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New German Destroyer...price gouging? Locked

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  • Member since
    January 2011
  • From: Melbourne Uh-strail-yuh
Posted by Kormoran on Sunday, January 30, 2011 12:21 PM

I respect your point Warshipbuilder, but not sure I agree. I think there's always going to be a market for mid + high-end, provided the subject isn't too obscure. I'd lay odds that  Academy's Graf Spee outsells Trumpeter's at least 3 to 1. Similar to the Z-ships, one is 1/2 the price but still plenty good enough for most modelers, while the hard-cores are  happy to pay a premium for a slightly better kit.

I've already got a Trumpy on the way, which is what brought me to this thread in the first place. I wanted to see how much PE I need to get - I'm not overly fussy, ladders, stairs and rails are enough for me.

Personally, I wish one of them made a 1/350 RN destroyer instead, then I'd be buying both! From the looks of it the Trumpy will be more than adequate for me.

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: N. Georgia
Posted by Jester75 on Sunday, January 30, 2011 12:54 PM

I too will look forward to a RN destroyer release. Tribal or V&W or whatever. MIght actually get to build what keeps sinking me when I play SIlent Hunter III!!!

Eric

 

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: N. Georgia
Posted by Jester75 on Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:31 PM

warshipguy

I would also love to post pictures!  However, there are compatibility issues between my camera and my computer that nobody has been able to figure out. 

uh huh....

Eric

 

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by ddp59 on Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:02 PM

bill, what  compatibility issues are you having between the camera & computer?

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:02 PM

The computer does not recognize the driver, no matter how many times I load it, remove it, load it again, etc.  I have tried the disk that came with the camera; similarly, I have tried downloading the driver from the website.  I have also taken it to my school's tech rep, who cannot get it to work, either.

Bill

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:41 PM

What format is the camera memory?  SD? Have you tried a card reader?

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:48 PM

warshipbuilder
"My Trumpeter Hood sits with it's hull mostly but not quite sanded because I got tired of essentially a FIVE FOOT SEAM that fit like crap."

Then you should have taken it back for exchange - mine is fine.

Why would I take it back for exchange? The hobby is about building; filling and sanding is part of that. You and another poster appear to have misunderstood my point; I was tired of working through a particular problem. I'm not suggesting that I shouldn't have to, or that their kit was garbage, I was comparing one aspect of the two kits. Dragon's better fit meant I was able to get through that part of my Scharnhorst build without burning out on it. I have issues with burnout, but that's not Trumpeter's fault. It just means that the kit has less value to me due to the increased work I need to do.

warshipbuilder

"Woes of the fit between Trumpeter upper and lower hull pieces are legion."

Care to highlight some reviews which say as much? I have only found one from the subject range in which I am interested.

Then you need to expand your research. I suppose that if it's not in  your interest it doesn't exist? Here's some posts for you:

Trumpeter 1/350th CV-2 Lexington:
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64156
http://battlefleetmodels.yuku.com/topic/498

Trumpeter 1/350th BB-55 North Carolina
http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=1858

Trumpeter 1/350th BB-59 Massachusetts
http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/misc/ships/tmcmass.htm

Trumpeter 1/350th CA-38 San Francisco:
http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/misc/ships/tmcsf.htm

Please note those are from all over the web and not just ModelWarships, so I am not pulling "slanted, biased" reviews.

[quote user="warshipbuilder"]What you fail to mention is that any initial price advantage can be compromised by import duty at the destination end.[/quote]

"Can be," if you happen to live in a country that has them. I fail to see how this is any manufacturer's fault.

warshipbuilder
And I wouldn't say that Trumpeter's current company position is "untenable" - would you?

No, but I wouldn't base my argument on one ship model either.

warshipbuilder
Then I suspect that we will see more comments like these across the web.

I agree. They were written by people who don't want the detail.

[quote user="warshipbuilder"]As has been said elsewhere - "I wonder how many of these kits will actually be completed, rather than end up as $200 doorstops"?[/quote]

You can say that with every kit, but it would probably be better if you didn't distort the price.. We've already seen completed kits in multiple places:
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/bb/dkm/scharnhorst-350-pvb/pvb-index.html
http://www.finescale.com/Products and Reviews/Kit Reviews/2010/12/Dragon DKM Scharnhorst 1943.aspx (also the same build here)
http://web.ipmsusa3.org/content/german-battleship-scharnhorst-1943-smart-kit
That's what a minute long google search revealed.

warshipbuilder
What I would like to see, is a kit whose build provides for a relaxing and enjoyable experience rather than a very expensive and frustrating one.

Plenty of them out there.

[quote user="Konigwolf13"]My goodness I'm about to blaspheme Tracy, While not a ship kit I'm about to enhance a Dragon kit with parts from an Academy AngryBang HeadConfused[/quote]

I ain't God so slander away. Just remember that it's easier to stay uncontroversial the less you post. I never did this because I was after anyone's approval, so you haven't done much more than mystify me.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, January 30, 2011 5:11 PM

Tracy,

I have not tied a card reader but will do so. Thanks for the suggestion!

Bill

  • Member since
    March 2010
Posted by shoot&scoot on Sunday, January 30, 2011 6:06 PM

Re. camera/computer compatibillity.  I have an older Nikon Coolpix that my computer (Windows XP) will not recognize even after loading the disc that came with the camera.  I picked up a card reader and now pull the memory card from the camera and run it through the reader to load pictures to the computer.  It's an extra step but it works.  Picked up the card reader from Radio Shack for about $20.00.

                                                                                                Pat.

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:13 PM

Be interesting to be a fly on the wall during the meetings that lead to the "go" on a model project. Why do companies approach the market the way they do? No small matter because in our day, the differences between brands is getting quite substantial. What would be really interesting to know is to what degree makers pay attention to the boards and reviews. In the book world good reviews help sales (word of mouth is probably better for some genres) and I don't doubt it is here too. Now, I never buy a kit without checking the reviews and the boards. Must admit that many kits in my stash were bought in the enthusiasm of reentering the hobby and were chosen for the wrong reasons. I wish I was reading reviews from day one. But I wish I was reading all of them and checking the boards too. Let me make some points.

1. The gold standard among reviewers (this includes Osprey books and often the reviews in FSM) is detail. Within limits this makes sense. None of us here models space ships or doll houses. (Both hobbies of great sophistication BTW - not to mention railroads.) So if one is going to model a tank, ship or plane it is connected with something real and should represent it. This is especially true if "history tripping" is part of the hobby. The question is "how much" and "what type." No answers to either of these questions. If recreating a real object to in the greatest possible detail is the goal then the road there requires a very high part count. This is Dragon's road and it has many fans. I don't think that a contemporary Dragon kit can be considered expensive if you figure in "modeling per hour." If you're going to score Scharnhorst or Independence (both with over 1200 parts) you won't finish it in a weekend. This gets a little murky with PE. Dragon is claiming that one of their new uber multi-media kits decreases or removes the incentive to get aftermarket stuff. No small thing there. I have Mikasa from Hasegawa with a very reasonable part count of under 500. If you want the Lion Roar detail set you get 300 PE pieces - plus the metal barrels and it costs more than the kit. Add them together and you have a Mikasa with more detail than a Dragon. And a kit that costs a ton of money. And a kit with 300 PE pieces - which might send some sane people running for cover. However, there's a down side here. If you start with a simpler kit that goes together nicely you have the option of paying the extra money and going the extra mile if you want. Dragon sticks you with the mile. BTW: if there is one thing I wish would appear in every review and on every box it's part count. I know that some kits have a lot of parts that are unneeded, but it still tells you a lot about the kit.

2. Detail will get you detail. Does it get you a better kit? Not sure you can generalize. I've only done Dragon armor, although I have their 350 Laffey and it looks good, with it's 400 parts, although not better than my Hasegawa Yukikase with 170. So when I think of Dragon I think of "Magic Tracks." Are they good? I don't think they're worth the effort, and will be worth the effort  only if they're done correctly. Here's one of the down sides of high part count. Every part can lead to a screw-up. Fit on Dragon kits in my experience is usually very good - but not good enough to avoid some dicey moments. (Here is why Dragon's sub-standard instructions are a serious negative. I personally would be glad to pay $5 more for a Dragon kit with Tamiya instructions - it would be invaluable when trying to weave through all of the various options available. Also help if you knew where the parts were supposed to go and how a major sub section should look after completion. Complex kits and bad instructions are a horrible mix.) What has struck me about Dragon is that despite the startling detail found in the parts, is that you can run into serious problems with "mission critical" fits. (You get exactly the same thing with Eduard aircraft. They look terrific on the sprue. They have unusual detail. And somewhere, sometime, you will flirt with an ulcer or heart attack because something really important doesn't fit.) This is why I'd take a newer Tamiya tank over a Dragon any day. It's also why I'd take a newer Tamiya aircraft over an Eduard, Dragon or Zvezda. When crunch times come, major Tamiya fits work and usually work astonishingly well. Maybe this will not be the case in the future, and maybe it's not the case for every kit now. But if you're looking for a clean build, you're probably not going to go with a Dragon. Not sure you get it with a Trumpie or Academy either. But at least you've got fewer chances to go wrong. 

3. The definition of "good" changes with modeling skills. The folks that want a 1200 part model, by and large, probably know what they're doing. So if they run into a problem, they probably have the skills to cope: they might even enjoy the challenge. This road has some unexpected turns in the world of ship building. Some of the very best ship modelers might well get their jollies out of buying a 50 year old mold and essentially rebuilding the thing from ground up. Ironically, I'm not sure that the real fanatics are big buyers of after market stuff, unless you define resin as after market. A lot of them think nothing is more fun than building a mast out of brass. Or scratch building the superstructure out of Evergreen. And putting in textured Evergreen for a new deck - naturally. Or scratch build a 96 scale Iron Duke and put RC into it (check Ship Modelers Scratch build for an example). So some of the best modelers on earth maybe do three models a year. They're also the kind of models I wouldn't attempt unless someone put a gun to my head. On the other end of the scale, a clean build, even if it has lower part count, still leaves the modeler with a very good canvas for painting, weathering or building dios. All of this should be to the good. In the real world it can cause trouble if buyers are reading reviews and reviewers are judging a kit largely on the "gold standard." A really good example is the Zvezda BF-109F that recently came out. FSM gave the kit a glowing review: many of the boards went along. Many fine modelers think it's the best 109 kit ever made. (That says a lot if you do airplanes.) But if you look at the boards closely (I say this as a Zvezda fan) you'll see that the kit is terrific if you're a very good modeler. If you're not, hold onto the hat.

4. Pushing yourself is good - sometimes. I do get irritated when people on the boards implicitly look down on "shake and bake" kits because the maker assumes buyers want something that assembles properly. But I suppose it's true that you'll never get better if you don't get outside the comfort zone. (The reluctance to do so, methinks, explains why ship modelers exist in smaller numbers than aviation and armor builders. I'm not saying that building a ship is harder, but it is more time consuming than other genres things being remotely equal.) I did that in my last kit when I was employing PE in large scale for the first time, doing major structural surgery and rigging with stretched sprue. It was fun and I'm a better modeler for the experience. But it also told me that I suffer from project fatigue. It took me a month to rebuild the old Iron Duke and I was tired of it at the end. (Same thing happened with my last Dragon tank.) I won't be a candidate for Dragon's Scharnhorst or Independence. Valuable thing to know. And when I do Mikasa, I think I'll stick to maybe metal guns and generic PE - we'll skip the 9 sprues from Lion Roar. And I'm glad my Trumpie 350 San Francisco is sitting there with under 300 parts - looks very good too.

5. Nobody is going to die of boredom, but I companies do a little better at picking good ships with interesting or important records. For a ship to get modeled it really helps that it suffered from a calamity or was simply really really big. (Hood, Bismarck, Arizona, Missouri, Yamato, or, heaven help us, Mutsu.) A lot gets lost in the wash. Maybe WWI is ancient history, but no British Dreadnaughts in 350 scale? The USN has not been well served either. The lack of CV6 is near scandal. But where's the first Helena? Of all the DDs out there had fine records, but the only star Fletcher. (Of course RN DDs aren't there at all in 350.) Where are the guys that did the heavy lifting like Sterret, O'Brien, Maury or Charles Ausburne (or even Saterlee)? Maybe if we've got an Independence we'll get a Princeton. Still I'm glad Dragon's building 1300 part ships. Just hope Academy or others remembers those of us that would like to take off a digit from the total.

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:30 PM

EBergerud

This is why I'd take a newer Tamiya tank over a Dragon any day. It's also why I'd take a newer Tamiya aircraft over an Eduard, Dragon or Zvezda. When crunch times come, major Tamiya fits work and usually work astonishingly well. Maybe this will not be the case in the future, and maybe it's not the case for every kit now. But if you're looking for a clean build, you're probably not going to go with a Dragon. Not sure you get it with a Trumpie or Academy either. But at least you've got fewer chances to go wrong. 

Very interesting point and I somewhat agree (but not totally); however, what is killing (and has been for a decade) Tamiya is the long periods between new releases, and they are slowing down even more if anything...

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:01 PM

I don't know, Tamiya has been cranking out the IJN cruisers lately at a good rate.  Pre and post Midway Mogami, the Mikuma, and now the Tone.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:31 PM

stikpusher

I don't know, Tamiya has been cranking out the IJN cruisers lately at a good rate.  Pre and post Midway Mogami, the Mikuma, and now the Tone.

That's just it...if you look away from their Japanese warship offerings it gets really lean...when is the last time they released a new tank...a new a/c...???  It has taken Dragon and Trump to boldy go where no others have gone...who else would have released a 350th German destroyer???

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:59 PM

I would have figured on Revell Germany doing a Zerstorer on the heels of their new Bismark and Tirpitz. But perhaps the Chinese are carrying over their fondness for WWII German subjects into 1/350 ships. And while I am not too keen on some of the pricing (this new Zerstorer not among those) I am happy to see more subjects.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 31, 2011 2:21 PM

Did I mention I love the Tirpitz?

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, January 31, 2011 2:46 PM

Well with the Zerstorer, you can have a whole DKM family in 1/350 now: Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Graf Spee, Prinz Eugen, Z-34, Type VII and IX U-Boats, Schnellboats... All that is missing is a light cruiser...Pirate

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 31, 2011 2:49 PM

The Tirpitz I love is the Dragon one in 700th, PREMIUM Edition...what a nice kit...

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: San Francisco, CA
Posted by telsono on Monday, January 31, 2011 3:38 PM

I'm getting in a little late on this discussion, but one thing that gets me is when the distributors complain about import tarriffs on models. From what I have been told by Customs Inspectors that I have worked with there isn't any. On toys (which includes plastic models) in general there isn't any tarriffs. That is one of the reasons that I will buy from shops overseas, there isn't any customs Duty. If they say there is, show me the TSUSA code from the schedule of tarriffs.

Mike T.

Beware the hobby that eats.  - Ben Franklin

Do not fear mistakes. You will know failure. Continue to reach out. - Ben Franklin

The U.S. Constitution  doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. - Ben Franklin

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 31, 2011 3:44 PM

telsono

I'm getting in a little late on this discussion, but one thing that gets me is when the distributors complain about import tarriffs on models. From what I have been told by Customs Inspectors that I have worked with there isn't any. On toys (which includes plastic models) in general there isn't any tarriffs. That is one of the reasons that I will buy from shops overseas, there isn't any customs Duty. If they say there is, show me the TSUSA code from the schedule of tarriffs.

Mike T.

Wait a minute---our hobby is considered "toys"?

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: San Francisco, CA
Posted by telsono on Monday, January 31, 2011 3:59 PM

Yes Manny, in reference to customs Duties. And as long if it is duty free, I don't care what they call it.

Mike T.

Beware the hobby that eats.  - Ben Franklin

Do not fear mistakes. You will know failure. Continue to reach out. - Ben Franklin

The U.S. Constitution  doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. - Ben Franklin

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Monday, January 31, 2011 4:02 PM

Yes - toys, although if you buy from Dragon, very expensive toys.

I well remember their 1/700 Tirpitz with it's vinyl hull parts!- I was unfortunate to be suckered into buying one.

After opening the box (and quickly closing it again) I unloaded the kit on ebay.

No one has yet come forward to explain how Revell's 1/350 Bismarck + a set of WEM PE (made in relatively high-wage Poland, and paid for in Euros)  is cheaper than Dragon's 1/350 Scharnhorst.........

Oh, and Revell did do a Zerstorer, albeit in 1/44 scale and ex-USN. I believe that they also still have the original Matchbox 1/700 Narvik moulds too.

But yes, If RoG did a 1/350 Zerstorer to the same standard as their Bismarck kit, that would be great, not to mention cheap!

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 31, 2011 4:06 PM

warshipbuilder

 

I well remember their 1/700 Tirpitz with it's vinyl hull parts!- I was unfortunate to be suckered into buying one.

Well the PREMIUM edition has replaces the vinyl parts w/ styrene ones and they also threw in some nice PE...I'm not a DRAGON cheerleader, as I buy from Trump and others as well, but I give 'em their props when they deserve 'em... 

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Monday, January 31, 2011 4:44 PM

Looks like the Chinese companies are getting greedy. Under current Chinese manufacturing, those kits are probably costing them peanuts to make and passing the big price tag on to us. They are sitting back and laughing. Revell of Germany has just released a beautifully detailed Arado 196 float plane with a complete engine, super detailed cockpit and folding wings in 1/32 scale. Just got one at my LHS for $33. If this would have been a Trumpeter kit it would have been in the $150 range. 

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Monday, January 31, 2011 5:19 PM

There may be a little bit of that going on, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Scharnhorst kit from Dragon left their factory gates at say $15 a kick.

It's when the kits reach our respective shores that the greed kicks in, and this happens even before your local LHS gets it's hands on a consignment.

 

Revell's new 1/32 float-plane is certainly a stunner and the price is more in line with what we should be paying.

Maybe this might be because Revell do much of their own distribution and thus charge a lower mark-up.

Revell's Bismarck kit is presently priced over here in the UK at between £60-£70GBP.

Their own PE set produced by Eduard is priced at around £23GBP.

Contrast this with Dragon's Scharnhorst at £129.99GBP and you don't even get ships railings included in the PE set.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: San Francisco, CA
Posted by telsono on Monday, January 31, 2011 5:54 PM

The distributors jack up the prices alot. That is why companies like Lucky Models in Hong Kong can sell so low. They buy direct from the factory, no middleman to pay. I bought two kits from them for the price of a single copy from here, and that included the shipping!

Mike T.

Beware the hobby that eats.  - Ben Franklin

Do not fear mistakes. You will know failure. Continue to reach out. - Ben Franklin

The U.S. Constitution  doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. - Ben Franklin

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Monday, January 31, 2011 6:17 PM

Have you seen what Luckymodel are asking for Dragon's Scharnhorst recently?

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 31, 2011 6:55 PM

...no...

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Monday, January 31, 2011 7:05 PM

$199.99!!

And that's before shipping is added......

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Monday, January 31, 2011 8:02 PM

Not sure that Dragon can be cursed for high prices. I was just checking Scale Hobbyist which is the cheapest place in the US to buy kits that I know of for 350 scale BBs.  Prices range from $28 for the Lindberg Bismarck (wonder how old that one is) to the Hasegawa Ise for $284. Obviously fans of new Japanese BBs are willing to chuck big bucks. And the part count on some of those pushes 1000. Probably a niche market, but the Japanese Navy has its fans and some of these kits are probably very good. (I know my Mikasa looks terrific. Wonder how long a bad company would make in the Japanese model market?)  Revell has their Bismarck at $78. Dragon's Scharnhorst is $112. Academy's Bismarck/Tirpitz kind of stand out at $38. Anyone know if Academy has a sweetheart relationship with Tamiya? I read that gossip concerning on another board. And of course the Tamiya oldies are in there at about $60. Must say that their KGV looks pretty tempting to me. (Of course KGV both fought a good war and survived - surprised there are any kits of it at all. Prince of Wales of course - it was involved in two calamities.) I haven't looked for a review of the Academy Uber Graf Spee which weighs in at $89 but includes a wooden deck, metal guns and lots of PE. Anyway, let's not forget that Scharnhorst was a proper BB - not an overblown cruiser like Graf Spee, with a displacement and dimensions that make it looks a lot like South Dakota armed with BB guns. And it is new. So I wouldn't expect it to be inexpensive. Lack of PE deck railing though strikes me as mocking the "multi-media" concept. As I recall their 700 Tirpitz came with PE railings and was under $20.

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    January 2011
Posted by IntolerantOfFools on Monday, January 31, 2011 8:09 PM

In general Trumpeter ship kits suck. Overscale and soft detail is the norm. Many egregious errors due to piss poor research. Fit on a par with 1960's Lindberg/Hawk/Revell/Airfix kits. For every half-decent kit (they never rise above that level) they release 2 plastic equivalents of steaming piles of fetid ***.

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