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Revell 1:83 Mayflower

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  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 11:40 AM

PS:  Your wrote: "The upper deadeyes are NOT in a perfect line." 

That is also a good tip.  The image that I posted bears out what you are saying.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 3:42 PM

Those upper deadeyes are a little out of line - but not much. The difference in height probably would amount to 1/32" or less on the scale of the model.

My habit is to line up the upper deadeyes as straight as I can (and parallel to the channel), and let human error add realistic inconsistency. Setting up the deadeyes and lanyards is, to me, the most difficult part of rigging a ship model. Worse, it has to be done at the beginning of the project, when I'm always out of practice.

That photo shows another piece of gear: the sheer pole. It runs across the tops of the upper deadeyes. It has two functions: to keep the upper deadeyes in line, and to keep them from turning as the tension on the shrouds changes. There's some doubt as to when the sheer pole was introduced, but it may be correct for 1620. The typical sheer pole was made of iron rod, but I think some of the earliest ones were made of heavy, heavily-tarred rope. That seems to be the case in the Mayflower II.

Another feature that I've noticed in other photos of the replica ship is that she has several wood or iron staves running across each gang of shrouds. That serves to keep the whole shroud/ratline assembly more steady and rigid.

Take a careful look at the ratlines and you'll see that they're eye-spliced on each end, and the eye splices are seized to the foremost and aftermost shrouds. That's the sort of detail that's not worth worrying about on such a small scale (all those who think you can turn an eye splice in a tiny piece of thread, and do it several hundred times, raise your hands), but it's not hard to use a reef knot on the ends and clove hitches on the intermediates. But I strongly suggest the "needle through the shroud" trick for such a small-scale model.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 4:00 PM

My habit is to try my hardest to line them up. That way they come out up-and-down.

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 10:26 PM

You guys just keep bringing it on, more good info. I am storing this for when I get there.  

Last night I placed my orders for the things I need. Hopefully soon I can post some progress images as I move towards paint.  

Thanks guys.

Steve

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Monday, December 21, 2015 9:44 PM

I found this image of the shrouds on the Mayflower 2.  The shrouds appear to have a metal framework to them.  What are your thoughts about that?

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 21, 2015 11:43 PM

Those are the staves I mentioned in my last post. I'm not sure what the historical evidence says about them, but they look reasonable to me.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, December 22, 2015 12:41 AM

A couple of random thoughts.

I REALLY am going to pick up the Anatomy of the Ship Susan Constant.

Why does the Mayflower mast have mast bands? Dr. Tilley will helm the tiller on this , but the naval architect William Baker must have made this choice.

Landstrom does not draw the Mayflower. Apropos of nothing, he always represents to me a sort of Yoda wisdom.

See where every sixth ratline on the fore and main masts goes the extra distance to the aft most shroud? That does not appear to be the case in the photo of the Mayflower replica, yet shows as Dr. T explained that if they were rigid, such a set up would stabilize the other climbing ropes.

 

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Tuesday, December 22, 2015 4:08 AM

were those staves on most or all ship's jtilley.

 

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:09 AM

Thanks for the feedback guys. 

The Mayflower was/is an interesting ship indeed.  I am enjoying this build.  I wish I had more time to devote to it.

Surgery has begun on the channels. So far, so good. I hope to make some serious progress over the coming holidays. My goal is to get the hull to the point that I can begin the paint process for in January.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:53 PM

If you guys rely on my knowledge of early seventeenth-century rigging, you'll be making a big mistake. That's not my primary field of interest.

There are plenty of gaps in everybody's knowledge of the subject. I have no idea how common the use of multiple staves on the lower shrouds was. I do know that, until sometime early in the nineteenth century, just about every ship had futtock staves. A futtock stave (or staff) is a wood or iron bar that's seized to the lower shrouds under the top platform (generally as far below the top as the lower masthead is above it). The futtock shrouds run between the top and the futtock stave. Another set of lines, called catharpins, runs between the futtock stays. The catherpins have the function of pulling the port and starboard shrouds closer together, giving the yard a little more room to swing.

Seventeenth century ships sometimes had lower catharpins. Another stave was lashed to the shrouds some distance down from the futtock stave, and another set of catharpins ran between the port and starboard lower futtock staves.

I don't know whether the Mayflower had lower catharpins or not. My guess is that she had upper ones.

Just why William Baker incorporated all those staves into his rigging plan for the Mayflower II I don't know, but I'm sure he had good reasons.

Seventeenth-, eighteenth-, and nineteenth-century documents show all sorts of variations on the theme of only running a few ratlines all the way across the gang of shrouds. Sometimes they don't all reach the foremost shroud; sometimes the aftermost; there's little consistency. I've never been able to figure out just why it was done that way. The best explanation I've heard was given to me by the chief rigger at Mystic Seaport many years ago. He said most of the ratlines of the Charles W. Morgan didn't extend to the foremost shrouds, because those shrouds were often slacked off when the ship was working to windward - again, to let the lower yards swing a little further around.

I think a little terminology needs to be clarified. The shrouds are the heavy, vertical lines that run between the channels and the masthead. They are crossed by the much lighter ratlines, which form ladders for men going aloft. The footropes hang below the yards; the sailors stand on the footropes while working on the square sails. Footropes are visible in several photos of the Mayflower II, but they're anachronisms. The footrope didn't appear until well into the seventeenth century - and wasn't in universal use until shortly before 1700. Until that time, the sailors had to crawl out on top of the yard.

I think that was a consideration in the odd way topsails were furled in the seventeenth century. Crawling out on those little topsail yards would be a mighty dangerous activity. (I'm not sure the topsail yards of the Susan Constant replica could take the weight of several human beings doing that.) I suspect the topsails were furled by men standing in the tops.

Every full-sized replica of a sixteenth- or seventeenth-century ship I've seen has footropes. Authenticity isn't as important as twenty-first-century hospital bills. But a model of the Mayflower shouldn't have footropes.

The term mast band properly applies to a wood or iron band around the mast. The Mayflower II has wooldings, which are made out of rope. The function of both wooldings and mast bands is to bind together the several long pieces of wood that form the mast. If a mast is made of one tree trunk, the wooldings probably wouldn't be necessary. (I recall that when the Elizabeth II, the full-size replica of the ship that brought the first settlers to North Carolina in 1584, was built, the builders managed to find a nice, straight, fat, well-seasoned phone pole and made the mainmast out of it. But a mast made in one piece would have been unusual.)

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 3:46 PM

As always JT, very interesting.

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Sunday, December 27, 2015 1:20 PM

As hoped that with the holiday time-off, I made a little progress. I worked on tackling the chainplate assemblies. You may recall this topic a little further back in this thread.

Below: I had decided to change out this plastic-disaster with some better quality components. 

Below: Jtilley offered up some good advice about the channel and how to approach it.  He suggested that I file a notch into the channel for the stropes, attach a piece to cover the notches, and he deduced that the method outlined is probably how they tackled the problem on the real ship. Interestingly, I found this image that shows how it was done on the Mayflower II replica. It falls in-line with how we approached this problem. Notice the notch in the channel for the stropes and, notice the front piece that is applied to the channel covering those notches.

Below: This image below shows how the kit assembly is to work. You can see the channel, but in front of it is a flange that inserts into the back of the chainplate assembly. I only mention this because for anyone building this kit, you will need to do some creative filing/sanding. Without doing that, the piece has a horrible fit producing massive misalignments. You will need to not only sand the depth of the flange, but its thickness as well.

Below: Removal of the deadeyes.

Below: If this piece looked bad before, look at it now. Egads. At this point, I used the remaining nubs as locators to where I file the notches and as located by the kit manufacturer.

Below: The previous image reminds me of a Sawfish.  What does this have to do with the ship? Not much. Huh?

Below: Here is how this piece came out. Notches cut, nubs removed. BTW...because the scale of this part is so small, I could only produce a triangular notch. I don't have a file small enough to make a squared cut. This is not a deal-breaker for me since they probably won't be seen anyway once the deadeyes are installed.

Below: Here is how it looks glued to the channel.

 

Below: Not related to this current work, but it is related to this kit. As I was cleaning up the kit from flash I noticed some serious sink-marks on the forecastle. They are present in both copies that I own. The copy that I am using for the finished kit has them the worst. I wish I had imaged it before I started fixing the problem but this image will at least give builders of this kit an idea of what to look for. You can see the locations by where the white putty is located. I need to apply another coat. Just as a side note: I used Vallejo Plastic Putty on this. I love this stuff. It goes on like toothpaste, and then you wipe off the excess with a dampened swab. It works great for when you are trying to preserve delicate detail.  

 

End of update.

 

Below:  

 

 

  • Member since
    August 2009
  • From: MOAB, UTAH
Posted by JOE RIX on Sunday, December 27, 2015 11:55 PM

I've been watching your build from the sidelines for too long now Steve. It's high time I get on here and let you know that what you are doing is phenomenal. I mean it is really outstanding stuff. Now, I don't know diddly about sail ship rigging and such but, I'm certainly far more educated and knowledgable from all the input going on in this WIP. Just great stuff going on here. Thanks for sharing Steve and, well, everyone else here.

"Not only do I not know what's going on, I wouldn't know what to do about it if I did". George Carlin

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Monday, December 28, 2015 9:33 AM

Hey Joe, thanks so much for your input and encouragement. It is great to hear from you. The guys here are definitely supplying a lot of great info for the novices like me. Their knowledge is absolutely invaluable. Hopefully, I don't wear them out before this project gets finished. I am trying not to.

Thanks again, Joe!!!

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Thursday, December 31, 2015 6:28 PM

Greetings... Well, my goal for the next few days was to fabricate the backing links. I am not sure I will be able to pull this one off. At this scale, each of them would be about 2mm wide and maybe 3mm long.  Fabricating and installing something out of styrene in that size might be out of the scope of my resolve. Not just 1 or 2 pieces, but all 30 of them. 

Anyway, the real reason I am posting today is this. Any thoughts about the angle of the fore-chains shown below? If I am interpreting the image correctly they are at an angle leaning towards the bow. I am not sure how much of the angle is because of the angle of the ship in relation to the camera, or if they are truly angled. In other photos that I found, in terms of angles, the chains at the stern seem to be straight down and the midsection chains are all over the place to navigate around the gun ports. That I understand, but why the angle on the fore-chains. Do you guys interpret the image the same as me? I want a second opinion before I begin gluing and drilling.

Thanks in advance.

Below: This image was greatly magnified.  I am including the original unscaled image below it to give a better perspective.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, December 31, 2015 7:32 PM

Dumb answer- they would look silly straight up and down. In theory they should align with the shroud. In practice...Hmm

Its a little hard to tell because of the inward curve of the hull.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, December 31, 2015 8:23 PM

Just an idea. Rig the shrouds first, dont worry abt the chains yet (they look like they are chains. When thats all set, take a length of chain and soak a couple of inches in CA. We are just running an experiment. When its hard, paint it black. Mark on the ship the horizontal line where they all are linked to the hull, or use aplank as a ref. Chop the chain into chunks, eyeball the angle and stick them on with gel ca.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, December 31, 2015 9:03 PM

A standard step in rigging a wood ship model is to stick a dowel in he hole for the mast, mark the level of bolster (the point where the shrouds loop around the mast, and run a piece of thread from that point down through the notches in the channel to the ship's side. Look at the model from the side, and swing the thread till it forms a straight line from end to end. The point where the thread hits the hull at the right level is the point where the chain is attached. Pretty simple, actually.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Thursday, December 31, 2015 10:48 PM

GM, not a dumb answer but a dumb question on my part. I had a feeling you would have a good explanation for it. Well, if a person doesn't ask, they won't learn. Thanks!

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Thursday, December 31, 2015 10:55 PM

GM...that is a pretty darn good idea about the chains. Stiffening them should make it a lot easier for me to install them. Earlier today I positioned the chains against the ship and they were flip-flopping all over the place. This is a great tip.

 

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Thursday, December 31, 2015 11:24 PM

JT...yours is also excellent advice. I wish I had known this sooner because it would have saved me a lot of time searching out images. So in my case, I could probably tape the kit masts in place and follow the same procedure. This should surely make things easier than trying to eyeball it. Like I once said, I should have named this WIP, Ship Building 101.

So I will try this and maybe along with GMs idea to stiffen the chains. I do prefer to try and fit things before paint. So I will continue to work on this step and see how it goes.

Thanks you two for the great advice! 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, December 31, 2015 11:52 PM

I don't like to start arguments, but I cordially disagree with the idea of putting CA on the chains. I don't see what it would accomplish - other than gumming up the detail.

What I would suggest is deliberately cutting the lengths of chain one link or so too short, and stretching them after they're secured at the top. (Brass and copper chain will stretch a surprising amount.) That will make them plenty straight. And if I were you I'd connect the chains to the deadeyes before mounting the deadeyes on the channels. You want the whole assembly - chain, channel, lower deadeye, lanyard, upper deadeye, shroud - to be pulling together. When it's done, it will have quite a bit of strain on it.

When it comes to backing links, why not just chop them off a length of styrene strip of the right width and thickness? Then drill thirty holes (that won't take long) and you're ready to install them. Better yet - drill the hole in each individual piece just before you whack it off.

I'm a big fan of a tool called The Chopper, by Northwest Short Line. Comes in handy for lots of jobs in ship modeling. Here's a link:  http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/53-494 . With that gadget you can make thirty backing links in two or three minutes.

One other thought. Do you have a copy of George Campell's The Neophyte Shipmodeler's Jackstay? It's an old classic, primarily intended as a primer for people starting with solid-hull wood kits. But it contains a ton of good, basic information about ships and ship models. And it doesn't cost much. Here's a link: http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product.asp?ITEMNO=MSB110 .

Happy New Year!

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Friday, January 1, 2016 10:19 AM

Hi JT, I have just a few things to mention. After writing my initial post yesterday it occurred to me that I could try using a paper-cutter to at least cut the strips lengthwise. You know the ones that have the long blade and wood base, commonly used for cutting crafting-paper? I have one of those. The styrene sheet is thin enough so it should cut it. My doubts come in though trying to cut a strip that will probably be about 2mm wide.This cutter has some slop and it is not meant for precise work. I will find out this morning if its capable of doing what I need.

I appreciate you pushing back at me with the aforementioned ideas. I did not expect that since not long ago you had suggested I scale back my expectations when we discussed the 2 and 3mm blocks. Adding the backing links is something that I really wanted to do, so I really appreciate you putting me to task on this and not letting me take the easy way out. I still planned to try and make it happen, but I might have more easily just opted out if after meeting some frustration. I needed that push. 

I think that someone had already mentioned the book that you referenced. I think it was GM, maybe you, or both even. Going into this project I ignorantly thought that I could've muddled through it. I suppose I could have if I didn't really care about quality, and/or some authenticity. In short, build the kit as is. Even then I would have struggled though, particularly with the included garbage instructions. I had no clue just how much there is to learn about these types of ships, and what it would take to bring the kit up to my vision for it. This is a lesson for me, and it should be a lesson for anyone new to ship building looking to jump in. You guys with all your great advice have helped set a primer for newbies like me. I hope that my mistakes will help others. I suppose the book would have talked about how to align the chains? If so, that is a good example of why I needed the book. It is certainly inexpensive enough, so I will buy it.

Regarding the chains and CA... losing too much detail is not something that occurred to me. I guess it boils down to what a person is willing to live with. Maybe a more targeted approach would be another option. Maybe to apply the CA at the link joins would help minimize the loss. But then, would it be enough to maintain the strength keeping them rigid while installing them. It would have to be experimented with. My intent was to first try to install them without CA. If things get too unwieldy, using CA may be my next step. It is certainly a viable option in that case.

Lastly, you should never fear an argument from me when your intentions are always for my betterment. I welcome your thoughts, constructive criticisms, and whatever. I know that it can get touchy by broaching things like this. Trust me, I have stepped into it, so I know all about it. Thanks for continually taking that risk. The other side of the coin is I hope that you take the things I say in the light intended. 

Moving forward, let this be my Mayflower Compact: Feel free to give advice and constructive criticism without fear of reprisal. In like manor, know that my words are not intended for ill-will and that they should not be construed as such.

Signed, Bakster.

January 1, 2016

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, January 1, 2016 2:05 PM

GMorrison

Just an idea. Rig the shrouds first, dont worry abt the chains yet (they look like they are chains. When thats all set, take a length of chain and soak a couple of inches in CA. We are just running an experiment. When its hard, paint it black. Mark on the ship the horizontal line where they all are linked to the hull, or use aplank as a ref. Chop the chain into chunks, eyeball the angle and stick them on with gel ca.

 

Might in fact be a dumb idea, but it just was a thought. The orthodox approach would be to put the thing together along the lines of the real thing- I think it was described before: chain link, chain, channel, strop deadeye. I just find sometimes when "imroving plastic" kits that the limitations of the original, inhibit doing it right. I've kind of gotten away from modifying plastic kits for that reason.

Try whatever makes sense to you, we can all learn from it.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, January 1, 2016 3:07 PM

Bakster, do you have a local hobby shop that carries Evergreen styrene shapes? That company makes all sorts of products that are incredibly useful to ship modelers. Here's a link: http://www.evergreenscalemodels.com . If you can't get Evergreen stuff locally, Walther's (the huge model railroad company in Milwaukee) stocks it. The prices are quite reasonable.

I'm with you: I question whether a guillotine-type paper cutter is capable of cutting strips 2mm wide.

Regarding the chain: I have to say that, in about 55 years of working with small brass chain, I haven't had a link open up on me to the point where the chain fell apart.

A good way to secure the chain to the deadeye (I can speak from experience on this one) is simply to tie a short piece of thread around the deadeye and through the end link of the chain. The thread will look like the deadeye strop, and the knot can be hidden by the molding on the edge of the channel. Easy.

Several chemical "blackeners" on the market will do a nice job of blackening the chain. Bluejacket sells "brass black," and there's one called "Blacken-It" that's sold by model railroad suppliers. I've been told that gun bluing will work too, but I haven't tried it. I do suggest shooting the blackened chain with a thin spritz of Dullcoat; otherwise the blackener may eventually chip off.

As a matter of fact a guy named John Tilly signed the Mayflower Compact. I don't think I'm related to him, though; he and his family, as I recall, died during the first rough winter.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, January 1, 2016 3:32 PM

Chopper- great tool. No the paper cutter will probably not work.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Friday, January 1, 2016 3:32 PM

I don't think it was a dumb idea at all. It just depends how much time a person wants to put into the kit, as you said. I totally get that, and your suggestion is a good one too. After todays efforts, I am more inclined to go your route just because of I am tired of fighting this kit. But I won't just yet, because I am stubborn, and I will see this project through to the end.

Read on...

Your point about plastic kits is well taken. I was just working on cleaning up some of the flash surrounding the partially opened cabin doors. It is disheartening. If you remove the flash it leaves massive gaps and even some of the door framing. If you leave the flash in, it looks like heck too. Since I have a second kit to draw parts from, I took those parts and left some of the flash in place in order to preserve some detail. To me, it is the lesser of two evils. Having that said, I am not entirely happy about the outcome. The images below show the post work in both cases.

Below: If I remove the flash above the door in the right piece it removes part of the door framing. The door frame in that area is extremely thin and it becomes part of the flash when removing it. The piece on the left is the result of me trying to straighten things out on my first attempt. It kind of looks ok except when viewing it straight on. Then it becomes clear there is a huge gap above the door and it looks stupid.

Below: Same deal as above.  

Lastly, my attempt to use the paper-cutter was a failure. I couldn't cut a straight piece with it if my life depended on it. It has not cut straight since I got it.  Something is out of whack with it. So JTs cutter may be in the offing.

THE END

 

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, January 1, 2016 3:34 PM

Yep, the compromises start to pile up. Cut off the door and make a new bigger one.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Friday, January 1, 2016 3:42 PM

Exactly, and well said. I thought about modifying the doors but man, that is a whole new headache that I really don't want to deal with.

 

Updated: I won't rule it out though.  

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Franklin Wi
Posted by Bakster on Friday, January 1, 2016 3:57 PM

JT--I am not sure if we do. I have a friend that owns a hobby store and he is big into both model RR and plastic kits. I can check with him. Walthers is another good suggestion. Thanks for link. I will have to look closer at what they have.

That is too funny about the John Tilly. That is a hoot!  Lets hope you fare better than them, then.

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