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New German Destroyer...price gouging? Locked

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, February 14, 2011 9:48 PM

potchip

I'm not suggesting people that have a stash always complain about price - not so because they can obviously afford a stash. But rather, those that complain about price, tend to have a stash - because their hobby is around collecting, not building.

As for dragon's PE, I suggested a possible explanation. The short version is they don't give a rat and them not givng a rat about quality of PE does not impact their bottom line, so it is the correct business decision.

The LONG version:

Dragon is a kit manufacturer, and despite what I would like to believe otherwise, majority of kit buyers, ie the market do not build with PE to know better. I would pull random number out of my *** by saying 95% of kits kits ended up on a stash somewhere until they are put up on ebay or garage/estate sale. Thus is the life of a typical model kit.

The logo doens't mean anything (eg ship-wise, Japanese manufacturers do not produce their PEs, they are all outsourced yet all frets comes with their logo. Having a logo means nothing, just like most textile business puts on the logo as the last step.) However I think it is likely Dragon produces their own PE, because they are applying the same style of PE on ships as their armour kits - simple, single relief, thick. The point is, they only need to make them just good enough to attract the 'it includes a nice fret of etch' reviews. 

What's the incremental benefit of adding 'good to use PE' vs 'good to look in the box PE' for dragon? Not much as the majority of the consumers cannot tell the difference.

What's the cost of doing product development and adding the improved PE to every box? Dragon adds too much, the casual modelers (who don't build btw) will cry "we don't use them anyway, why is priced in the kit?" Dragon adds too little, the competitors may add an equally irrelevant but bigger fret and you are at a competitive disadvantage. 

AM sets will be better than dragon's kit stock items.  It is not due by design, but simply business.

AM sets have a different target market: those that seek them out has the intention and/or ability to use them. They are willing to pay a premium, but also tend to be more picky, and more research/correctness is required in the product. Dragon cannot do that because to include AM quality PE in every kit is forcing the average consumer to pay for something they don't want - so dragon cannot charge the same premium price and hence it will be a poor business decision. Nor should they do a 'vanialla' kit and a 'premium' kit - they tried it in their earlier 1/700 releases - I would wager the cost of maintaining two kit lines, for the stockists to keep 2 of the same kit in the inventory etc is not worth the trouble.

You make some valid points but the model builder in me tells me that PE is indeed added to be used (at least theoretically) and is not merely a marketing ploy...I build primarily armor and can tell you that a LOT of the PE in their armored kits do get used...they appear to be about the same quality as what's in their ship kits...in addition, everything in the box gets scrutinized and reviewed...if their PE was really worthless they would catch a lot of heck about it...Also, they were the first manufacturer to include a fair amount of PE in their kits and that is one reason they are seen as the premeir manufacturer in many circles...they forced many companies to follow suit. I mean, using your logic they could also produce kits that don't have as much detail in them, or that fits, and get away with it if it is just to remain in the box and collected.  They know better because even if 1 in a 100 kits actualy gets built, even collectors wouldn't buy 'em cause words (and reviews) spread fast...

Most ship WIPS I've seen of their kits do indeed show the in-box PE being used, but then the modeler having to supplement what comes in the kit w/ AM PE...As cynical as I am I don't really believe they are just chucking-in a fret of PE just so they can say they did---after all, they started the practice, so they are not just keeping up with the Jones'.  Now, you could argue that was their intention all along but I just don't see it. In fact, there PE has become thinner and more usable over the years.   

Lastly, I say this: BOYCOTT Dragon ship models until they include ALL the railings needed  in their SHIP kits!

  • Member since
    July 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Monday, February 14, 2011 10:22 PM

Yeah good luck with your boycott. Are you going to boycott all manufactures until they provide full PE? You are going to find it's going to be really hard to build any models. That's just too funny.

PE is included not as a gimmick, not as a bonus, but to supply parts that can not be made practically using injection molding. Yeah, it's that simple. I have reviewed plenty of ship models and I can tell you that very few  come with everything you need. Spend a few hours going through the reviews and see for yourself.

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/reviews.html

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 12:04 AM

My thoughts, having worked with them, is that Dragon is still trying to "figure out" photo etch.

On one hand you have people like Dave who say the kits are too complex and expensive. At the other end of the spectrum you have Manny saying to include it all. You'll note that many (yes, not all) of the pieces are duplicated in plastic and not just PE, so those who don't want to try the PE radar can use a plastic one.I know that Dragon has some sensitivity towards the cost and notion of separate sets as that was a point of pride with the CVL that was mentioned; the fact that it was pretty much all in one box.

Personally, I'd rather they leave it up to the aftermarket companies as they don't have the same passion and understanding, and frankly artistry, that the likes of Loren Perry (Gold Medal Models) and Peter Hall (White Ensign) have demonstrated with etched brass. Loren won't consider sets for Dragon ships essentially now because he believes there isn't a big enough market with them making their own sets. Those of us who like the high-end stuff lose out, but there is hope that Dragon will compete and put better PE out in their sets and provide full sets. I think that if we see many more double releases such as a Zerstorer that companies will turn to full sets as a form of competition. Right now I don't think there's enough competition for any company to want to do that.

It's not bad, it's just not as good as it could be. Time will hopefully change that.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 3:35 AM

I think Dragon are mis-focussing their efforts when it comes to what PE parts they supply.

Ship's railings are a highly visible and fundamental part of any kit, so go down the route of providing stuff like light AA training handwheels etc?

Much of this stuff involves a much higher skill-set and the patience of a micro surgeon to fit

Why not focus on the highly visible and somewhat simpler-to-fit parts like railings, radar grid array, funnel grill, cranes (if of girder construction). Trumpeter manages to do this and their kits are significantly cheaper here in the UK.

Far better to do this than to provide something which the purchaser has no choice in buying and which they most likely won't use.

As for the figure sets - why only provide only enough to man one lifeboat and then refuse to release them as a separate set? Much better to make the overall cost of the kit lower by omitting them altogether IMHO.

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 5:51 AM

warshipbuilder

I think Dragon are mis-focussing their efforts when it comes to what PE parts they supply.

Why not focus on the highly visible and somewhat simpler-to-fit parts like railings, radar grid array, funnel grill, cranes (if of girder construction). Trumpeter manages to do this and their kits are significantly cheaper here in the UK.

Far better to do this than to provide something which the purchaser has no choice in buying and which they most likely won't use.

As for the figure sets - why only provide only enough to man one lifeboat and then refuse to release them as a separate set? Much better to make the overall cost of the kit lower by omitting them altogether IMHO.

Dragon already did that with their 1/350 German Battleship Scharnhorst kit. The price difference between the plain Jane and premium version is almost $100. (About $45 vs. $140) Both are excellent buys for what the modeler wants.

It may not be practical to offer two versions for a smaller ship kit. In the US, the Dragon's Z-39 destroyer kit is less than $40 in street price. It may not be that much cheaper omitting the PE. I am really surprised that the UK Dragon importer is trying to milk the modellers.

Dragon and Trumpeter price their Germany destroyer kits the same in the US (both $49.95 MSRP). But the Dragon kit are usually discounted more at LHS.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 6:06 AM

keilau

 warshipbuilder:

I think Dragon are mis-focussing their efforts when it comes to what PE parts they supply.

Why not focus on the highly visible and somewhat simpler-to-fit parts like railings, radar grid array, funnel grill, cranes (if of girder construction). Trumpeter manages to do this and their kits are significantly cheaper here in the UK.

Far better to do this than to provide something which the purchaser has no choice in buying and which they most likely won't use.

As for the figure sets - why only provide only enough to man one lifeboat and then refuse to release them as a separate set? Much better to make the overall cost of the kit lower by omitting them altogether IMHO.

 

Dragon already did that with their 1/350 German Battleship Scharnhorst kit. The price difference between the plain Jane and premium version is almost $100. (About $45 vs. $140) Both are excellent buys for what the modeler wants.

It may not be practical to offer two versions for a smaller ship kit. In the US, the Dragon's Z-39 destroyer kit is less than $40 in street price. It may not be that much cheaper omitting the PE. I am really surprised that the UK Dragon importer is trying to milk the modellers.

Dragon and Trumpeter price their Germany destroyer kits the same in the US (both $49.95 MSRP). But the Dragon kit are usually discounted more at LHS.

Well, I'm noy buying that adding a set of simple railing to the destroyer kit would add $45 to the Dragon offeringt...And you suggest it isn't practical to offer different versions of the same kit to market?   How many permutations of the Dragon US destroyer have been released so far w/ very minor differences in most cases?  127???

Given the perceived "closeness" of the Dragon and Trump kits, had Trump been savy enough to add full railings since they beat them to the markt w/ their kit---I'm guessing they would have given Dragon even more of a headache than they are doing now....The next destroyer that comes out by either company w/ full railings may take the day.  Maybe Dragon should addopy their SMART concept to ships: everything you need in the box.  Until then, BOYCOTT DRAGON SHIPS!

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 7:49 AM

I think a boycott would be a waste of time if Trumpeter's and Dragon's kits are the same price in the USA - Here in the UK the price differential is massive - sometimes it's 50% more.

What you pay in USA dollars, we pay in UK pounds. Blame who you want for that.

I cannot influence it, other than to continue to vote with my wallet.

Until Scharnhorst came along,  Dragon didn't make anything I was interested in, so my concern over prices wasn't that great.

Now, I just hope they stick to what they are seemingly good at, and that they continue to churn out US subjects for US buyers at US prices, and leave the stuff in which I am interested to other companies.

At least then, I shall be able to afford them.

  • Member since
    July 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 8:38 AM

I think I am going to boycott Manstein's revenge instead. At least until he adds at least a little intelligence into his posts.

Now to go work on some more non US Navy projects. hehehehe Wink

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 9:22 AM

I guess that means that the 1/350 Gneisenau project is running a bit late.......

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 9:29 AM

ModelWarships

I think I am going to boycott Manstein's revenge instead. At least until he adds at least a little intelligence into his posts.

Now to go work on some more non US Navy projects. hehehehe Wink

Boycott Dragon and MODELWARSHIPS!!!!

  • Member since
    July 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 9:37 AM

I can neither confirm nor deny that. The Scharnhorst and Z-39 were not my projects anyway so don't look for me to do the CAD for any followup kits. I can tell you there is going to be some really big news this year. Some really cool projects are in the works. Not just new versions of existing ships. Zip it!

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 10:00 AM

I can't wait to see them!  I refuse to boycott any model company that is trying to enrich my hobby by providing me with more ship kits in 1/350 scale.  Now, if they would also focus on sailing ships . . . Bang Head

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:00 AM

ModelWarships

I think I am going to boycott Manstein's revenge instead. At least until he adds at least a little intelligence into his posts.

Now to go work on some more non US Navy projects. hehehehe Wink

Tim, I gotta agree - this thread is getting tedious.   Post are a mile wide and an inch deep.

Hope that among the projects which Dragon is looking at is a good plastic Clemson/Wickes 4-piper (appropos of the upcoming centennial of WWI - it will take me at least that long to finish to be ready). 

Hope that the vendors at this weeks show in San Antonio have good deals on Dragon ship kits.  I'll buy an arm full or two

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:06 AM

EdGrune

 ModelWarships:

I think I am going to boycott Manstein's revenge instead. At least until he adds at least a little intelligence into his posts.

Now to go work on some more non US Navy projects. hehehehe Wink

 

Hope that among the projects which Dragon is looking at is a good plastic Clemson/Wickes 4-piper (appropos of the upcoming centennial of WWI - it will take me at least that long to finish to be ready). 

I bet Trumpeter beats 'em to the punch on that 4-piper and will include ALL of the needed railings, and beat them on price at a comparable level of quality and detail...

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 12:42 PM

Tirpitz...

  • Member since
    October 2010
  • From: Arlington, VT
Posted by WallyM3 on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 12:46 PM

Well said!

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Michigan
Posted by ps1scw on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 4:34 PM

What if they all added the type of railing that Academy offered on their OLP FFG-7's

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 5:01 PM

Manstein's revenge

Tirpitz...

 

By Dragon ... Devil

 

By the way, the aforementioned Scharnhorst with the PE and wood deck was the Academy Graf Spee, not Dragon Scharnhorst.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 6:29 PM

Tracy White

 Manstein's revenge:

Tirpitz...

 

 

By Dragon ... Devil

 

Currently under construction...by the way, woulda' been nice to have had the full set of PE railings in the kit...pain in the butt to get an AM set...PREMIUM kit my arsehill...

  • Member since
    July 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 7:32 PM

If it were up to me any USN ship that served in the South Pacific would be done. I spend a lot of my time modeling in 3d now instead of plastic and the ships I like are those that duked it out with the Japs, at Java, Guadalcanal, Leyte Gulf and all over the Pacific. I am sure that someone will do at the very least a Ward. A Russian company was supposed to be working on one, but that appears to be on hold now.

Yeah this thread has gone way overboard. From the subject to the subject matter. I'm sorry I have participated now. I normally just scan the forums to see what the rest of the net is thinking. But I was amazed that someone would actually go through the trouble to register a new account just to bash a kit.

For the record both the Trumpeter and Dragon Z dd's are worth $49 list. I tend to think the extra detail in the Dragon kit makes it a better value, but drop down to Mark's online build of the Trumpeter kit and you can see what an experienced modeler can do with it.

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    October 2010
  • From: Arlington, VT
Posted by WallyM3 on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 7:36 PM

It's mid-February.

Cabin fever.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 7:49 PM

ModelWarships

... both the Trumpeter and Dragon Z dd's are worth $49 list. I tend to think the extra detail in the Dragon kit makes it a better value...

What extra detail are you talking about?

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 10:52 PM

ModelWarships

I can neither confirm nor deny that. The Scharnhorst and Z-39 were not my projects anyway so don't look for me to do the CAD for any followup kits. I can tell you there is going to be some really big news this year. Some really cool projects are in the works. Not just new versions of existing ships. Zip it!

Tell me that I will be able to buy a 1:350 scale Tribal Class destroyer this time next year, or 1:144 scale..

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