Jack, I can tell by the uniform of the American officer, on the right in your photograph it is 20 June 1941 or later. His shoulder patch (badge) is that of the newly formed US Army Air Force. Prior to June 1941 the US Army Air Corps (predecessor of USAAF) patch had a white star on a black field with a red circle in the middle of the star.

The aircraft I am modeling is serial number P7966 flown by Douglas Bader, Commanding Officer of the Tangmere Wing from 18 March 1941 until he crashed on 9 August 1941. There were three Squadron in the Tangmere Wing while Douglas Bader was in command. I think they were 131, 602 and 616 Squadrons.

https://www.tangmere-museum.org.uk/artefact-month/douglas-baders-fateful-day-9-august-1941

Jack, you have the mind of a detective. Thank you for solid historical investigation.

Harold

Harold, nice spot on the shoulder patch to date the photo.  Thanks for the compliment, but am not that much of a detective, just that I have visited these 'rabbit holes' before and know/remember where to look. 

Here's a shot of a 616 Sqn mount during winter of 1941.  One thing seems to be is the forward fuselage where the engine is located tends to always have a hard edge, literally right along the panel line (mind you it could be field maintenance repaint):

As an aside, it's quite likely wing leading edges would receive touch ups to paint over chipping from the prop throwing up debris.

regards,

Jack

I agree with you Jack. I did not find any closeup original photographs of Squadron 131, 602, or 616; however, I did find clear evidence of both sharp demarcation lines, soft camouflage lines, minimal overspray and heavy operational paint wear. I think my choice will be to sharpen the demarcation lines a little on the wings and continue with softer camouflage lines between the Dark Earth Brown and Dark Green colours.

In photograph No. 1 of an early version Spitfire that was force down by the Germans it clearly shows hard (sharp) edges along demarcation lines on the wings and engine panel. In photograph No. 2 some lines are hard and others along the wings appear to be softer. In No. 3 there is a little overspray on the engine panel, and the wings appear to be soft edges. In No. 4 the paint is worn very badly an indication of many operational hours with little time for repainting.

Photo No. 1

Photo No. 2

Photo No. 3

Photo No. 4

Photo no.4 depending on the date, may have had the b/w invasion stripes applied in the field by brush.  This was hastily applied the night before D-Day, but yes, operational use would further create the worn look.  Also, later on in the European campaign, the top portions of the stripes were removed by painting over them.

regards,

Jack

jgeratic

Photo no.4 depending on the date, may have had the b/w invasion stripes applied in the field by brush.  This was hastily applied the night before D-Day, but yes, operational use would further create the worn look.  Also, later on in the European campaign, the top portions of the stripes were removed by painting over them.

regards,

Jack

 

How were British airplanes repainted while in operational squadrons? Did the RAF have maintenance centers with paint spraying equipment, or was it all done in open fields by the squadron ground crew with paint brushes?

Harold

That is correct about the invasion stripes.  The Allies had pretty much air superiority from the start, so it was more important to reveal their identity quickly to avoid friendly fire.

As I understand it, maintenance units would have the spray guns, and they would be responsible for a number of squadrons in the area. 

At squadron level, they too would have paints, but am not sure if the erks were trained for spraying paint, just hand brush?  Paints here were likely  just for touch ups on minor repairs, as well as applying new codes on replacement aircraft, either direct from the factory or from a different squadron.

regards,

Jack

Looks great Harold! 

I'd only heard about the matts being used to mask off the camo with a hard edge. This is interesting, I don't know about the rest. 

Gamera

Looks great Harold! 

I'd only heard about the matts being used to mask off the camo with a hard edge. This is interesting, I don't know about the rest. 

 

I pushed the limits a bit to see what would happen. The liquid mask is supposed to have 30-minutes to cure, but I only gave it 15-minutes. I intentionally airbrushed a single heavy coat of paint to see if it created unsightly edges and it didn't, but I will use two light coats of Dark Green instead of one heavy coat. The Dark Green is a mix of 8-parts Vallejo #71.325 IJN Dk. Black Green, 1-part 71.324 BS Dark Green with 4-parts 71.323 BS Dark Earth.

Harold

Not quite what I had expected... I wanted a 50% - 50% coverage of Dark Earth Brown and Dark Green, but it's more like 70%-30% because I miscalculated the thickness of the masking putty.

Before I do any more with this model I have decided to build the second spitfire that came in my kit. It will have the same camouflage paint colours but the exterior has a few different features, most noticeably the two cannons on the wing. This will give me a chance to adjust the camouflage pattern to approach 50% - 50% Dark Earth Brown and Dark Green.

The decals I plan to use are for a Mk. IIb, Serial No. P8385 flow by F/O Miroslaw Feric, No. 303 (Polish) Squadron, RAF Northolt, Great Britain, May - June 1941. The cockpit is already to go, so I can concentrate on the exterior assembly and painting.

Harold

Harold: It shouldn't be too hard to remask and spray on some more dark green. If it'd went the other way and you'd gotten too much green it'd been harder to spray more brown on over the darker green. 

One of the members here has a web page where you can download spitfire masks:

http://www.yolo.net/~jeaton/mymodels/spitfire/templates/SpitTemp.html

Maybe print them out on paper, cut out the required shapes, and then apply the rolled putty masks along the edges?

regards,

Jack

jgeratic

One of the members here has a web page where you can download spitfire masks:

http://www.yolo.net/~jeaton/mymodels/spitfire/templates/SpitTemp.html

 

Maybe print them out on paper, cut out the required shapes, and then apply the rolled putty masks along the edges?

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Thank you for your encouragement.

Harold

Well Cliff and Jack I made some progress. I was able to lightly sand with 1,000 grit sandpaper along the dark green edges to feather them into the dark brown. It was a good thing I had only two lights coats of paint on the model.

Then I gave the entire model two light coats of grey surface primer, so I could see if the dark green lines were going to show. It needed a little more sanding and then I gave it three light coats of dark earth brown.

The camouflage preparation step is where I need a little help. I understand how the paper camouflage masks I downloaded are to be used, but I'm not clear on whether I place the masking putty along the edges of the paper masks and then add liquid masking on top of the paper masks or just use the paper masks without liquid masking to protect the dark brown?

I need to give the new brown paint job at least 24 hours before I start the camouflage work, so I will wait to hear from you guys before I start masking.

Harold

Hello Harold, I would use rolls of putty on the undersides of the paper mask edges - assuming it is sticky enough? 

Now, because the putty spreads when pressed on the model surface, that is something that requires looking at.  Either use really thin 'worms' of rolled putty, or you may have to trim back the edges of the paper mask beforehand to make up for this.

Another detail to look at is the camouflage patttern itself.  Eduard seems to have gone with a 'B' pattern, with some alterations.  I'm seeing 'A' pattern, which would be the mirror image of those paper masks.  Only a few period photos I can find of Bader's P7966.  Note how the rudder pattern does not match up at all with either pattern - possibly a repaint from repairs??

regards,

Jack

jgeratic

Hello Harold, I would use rolls of putty on the undersides of the paper mask edges - assuming it is sticky enough? 

Now, because the putty spreads when pressed on the model surface, that is something that requires looking at.  Either use really thin 'worms' of rolled putty, or you may have to trim back the edges of the paper mask beforehand to make up for this.

Another detail to look at is the camouflage patttern itself.  Eduard seems to have gone with a 'B' pattern, with some alterations.  I'm seeing 'A' pattern, which would be the mirror image of those paper masks.  Only a few period photos I can find of Bader's P7966.  Note how the rudder pattern does not match up at all with either pattern - possibly a repaint from repairs??

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Regarding how to apply the masking putty I have learned that 1/8" diameter rolls (worms) work pretty good. 1/4" is what I used the first time and it takes up to much space. 1/16" is good, but hard to control. So if I use 1/8" I can cut the paper mask back an 1/8" on all sides except the leading edge of the wing and I should be close to the original size of the paper mask. I will test my theory before I do anymore painting on the model.

I also learned a very interesting fact about masking putty. If I press the masking putty down just enough to make it stick to the painted surface and hold my air brush at right angles to the surface I am painting I get a 'soft line' between the green and brown. On the other hand if I hold the air brush so I can get paint under the curve, or radius of the rolled masking putty the line is usually much sharper. In most of the Spitfire photographs I have seen the line between green and brown camouflage patterns is soft. I will need to experiment to see how right angle air bushing compares with the size and shape of the masks.

Harold

Harold, sounds like you are good to go.  Yes, airbrush angle combined with masking height will determine the overspray width.

regards,

Jack

Harold: I think Jack already covered everything so I'll just say DITTO here...

Only thing I'd add is I'd never spray toward a mask on purpose. You're better off spraying away from it or at a 90 degree angle. I sometimes end up spraying into a mask by accident- and then I get paint being driven under the mask by the air pressure. 

Gamera

Harold: I think Jack already covered everything so I'll just say DITTO here...

Only thing I'd add is I'd never spray toward a mask on purpose. You're better off spraying away from it or at a 90 degree angle. I sometimes end up spraying into a mask by accident- and then I get paint being driven under the mask by the air pressure. 

 

Sorry i haven't commented guys but there's not really anything i can add to this. Some great info shareing here about schemes which i think often get overlooked.

I've come to the conclusion that A or B patterns  matching odd or even serial is a minefield, and I recall reading that that was the initial plan but it soon became random, and the A pattern was more prevalent.  Just have to go with the photos, as usual.

jeaton01

I've come to the conclusion that A or B patterns  matching odd or even serial is a minefield, and I recall reading that that was the initial plan but it soon became random, and the A pattern was more prevalent.  Just have to go with the photos, as usual.

 

Harold

jgeratic

Harold, sounds like you are good to go.  Yes, airbrush angle combined with masking height will determine the overspray width.

 

regards,

Jack

 

Next, I turn the mask over, so the paper is facing up and use a flat putty knife to press down slightly on the paper mask. Putty pushes out around the edges of the paper mask and through the rectangular cutouts. The putty at this point is only slightly thinner than 1/8". Then with a new #11 hobby knife blade I carefully trim the excess putty as close as I can without cutting the paper mask.

The paper mask with putty is ready to apply paper side down to the model. The paper acts like a carrier holding the shape of the putty, so when I am applying it to the surface of the model only the edges and cutouts stick to the surface. I use a wooden stick to reshape any putty that gets out of line. If I need too, I can remove the paper mask and start over without damaging the painted surface or the paper mask.

As you can see below, I was able to hold my dimensions and create a reasonably soft line between the blue and white colours. Of course, using this method successfully on the model will determining the merits of my procedure.

Harold

Looks good.  I like the idea of trimming the putty while on the paper masks.  Wonder if scissors could cut the putty, or too tacky?

regards,

Jack

jgeratic

Looks good.  I like the idea of trimming the putty while on the paper masks.  Wonder if scissors could cut the putty, or too tacky?

 

regards,

Jack

 

The masking putty I like to use is AK Camouflage Plastic Putty for Airbrushing. I leave it in a sealed zip-lock bag over night and it shelf-levels to pancake shape about 1/4" to 3/8" thick as you can see in my little 3-minute demonstration video.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/164748493@N04/51725195317/in/datetaken/

Just a remonder, the GB has just under 4 weeks to run. But as always, as lng as your entry is on the front page, please feel free to continue to post your builds after the 31st Dec. I don't want anyone to rush to meet a dealine.

Harold: That sounds good! 

I painted the prop this evening. And got the canopy masked. I'm hoping to be done by the end of the year. 

Harold it looks like you have recovered nicely after your first try and seem to making good progress. My usual method is a combination of tape and blue tack but I have been tempted to pick up some of the AK putty so I am really interested to see how this works out.

I find camouflage masking the most frustrating part of a build, but it is so rewarding to see the final result.

JBRaider

Harold it looks like you have recovered nicely after your first try and seem to making good progress. My usual method is a combination of tape and blue tack but I have been tempted to pick up some of the AK putty so I am really interested to see how this works out.

I find camouflage masking the most frustrating part of a build, but it is so rewarding to see the final result.

 

This morning I made a change in the process that seems to work better. Instead of applying the putty to the paper mask, I apply the paper mask to the putty. In other words, I create a flattened bed of putty about an 1/8 of an inch thick, then lay the paper mask on the putty gently press it down and trim off the excess using the paper mask as my template. Please see the last photograph below.

The paper mask in this location was too small for a masking tape cutout, so I created a small flat piece of putty and laid the paper mask on top. It was much easier to fit it to the wing and I could use a stick to touch up around the edges. I don't plan to remove the paper from the putty after painting I will just discard the mask and putty together. In my mind it does not matter if the putty is not exactly the shape or size of the paper mask as long as it looks right and covers the area I am trying to protect.

Harold

Harold, that looks very precise. I've done something similar in the past and I think that'll be good.

Here's an update to my late entry, the Airfix Spitfire 1a. I've also just ordered some decals to do an Australian squadron, perhaps with Ocean grey/Dark green upper surfaces for something a bit different.

Cheers

Tony

Primed and ready for some paint. This was my first time using the Mr Surfacer and I really liked it.

I added white to the centers of the panels and sprayed the underside a light grey, but I lost those pictures.

I then sprayed the top with Vallejo Yellow Ochre and highlited the centers with a little light grey added in.

I then masked off the camo and shot it with a dark blue, highlighted with a little white mixed in as well. The highlights on the blue don't show up well in the picutres but they are there.

I don't know how acurate the colors are but they are spot on compared to the Eduard instruction sheet.