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Revell 1/90 Nina Completed

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  • Member since
    September 2012
  • From: Edmond, Oklahoma
Posted by Tom Cervo on Monday, December 3, 2012 3:49 PM

It may be best to cut a new sheet for the deck and scribe the wood in yourself.  I work with plastic sheets often and the pattern may not match your kit's parts.  I.e. the panel lines may be too heavy or too light.  Take the part with you to compare the sheet to.

Also consider matching the grain on the kit parts as best you can.  A little practice goes a long way.  Before long, you'll be scribing like a pro.

"A man cannot say he has fully lived until he has built a model ship"

Ronald Reagan

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, December 3, 2012 2:36 PM

jtilley

Hmmm....It's none of my business, of course, but I think that decision to use basswood for the decks is worth thinking about.

One of the most impressive aspects of these models is Docidle's use of oil paint on plastic.  The contrast between the plastic "planks" on the hull and the real wood ones on the decks would, I think, be pretty conspicuous.  There's just no way they're going to look alike, in color or texture.

I've never done this, but I'd be tempted to try Evergreen scribed sheet styrene.  It's high-quality stuff; you should be able to get it with the right "plank width," and it's flexible enough to be shaped to form the necessary deck camber.  You could use the kit parts as templates, and maybe use sandpaper or some sort of scraper to imitate the wood-grain texture of the kit parts.  Then spray on a primer coat that closely matches the color of the molded plastic.  Then use your terrific oil paint technique.  The result should (I think) fit in beautifully with the rest of the model.

All this, I should emphasize, is purely hypothetical; I've never tried it.  But I think it's worth experimentation.

Hhhnnnggg... hadn't thought of that but it is a good point. This oil paint technique is so far beyond my comfort zone as to be hard to think how to do, but  it makes sense to stick to a common base material.

Evergreen makes an almost bewildering selection of scribed siding. It gets subdivided into railroad, scenery etc. so it takes a little looking to find what you want. It also comes in pretyy short lengths, which of course is not a problem here.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, December 2, 2012 11:36 PM

Hmmm....It's none of my business, of course, but I think that decision to use basswood for the decks is worth thinking about.

One of the most impressive aspects of these models is Docidle's use of oil paint on plastic.  The contrast between the plastic "planks" on the hull and the real wood ones on the decks would, I think, be pretty conspicuous.  There's just no way they're going to look alike, in color or texture.

I've never done this, but I'd be tempted to try Evergreen scribed sheet styrene.  It's high-quality stuff; you should be able to get it with the right "plank width," and it's flexible enough to be shaped to form the necessary deck camber.  You could use the kit parts as templates, and maybe use sandpaper or some sort of scraper to imitate the wood-grain texture of the kit parts.  Then spray on a primer coat that closely matches the color of the molded plastic.  Then use your terrific oil paint technique.  The result should (I think) fit in beautifully with the rest of the model.

All this, I should emphasize, is purely hypothetical; I've never tried it.  But I think it's worth experimentation.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Saturday, December 1, 2012 8:26 PM

Since I decided to cover these decks with basswood, I thought I would experiment with greying them down. I would like the group's opinion on the graying down process I tried on the Pinta deck.  The quarterdeck on the left is grayed down the main and fore decks on the right are the base color for comparison. I still think it needs some more work, but what do ya'll think?

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Saturday, December 1, 2012 7:49 PM

Thanks Mark, it is coming along........

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2009
  • From: brisbane australia
Posted by surfsup on Saturday, December 1, 2012 5:32 PM

She is looking very nice with your weathering technique Steve. I enjoy looking at your work.....Cheers Mark

If i was your wife, i'd poison your tea! If Iwas your husband, I would drink it! WINSTON CHURCHILL

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Thursday, November 29, 2012 7:40 PM

Thanks George.  I think I will give it a go this weekend.  Has anyone used the "Age It Easy" from Micro Mark on basswood?  Or would it be better to use tung oil first then a gray stain after?

Thanks,

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, November 29, 2012 3:02 AM

Totally replace the deck piece with the basswood. Carve off the deck details from the original plastic and glue them on to the wood.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:29 PM

I also darkened up the hull color on the Pinta to try and get more of the grain to come out.

 

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:26 PM

It's a bear trying to post off an iPad.  Anyway, I tried to add some depth to the decks of the Nina, not bad but still not there yet.

On the Pinta, you'll see that the missing detail is just too much even if I try finishing the faux wood finsh I had started.  Basswood, here we come.  Any tips on how to cut the basswood around the hatches, et al, would be greatly appreciated!

 

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:18 PM

Just in case anyone was wondering, I have not fallen off the face of the earth.....yet.  Been a bit busy with the Turkey Day festivities and family, etc....  Hope everyone is starting to shake off the self induced sloth and gluttony.

I actually got a little painting done so I thought I post them and get everyone's input.

Thanks to Mark, Rob, Adrian, Woj, Dave, Goshawk, Prof John, and GM for the input and support.  I always learn something from you.

I think I am going to follow GM's suggestion on using scribed basswood on the deck of the Pinta.  You can see how bad I messed up the detail on it.  If all goes well, I might do the Nina but I'm sure yet.

Thanks again everyone and happy holidays,

Steve

First the Nina

 

       

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: New York City
Posted by Goshawk on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 2:49 PM

Prof. Tilley,

Pantograph machines come in all sizes, but the machine in that article looks like an old (probably not back then!) Dekel Pantograph. They were the best and most common back in the day.  That machine was about the size of a washing machine. Nice to work on, I had the opportunity several years ago. And yes, starting with a large master sculpt was the best way to get a highly detailed final piece. The trick was to have super fine cutters to replicate the detail. I've seen cutters as small as .015" diameter, but they might have used finer. In the case of those little figures in the ship kits, my guess is that they cut a carbon electrode with the pantograph and used an EDM (Electrode Displacement Machining) to burn the shape into the steel molds.

Conversely, Aurora almost always sculpted their figures the same size as the finished piece and cast the molds in Beryllium Copper. If you look at the detail on their little figures the process becomes truly amazing.

BTW it's been a while since I chimed in on this forum, glad to see you still helping folks out with your impressive knowledge and gentile wit. I still have the lovely print of the USCGC Eagle hanging in my work room awaiting the day I build my old Revell kit,

Warm regards,

Tory

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Salem, Oregon
Posted by 1943Mike on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 2:10 PM

Interesting article.

Did anyone notice the pictures further down in that magazine of the Windjammers Kaiwo Maru, Christian Rodich, and the USCG Eagle? There are a few more pictures of saling ships as well.

1943Mike

Mike

"Le temps est un grand maître, mais malheureusement, il tue tous ses élèves."

Hector Berlioz

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:31 AM

Wow!  Many thanks to Tnonk!  That whole article is fascinating.  

It's actually pretty simple to put links in posts.  This is how it works (on my computer at least) :

1.  Call up the page for which you want the link.

2.  Put your cursor in the web address box at the top of the screen.  Left click.  The web address will be highlghted.

3.  Right click anywhere in the highlighted area.  A drop box will appear.  Left click on "Copy" in the drop box.

4.  Go back to the FSM Forum page.  Put your cursor wherever you want the link to be.  

5.  Right click.  The drop box will appear again.

6.  Left click on "Paste" in the drop box.  The link will magically appear where the cursor is.

The whole process takes about ten seconds.

Here's the link to the Popular Mechanics article:  http://books.google.com/books?id=0tsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=Revell+pantograph+machine&source=bl&ots=ilccizWNk5&sig=mWVSgDo2q1YALcI40L9_SjKg3h0&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Revell%20pantograph%20machine&f=false .

I was surprised to see how small the machine is.  I figured it would be the size of a small room.

I'm not surprised at how big the original sculpture was.  If you look carefully at those tiny figures you can see upper and lower eyelids, shoe buckles, etc., etc.  (The figure in the picture, incidentally, is one of the nineteenth-century officers who were originally issued with the 1/96 Cutty Sark.)

Years ago I read a book about Airfix, which said that all the masters for the company's kits (including crew figures) were carved from basswood - at model size.  Maybe that's even more amazing.  Airfix apparently didn't have a pantograph - at least at that time.  I wonder how many model companies did.

I especially like this paragraph, from later in the article:  "Nowadays, Junior gets to play with model kits because Dad has his own.  They provide 'a legitimate source of pride, satisfaction and serenity,' explains Dr. William Menninger, the mental health authority, commenting on the fact that modeling is becoming a prescription for relaxation."  Dr. Menninger presumably never saw a White Ensign photoetched detail set.

Fascinating stuff!  That whole PM issue is worth reading.  For a real nostalgia trip, check out some of those old ads.  Thanks again to Tnonk!

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2010
  • From: Berwick, La.
Posted by Tnonk on Monday, November 19, 2012 9:35 PM

Looking  good!

I've never built any of the models of Columbus' ships from any manufacturer but I'm inclined to put the Nina & Pinta on my list after visiting the reconstructed  ships several months back. Such tiny ships to cross such a big ocean so many years ago.

Mr. Tilley - in regards to the Revell Pantograph machine you mentioned in your post, I found a picture. I did a Goggle search (my son always tells me - goggle is your friend) for 'Revell Pantograph Machine' and an article for Popular Mechanics Dec. 1960 came up with an article on Revell entitled 'Modelmakers in a Tizzy' by Carson Kerr came up.

It's a great article, well worth reading.  The Pantograph Machine is shown on page 83 along with an original sculpting for a sailor - I didn't realize the original sculptures were so Big!

Anyway, thought you might like to check it out.

I'd leave a link but I'm not quite sure how to do that.

Adrian

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, November 19, 2012 8:34 PM

Haha!  Capstan!  Who would build a ship model with a capstan around the base of the ma-.......um.  Nevermind.  :)

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Monday, November 19, 2012 3:01 PM

GMorrison

Well at least it doesn't have a capstan around the base of it...If it bugs you, I say change it. Who'd know, huh?

Looking at those decks, with the sacks of Azorean fruit and all, it seems that replacing them with scribed basswood would not be too hard.

I built a Revell Nina back in 1993 as a Portuguese caravel and did just that, though I used two ply smooth Bristol board with a deck pattern drawn on it and then streaked using stain marker over a basswood base. Also built a Nina straight as a review of sorts (that's when I spotted it). Certainly easy enough, and the results were good.

Cheers,

Rob

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, November 19, 2012 2:54 PM

Vagabond_Astronomer

One more thing...

There is a flaw in the Revell Nina kit that bothers me to no end. The mizzen mast is aligned with a hatch on the main deck. Normally, these masts would go all the way down to mast steps mounted on the keels. The kit doesn't look bad, but that little detail... hmmm.

- RL

Well at least it doesn't have a capstan around the base of it...If it bugs you, I say change it. Who'd know, huh?

Looking at those decks, with the sacks of Azorean fruit and all, it seems that replacing them with scribed basswood would not be too hard.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Monday, November 19, 2012 1:49 PM

jtilley

Strange and wondrous are the ways of plastic kit manufacturers.  I'm surprised none of them have sued each other out of business.

There was a joke running around in the 1970's that Airfix and FROG had both agreed not to release the same model at the same time. 

Cheers,

Rob

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, November 19, 2012 1:11 PM

Strange and wondrous are the ways of plastic kit manufacturers.  I'm surprised none of them have sued each other out of business.

The idea of the Nina's mizzen mast being stepped on the upper deck seems unlikely, but not totally inconceivable.  It must have been a mighty small mast; I've seen drawings of such things that rely on the rigging and the rigidity of the stepping mechanism.  But if I were building such a model I certainly wouldn't do it that way.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Monday, November 19, 2012 7:39 AM

...and yet one more thing...

Great work! Those will be some fine looking models.

-RL

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Monday, November 19, 2012 7:35 AM

One more thing...

There is a flaw in the Revell Nina kit that bothers me to no end. The mizzen mast is aligned with a hatch on the main deck. Normally, these masts would go all the way down to mast steps mounted on the keels. The kit doesn't look bad, but that little detail... hmmm.

- RL

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted by Vagabond_Astronomer on Monday, November 19, 2012 7:26 AM

Hello everybody, been a long time.

Great build, but I see that, once more, the whole Heller/Revell caravel controversy has reared its admitted silly looking head.

The dies are different. They are based upon the work of Jose Maria Martinez-Hidalgo in his book, "Columbus's Ships", but are clearly different. The Heller dies produce smaller caravels; if I were going to build these, I'd use the Heller "Pinta" as the square rigged "Nina" (or, if you choose to go lateen, the Heller Nina) and the Revell Pinta as... well... the Pinta, as it is clearly larger.

Top to bottom, Heller, Revell, Occidental/Zvezda

There are numerous differences, such as decks, hawses, etc. I've often heard the same about the Santa Maria kits from both companies as well; both are based upon the Julio Guillen y Tato Santa Maria, which, while having mostly a proper hull, is actually a large caravel, when Columbus himself referred to the Santa Maria as a nao, a round ship. The Revell kit is around 1/90, whilst the Heller kit is 1/75; again, they only share the source design. This is why the Heller trio look so awkward together, the caravels are between 1/96 - 1/100, based upon available information.

You could convert the Revell Santa Maria kit into a more "nao" looking vessel (as you can the larger Heller and Imai models) by adding the focs'l. They actually did this with the second Guillen Santa Maria replica, and it served as a proof of concept, if you will, for Martinez-Hidalgo.

Link to my photo album, in case you are interested in all the differences - 

A Tale of Three Ninas

Cheers,

Rob

"I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night..."
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, November 17, 2012 10:06 AM

One thing that's always puzzled me about the Revell Santa Maria: the crew figures.  In those days Revell's representations of human beings were, beyond much argument, the best on the market.  (Take a look at the ones that came with the little horse-drawn vehicle kits, the military vehicles, and the HO buildings.) 

Dr. Thomas Graham's book on the company's history contains an interesting story about early Revell figures.  It seems the artist who sculpted the masters for most of them was a gentleman named Tony Bulone.  The original idea of putting figures in the kits was his.  He carved the masters for the first ones on his own time, in a workshop he set up in a shed behind the apartment building where he lived, and showed some of the results to Lew Glaser, the president of the company.  Glaser liked the idea, and figures started showing up in Revell kits.

From Dr. Graham's book, p. 44:  "One of [Bulone's other] commissions was a slender, leggy doll inspired by a figure Mattel's Ruth Handler had seen in Europe.  Bulone used his wife Lylis [no photo of her in the book, unfortunately] as his personal inspiration. Mattel thanked Bulone, paid him $800 for his sculpture work, and produced the doll under the name 'Barbie.'" 

In those days Revell apparently had a miraculously precise three-dimensional pantograph machine.  (I'd love to see a picture of it.)  There are examples of Revell figures turning up in different kits pantographed down to different scales.  I suspect Mr. Bulone carved all the masters on the same scale and had them pantographed down to the scales of the kits.

The Santa Maria was one of the first three Revell sailing ships (the others being the Constitution and H.M.S. Bounty.)  They were on different scales, to fit in identically-sized boxes (which sold for $3.00).  The Santa Maria was the first sailing ship I built - at about age seven.  (I hate to think how much I must have mangled the thing - but my parents thought it was wonderful.)  It had seven exquisite crew figures, including Columbus in fancy dress and a Spanish soldier with a breastplate and helmet.  One of the seven, identified in the instructions as "the cannoneer," got recycled - at the same size - in the Bounty kit.  I've used those figures in many models since then.  (The Spanish soldier, slightly modified into a Continental Marine, is visible on the photo of my scratchbuilt Hancock in my avatar.)

The problem is that the Bounty and Santa Maria kits are quit obviously on different scales.  (The Santa Maria is on a considerable larger scale than the 1/110 Bounty.  I know that figure of 1/110 is right for the Bounty; I communed with that kit for a couple of years back in the 1970s.)   If those figures in the Santa Maria kit were on the same scale as the rest of the model, the real ship would have been enormous. 

I think the company's current description of the kit as being on 1/90 scale is about right.  If so, the figures ought to be much bigger - bigger, in fact than the ones in the big Cutty Sark, Constitution, and Kearsarge kits (and their clones).  On a 1/90-scale model those wonderful little guys in the kit are midgets.

I wonder what happened.  I don't imagine we'll ever know.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Saturday, November 17, 2012 1:02 AM

Since we were discussing the old but still good Revell Santa Maria, Here is the Revell 1/90 Santa Maria that I was working on but have decided to disassemble it and use some of the parts on a new one I have in line.  I really do not like the paint job i did using acrylic washes.  I had started this before the Kogge and then figured it would be better to build anew after I finish the Nina and Pinta. The new and improved version will use the artist oil technique. I scratch built the pump just forward of the grating on the main deck.  It was based on the pump on the reconstruction Santa Maria in Chicago I believe.  Anyway, enjoy!

Steve

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Saturday, November 17, 2012 12:48 AM

Here a three hull pictures.  Not too sure I like the colors but we'll see.

       

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Klaipeda, Lithuania, Europe
Posted by Wojszwillo on Friday, November 16, 2012 8:05 AM

Revell's Pinta and Nina - slightly modified Heller's kits - Revell used "unified" deck with different "inserts" to middle of the deck. "Unified" parts was packed in one packing (and this pack was the same and for Pinta and for Nina), "different" in other packing. I think in that case production was made with less costs.

Pille of sacks and other molded "things" on deck - Revell's addition. All other - Heller's.

  • Member since
    July 2009
Posted by Harquebus on Friday, November 16, 2012 4:21 AM

Hmm, I bought the Revell Pinta and Santa Maria around the time of the anniversary and they were emblazoned with 1492-1992 Anniversary artwork. I never got the Nina as the lateen rigged sails were not as handsome in my eyes as square rigging. The Santa Maria is definitely an older and cruder kit but I was delightfully surprised but the much finer Pinta and the precise nature of the kit. I think the Pinta is a not Revell kit as the Santa M is just not comparable in quality.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, November 15, 2012 10:54 AM

Looks first-rate.  These are going to be beautiful models.

I'm starting to think these aren't reissues of the old Heller kits.  I built the Heller versions about 40 years ago; I don't remember that pile of sacks and the separate deck segments.  (Whether my poor old brain would remember such things at this distance is, of course, highly questionable.)  The hull halves look just about like I remember the Heller versions (including the bulwark stanchions), but the deck parts don't.

I know there was a slight boom of interest in models of Columbus's ships back in 1992.  (Sheesh - that was twenty years ago!)  At that time some old Heller (and even Aurora) kits were showing up in Revell Germany boxes.  I seem to recall vaguely that we had a discussion of the topic here in the Forum (I don't remember when - maybe a mere five years ago or thereabouts) in which it was established that the Revell kits were original to that company. 

I do know that the Santa Maria Revell Germany is advertising on its website right now is the old Revell version from the mid-fifties.  (Heller made one that was about the same size, but this one clearly is the ancient Revell version.) 

Can anybody with a better memory than mine - or with both Heller and Revell kits in front off him/her - sort this out?

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2009
  • From: brisbane australia
Posted by surfsup on Thursday, November 15, 2012 6:10 AM

Good to see you are going along pretty well so far Steve. Looking forward to seeing some more.....Cheers mark

If i was your wife, i'd poison your tea! If Iwas your husband, I would drink it! WINSTON CHURCHILL

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