New German Destroyer...price gouging?

Well here in the UK the latest price for Dragon's offering is the US equivalent of $82.0105USD.

Meanwhile, Trumpeter's offering comes in at the US equivalent of $37.5887 USD

Neither come with PE railings.

Go figure

Leaving railings out is not a big deal. Most modelers, myself included have an abundant supply of railings. Some of us would rather use the finer railings that most aftermarket companies produce anyway.

If you want to make up your own mind here's a link to our Feb. reviews where both the Dragon and Trumpeter kits are reviewed. Sean reviewed the Trumpeter kit and I did the Dragon one. There are plenty of pics so you can judge for yourself and make your own decisions.

ModelWarships.com February reviews.

Hmmmmm...they both seem to have pros and cons...The Dragon destroyer depicted wasn't operational until '44!!!

Which may mean it wasn't available to guard Tirpitz.. Chuck that loser. (Actually the KM should have had more DDs in the Baltic - 1945 was an almost astounding bloodbath there with refugees fleeing and prisoners being transported - into the arms of Soviet subs and allied aircraft. Most people don't know anything about the nightmare - I can understand that. Does make you wonder.)

Eric

Hmm, nice to see some reviews up of both of the kits. Strange though, no mention of the extra 4 torpedos in the Trump offering.

Jester75

Hmm, nice to see some revies up of both of the kits. Strange though, no mention of the extra 4 torpedos in the Trump offering.

EBergerud

Which may mean it wasn't available to guard Tirpitz.. Chuck that loser. (Actually the KM should have had more DDs in the Baltic - 1945 was an almost astounding bloodbath there with refugees fleeing and prisoners being transported - into the arms of Soviet subs and allied aircraft. Most people don't know anything about the nightmare - I can understand that. Does make you wonder.)

Eric

Probably because Dresden overshadowed all the civilian sinkings combined. But, you make a very valid point.

An destroyers are very, very handy little corks to have around. I served on one for 6 years and we rarely had cold iron.

Before quibbling with Mr. Duke, I'd like to say that I think ModelWarship is a remarkable site from which I have learned a great amount. Double kudos to everyone involved. The fact that I can't figure out a way to send anyone there money only adds to the unique value of the site.

I think on this issue, however, Mr Duke is wrong, probably because to the good people at ModelWarship can't understand a world where most people don't model warships. I don't understand the unenlightened myself, but they exist in pretty large number. I think it's safe to say that ship modelers surpass even armor fans for knowledge of and interest in detail. (Of course, ship modeling is largely about individual vessels - I have decent reference books that name and briefly describe every named vessel in the USN and IJN during WWII - something that would be unthinkable with tanks or aircraft.) So ship fans, many who are thankful just to see a particular vessel in injection, are good candidates for PE and detail sets that cost more than the kits. Lion Roar has an upgrade set for Hasegawa's Mikasa that has 300 PE pieces, metal barrels and a price tag well in excess of the kit. In the aircraft world, a PE fret probably includes rudder peddles. Whether that kind of detail is needed is an open question. But railings are. And if you've never put on a PE railing, it's hard to do. And frankly, I'd guess the percentage of modelers with 350 scale PE railings in their stash is really pretty small. (Might add that I built 3 ships with no railings: had no idea the difference it made. I'll never do another one like that.)

Anyway, this is exactly the kind of thing that I wish ship model producers would pay more attention to. I buy generic fittings from White Ensign and know we're not talking big bucks. I think there are a lot of modelers that do few ships - some that don't do them at all. I'd like the companies to make the experience as rewarding as possible. (Wouldn't hurt for them to think through painting/building progression on instructions. Wonder how many folks build a ship and then try to paint it only to be foiled by a zillion mini-flak guns on the deck.) Indeed, I think certainly any 350 scale ship should come with railings as part of the package. The only reason that they don't I'd guess is that at least some producers also sell detail sets and fear a cut in that business. But nothing will make a ship modeler faster than a good ship model with their name on it. As for the folk that have 350 scale railings just laying around, they will always be interested in PE ash trays to put on PE chart tables to put inside the chart house.

Eric

It's a shame that there are no photos of the finished Trumpeter kit as there are with the Dragon kit.  It would have made for a nice comparison.  Oh well, I'll just have to get both!

Bill

ModelWarships

Who is it? Well it shouldn't be too hard to figure it out, even without the powers of admin or moderator. Just take a look at when they joined and what posts they have contributed to. Of course you can also look at their history on other forums and compare their writing styles. Look for clues like strange behavior such as removing ones own posts in mass, and see if there are similarities in the posting and online behavior. Frankly I don't really care who it is, just surprised that they really think they are fooling anyone but  themselves.

With any great online community there is always some that have nothing to contribute, but negativity.

As I have been deleting many of my posts on shipmodels.info I'm not sure if I should see this as a personal attack or not.  I am deleting my posts from shipmodels.info because I do not like some of the behaviour of  a couple of the moderators there.  I don't think that is particularly strange.  Extreme maybe, but it is reaction to behaviour I see as extreme.  There have been times when I was drawn back to it, but I have always regretted it.  As for being negative, I think there's a lot of "kill the messenger" being done by the Dragon acolytes and I think they are doing themselves no favours by jumping on criticism rather than owning up to dealing with the problem (e.g. the economy instructions on a top of the range kit).

I'm not sure how I can compare "accurcy police's"style with other messages he posted under another name if he has already deleted them.  But Dragon seem to have a habit of creating enemies.

I am only negative about those who seem to take great delight in fingering one's wallet as much as they can for a kit whose contents etc do not reflect the final asking price.

Things might be different in the US, perhaps their agents have to operate in a more competitive market.

It isn't only Dragon's importers/distributors who do this - other brands suffer from similar problems.

Quite how much control the actual manufacturer has over this I do not know, since none have come forward publically.

I also get sick and tired of hearing the oft-trotted out hackneyed excuses about exchange rates/import duties/the oil price ad nauseum.

I'm not a keen fan of sunshine blowing either - for any brand.

Quite who mr accuracy police is, I neither know nor care, but he has drawn our attention to something which is now being looked into.

The findings will be very interesting.

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/dkm/dd/z39-dr/z39-Art-04.jpg - did not match any documents..................

Are you just deleting posts or have you tried contacting Tim or Sean to complain about the moderators in question?

warshipbuilder

Quite who mr accuracy police is, I neither know nor care, but he has drawn our attention to something which is now being looked into.

The findings will be very interesting.

 

Huh? I'm confused. Did Accuracy Police's random off the cuff comment spark a bipartisan congressional commission or something? What 'something is now being looked into'? By whom?

Manstein's revenge

Manny

I'm not sure what you're postin'... but it ain't showin'....

warshipbuilder

Well here in the UK the latest price for Dragon's offering is the US equivalent of $82.0105USD.

Meanwhile, Trumpeter's offering comes in at the US equivalent of $37.5887 USD

Neither come with PE railings.

Go figure

Both has a MSRP of $49.95 in the US. I can usually get a deeper discount for Dragon than for Trumpeter at my LHS.

The $23 price for the Trumpeter 5321 at Great Models web store last week is gone now.

ModelWarships

Leaving railings out is not a big deal. Most modelers, myself included have an abundant supply of railings. Some of us would rather use the finer railings that most aftermarket companies produce anyway.

If you want to make up your own mind here's a link to our Feb. reviews where both the Dragon and Trumpeter kits are reviewed. Sean reviewed the Trumpeter kit and I did the Dragon one. There are plenty of pics so you can judge for yourself and make your own decisions.

ModelWarships.com February reviews.

Good reviews with lots of pictures. It is still difficult to judge the finer quality of kits by picture. Reading the text, I seem to sense that Tim Dike is a little more enthusiastic about Dragon than Sean Hert about the Trumpeter kit. But it could also just be the writing style.

I, for one, would like to see all railings included in the kits...

Let me grab the 200th response . . . I agree that, if any PE is included, it should be the railings.

Bill Morrison

Manstein's revenge

I, for one, would like to see all railings included in the kits...

It would be nice to have the railings too. However, if I have to choose between the two, the PE in the kit now is better. It is easy to find 1/350 railing for WW2 ships, but not those in the kit.

Anyone know the reason that Dragon left out the railing PE?

keilau

Manstein's revenge:

I, for one, would like to see all railings included in the kits...

 

It would be nice to have the railings too. However, if I have to choose between the two, the PE in the kit now is better. It is easy to find 1/350 railing for WW2 ships, but not those in the kit.

Anyone know the reason that Dragon left out the railing PE?

Manstein's revenge

 

My guess is a little "kickback" from the AM manufacturers...I only say this because reasoning price as a factor is a bunch of hogwash, IMO...I mean, they can afford to add little crewman and the more "complex" PE but they can't add a fifty-cent fret of generic railings???  Come on...

 

Kreigsmarine kickback? Say it ain't so Manny, say it ain't so.

Actually, that may make it even more authentic, or was it only the Luftwaffe that saw favouritism in awarding of contracts...

No kickbacks involved. Railings will cost a bit more than $0.50. Railings will be more involved than just generic railings. If included in a Dragon kit, they will be pre-cut to length. I'm sure other MFG's are the same. The longer frets required for the PE raises the cost quite a bit. Price a few frets and you will see for yourself. So why add it if most modelers will not even use it? I prefer to see them available separately as I would probably opt for the dedicated PE makers set.

So how much extra for the kit will you pay for a full PE set that includes railings?

ModelWarships

No kickbacks involved. Railings will cost a bit more than $0.50. Railings will be more involved than just generic railings. If included in a Dragon kit, they will be pre-cut to length. I'm sure other MFG's are the same. The longer frets required for the PE raises the cost quite a bit. Price a few frets and you will see for yourself. So why add it if most modelers will not even use it? I prefer to see them available separately as I would probably opt for the dedicated PE makers set.

So how much extra for the kit will you pay for a full PE set that includes railings?

Now they may just be holding the railings out so they can sell one of their limited edition upgrade sets later on to everyone, ala their US destroter of a few years ago...regardless, the reason is $$$... 

As far as your question, I would pay $5 to $10 more for "pre-measured" railings if they were in the kit...a little more if they were pre-bent...

Point is well taken. You can get extra fine 350 scale generic "extrafine" railings from White Ensign for about $12. What I'm not sure, however, is what a company could do if it wanted "basic" railings. White Ensign's 700 scale generic railings/ladders (enough to build a 700 scale WWI BB and then some as I found out) go for $2.50. I'm not an engineer, but I'd guess that if a model company went to a PE maker (these are small operations I'd guess) and said, "make me a basic 350 scale railing and lots of it" the price would not be high, especially if an already designed effort was acceptable.  I'll stand correction, but I believe that Dragon's first 700 Tirpitz had PE railings and that kit was not expensive. To be honest, I'd turn the equation around. I'd be glad to skip the detailed stuff and buy that as an option and have railings included. Indeed, I'd say that from the display point of view, railings are more important than every other PE piece put together. (I had a PE set for Iron Duke and started skipping little pieces because I couldn't see them on the kit. And that was a very modest detail set.) Of course, you're back to the question of at what point detail goes from very important to "for detail fans only." For me, you'd reach that point very quickly. But let's face it, if a company is offering its own PE, like Dragon will, it has little incentive to remove the incentive.

Everything I know about retail I think would be in action here. The costs of production equipment is there, as is design. But that's basic capitalization and a one time expenditure. I can certainly see why companies would want to keep their kits in play for the longest possible time. (Noticed a new add in this FSM for rerelease of Tamiya's 70's tanks.) The real expenses would come in marketing and getting them to the seller. So supply and demand kicks in pretty quick. I was checking the prices on the dueling destroyers. What struck me is how few people had them. What else struck me was how much more a 350 scale Dragon DD costs now, relative to six months ago when I bought Laffey for about $20. A lot of them are on back order. So, those of us with a stash can wait until Sprue Brothers and Scale Hobbyist get them in: and watch the sale page on Dragon. (Ditto with White Ensign - I've bought some kits at very reasonable price from them.)

Eric 

Ironically, those with a stash are typically exactly the type of people who want the kit NOW and complain about prices. Had then build most kit they bought they would not have this stash problem.

FWIW the railings on 1/700 Tirpitz only covers the upper structures, not the deck. Don't ask me why, I'm puzzled myself because the PE is of such low quality to begin with you cannot possibly do a mix-match with after market PE sets. Also FWIW, those that actually tried to use railings on the older dragon kits, tends to find them thick/overscale, or oversimplified/plainly wrong anyway. So the whole PE attached with the older dragon kits were not viewed as a positive. In the past, I will only use dragon PE if I decide to go OOB and turn a blind eye to references.

As to why, perhaps dragon cannot be bothered to produce 1/700 scale PE. We don't know whether their PE was produced inhouse or outsourced, but I'd guess majority goes into armour rather than ships.  Then you add in the complexity of having to provide aftersale service of parts...Who knows, maybe they already priced their products to the niche of: those that use PE, don't find their PE useful at all, and those that don't use PE, can't tell better. Both types of consumers will be paying for the PE as part of the package. Good for dragon.

potchip

Ironically, those with a stash are typically exactly the type of people who want the kit NOW and complain about prices. Had then build most kit they bought they would not have this stash problem.

FWIW the railings on 1/700 Tirpitz only covers the upper structures, not the deck. Don't ask me why, I'm puzzled myself because the PE is of such low quality to begin with you cannot possibly do a mix-match with after market PE sets. Also FWIW, those that actually tried to use railings on the older dragon kits, tends to find them thick/overscale, or oversimplified/plainly wrong anyway. So the whole PE attached with the older dragon kits were not viewed as a positive. In the past, I will only use dragon PE if I decide to go OOB and turn a blind eye to references.

As to why, perhaps dragon cannot be bothered to produce 1/700 scale PE. We don't know whether their PE was produced inhouse or outsourced, but I'd guess majority goes into armour rather than ships.  Then you add in the complexity of having to provide aftersale service of parts...Who knows, maybe they already priced their products to the niche of: those that use PE, don't find their PE useful at all, and those that don't use PE, can't tell better. Both types of consumers will be paying for the PE as part of the package. Good for dragon.

I'm not suggesting people that have a stash always complain about price - not so because they can obviously afford a stash. But rather, those that complain about price, tend to have a stash - because their hobby is around collecting, not building.

As for dragon's PE, I suggested a possible explanation. The short version is they don't give a rat and them not givng a rat about quality of PE does not impact their bottom line, so it is the correct business decision.

The LONG version:

Dragon is a kit manufacturer, and despite what I would like to believe otherwise, majority of kit buyers, ie the market do not build with PE to know better. I would pull random number out of my *** by saying 95% of kits kits ended up on a stash somewhere until they are put up on ebay or garage/estate sale. Thus is the life of a typical model kit.

The logo doens't mean anything (eg ship-wise, Japanese manufacturers do not produce their PEs, they are all outsourced yet all frets comes with their logo. Having a logo means nothing, just like most textile business puts on the logo as the last step.) However I think it is likely Dragon produces their own PE, because they are applying the same style of PE on ships as their armour kits - simple, single relief, thick. The point is, they only need to make them just good enough to attract the 'it includes a nice fret of etch' reviews. 

What's the incremental benefit of adding 'good to use PE' vs 'good to look in the box PE' for dragon? Not much as the majority of the consumers cannot tell the difference.

What's the cost of doing product development and adding the improved PE to every box? Dragon adds too much, the casual modelers (who don't build btw) will cry "we don't use them anyway, why is priced in the kit?" Dragon adds too little, the competitors may add an equally irrelevant but bigger fret and you are at a competitive disadvantage. 

AM sets will be better than dragon's kit stock items.  It is not due by design, but simply business.

AM sets have a different target market: those that seek them out has the intention and/or ability to use them. They are willing to pay a premium, but also tend to be more picky, and more research/correctness is required in the product. Dragon cannot do that because to include AM quality PE in every kit is forcing the average consumer to pay for something they don't want - so dragon cannot charge the same premium price and hence it will be a poor business decision. Nor should they do a 'vanialla' kit and a 'premium' kit - they tried it in their earlier 1/700 releases - I would wager the cost of maintaining two kit lines, for the stockists to keep 2 of the same kit in the inventory etc is not worth the trouble.