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Revell 1/90 Nina Completed

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  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Thursday, November 28, 2013 8:37 PM

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Just a couple of update photos for the Nina.  Sorry the photos are so dark, I actually was using the flash…..

Enjoy,

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Saturday, November 16, 2013 10:56 PM

Here are a couple more pics.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:53 PM

Since I am winding down with the Thomas build I thought it was time to start working on these again.  The Nina has the quarter/poop deck glued down and the deck for the Pinta is installed.

Enjoy,

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, February 6, 2013 7:52 PM

Thank you Rob, Sub, GM and Prof T for the input and photos.  As I mentioned on the Santa Maria thread, I finally found an affordable copy of X. Pastor's "The Ships of Christopher Columbus" and have been reading it or maybe devouring it is a better description.  A lot of good information.  I'll start posting again and thank you all again for the help,

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, January 21, 2013 4:32 PM

subfixer

A lateen rigged vessel's sail doesn't necessarily have to be unbound and shifted. A lateen rigged Sunfish sailboat simply tacks with the boom and spar remaining on the same side. On a starboard tack the sail is held off of the mast by the wind and when on a port tack the sail is pressed on the mast by the wind. Chafing is not too much of a problem with dacron sails and imagine that chafing gear may aleviate wear on a canvas sail.

I am not implying that a caravel did do this, but that it could be possible.

Lee

I believe that's the way feluccas do it.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, January 18, 2013 11:31 AM

"Pull both ends taut, so the bight gets yanked under the seizing"

That sentence made the concept *click*!  

Thanks, Jtilley!  

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, January 18, 2013 7:05 AM

There were various ways to rig a lateen yard.  The only one I've seen in operation is the mizzen yard of the replica of the Susan Constant, at Jamestown. 

That yard is rigged (quite accurately, I think) with a fairly simple "peak halyard" tackle running from the upper end of the yard to a block on the crosstrees, and then to a belaying point on the deck.  The sail is rigged with three or four "brails," which run from grommets stitched into the foot of the sail to blocks on the yard, and then to the deck.  Two tackles called (oddly enough) "bowlines" run from the lower end of the yard to blocks secured to the aftermost main shroud on each side; they're used to swing the yard back and forth.  The other major piece of rigging is the sheet, which runs from the lower aft corner of the sail to the deck.

A couple of times when my students and I have been in Jamestown on field trips, a staff member has taught four or five of the students how to handle the mizzen sail.  The first step is to slack off the tacks and the sheet.  Then the brails are hauled up, turning the sail into a loose bundle on the yard.  The peak halyard is then hauled taut, bringing the yard vertical next to the mast.  Then one or two people grab the bottom end of the yard and walk it around the after side of the mast to the other side.  The peak halyard and the brails are slacked off.  The sheet and bowlines are hauled taut, and now the sail is ready to handle on the new tack.

The Susan Constant has a mizzen stay; it doesn't interfere with the process of taking in and resetting the mizzen because the yard is walked around the after side of the mast.  Whether Columbus's ships had mizzen stays I don't know - and I don't think anybody else knows for sure either.  But there was no practical reason why they couldn't.

I once asked the "captain" of the Susan Constant  how long that evolution took (wiith with a crew of genuine sailors instead of landlubbing college students).  He said two or three guys could do it in one or two minutes.  (Obviously it would take more crew in a bigger ship, but I don't imagine the time would change much.)  He also said that when the Susan Constant was out on a routine sail in the James River and Hampton Roads, with lots of tacking to be done, he simply didn't bother to set the mizzen.  He said the ship handles ok without it, as long as the spritsail isn't set.  (I have a sneaking suspicion that the carefully concealed diesel engine helps a bit.)

Hiding the ends of a seizing gets harder as the line gets smaller.  The usual full-size practice (as usual, it's difficult to describe ropework verbally) is to start the process by forming a long, skinny bight (unsecured loop) of the seizing line and hold it with one hand alongside the rope or spar being seized.  Wind the seizing line around the rope or spar, taking it around the bight.  When you have enough turns, pass the end of the seizing line through the bight.  Pull both ends taut, so the bight gets yanked under the seizing (and clamped by it to the rope or spar being served).  Snip off the ends and tuck them under the seizing.

On a moderate-sized ship model that method works pretty well if you're seizing a relatively large rope or wrapping the line around a relatively large spar (e.g., the wooldings on a mast).  A touch of white glue or CA will hold everything in place.  For smaller applications, in which the line is thin, slippery, and droopy, I usually just pass each end under a couple of turns of the serving, pull them taut, apply a tiny drop of white glue, let it dry, and snip off the ends of the serving line as close as I can (frequently resorting to a razor blade to do it). 

Hope that hellps a little.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:03 PM

Steve, I'd love to see that seizing page you mentioned....I've looked around a little, but I can't find a good description of how to *hide* the ends of the line...just something I need to figure out...

Dave

ps-Got my Imai Pirate ship in the mail today....Sa-Weet!  So obvious that it's just the Spanish Galleon, but they removed a big ol' piece of a sprue to take out the base and Spanish Galleon nameplate, and then included an extra sprue including a Pirate Ship nameplate on the side...plus BONUS, at the factory somebody accidentaly threw in an extra sprue of the blocks, anchors, shields and pinrails! Extra parts!

Sorry for the hijack...

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Thursday, January 17, 2013 7:08 PM

Hello Lee,

The lateen sail had a very long life, and on full square riggers could be found into the 18th century as the mizzen sail. Those were certainly handled differently.

This is actually a problem I am facing with a little 1/200 model of the Nina I am working on right now (Lindberg release of the old Pyro kit). In my epic quest to turn "junk into jewels", the only thing that remains of the original model is the hull. I've just completed the shrouds, and am working on the yards. This version, based upon Enrico d'Albertis' work in 1892, has a main yard that is longer than the vessel;  two different models that have been made of this interpretation have an incredible amount of tackle at the lower end of that yard. Not sure which version's running rigging I plan on reproducing.

Regardless, the thought of raising that huge yard into the vertical seems daunting, though it could be done. At least in 1/200, it's a piece of cake.

Wonder what sailors of those days of yore would have made of Dacron?

My stepdaughter is interested in getting a Sunfish, ironically.

Cheers,

Rob

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Thursday, January 17, 2013 6:48 PM

A lateen rigged vessel's sail doesn't necessarily have to be unbound and shifted. A lateen rigged Sunfish sailboat simply tacks with the boom and spar remaining on the same side. On a starboard tack the sail is held off of the mast by the wind and when on a port tack the sail is pressed on the mast by the wind. Chafing is not too much of a problem with dacron sails and imagine that chafing gear may aleviate wear on a canvas sail.

I am not implying that a caravel did do this, but that it could be possible.

Lee

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Thursday, January 17, 2013 6:03 PM

Hello Steve,

As I mentioned in my other post, in all likelihood the answer should be no. Lateen rigged vessels are tacked by  swinging their massive yards around; in many cases, if not most, two and three rigged lateeners had a main yard that stretched longer than the vessel!

Here's an excellent explanation, by the way, of the thrilling way in which a caravela latina  was tacked, from George R. Schwarz's thesis, "The History and Development of Caravels" (TAMU) -

"The basic method involved in changing tack was unwieldy, requiring timing and experience (Figure 5-1). As the vessel fell off the wind, the brace and sheet were loosened, and the parrel was given a bit of slack so that the yard was somewhat unbound from the mast. A crewmember then hauled on the yard until it was vertical and shifted the sheet to the other side, catching the wind once again. At this point, the shrouds now to windward were tightened and those now to leeward were loosened. As the ship again turned into the wind, the sail was sheeted aft on the leeward side, and the yard was again made fast to the mast and trimmed with tacks and braces for the new tack (Landström 1961:83; Pryor 2000:67)."

This doesn't rule mainstays out; in some instances, there may have been vessels so equipped, but most evidence doesn't support them as being common. In all likelihood, the Nina, as originally rigged, probably didn't.

Terribly Fond of Caravelas,

Rob

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Thursday, January 17, 2013 11:58 AM

Does anyone know if the Nina had a main stay in the lateen rig version?

Thanks,

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Thursday, January 17, 2013 11:52 AM

Thanks Dave.  I'll scan a page that shows how to tie off your anchors.  I found it very helpful.

In regards to seizing lines, you'll notice the helping hands, which I wouldn't trade for anything.  Costs about $20 and worth every cent.  

You can seize lines on your ship as well, I found that you need tension and a clip and then it's fairly simple (thank you Boy Scouts).

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, January 17, 2013 8:43 AM

Anchors look good, Steve!  I need to learn about tying a seize around loops...looks way better than just a clove hitch...

Impressive, as usual!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:33 PM

Lost a couple of shots somehow......

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:29 PM

Here are a couple of shots of the anchors and rigging.

 

 

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:26 PM

Here are the cannon back in place and without the offending lashing; thanks for the heads up vonB!.  I will coil the ropes when I am getting closer to putting the quaterdeck on.

Steve

 

This is the way they looked before removing the rearmost lashing, which would have made loading the cannon really hard if not impossible.

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 4:55 PM

Thanks for letting me know.  I removed them, but I wish I had some reference material.  I search the internet but came up with some photos and explanations but nothing showing the lashing.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Tuesday, January 15, 2013 6:23 PM

The cannon are looking good, although you may want to redo the rear lashing, and lash forward of the handle. As it is, you have lashed-down the removeable breech, which, when removed, looks like a heavy metal mug...

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, January 13, 2013 7:47 PM

Alright after some thinking and checking out different options I have decided to keep the offending hatch.  It's going to a bit crowded in the aft section but I'm sure the sailors will learn to make due.

The first picture is fitting the gun carriages after taking them apart.  The pictures after that will be the  completed guns with lashings and eyebolts inserted on the frame.  I am going to string the line through the eyebolts and tie off the forward side.

 

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, January 9, 2013 8:23 PM

Oooh, good tip...I'll have to add that pin vise set to my shopping list...I have a small pin vise with only 3 small sizes...definitely not big enough for the barrels...

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, January 9, 2013 4:48 PM

When I start on the Imai Santa Maria I am going to use brass culverins from JBModels.eu and Morope for my rigging.  I looked at the guns for the SM and they're the same size per scale as the Revell cannon which makes me wonder why the cannon for the Nina and Pinta are so much larger.

I drill all my cannon as a matter of as course, non drilled guns just look dorky, yes I actually said dorky..... Anyway, I bought the pin vise and drill set from Model Expo which has drills from .60 to .80.  One the best purchases I made from them.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, January 9, 2013 8:40 AM

BTW, I'm not in love with my SM cannons, either....the carriages are very smooth and devoid of any texture...and the barrels have no hole in the end, they just look a little funky sticking out of the ports...I've considered drilling them out, but that could end in disaster!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Tuesday, January 8, 2013 12:41 AM

Thanks Dave, I agree that the cannon do seem a bit on the large side, especially compared to the SM's cannons.  At this point I am going to go ahead and use them as is, although I wish I had cut the aft hatch off now.

 I have a feeling that I will revisit the Nina and Pinta at some future point with the Heller kits and some brass culverins from JB Models and some Morope along with some other size rope from another European dealer.  I have the Rope Walk from Model Expo, but haven't tried to figure out how to use it.  From what I have seen it isn't too difficult, but like other things in sailing ship modeling, there is a steep learning curve I haven't the heart right now to conquer.

Thanks again,

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, January 6, 2013 3:04 PM

Normally, I wouldn't chime in about this kind of stuff, since I'm not the type to be too concerned about scale and inaccuracy (remember, I'm the guy who built the Black Swan with its mast running through the capstan!)...but it does seem like the cannon are really big...it's probably why there's so little room between the hatch and the carriage...whether or not you want to address it is your business, Steve...but it's just an observation on my part... :)

I think the build looks SWEET so far!

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, January 6, 2013 2:39 PM

Thanks GM for the information on the guns.  However, it is going to be tough lopping off that hatch now.  Let me think about it for a bit.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, January 5, 2013 1:38 AM

Spent some time looking this up. I would say wrought iron barrels forged with bands. On a sled like affair. Breech loader. No breeching ropes or other rigging as the thing was not set up or crewed for sustained fire.

That hatch has to go in order to step your mast and give the guns room to move around.

Stone shot.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, January 4, 2013 11:46 PM

I wasn't able to shorten the recoil lines so it's back to square one on the cannon.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, January 4, 2013 11:42 PM

I know what you mean Cap'n.  If you do find out, please let me know.  I would hazard a guess that they were either brass or bronze due to the fact that iron would rust and create a hazard.  Although they could have been iron, which I believe would be cheaper to produce than the other metals at the time.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Thursday, January 3, 2013 1:25 AM

I'd feel a lot smarter if I could find a slightly definitive reference that would say whether maritime Spanish cannon would be brass, bronze, or iron.

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