Revell 1:83 Mayflower

Thanks Steve. I'm giving my last final exam next Tuesday; grading that stack of exams will be my last official duty. Since I'm on a ten-month contract, with my paychecks coming twice a month for all twelve months, I'll be on the payroll through August 31.

There are lots of things I won't miss about that job. But I definitely will miss a lot of it - especially the students.

As always John, your help is greatly appreciated.

PS: I hope things are well with you. I know that retirement is looming close for you, if not already here. Before I forget. Congratulations on that!

I'm not going to blow a hole through your theory, steve, because it's almost unquestionably right.

From what I can tell, almost nothing is known about seventeenth- century ships' bottom colors. Alittle later than that we do have references to "dark stuff" and "white stuff." It's generally thought that dark stuff was some sort of stinking concoction of tar, sulpher, and horsehair (I have no appetite for reproducing that on a model) and white stuff contained white lead paint and tallow. Recent research has established that the Wasa, the only surviving good-sized  vessel of that period, didn't have any paint on her bottom (though she probably had a coat of tar on all her unpainted hull timbers). There isn't even a mark at her waterline. (developments after her launching raise the possibility that the designers hadn't figured out where the waterline was.)

So you're on your own. Model Shipways makes acolor called "hull tallow," which is a very pale cream. That's probably as good a guess as anybody can make. Or you could try to represent dark stuff. Either way, nobody will be able to say you're wrong.

Hang in there.

GM, thanks for all the effort sir.  You are a good man Charlie Brown.

I was unable to open the link from work. I will review it from home.

Your thoughts about the condition/maintenance of the ship are very on track with my vision of it. I am really leaning towards building it that way. After all, it was a merchant ship. I can imagine they put just enough money into maintenance to keep it going. We can look at the condition of the Speedwell as an example. I think they patched it from leaks three times before they gave up on the ship and then sent her packing.

Having said that, Tilley may come along and blow a hole in my theory. LOL.

Staale--thanks for your input. I DO appreciate it.  I will post how I go on this. 

Hey Tanker--

Yeah interesting point about the windows. I had noticed that as well. Ah well. The show was entertaining none the less.

Thanks for your input about the coating, too...  The consensus seems to be that it could be either. 

Thanks for the input and support, Rdiaz. I appreciate it!!

Hi;

    I do definitely have to call attention to a Big Bad filmakers error . In the photos about the Squalid conditions and the Mayflower Compact .you will see , count them , at least Five very large stern windows .

   C,mon now the Mayflower stern design did not allow for three 12 pane double hung windows much less five . That looks like the rear of the great Cabin on the Black Pearl , for goodness sakes !    Tanker - Builder         P.S. I also believe the Mayflower and other ships of her type , Lacking better maintenance would,ve had a black tarry bottom or White Lead which sloughed off over time .

Read through this. I could not track down any of the footnotes, but it informs.

http://www.academia.edu/358814/The_Introduction_and_Use_of_Copper_Sheathing_-_A_History

The Mayflower would have been quite an afterthought in the shipping trade. So the methods of her maintenance would have been minimal.

It would look as though if any thought was given to her underwater preservation, it must have been the method of nailing wood strips set in tar over the hull planking, which in turn might have just looked like raw wood. Maybe oiled.

I for one suspect the ship was pretty rough looking. No money, sent to Hollland, Norway, France; a charter freight ship at best.

This is a very interesting build log of one of the best sailing ships Revell has produced. I hope you keep it going, and so far you're doing great! I'm sure there are plenty of people following it, even if they're not participative. 

I don't think you would be wrong if you used either blackish (tar) or white for the lower hull, so in my humble opinion just do it as you think it looks best. Of course someone might have more veritable historic information!

A question of color

I need to sort something out before I hit the model with a base color of paint. This question might be best answered by JTilley, but everyone is open to chime in.

What is the waterline color that I should use, and/or, would I be remiss if I didn't do one at all? Based on information that I pulled from The Neophyte Shipmodelers Jackstay, it could be white, or blackish. 

I realize that for this era of ship building it is where things start to get fuzzy.  In fact, the reference states that in 1620 the industry began using white coating. Well, the Mayflower sailed in 1620.  So this is right around that pivotal time period.

Does anyone have more data? The reference states that it was common practice to cover the bottom of ships with mixes of preserving coatings. So I probably need to do something. My preference would be to simulate a blackish coating.

Thoughts?

Below is an excerpt on the subject of paint.

Below: And more interesting facts.

Below: This is the source of the noted references. This book has been mentioned before in this WIP, by others, JT being one of them. I do recommend it for anyone looking to dive into ship building. It has nice illustrations and a lot of the basics for beginners.

So, go build the damn thing!

???? I am supposed to build this thing? Now you tell me.

Well, I better get to building or Master Morrison will break my kneecaps. Very much like how I broke the knee on the beakhead.

Yes, poor Tilley.  What would we do without him.

Staale--

thanks for sharing that story.  I love it!  I remember when model kits were sold in grocery stores too... In my case, I purchased the same kit from a thrift store at about the same age as when you did. I remember getting as far as installing all the decks when I had decided to paint it. Unfortunately, I did not have model paint, nor the money to buy some. So, I had improvised. I grabbed some white house paint. Oh yes, I did. You can imagine what happened. When I checked on the model the next day I was stunned to find that the finish had cracked, and much of it was curling up off the model. My first thought was, oh no! My second thought was, hey, that looks cool! Seeing it all gnarly made it look like an old dilapidated hulk. The only problem with this was that you had better not touch it or the paint will fleck off. So I left it as is, and occasionally I checked on my wreck to see what she is up to.

Oh the good old days.

Thanks for the kind words and responding!

Mike, you hit on something that I have been concerned about. I was concerned that maybe I go into too much detail, and that maybe people will take offence to my posts. In essence, that I come across as talking down to you all. I hope that people never feel that way. Your message has gone a long way to help remove that fear for me.

Thanks for all the kind words, and for encouraging me...

I am enjoying this thread immensely. The Revell Mayflower was the first sailing ship kit I ever built, back in the late seventies when I was eight years old or so; I remember going to sleep over at my grandmother's place with this kit as a bribe to keep me good and quiet. My mother had bought it for me at the local supermarket  (they sold plastic kits in the supermarket... they sold plastic kits in ALL the supermarkets!) Fond memories...

It is good to see that the Mayflower kit is still around, and to my adult self it is eye-opening to see whan skilled hands can make out of the old lady. 

cheer's mate , but most of my rigging knowledge has come from hounding poor old prof.jtilley who has helped me out immeasureably .

So, go build the damn thing!

Steve,

Everything you post - verbiage and pictures - I read and look at. I'm constantly finding new techniques (to me), and information that I hope to be able to use when I'm building my kits. Your WIP is as valuable to me as anyone else's. Please do continue to post - I ask this of you selfishly since works in progress invariably help me in this fun hobby.

Your determination to fix what's broken, try various methods to achieve your modeling goals and communicate with the regulars on this site is inspiring. My hat's off to you and keep your project available to all of us who are very, very interested.

Mike

Hey Steve, thanks for being faithful to this WIP, and to me. You have been there when on some days, others haven't been so much. I really appreciate that.

I am really glad that your are enjoying this WIP and that you are learning from it. That makes it all worthwhile. 

Also, I appreciate your kind words. I have to say this though. You are selling yourself way too short. I have seen the work that you are doing and it is top notch. Buddy, once I get to rigging, you will be helping me! Seriously, you know how to do those things and I am just a babe with it. I am less so. So you stick around too because I will need your help.

Thanks again my friend.

Say Marcus, thanks for your post. This means a lot to me. You don't have to know anything about sailing ships to stop in and say howdy. I appreciate that as much as the guys that give tips for me. Let's all have fun and feel free to post a message here anytime. Whether its about the build, or if you want to share something about what you are working on, or have worked on. Or maybe I will post a lame joke and you write to say thats a bad one Bakster.

Thanks again for stepping out and saying what you did!

steve please don't ever stop posting , the information I get off of you is invaluable to me . I would hate to think what I am if you are a newbie , maybe what you are doing is above other's like me abilities , we look learn and copy , the rest like jtilley , gm , etc , know how to assist you . I really am loving this build

steve5

I been following your WIP since you first posted.  I don't build sailing ships so I have nothing of value to add.  I wouldn't know the difference between a correct or incorrect rigged ship.  If like what I see or think I can contribute I will post it.  If I don't know what I am seeing I keep quiet. 

I check this forum at least twice a day and always looked forward to the progress everyone is making with their projects.  I hope to keep seeing your posts.

Yeah, getting bogged down in the details. I know that feeling.

I look forward to it. I know that it will be another nice one. 

Bakster

GM--then maybe my understanding of a WIP is the issue. If this is for me as you say, then why? If I want to be completely selfish about it and if this is utterly for me, then why bother posting the processes? That is work for me. Why do I want to do that? If a WIP is just about people helping me, then all I should do is post a question when it comes up. Why bother with a WIP?  I have trouble understanding it as you are presenting it. And maybe that is where I error.

My vision of this is a sharing of ideas, but also, to build some comraderay. Again, maybe my error and maybe a reason to change things.

Thanks about the 21 U boat update.  That should be cool. 

Templar--thanks for responding. What you wrote makes a big difference to me. I really appreciate it, and it does encourage me.

I will keep going with the WIP, guys.

Thanks again...

Steve

John--I feel you are 100% correct about all of that.

I have to tell you that though I have high expectation for this build, I don't think they reach the level of where I will want to plexiglas it. I am pretty confident that this build will be one that I will look back at and wish I did this, or that, or I had done this better. I guess that I won't know until I get there. If it develops into something that I really want to display long term, you bet I will plexiglas it, and I will find a way to secure it. Also, that is a good point about covering it during the build. I will surely heed that advice. My place gets dusty.

Here is the other thing. I am pretty sure that what I will end up doing is create model art taken from an image of the model itself. I did this with my first build. It takes less real-estate for me to hang a picture, than to find a space to display the model. But...again, if it turns out exceptional to me, I will consider different, or both.

Below is what I had created for the plane that I built. My goal is to do something similar with this build.

Thank you, John, for your encouragement, and your time.

This sort of thing is, of course, entirely at the modeler's personal discretion. But I can tell you from experience (mine and others) that a model not permanently fastened down to something is a disaster waiting to happen. I have no idea what the average life expectancy of an unprotected model wandering around on its own stand is, but it can't be long.

You might consider ordering a case (minus glass or plexiglas) from Model Expo. This one probably would do the job: http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product.asp?ITEMNO=GM3W . The price is pretty steep, but if you visit the Model Expo website you'll find a 50%-off sale pretty soon.

A cheaper alternative is to pay a call on a furniture store and see what it has in the way of curio cabinets. My wife and I found one that would be big enough for your Mayflower, with several glass shelves. My smaller ship models (incuding the Viking ship) live in it, as does my puny collection of aircraft models.

The idea of screwing the kit stand down to a wood base is a good one. But if the finished model isn't kept behind glass (or plexiglas), it won't last long - even if nobody of the feline or canine persuasion lives in your house. Cased models last indefinitely. (My oldest one, the Bounty, is now almost 40 years old and looks good as new.) Uncased sailing ship models almost invariably are only around for a few months. Even if they don't get damaged by humans or beasts, the dust alone will ruin the rigging a lot quicker than you think. And trying to remove dust from a sailing ship model's rigging is a useless exercise.

I like to find, or make, cardboard boxes to hold in-progress models. Otherwise, dust will start looking nasty long before the model is finished.

jtilley

I'm quite sure that plenty of people are following along, and just haven't been able to offer suggestions.

That's certainly true in my case. I follow and save as favorites these ship WIPs, and hope to live till I'm 90 so I can build one or two in my stash with some confidence. You think you're a newbie, as I posted elsewhere, what I don't know about modelling would fill Wikipedia. So far this is an outstanding thread and all I can offer is my encouragement. Remember this will be here for future ship wannabes.