AIRCRAFT - Battle of Britain Group Build (Jan 1st 2005 - May 31st 2005)

QUOTE: Originally posted by tho9900 ... did Roosevelt know of the plans? (pretty much a no from yrs of people reviewing it, but who knows?) did he let them go ahead knowing it is the only thing that could allow him to declare war without losing the will of the people?

I could never understand if people believed Roosevelt had knowledge of the Pearl Harbor prior to the attack why he would not have at least the base go on a higher level of alert. They could have sent warnings of possible Japanese presence in the area and the Japanese attack would still have happened, still give reason to delcare war but not the Navy base would not have to have to suffer such damage and loss.

I think they Roosevelt believed an attack was comming but thought it would be the Philipinnes.

Thanks for the mottling advice Karl, much appreciated.

At a guess I would say that the allies’ decision to invade Italy was probably due to a desire to knock Italy out of the war.

As for the North African campaign, I'm with you in feeling that these battles never get the attention they deserved. This campaign also holds a special interest for me personally as my Grandfather was badly wounded at El Alamein.

Cheers
Darren

Darson, to spray Luftwaffe mottle, you need to thin the paint more than you normally with, the exact ratio is a matter of practise, but I use a roughly 5:1 ratio, with paint being the 1. As for pressue, you need to drop it to around 10 PSI or less. I have found that this works in 1/72, so should be fine for anything bigger.

I always feel that the North African campaigns are underrated, let us not forget that twice as many POWs were taken at Tunis, than at Stalingrad! What I can never understand, is why, with huge amounts of men and material in N.Africa, why didn't the Allies invade Southern France, rather than Italy?

Karl

QUOTE: Originally posted by j.s.harrison Darson looks like you need to be chastised my freindstop critising you work,i've seen your models and they're excellent in fact i was so impressed with your Aussie Mk8 Spitfire that iv'e decided to to the same scheme for next years aussie GB

Thanks Jules, but I wasn't kidding (or trying to be a smart a$$). I have never done any mottling before and it looks like it could be a bit of a challenge.

What I'm thinking of at the moment is thinner than normal paint sprayed at lower than normal pressure, a bit of practice on a scrap fuselage and some luck

Any Luftwaffe painting gurus who have any tips on painting a mottled camo finish would really be appreciated.

Cheers
Darren

I agree, prior to WWI and WWII both, America was sick of international politics, it was a take care of our own and let the rest rot in 'ell attitude. Isolationism is what led to the first WW and the second... if we would have posed as if we would have acted sooner than we did, whether we had intentions to go immediately or not... it may have made a few wait and watch. It is doubtful for long though as the military in America at that time was a shell of a fighting force. Cutting expenses... no need but for enough to protect against north american invasion etc...

The very thing you talked about... America needing something to get into the war like Pearl Harbor is the source of another heated discussion... did Roosevelt know of the plans? (pretty much a no from yrs of people reviewing it, but who knows?) did he let them go ahead knowing it is the only thing that could allow him to declare war without losing the will of the people?

QUOTE: Originally posted by tweety1 Tho9900, in my opinion the US should have joined ALOT sooner, that would have saved millions of lives. Churchhill and DeGaul did meet Roosevelt, but were told no.

No Doubt. But like Tho9900, as far as America was concerned, it was a European matter. I do believe Roosevelt wanted to but he knew Congress and the rest of America wouldn't have it. As it was, when American did join in December '41, troops could not be sent accross the Atlantic until November 1942. America was not geared for war at all.

It really was a matter of Brittain being able to hang on alone until the Japanese brought America into the war. That's why I see the Battle of Brittain as being one of the most important battles of the war (with the Hurricane being the most important aircraft )as well as the North Africa campaign with Montgomery

Strange aint it Jules, you build one model with A/M bits, and all the rest just look vague in appearance.

Tho9900, in my opinion the US should have joined ALOT sooner, that would have saved millions of lives.
Churchhill and DeGaul did meet Roosevelt, but were told no.

But DeGaul got his own back, by kicking the US bases out of France at the peak of the Cold war.
They did not like that and DeGaul didn't care.
Then again, he always was a rude bugger.

On another note, just got a book today from ebay, Flying Colours, this thing is magnificient, covers nearly all of the popular fighters and bombers, a few obscure ones, giving colouring of craft and Sqd numbers etc.
Gotta love ebay!!!!

I know what you mean Jules, even a straight OOB build (for me) includes seatbelts or some other bit of AM kit.

Cheers
Darren

Thanks Tom i'll have to hunt the hobbycraft one down...i'll almost certainly have to replace the MG15's in it as well as adding some seat belts.....
Making a model OOB just doesn't seem to happen anymore for me....Jules...

Tweety: I know where you are coming from, dreadful comparisons... one can hope change can't be too far away...

Jules - HobbyCraft does your Do17 in 1/48... in fact they have one in a Do17E/F config which should match up nice for the BOB. the other one is a M/P versions... that's the only one I could find.. the rest were all Do217's Revell and a few others make em...

Amd I wonder the same about Roosevelt... if the BOB wouldn't have gone the way it did, I think the conservative "We're an ocean away, it's not our business" way of thinking would have held sway... and had not Pearl Harbor been bombed I still wonder what would have happened...

Has anyone seen a game called Enigma: Rising Tide out? It's exactly that scenario... America doesn't enter the World War, Germany captures all of Europe including England. Churchill flees to Canada and sets up a resistance movement, allied with the Japanese who realized too late Germany wasn't going to stop it's eastern movement at Russia... Germany controls Africa and Europe and a good part of Asia. And America tries to counter the threat from both sides.. (the English are pissed at not getting the help they needed)

All in all a decent game with a really odd twist to it.. (post WWII sans-US involvement)

Oh yeah Btw The heroes of Telemark, air dropped over a city the heavy water could have been a very nasty way to win a war.....

Darson looks like you need to be chastised my freindstop critising you work,i've seen your models and they're excellent in fact i was so impressed with your Aussie Mk8 Spitfire that iv'e decided to to the same scheme for next years aussie GB

EDIT: Does anyone know if there's a BoB Do17 in 1/48

If Her Hitler would have listened to people like Kesselring, Rommel, Von Runstedt and Feild Marshall Model the outcome of WW2 may have been very different, instead he led his armed forces into disaster after disaster such as the destruction of the 6th army at Stalingrad.......
Even if he had listened to Admiral Donitz and given him the 300 U Boats that he wanted instead of the 30 or so that he had the outcome may have been different.......
Indeed Churchill said his greatest concern was the U boat menace, England would not have survived if not for the lifeline coming across the Atlantic from the U S.......

I wonder whether Roosevelt would have gone to war earlier if German troops landed in Britain as planned...........jules

QUOTE: Originally posted by tho9900 The Germans, if it were not for Hitler's growing need to have his finger on everything, and the incompetence of some of the higher staff (Goering) would have owned the world... with Generals like Rommel, the technology they were developing etc... they would have been unstoppable. But instead research was diverted to supernatural aids for their soldiers, the true military was alienated and eventually gotten rid of and the "yes" men came to power...

So you mean they became modern day politicians!!!
Wow, who would have thunked it huh???

Ah well, one thing for sure, what happened was a tragedy, and I hope, for my sons sake, that the world atm changes, 'cause it is starting to look awful similar to half the history books Ive read..................................

Darren, thanks for the review! I only bid 10 dollars on it so even if I win, it will be worth it... inaccuracies and all... I can't wait till the new kit is released in the US though... looking forward to building it!

Karl, I agree.... I am bout ready to consign the models I had been working on to a "to be completed" pile... I am sure I will get back to them later, I liked all of them when I bought them, it's just I haven't been in the build....



The Germans, if it were not for Hitler's growing need to have his finger on everything, and the incompetence of some of the higher staff (Goering) would have owned the world... with Generals like Rommel, the technology they were developing etc... they would have been unstoppable. But instead research was diverted to supernatural aids for their soldiers, the true military was alienated and eventually gotten rid of and the "yes" men came to power...


---edit---

oh yeah forgot to answer ya Darren... I got the Badger 155 Anthem... a VERY sweet brush!!! And if that guy from the model shop pops in, we'll be sure to mention that kicked you out of the Group Build months ago, something about you having a Fuhrer complex or something... haha no... we'll say hello to him for you!


--Tom--

I was suffering from burn out last month, with 4 kits on the go, and none of them going anywhere fast.

I ended up canning my Revell 109 G10 in 1/72, and putting my 1/72 PM Ta183 on hold. That has left me to focus on the continued rescribing of panel lines on my Italeri Do217K1.

The real life saver has been my 1/48 Mirage PZL P24G. This is a wonderful kit with it's own resin and PE in the box. I've really enjoyed this, and without the pressure of other builds has been made doubly so.

Some times you just have so 'Enough is enough' and junk the stuff that you just aren't interested in anymore.

The Germans singularly failed to exploit the technologies that they had at hand, ie the Me282, Ar234, numerous very effective guided missiles etc, to chase bizarre technologies such as the Me163, Maus AFV to name but a few. I think that there can be little doubt, that with a more focussed approach to weapons development and procurement the Germans might have won the war, thank fully they didn't.

Karl

QUOTE: Originally posted by tho9900 By the way... good news! In an effort to get me out of modellers block and also be done with 2 group builds at once... I am building a 1/72 F6F Hellcat.. and loving the you know what out of it... It's almost like I was a little boy again.. 2 bare sprues with relatively few parts... 2 clear pieces... one sheet of decals... none of which say "No Step" or "Radio transmitter located under this infintessimally small panel... nosirree... they all state proudly US NAVY! or US in large easy to read and even easier to place on the fuselage letters! It was all I could do to put it aside tonight and let the paint dry... If I wasn't careful it WOULD have been like I was a little boy again: with messy cement coated fingers, placing whitened canopy on yet unsanded fuselage, still wet with paint... (almost sounded like I was starting a Dylan Thomas poem for a sec... hmmm...) What does this have to do with this topic? Well boys, the enjoyment came back... I was on 4 hard builds at once and it took the fire out of me.. getting something near to off the desk and completed has me excited.... my fingers are already anticipating running down the fuselage of that Ju87... contemplating what the 1/48 Classic Airframes (1990's release) Boulton Paul Defiant I bid on in Ebay tonight will feel like, whilst I caress its' "finely recessed panel lines" and feel the cold silence of the PE laying yet still dormant in my hands...waiting to awake and scream out .... "I NEED CA!!!!!"... I'm back in the game... I was getting scared because I have spent about $500 on kits and a new airbrush this month.. and then the fun died and so did my lust for styrene (the plastic polymer, not the forum user here ) I hope to hear about the Defiant... but as a hedge I will start on the Ju87 soon... and if it doesn't come in I am doing the Ju88 if I can find the period appropriate build... I still think the monogram night fighter kit comes with a panel to replace the glass cover for the radio direction finder on the dorsal fuselage, as well as the glass nose for the bombadier/nose gunner... we'll see.. I have an annoying habit of saving old instructions so I will check for them... Look out! It's time to build again!!!!

Hi Tho, here is a link to a review of and comparison between the old and new CA Defiants. http://kits.kitreview.com/defiantreviewse_1.htm BTW, what sort of airbrush did you get?

I have managed to beat my burnout by doing something new (for me anyway) I have started work on the cockpit of my Bf 109 E3. This will be my first German aircraft since I was a kid and my first ever attempt at mottled camo, so no laughing when I post my progress photos.

I was in a hobby store this morning getting some paint for the 109 and the owner who is a nice bloke asked for details on the GB and said he might drop in to say hello. So if he does, it was me you were talking too. I hope that kinda made sense

Cheers
Darren

Sub standard materials certainly dogged Germany in the last year or so of the war. That, coupled with production problems and delays caused by Hitler and Goering (Hitler insisting that the Me262 be used for a blitzbomber not a fighter) meant that some of the better fighters never reached production.

cheers

Mike

By the way... good news! In an effort to get me out of modellers block and also be done with 2 group builds at once... I am building a 1/72 F6F Hellcat.. and loving the you know what out of it... It's almost like I was a little boy again.. 2 bare sprues with relatively few parts... 2 clear pieces... one sheet of decals... none of which say "No Step" or "Radio transmitter located under this infintessimally small panel... nosirree... they all state proudly US NAVY! or US in large easy to read and even easier to place on the fuselage letters! It was all I could do to put it aside tonight and let the paint dry...

If I wasn't careful it WOULD have been like I was a little boy again: with messy cement coated fingers, placing whitened canopy on yet unsanded fuselage, still wet with paint... (almost sounded like I was starting a Dylan Thomas poem for a sec... hmmm...)

What does this have to do with this topic? Well boys, the enjoyment came back... I was on 4 hard builds at once and it took the fire out of me.. getting something near to off the desk and completed has me excited.... my fingers are already anticipating running down the fuselage of that Ju87... contemplating what the 1/48 Classic Airframes (1990's release) Boulton Paul Defiant I bid on in Ebay tonight will feel like, whilst I caress its' "finely recessed panel lines" and feel the cold silence of the PE laying yet still dormant in my hands...waiting to awake and scream out .... "I NEED CA!!!!!"...

I'm back in the game... I was getting scared because I have spent about $500 on kits and a new airbrush this month.. and then the fun died and so did my lust for styrene (the plastic polymer, not the forum user here )

I hope to hear about the Defiant... but as a hedge I will start on the Ju87 soon... and if it doesn't come in I am doing the Ju88 if I can find the period appropriate build... I still think the monogram night fighter kit comes with a panel to replace the glass cover for the radio direction finder on the dorsal fuselage, as well as the glass nose for the bombadier/nose gunner... we'll see.. I have an annoying habit of saving old instructions so I will check for them...

Look out! It's time to build again!!!!

I feel the same Carl, those formations all up tight in a box formation, with a German missile with considerable explosive payload guided right into one... they could have disabled, or taken out 3 or 4 planes with one missle (with the resulting debris being forcefully thrown out from the explosion of the missile...)

the inner industrial yards of Germany could have probably been saved with a decent amount of the Wasserfall... resulting in more production of war material, it would only take a few attacks before the Allied tactics would have to be majorly overhauled...

I don't know if it would have changed the ultimate outcome, but it would have lengthened the war who knows how long...

---edit--

Although reading a bit more about the Wasserfall, one reason it was never widely used is the allied ability to jam its radio link to the controller.... along with a substandard guidance and stabilization system...

---Tom---

Mike, the Germans made several underwater launches in the Baltic in early 1945.

It would have taken them several years to deploy V2s at sea due to the difficulties and dangers involved in the fuelling/launch process. I think we all know that New York would have become the first target, if only for symbolic value.

The wonder is that the Gerams did not deploy Wasserfall earlier, as it would have been devastating against the densely packed USAAF formations operating over the Reich.

Karl

hmmm, now do not get me started on that subject!

cheers

Mike

V2's under water huh.

Sounds like the modern day submarines too me.

Barges, that sounds like our Collins class.

QUOTE: Originally posted by j.s.harrison Ok Mike what about the Home fleet in Scapa,Battleships pound German positions in France from 20klm's away while Destroyers and Cruisers go into the Channel to attack the invasion force, at night of course or the Luftwaffe would have had a feild day...... BTW i remember the movie with Ruetger Hauer in it i think......

Operation Sea Lion called for the complete distruction of the RAF before the invasion begun, Adler Tag or Eagle Day was going to be the culmination of the Luftwaffe's effort to ensure this happened. In 1940, the Royal Navy's capital ships would not have survived air attacks (either at sea once found or at anchor at Scapa) by an utterly dominant Luftwaffe once the RAF had been removed from the air. In 1941 The HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse were sunk off Singapore by Japanese aircraft for the same reason.

Hitler and his chiefs of staff knew that the Royal Navy had to be neutralised as a force once the RAF was taken out.

The Kreigsmarine would been able to mop up the remainder with uboats and the small surface fleet Germany had at the time.

Admiral Raeder did not want to engage the Royal Navy in battle until the mid 50's when the "Z-plan" was in full swing. This plan projected the Kreigmarine to have battleships with 21"-22" guns and battlecruisers mounting 16" guns. In this way the Royal Navy would be seriously challenged and outgunned . However the war started earlier than expected. The Kreigsmarine were very worried, almost terrified of what the Royal Navy could do to any invasion force that tried to cross the channel and wanted to be able to eliminate the Navy for force of arms or superior vessels.

Karl
I read SSGB many years ago, cannot remember much now but it certainly was a very thought provoking book!. I know in Fatherland that the Russian resistance had retreated to Siberia which had become Germany's version of Vietnam.

Tweety
You are right on that score, Goering was simply completely incompetent on a lot of issues. Ill advised as well, eg Ernst Udet, who insisted that every german aircraft from the Stuka upwards had to be able to dive bomb (the Ju88 has dive brakes for the reason). Hitler was the one who gave the order to stop Jet research before 1940 though, to concetrate industry into a war production phase.

Now if England had gone ahead with the Whittle through to the Meteor and Vampire, then combat between jets might well have been on the cards, perhaps as early as 1941. Still, a jet fighter equiped Luftwaffe in 1940 might not have been out of the question.

I saw a show on Video called Hitlers Secret Weapons, where they showed footage of V2's being fired underwater from barges towed by Uboats, now that was thought provoking!!

cheers

Mike

Ooooooooooooooooh, Brits losing the BoB huh.

Most people are reserved to the fact had Germany gained control of England, then most of Europe would also have fallen.

I dont think Russia would have gone under, far too many rebel squads would have hampered the plan forever.

Good point Mike, but Goering is mostly too blame, he was spose to inform Hitler of testing developements, but did not emphasise just how awesome the potential was.
If they had, there would have been no way ANYONE could have air supremacy other than the Germans.

At least the research wasn't wasted, I know of one country that used every scrap of info they could find, and researchers too!

Mike, I read Fatherland when it came out, a truly chilling book!

Have you read Len Deighton's SSGB, which is set in London in 1941 after the succesful German invasion of the UK? Horribly readable, and a scary prospect! Also of couse by the same author, Fighter, the history of the BoB.

Maybe if the Air Ministry had put more faith in Whittle in the late 20s and early 30s, it could have been 109s versus Meteors! Think the outcome would have been the same, maybe just a little quicker!

Karl

Ok Mike what about the Home fleet in Scapa,Battleships pound German positions in France from 20klm's away while Destroyers and Cruisers go into the Channel to attack
the invasion force, at night of course or the Luftwaffe would have had a feild day......

BTW i remember the movie with Ruetger Hauer in it i think......

Operation Sea Lion would have gone ahead, the Royal Family would have fled to Canada and England would have sued for peace. After that, Germany could have concentrated all their miltary (now with the west secured) and smashed the Soviet Union. Cannot remember the author now but a book called "Fatherland" . Set in the late 60's (Hitler hated the Beatles) it tells the thrilling tale of a German cop who unearths the hideous truth about the extermination of the Jews. Good novel and movie.

What I find facinating is that if Hitler had not curtailed development of jet engines and jet fighter prototypes in the late 30's, then the RAF could well have been facing jet fighters in 1940. Lot's of "what-ifs" there....

Hmmm, a Me262 or the Heinkel jet in 1940 era splinter and yellow jet nacelles...

cheers

Mike

Yeah i know what you mean Tom, i have a stubborn streak too, but i don't seem to have a problem making myself work on models cause my collection is only 4 strong and i want many more finished builds to display.....

Tweets 13 hours a day at work and husband father duties, it's amazing that you get any modelling done at all

OK so i have to ask this
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THE RAF LOST THE BOB

QUOTE: Originally posted by j.s.harrison BTW whats all this modellers burnout stuff, i just tell myself GET OFF YOUR AND DO SOMETHING, seems to work....................most of the time..............not all the time

haha I tried that already Jules... decided to take this week off and just hang around the forums to get the itch again and it's working... I'm stubborn and when someone tries to make me do something I really don't feel like doing I dig in my heels... even when it's ME doing the pushing!

well tomorrow is the day.... the wife is going to an all day Karate tournament up north a bit so that means at least 8 hours of uninterrupted modelling! Problem is which one to work on first? haha... probably my 240Z from the Old Guns build... it's closest to being finished... (nice thing about cars, I didnt know till I built one, not much cockpit to get involved in)

Might even skip out on the building and go get that Ju-88 or Do-17 whichever pops up first... would still have time for a nap and modelling too!

Tweety: I know what you mean... I made the mistake of telling my boss she should delegate more, instead of taking all the responsibility.. well she is now... she delegates it to me!!!

Darren: I knew that screen looked familiar!!!! I used to LOVE that game! Lucas came out with the sequel this year but it was bad bad bad! Secret weapons over Normandy was nothing but an arcade style game... SWOTL was the standard for quite some time!!! and believe it or not I still felt it was more realistic than most of the modern flyers I have tried...