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Revell 1/90 Nina Completed

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  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:34 PM

Thanks for the input gentleman.  That is one of the things I like about posting here;  you learn a bit of naval history.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Tuesday, January 1, 2013 7:49 AM

Yes, I was just about to post that breech-loading guns would make the limited ability to run them in a non-issue!

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Tuesday, January 1, 2013 4:00 AM

To expand on the guns a bit, there is a good possibility that these could have been Venetian guns which were breach-loaders.  These guns were firing stone balls around 25-30mm in diameter.  

This suited the metallurgy and foundry-making of the time, too.  It's much easier to hammer a barrel around a mandrel than to bore a casting or forging out.  Using a mandrel also allows forging reinforcing bands around the barrel, too.  Then the breach can be formed from a stout casting, but one short  enough to sand cast the chamber in the mould, rather than having to machine out the chamber.

This era was also one with charges that ran 1-2 x shot weight due to the quality of the powder.  And to allow for the loose "windage" required firing stone shot.  

The breach would be a closed tube of heavy dimension, with a serious flange fitting under the last barrel band.  the breach would be loaded, then set in place in the barrel with wedges driven between the aft end of the breach and its gun mount.  

Compared to an 18th century 3 or 4 pounder cannon, it would be a paltry and weak thing.  But, compared to the other sea-going cannons, of its time, more than enough.  Particularly since such guns were for use against raiders and pirates.  "Regular" navies closed to contact and used the force of armed mean to board enemies.

As black powder became more chemically consistent, and the purity of the ingredients stabilized, and the infrastructure to cast iron and specialty shot became more common, as simple slip joint became impractical to use in ship-board cannon.  Land-based practice also changed.  Cannon were no longer semi-fixed siege weapons, but mobile items that were expected to move on recoil.  Tactically, this offered an advantage that our learned professor alluded to--a recoiling muzzle-loader could be reloaded from within the (relative) safety of the hull.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Tuesday, January 1, 2013 12:15 AM

Thanks John for the input!  I always appreciate it.  I agree with vB that the way I set the guns up they would be knocking the hatch apart..... Which would aliviate the issue of the mast and provide more room for the guns at the same time!

Anyway, I am going to try and tighten up the breaching line, but it won't be too easy since I superglued the carriages to the deck.  I'll figure something out.  I wish I had the Anatomy of the Ship book on Columbus' ships, although I am not sure if it would show the rigging of the guns. I tried to find it at the library, but no luck.  Are there any other books that you would suggest for research?

A quick question to the group, the guns on the Nina and Pinta are much larger than the ones on the Santa Maria, were the ones on the Santa Maria a smaller caliber?  Also, would these cannons be considered culverins?

Thanks again,

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 31, 2012 11:17 PM

I did some digging about gun recoil in the context of another thread a few years back.  Some reading in good sources established that early naval guns, as late as the early seventeenth century, quite frequently were set up so they couldn't recoil.

Remember that these guns were generally pretty small by the standards of later centuries.  Any gun will try to jump backward when it's fired.  (Sir Isaac Newton figured that one out - or rather codified a principle that plenty of other people had noticed earlier.)  I can remember watching a Lisle gun (a tiny cannon used to fire lines from a beach to a grounded ship) being demonstrated at Mystic Seaport.  The barrel wasn't more than a foot long.  But when it was fired it emitted an almighty bang, and jumped back - in a split second - six or eight feet.

We're used to the setup common in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries:  a heavy "breeching line" that lets the gun recoil several feet before stopping it.  But the physics involved mean that the breeching line (or any other device set up to stop the recoil) is going to be subjected to a huge amount of force - whether it stops it on the instant of the explosion or a fraction of a second later.  If a 32-pounder on board H.M.S. Victory didn't have a breeching line it would blow itself out the other side of the ship; the rope has to take almost as much strain as it would if it actually lashed the gun up against the bulwark.  (I'm no physicist, but it seems to me that a breeching line that starts out slack might actually have to be stronger than one that held the gun against the bulwark.  The gun must build up momentum as it recoils.)  

In fact, it appears that the genesis of the breeching line may have been the idea of making the gun "run itself in," so it could be cleaned and reloaded more easily.  There are lots of contemporary pictures, from as late as the mid-seventeenth century, showing gunners leaning over the bulwarks to load the guns - or even crawling out along the gun barrels carrying ramrods.  (There's a job I wouldn't want.)

Bottom line:  it doesn't seem at all unlikely that, in 1492, a gun would be mounted on a strip of deck that wasn't wide enough for the gun to recoil.  If I were building a model of a ship from that period, I'd set the breeching lines as tight as possible, so the guns simply couldn't move. 

These are shaping up to be two first-rate models.  It wouldn't be awfully difficult to rerig the breeching lines - but if Docidle doesn't feel like doing it, I won't blame him.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Monday, December 31, 2012 6:42 PM

Thanks for following the build vonBerlichingen although I can't say my approach is everything it could be.  I'm just getting back into modeling after 40 years so I feel I am learning everything for the first time; as well as this is only my third or fourth build.

I agree that the cannons are a "bit" cramped at their current location, although that is where the Revell directions place them.  I am not sure where Heller places the cannons, but I believe that they were light enough so the crew could move them about.  Therefore I am going to say that they are presently only stowed there.

Another problem with that hatch is that it is in the way of the middle mast being footed on the keel.  It could be plausible for the mast to being footed on the quarterdeck with the stays supporting it but I think they would be better supported on the keel.  At this point I am not going to remove the hatch for all it's faults since it would entail a fair amount of deconstruction.

If I decide to redo that area are there any other issues you can see?  I really appreciate the input!

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Monday, December 31, 2012 8:44 AM

@docidle: I've been following your build with much interest, partly to learn from your approach.

Re. the guns, I couldn't help but notice that the placement of the hatch relative to the guns or of the guns relative to the hatch would prevent the guns from recoiling and/or being reloaded.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:19 PM

Working on the guns for the Nina

 

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:16 PM

Thanks Bill.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, December 29, 2012 8:01 AM

Steve,

I am sorry to hear about your brother.  Your work on these ships is really doing him honor!

Bill

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, December 28, 2012 11:59 PM

Thanks Bill!  I am honored that you like my work.  In all honesty, I felt the same way about the molded parts but I have become more attached with these kits the more I work on them.  I also want to finish these three since they were the last models my younger brother gave to me before he passed away earlier this year.

Thanks again Bill,

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, December 28, 2012 2:56 PM

Wow! I am amazed by your technique!  I once had all three kits by Revell (the 500th Anniversary set) but sold them (I believe to Vagabond Astronomer but am not sure) because I was so turned off by the molded-on sacks and coiled ropes that I did not really see their possibilities.  You are doing a magnificent job!

Bill

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, December 28, 2012 12:55 AM

Here's another photo of the rope ladder I built.

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, December 26, 2012 10:16 PM

Thanks for the kudos Dave.  You might want to start a spare parts box, it has come in handy.  The rope ladder in the Imai kit is really nice and it could go on something else down the road.  

I rigged the cannon last night after I got the boys in bed.  I'll post some pictures tomorrow.  I was making eye bolts and hooks for the rigging today and blackening it with Blacken' It from MicroMark.  It really makes them look good.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, December 24, 2012 1:11 PM

Also, nice work on the rope ladder!  I'm totally ditching the plastic one that came with my SM and making a *real* one!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, December 24, 2012 1:09 PM

Yeah, my boss is a very generous lady...that's only the half of it!

Looking good, Steve!  I'm actually going over some previous posts right now, gathering up some courage/ideas for putting oils on my SM deck!  As I type this, the parts and paints are before me!

Thanks again for the inspiration!

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Monday, December 24, 2012 12:43 AM

 

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Monday, December 24, 2012 12:06 AM

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Monday, December 24, 2012 12:04 AM

Nina build:

Glued on the bulwarks and started dry fitting the guns and main mast with the yard.  I also put together a rope ladder for the main mast.  I'll secure it to a ring bolt on the deck and the "crow's nest" if that is the correct terminology.

Enjoy!

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, December 23, 2012 11:57 PM

Pinta build:

i am trying to remember the old phrase...... Research twice, cuss once or some such thing!  I cannot believe I had forgotten how to lay decking after all the years I spent on sailing vessels!  So, I ripped up all the decking I had laid and will now do it correctly.  It is amazing how looking at a photo sometimes shows defects that I missed otherwise.

well here's a shot back at square one.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, December 23, 2012 11:48 PM

Dang Dave, I am jealous!  What a sweet bonus your boss gave you.  I sure wouldn't mind one of those myself.

Tom,

I know what you mean about working for yourself come Christmas time, I have never received a bonus from my clients in all these years.  And I never received a bonus like that in all the years working at the university either!

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
  • From: Edmond, Oklahoma
Posted by Tom Cervo on Saturday, December 22, 2012 2:19 PM

I'm self employed.  The gift card sure sounds like a good idea.  

"A man cannot say he has fully lived until he has built a model ship"

Ronald Reagan

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, December 22, 2012 2:04 PM

Looks good, Steve!  I love the ambition of planking your deck with styrene...and I'm sure it'll be awesome when it's done!  I wonder if I should make a base for the SM....

I have 11 days off for the holiday, so I expect I'll be able to find time for modeling soon!

BTW, my boss gave me a $150 gift card for Model-Expo.com as a gift...how sweet is that?!?

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:45 PM

Constructing the base for the Nina.

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:43 PM

Dry fitting the stern of the Nina.

 

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:40 PM

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:35 PM

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:33 PM

Here is the start of the planking.  Hopefully it will come out, if not then I'll just rip it up and start again!

Steve

 

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, December 5, 2012 6:46 PM

Alright, I have sawn off the hatches, etc... I am going to see if I can get styrene strips that match the width of the planking on the deck and redo the deck in the spirit of Force9's Constitution. Here are the pictures of the decks at this time.  I actually got to use my flexible razor saw and it worked great!

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Monday, December 3, 2012 9:00 PM

Thanks for the suggestions Professor T and Tom.  It makes sense and seeing what an amazing job Force9 did with his Constitution I might try laying the deck with individual strips or at least try, if not, then I can always go back to sheet styrene.

Thanks again,

Steve

       

 

 

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