tracks. Personally, I would not bother. Both are individual links with separate guide horns. This review did not rate the Trump tracks.

http://www.track-link.com/reviews/2186

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    November 2015
Posted by JayW on Monday, November 23, 2015 3:45 PM
Thanks Bish, I think ill stay with the kit tracks since i am going to be buying a PE set. A company named voyager (i've never heard of them prior) and they offer a set for the Hobby Boss, and another for the Amusing. Now, the Amusing version is looks much more extensive and full, am i correct to assume that it would not fit the hobby boss version. Also (sorry for all the questions but when i get into something, i really get into it) these were for sale on luckymodel.com, are they reputable?

Currentely Building: 1/35 Ford Quad FAT + QF25,

In queue: 1/35 Hobby Boss VK1602, 1/400 HMS Illustrious, 1/700 HMS Broadsword

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Monday, November 23, 2015 4:08 PM
A word of caution on Voyager. I use a lot of PE, and there sets are not the easiest to use. I bought quite a few before I used one and I have found them to be the trickiest of all the PE brands I use. But that is just my opinion. I was going to get the set for the Amusing Hobby Lowe, but once I got the kit decided it didn't need it. I would wait until you get the kit before deciding if you even need it, I have learnt that lesson the hard, and expensive way. But, if you do decide to get it, I would get the one designed for the kit. If the other one is more extensive, then its probably because it needs to be. I don't use that online store myself as I am in the UK, but I believe they are one of the good ones.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

GAF
  • Member since
    June 2012
  • From: Anniston, AL
Posted by GAF on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 6:38 AM

Here's another WTH list of possible 1946 subjects:  Jet aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_jet_aircraft

The Ryan Fireball?  Wonder if I could put code letters "XL5" on the side?

And, if I did so, would it have to be in British markings?  Wink

Gary

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 7:22 AM

Nice list GAF. I always wondered at the name 'Fireball' myself. Considering how dangerous early jets were wasn't that kinda like naming a car 'Crash and Burn' or a submarine 'Sinker'? 

I ordered from Lucky Model once. They are out of Hong Kong I believe and I have no big issues with them. But I don't think they have any of the stuff in stock, instead ordering it from the factory or distributer when you order it. Therefore you'll have to wait a bit for them to get it. And in some cases, well I ended up waiting over a month for my order since they were having issues with getting one resin figure in. And I didn't see any option simply to cancel the figure and have them send the order. If you're not in a hurry it's a fine company to deal with but I've found I can generally get the same things from other companies as well. 

And the Voyager PE, I've picked up a set by them and it's extensive- way more than Eduard. I haven't had the guts to try the stuff yet. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    November 2015
Posted by JayW on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 7:52 AM
Thanks Gam, Yeah they listed the PE I'm after as 1-2 weeks backorder but since I can't even find it on ebay or any other site I've been using, I may just order it from them.

Currentely Building: 1/35 Ford Quad FAT + QF25,

In queue: 1/35 Hobby Boss VK1602, 1/400 HMS Illustrious, 1/700 HMS Broadsword

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 12:19 PM

Gamera

And the Voyager PE, I've picked up a set by them and it's extensive- way more than Eduard. 

 

Interesting. Does anyone know what ET Model photoetch is like? 

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 5:06 PM
Afraid that's a new brand on me Moff.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

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