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New German Destroyer...price gouging? Locked

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  • Member since
    November 2005
New German Destroyer...price gouging?
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:21 PM

By Trump in 350th...

German Navy Z Class Destroyer `Z-25 1944` (Plastic model) Contents4

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German Navy Z Class Destroyer `Z-25 1944` (Plastic model) Color2

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German Navy Z Class Destroyer `Z-25 1944` (Plastic model) Contents3

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German Navy Z Class Destroyer `Z-25 1944` (Plastic model) Other picture1

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German Navy Z Class Destroyer `Z-25 1944` (Plastic model) Contents2

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:30 PM

Nice! So we have USN, IJN, and DKM destroyers in 1/350 now. Still lacking for the RN.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: N. Georgia
Posted by Jester75 on Thursday, January 27, 2011 4:04 PM

Awesome!! Thanks for posting Manny. Looks like it even comes with a bit of pe too! Mine should be here Saturday for a good once over.

Eric

 

  • Member since
    January 2005
Posted by John @ WEM on Thursday, January 27, 2011 4:23 PM

Lots of 1/350 RN destroyers available--just not in plastic!

Cheers,

John Snyder

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:55 PM

Resin is too pricey for my budget. Hopefully Airfix will step up. They have been coming out with some RN stuff lately in 1/350 plastic. All modern lately, but that does raise hope. Hopefully they will see the gap needing to be filled.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    April 2013
Posted by Antipodean Andy on Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:54 PM

Stikpusher, could not agree more.  A nice plastic Tribal-class in 1/350 would be most welcome.

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Saturday, January 29, 2011 10:02 AM

This is great news.

The Trumpeter kit will be just as good as the Dragon offering which no doubt will be twice as expensive (but not TWICE as good)

The pricing structure of Dragon's various importers/distributors has now reached a point where they are  simply taking the piss at our expense.

I have to admit I'm not a fan of the all singing all dancing kits with an over-complex parts count. that seem to be coming out nowadays. I prefer the Trumpeter approach with a sound base to start from, and some good PE detail and leave the rest to aftermarket/scratchbuild. Or alternatively give you the choice between a base kit at a cheaper price, or superdetailed kit at a premium.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, January 29, 2011 11:55 AM

And yet, Dragon's Scharnhorst cost the same as Trumpeter's 1/350 capital ships.  I believe you meant the prices of Hasegawa and Aoshima kits were overly expensive.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Saturday, January 29, 2011 12:30 PM

True, Dragon and Trumpeter give more bang for the buck than Tamiya or Hasegawa with their ship kits. Their destroyer kits are certianly good game.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 29, 2011 12:35 PM

It will be interesting to see a head-to-head review of the Dragon and Trump offering of this kit..

Interesting that Trump "trumped" Dragon by adding a PE fret in their kit this time...which is usually one of the advantages Dragon has over the Trump ship offerings...However, Dragon usually issues a "special PE set" for offerings like these, like they did with the US Destroyer they released a few years go with even more PE to "trick" the kit completely out...

I wonder if they tried to beat each other to the market-place first with this kit? Or is it intentional that Dragon let Trump let their's hit the shelves first?

The World Wonders...

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Saturday, January 29, 2011 12:38 PM

Not necessarily so -

Hasegawa & Aoishima don't do any subjects in which I am interested, so they are straight out of the equation for me, not to mention that their prices are absolutely sillier than Dragon's.

 

What you would pay in $US we pay in £GBP regardless of the prevailing exchange rate,

For Dragon's Scharnhorst for example,

In the U.S, you pay $129.99US (£81.95UK)

In the UK it is £129.99 rrp ($206.20UK!)

If that isn't taking the piss I don't know what is.

And yet despite both coming from China,  Trumpeter kits are significantly cheaper..

A good example is Trumpeter's new 1/350 Zerstorer kit.

Currently available here for £26.99UK  ($42,90US)

Check out Dragon's offering -

Proposed rrp of $49.99US - That's £31.06GBP

The UK price will no doubt be £49.99UK - That's $79.30US.

Rip off?

 

You bet.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Saturday, January 29, 2011 12:57 PM

Ouch! Sounds like your importers need some slapping around!

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Saturday, January 29, 2011 7:19 PM

Dragon and their supporters have had a  a laugh Big-time -

On the subject of Dragon kit prices, I didn't make myself very popular on another principal warship web site a while back when I kicked off about the-then exorbitant asking price for Dragon's new 1/350 Scharnhorst kit.
 
It turned out that a couple of the U.S.-based posters had had an active paid involvement in researching and producing the CAD drawings of the ship for Dragon, No problem there - all to the good if the end-result was an accurate kit - which it is.
 
The problem was (is) that these guys got pretty hostile every time I boo'ed the price of the kit down, even to the point of the CAD guy offering me a free kit 'for review purposes' to shut me up.

I quote -

"I understand your trepidation on the price, we see the same thing over here, though not as bad. Listen, as part of my deal with Dragon, in exchange for me doing their CAD work, I get some free copies of the kit. I need some reviews posted to get people interested, and since I have to keep Tracy happy, I have a little proposition for you. If you will hold off on passing judgement on the kit before it is ever released, I will send you one of those kits for review.

Don't talk to anyone else about it until after the review is done, that way no one can influence your decision.

What do you think? Do we have a deal?"

NAME OF POSTER WITHHELD

I subsequently ignored him and continued to pour scorn on the asking price of the kit across a number of modelling forums. I have even advocated a global boycott on the kit until the price was dropped, but to no avail.

But it stinks doesn't it?

The importers and their respective distributors sat back and continued to both laugh and price-gouge accordingly.

IMHO - Dragon have made their kits increasingly inaccessible, both in terms of price, and in terms of the capabilities of those  who purchase them.

I am sick and tired of hearing the oft trotted-out excuses about the exchange rate, the rising costs of oil, the costs of freight /shipping / transport. - If Trumpeter can mange to create and ship at an economical price, then why can Dragon not manage the same?

 

Both come from China after all........

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 29, 2011 8:12 PM

Wow, now that's interesting....I'd like to see a response about this from Tracy White...

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Saturday, January 29, 2011 8:31 PM

To be fair, I cannot say for certain that Tracy was privy to this information, it was sent to me by another guy involved in the R&D of the Scharnhorst kit at the time via PM on the board in question.

Tracy may or may not have been aware of this message at the time. What I can say is that he was not happy about my continuous highlighting of the (at that time) exorbitant cost of this kit in the UK.

What I can say for certain, is that my promised 'review' kit never did materialise, not that this would have made a blind bit of difference.

I still believe that Dragon kits are needlessly more expensive than need be - in all markets, not just the UK one, and not just their naval subjects either.

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Saturday, January 29, 2011 10:58 PM

Antipodean Andy

Stikpusher, could not agree more.  A nice plastic Tribal-class in 1/350 would be most welcome.

I will second, (third ?) this suggestion. I have had my eyes on a Tribal class in 1:350 scale, but just don't feel up to the challenge of a resin kit, cost aside.

It will even be better if Revell brings out a 1:144 scale to complement their Fletcher kit.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:29 AM

warshipbuilder
What I can say for certain, is that my promised 'review' kit never did materialise, not that this would have made a blind bit of difference.

So, you say you ignored Rob's offer of a kit, and then you try and suggest surprise that your review kit never came. What address is he supposed to ship this to if you don't respond and give him one?

Let clear up a couple of things, because WarshipBuilder is stating things are are untrue. Whether or not he just does not know any better or is on a campaign to smear Dragon I don't know and I really don't care.

There is only one person who has been paid directly by Dragon for work, and that is Rob McCune; he is currently working on CAD for them as a contractor and is not a permanent employee per se. I would LOVE to see him in a more permanent roll there as he has made the process of getting the kits out MUCH better. TO give you an example, we started work on the CVL two and a half years before the kit was out. Scharnhorst was started a year after that point, and it came out well in advance of the CVL.

I was essentially project lead for the CVL; that means that when Dragon CAD engineers released a revision of the CAD I would pour over it, find mistakes, and then poor over photos and plans I had and copy and paste selections into screen shots of the CAD highlighting what changes to make. Dragon CAD guys are not ship guys, nor are they really even model builders; their specialty is plastic molding. They are very adept at making model kits, but one could not say "move the starboard midships bits forward five feet" to them. With Rob, that's not even a consideration, we just feed him research and let the boy fly.

For that two and a half years of work, which was admittedly part time (say 5-10 hours a month depending) I received three kits. None of them were promised me when we started; there was an opportunity to help make a kit better and I jumped on it. All three of them were promised to other people who gave their time and other help to get the kit released. So, that's how much I got paid. That's pretty much the same thing that has happened with everyone else who has helped; there is non-monetary compensation of some sort, sometimes. When we ask someone to help out that is all we do, ask for help. We've never said, "hey, want a free kit?" The main goal is to get the best kit out that we can, and the team is made up of some people who are giving a lot for no promise of compensation. So, that's why a few of us get a little perturbed at Warship Builder's inflammatory posts about "active paid members."

Rob offered you a kit not because he was trying to buy your silence. None of us trust you that much. No, the reason Rob offered to send you, for free, some of his compensation for the time he spent on the CAD, was because of his passion and belief in the kit. Surely you can see some of the value if you have it in your hands and can witness the quality of the parts? But no, you didn't want to give the kit a chance.

Now, on to the crux of Dave's (WarshipBuilder) assertions, that Dragon is ripping off customers and not providing value. Dave thinks he is the sole arbitrator of value. If it is too expensive for HIM, then it is a rip off. If HE doesn't want the detail, then it is obviously over-engineered. If HE doesn't think that it is a good product, then obviously the manufacturer is out to fleece the modeling public.

When I started building Trumpeter's CV-13 kit, I started by looking over the kit and comparing it to photos, much like we all do, and much like I did with the CVL. I spent hours making notes; I had something like 80 categories of omissions or incorrect details before I even hit the island (working from bottom up). One of the VALUES of the Dragon kits is that I don't have to do that; I know that honest research went into the design and the details are correct. Meanwhile my 1/35th BB-56 conversion sits, packed up on the storage shelf, because I don't feel like fixing the lower superstructure level, which is something like five scale feet too tall.

That, however, is not a value to Dave.

While Scharnhorst's instructions are a train wreck, the slide-molded superstructure pieces mean less time for me puttying and sanding joints and ensuring a true edge. Instead of just cutting or sanding off the bulkhead detail because it's easier to add it back via scratch building *finer* than Trumpeter  put it on, than to try and save it, I am planning my process around doing as little damage to the surface when I do have to sand, because the detail on the Dragon kit is finer than I can put it back on!

This is also not a value to Dave.

My Scharnhorst's upper and lower hulls went together extremely well; the only real putty it needed was in areas that *I* accidentally distorted. I had the hull together and sanded down in essentially two weeks of extremely part-time availability. My Trumpeter Hood sits with it's hull mostly but not quite sanded because I got tired of essentially a FIVE FOOT SEAM that fit like crap. Woes of the fit between Trumpeter upper and lower hull pieces are legion. The Z-25 does not even give you the option of a waterline hull; you either have to full-hull it, or spend the time cutting away the lower hull to waterline it yourself.

Good fit is apparently not a value to Dave. Options are apparently not a good value to Dave.

Let's also not forget that Dave is projecting a lot of his anger towards distributors on to Dragon:

warshipbuilder
What you would pay in $US we pay in £GBP regardless of the prevailing exchange rate,

For Dragon's Scharnhorst for example,

In the U.S, you pay $129.99US (£81.95UK)

In the UK it is £129.99 rrp ($206.20UK!)

If that isn't taking the piss I don't know what is.

But note that the price there is not from Dragon, but from a distributor. Distributor mark-ups are a fact of life unless you go to the source and pay the higher shipping yourself.  Why, just last week I spent $50 on shipping for a kit from Hong Kong because it saved me $120 off of the retail price!

Some loose ends:

Mannstein: As far as I know there was no race to get these to market. Dragon is not afraid of Trumpeter, but also does not want to release subjects that have less selling potential. We were starting to think about doing a CVE when Hasegawa's was announced; the project got killed. Once the CAD was completed I think they would have gone ahead anyway, but at any point before that it would have been easier to say "stop work; NEXT!"

Dragon is indeed focusing on the high-end detailer with their kits. They're not for neophytes. We're still trying to work with them to improve things like the instructions, but you are not likely to see a retrenchment in fidelity of detail. If it's more than you can handle, I'm sorry. No one promised that you'd be able to drive a Ferrari, either. The good news is that you don't have to buy it. and you do have a choice.

In final, I would say that Dave's real problem isn't with Dragon, but with free markets. People should not be able to get a good wage, but should be happy with fast-food worker wages because it keeps the product cheaper for him. People should not be allowed to charge for services above the bar; they should do top-notch work and sell at cut-rate prices that make their company untenable.

And as a final-final, I would remind everyone that as I am not an employee of Dragon, this post and opinions are mine, not theirs. If you take exception to it, you are taking exception to me and my opinions.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by potchip on Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:10 AM

Whines from those that DON'T BUILD.  For any builders, the cost of a kit is hardly a fraction of the total amount of resource spent on a model, so much so it is very much irrelevant.

Value is totally subjective. Trumpeter reckons 4 pieces for a box with surface details on each piece is what people want. I prefer Tamiya's plain but sharp molding, at least I don't need to.....remove surface details because they are overscale, or fill and sand every joint, or repeated filing to create a proper right angle, and things fit!

Then on prices, There's this word called arbitrage - if the price of a kit local is too expensive, whilst it sells much cheaper overseas, as long as the shipping rate is less than the difference you should acquire it overseas if price is important to you. The only thing prevents people from doing it is Trumpeter/Dragon release first in oversea markets at a premium, then domestically. The domestic release allows HK based sellers to dish them out at domestic price + shipping. As long as you are prepared to wait a bit, it's never been a biggie, not like it will get built by then is it?

On another note, I would happily take any 'review sample' in anyone else's stead, and it will not be an inbox review either :P Just kidding..

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Hobart, Tasmania
Posted by Konigwolf13 on Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:27 AM

Tracy, I have been a member on these boards nearly 2 years now lurking far more than posting (I even lurked through the lurking thread). Up until now I have held your opinion in high regard as most of your posts I have read seem spot on or have been backed up by others. My opinion of you is now rather well, less due to only two posts. This one and another one on Dragon's German Destroyer (started by manny again). While I held my tounge on this one, I cant now (you slanderd Trumpeters quality v's Dragon saying only real kit makers would choose Dragon). Now I feel compelled to comment, you have shown yourself to be nothing but a company sell out, unable to make an objective observation, and while my thoughts, regards or opinions of your probably amount to squat they have been voiced.

In short, Tracy through your work with Dragon (yes I have more than a few kits of theirs and I like them) you seem to of had your vision blurred to be able judge things objectivley (to slander and bad mouth a kit you had admittedly NO FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE) and I must now say you voice is worth less than noobs, NO RESPECT HERE mate.

Andrew

My goodness I'm about to blaspheme Tracy, While not a ship kit I'm about to enhance a Dragon kit with parts from an Academy AngryBang HeadConfused

Dragon - just another kit maker

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:27 AM

Gentlemen,

Lets restore some semblance of good behavior here.  I, for one, appreciate the efforts both Dragon and Trumpeter have brought to our little world.  I even appreciate those of Academy, especially when their HMS Queen Elizabeth hits the market.  These three have also served to stimulate further production by Tamiya, Hasegawa, and Aoshima, all of which produce kits in which I am interested. 

That said, no kit has ever been described as perfect.  Tracy admits that Dragon's instructions could be improved upon. As for pricing, Trumpeter's USS Alabama sells for $129.00 in one LHS, their Prinz Eugen for $129.00, and Dragon's Scharnhorst for $119.00.  Revell's Bismarck and Tirpitz sell for $119.00.  The prices seem very comparable to me.

To quote a famous older TV commercial, "Where's the beef?"

Tracy, keep up the good and thorough work.  Without the efforts of the designers from each company, we ship modelers would still be back in the good ol' days of Aurora and flat-bottomed Revell.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:42 AM

I shall attempt to address the salient points raised thus far -

"So, you say you ignored Rob's offer of a kit, and then you try and suggest surprise that your review kit never came. What address is he supposed to ship this to if you don't respond and give him one?"

I did not ignore Rob's PM - I replied and heard nothing more. What I said was that I ignored his request for silence.

"Rob offered you a kit not because he was trying to buy your silence....."

Although the evidence is not conclusive, I think a jury might convict.....

"My Trumpeter Hood sits with it's hull mostly but not quite sanded because I got tired of essentially a FIVE FOOT SEAM that fit like crap."

Then you should have taken it back for exchange - mine is fine.

"Woes of the fit between Trumpeter upper and lower hull pieces are legion."

Care to highlight some reviews which say as much? I have only found one from the subject range in which I am interested.

"Let's also not forget that Dave is projecting a lot of his anger towards distributors on to Dragon:"

My 'anger' as you put it, is principally directed at those distort the final rrp wherever the kit is sold. They know who they are.

"Distributor mark-ups are a fact of life unless you go to the source and pay the higher shipping yourself.  Why, just last week I spent $50 on shipping for a kit from Hong Kong because it saved me $120 off of the retail price!"

What you fail to mention is that any initial price advantage can be compromised by import duty at the destination end.

Also,  his seems at odds with the statement you made about expecting people to live on poor wages and to work for next to nothing.....

"People should not be able to get a good wage, but should be happy with fast-food worker wages because it keeps the product cheaper for him. People should not be allowed to charge for services above the bar; they should do top-notch work and sell at cut-rate prices that make their company untenable."

Tracy, that is exactly what the free market is all about. What distorts this is the Govts and the Distributors/Importers.

And I wouldn't say that Trumpeter's current company position is "untenable" - would you?

 

"....you are not likely to see a retrenchment in fidelity of detail. If it's more than you can handle, I'm sorry."

Then I suspect that we will see more comments like these across the web.

In reference to the Scharnhorst kit -

"I think Dragon have gone over the top by making the smaller parts more complicated than need be, and of course, the weird layout of the instructions complicate matters even more."

"All the 20mm/37mm/105mm AA guns have been added, I didn't use all the parts included in the kit for these, as some of them were so tiny I just can`t see them! I didn't like the way Dragon have done the 105 mm guns, I think they should have been moulded in pairs rather than singles, it was a devil of a job to line up the barrels in parallel."

"Spent a whole day going cross-eyed building the light AA armament and adding PE details to the mains and secondaries. Still more PE to add. Each AA weapon comes in at least 4 parts with another 4 or 5 of PE,"

"I will admit I'm now finding it more of a chore than fun. A lot of the kits plastic parts are incredibly small too, and I'm sure could have easily been moulded on to their relevant positions. Hell, the sprue gates are bigger than some of the parts."

I just wonder if Dragon are being well advised, because if they continue with this level of often-needless complexity, then those of us who are 'behind the curve' as you put it elsewhere, and are I suspect a significant majority of model kit buyers,  will not be parting with money for something which you say we are incapable of building, and there's no profit in that avenue for anybody.

As has been said elsewhere - "I wonder how many of these kits will actually be completed, rather than end up as $200 doorstops"?

Not everyone wants a Ferrari, and contrary to your opinion I have no problem with those who do.

What I would like to see, is a kit whose build provides for a relaxing and enjoyable experience rather than a very expensive and frustrating one.

 


 


  • Member since
    January 2011
  • From: Melbourne Uh-strail-yuh
Posted by Kormoran on Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:10 AM

You guys should learn to relax.

Quote from Warshipbuilder regarding the offer of a free sample:

"I subsequently ignored him and continued to pour scorn on the asking price of the kit across a number of modelling forums. I have even advocated a global boycott on the kit until the price was dropped, but to no avail."

Now you're claiming that you did indeed reply (!?). Regardless, by trying to prompt a boycott, it's obvious that you really do have a major gripe against Dragon. But if you think they're over-engineered, overly complex and overly-expensive...then why does it bother you so much? I don't understand your crusade, as Tracy said, just don't buy their kits.

Latest Dragon kits are also expensive in Australia (Scharnhorst LHS = $220 Au) but you're not just paying for styrene in a cardboard box - you're paying for R&D and state of the art tooling. Like it or not, they are a high-end kit manufacturer, it's like trying to boycott Jaguar to make their cars as cheap as a Ford.

Alternatively, Tracy should stop waving the Dragon flag like some rabid fanatic. I recall a post where you poured scorn on their Zerstorer before it was even released, and (in Oz at least) it's going to be about 1/2 the price of the Dragon. Trumpeter make some truly excellent kits, and frankly, crying about your Hood's hull mis-alignment makes me believe you've forgotten what this hobby is all about.

You've both lost objectivity.

Now that I've completely alienated myself (and on my very first post!)....hi, my names Richard, pleased to meet you all!

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:14 AM

This is the free market, and it's called supply and demand. If the demand is there, the price goes up. Pretty normal, and is one of the factors that makes the US great. Why can't China do the same?

Price gouging is when the prices goes up due to some calamity that makes your product in high demand, like food or gas during a storm. Very different things, really.

Don't like the price of the kit, then don't buy it. It's not like its actually necessary to your existence.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:37 AM

Bgrigg

This is the free market, and it's called supply and demand. If the demand is there, the price goes up. Pretty normal, and is one of the factors that makes the US great. Why can't China do the same?

Price gouging is when the prices goes up due to some calamity that makes your product in high demand, like food or gas during a storm. Very different things, really.

Don't like the price of the kit, then don't buy it. It's not like its actually necessary to your existence.

I agree, and it will be interesting to see what happens to the prices as Trump continues to close the gap between themselves and Dragon, which is what appears to be happening w/ the German Destroyer release...Trump seems to be removing some of the things that set them back from Dragon in the past, ala the PE fret, etc...

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:38 AM

Gentlemen,

Next we'll hear advocates for returning to Revell's very old practise of molding on 20mm and 40mm AA guns. I, for one, truly enjoyed building Dragon's Scharnhorst and am looking forward to building either Trumpeter's or Dragon's German destroyer.

Let's take a vote . . . does anyone want to return to the good old days of selecting from only Bismarck, Tirpitz, Yamato, Musashi, Missouri, and the other Iowa's?  Or, better yet, return to mixed scales where the only thing in common was the box size?  My vote is a resounding "NO WAY!"

Dragon, Trumpeter, Academy, Revell, et. al., please keep up the terrific work!  If I don't want a particular kit, I have the choice of not buying it; however, at least I have a choice between a huge number of kits not available when I was a kid.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:44 AM

warshipguy

I, for one, truly enjoyed building Dragon's Scharnhorst ...

Post pics...

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: N. Georgia
Posted by Jester75 on Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:44 AM

Lol, hi Richard and welcome to FSM!!!

There are a few things that don't make sense to me about some of the posts above. One is Dragon not being able to control their prices. I don't believe this for one second. There are alot of companies out there that meticulously control the prices of their products out on the retailers shelves. And another is, if the CAD people and the designers/researchers at Dragon are not getting paid (unless copies of the kits in question count), then that means that Dragon has an even lower cost in the design of their kits.  Maybe I'm not understanding, or seeing the whole picture on Dragons design side of things.

I will continue to buy kits from both manufacturers when I feel the need to arises as I do like both companies. Until I feel that I can justify the 50 bucks for the Dragon kit, I simply won't buy it. If an individual as a modeler feels they just have to have it, then so be it. Their choice as a consumer in a market where there are several options. If I decided that I must have a 350th Scharnhorst, well, guess Dragon will get my money ( which I'm actually considering cause I love this ship). Just not crazy about folks always defending Dragon on thier expensive uber kits. Damn, I'm starting to sound like Hans now...........

 

Eric

 

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: N. Georgia
Posted by Jester75 on Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:45 AM

Manstein's revenge

 warshipguy:

I, for one, truly enjoyed building Dragon's Scharnhorst ...

Post pics...

Ditto, would love to see some pics of this beauty!!!

Eric

 

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:55 AM

"But if you think they're over-engineered, overly complex and overly-expensive...then why does it bother you so much? I don't understand your crusade, as Tracy said, just don't buy their kits."

Let me explain -

The general rule up to now has been that as soon as one kit manufacturer brings out a certain subject, you can be pretty sure that none of the others will also bring out that same subject because the perception - rightly or wrongly - is that there's no money in it for them.That is why much secrecy surrounds new releases etc.

What this may mean is that when a much hoped-for subject is released by a manufacturer you don't particularly care for, for whatever reason, then you can kiss goodbye to that subject ever being released by a different manufacturer.

What this means for me is that I will not be able to get a 1/350 Scharnhorst kit which I can actually enjoy building.

Life ain't fair, I accept that, I also accept that I will not buy any Dragon kits for the reasons I have already described,  but I do hope that my other much-hoped for subject releases are done by Trumpeter rather than Dragon.

It would be great if Trumpeter followed the example of the Zerstorers and released their own version of the Scharnhorst but I rather suspect that this will not happen in my lifetime for the reasons I have described.

"Latest Dragon kits are also expensive in Australia (Scharnhorst LHS = $220 Au) but you're not just paying for styrene in a cardboard box - you're paying for R&D and state of the art tooling. Like it or not, they are a high-end kit manufacturer, it's like trying to boycott Jaguar to make their cars as cheap as a Ford."

The thing is, how many of these Dragon super-ships do you ever see completed and on the tables at model shows and competitions? And why does it cost more than a Revell 1/350 Bismarck (made in relatively high-wage Poland, and paid for in Euros) plus a set of WEM etch?
 
Someone recently described what he called the 'Hasegawa Syndrome;  to explain why Hasegawa seem to survive and thrive, despite hardly ever releasing any new-tool stuff. They sell to collectors, not builders, and every time they re-release a kit with new decals, there are a certain number of these collectors who absolutely must have the kit to keep their collection complete. And the price charged reflects the lack of pricelelasticity of demand in this market.
 
The Dragon 1/350 Scharnhorst is undoubtedly a good kit. But not £120-worth, especially as the etched set included only includes part of what you need. There are still plenty of ships to build without paying these prices.
 

 

 


 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, January 30, 2011 12:21 PM

Again, I respectfully disagree.  Aoshima released a 1/350 Kongo (1944 version); Fujimi followed with Kongo (1944).  Tamiya released  HMS Prince of Wales in 1/350; Academy did the same.  Tamiya, Academy, and Revell each released Bismarck and Tirpitz in both 1/350 and 1/700 (as did Trumpeter, Matchbox, etc. in 1/700).  How many USS Arizona's are out there?  Look at  Hasegawa's Yukikaze; Tamiya released the same version of the same ship!

I would actually love to see Trumpeter respond to Dragon by releasing a 1/350 straight-stem or early war Scharnhorst.  It could happen.

I would also love to post pictures!  However, there are compatibility issues between my camera and my computer that nobody has been able to figure out.  I therefore have a choice . . . more ship models or a new computer.  They don't pay military retirees and teachers enough for both!  Whistling

Bill Morrison

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