PT-109

I know this has been debated back and forth on the forums ad nauseum ... as far as the outer hull, the concensus was "green" ... then you get into what SHADE of green ...

I was going to say do a search for PT-109 and color and just look in the Ships forum, but with our new and improved forums, I have no clue how to do that, nor do I have days to try and figure it out. But the answer to your question is in there ... somewhere ...

Online resources are a bit slim for the kind of internal detail which you desire

PT Boats.org does list copies of the original ELCO blueprints in their catalog.   http://www.ptboats.org/pdfs/BP-List.pdf

They are exactly what you will need - but will tend to get expensive.

Some of these have been reproduced in smaller format in Victor Chun's book 'American PT Boats in WWII' .   They are smaller, and all the information you may need are not there.  The popular-press books do not cover the kind of internal details you seek.

BTW -- the aftermarket resin Packard engines sold for aircraft models are not directly applicable for those used on PT boats.

You must really see the White Ensign photoetched detail set for the PT-109.  Many of the clunky details from the Revell kit are replaced with this kit.   They also make a mor accurate 37mm anti-tank gun which the PT-109 carried at the time of her loss.   Much better than the Hasegawa gun which has been used by may others previously.

Colors - basically semigloss white interior and a locally brewed MTB green over a Copperoid bottom.  White Ensign makes the correct green.  Copperoid was a redish/orange   primer-like color

Hi Ed,

As Ed Grune noted previously, the 109 boat was in a homebrew green that later became known as "Tropical Green". We have it matched and available in our Colourcoats enamels, item US 29. We have no minimum order on paints, and we ship worldwide.

You may also be able to find interior details in "Allied Coastal Forces, V.2" by Al Ross and John Lambers (I haven't check my copy lately).

With regard to the bow-mounted 37mm, I believe it was lashed to coconut logs on the forecastle.

Cheers,

John Snyder, White Ensign Models, http://WhiteEnsignModels.com

I am presently reading a book titled "Devil Boats" by William B. Breuer published in 1987. There is a photo of PT-66 in camo which I thought was interesting  since all the PT's I have seen were of one color. The photo is from the National Archives.

Just thought I would pass this on in case anyone would like to do a conversion.

Andy

Hippy-Ed

You can also get copies of the plans for PT-109-everything from hull lines to interior compartment arrengements- from the Floating Drydock. They've even got plans for all the weapons that were mounted on PT's during the war!

How big do you want your model? If you said 1/24 Or 1/25 (40" long model) then all you have to do is find an old car model kit(s) with a straight eight. With some photos you could convert it to marine use. I would post on the scale auto magazine forum for help in locating the car. There is bound to be someone there who could point you in the right direction. Good luck.

Andy

afulcher wrote:

... then all you have to do is find an old car model kit(s) with a straight eight. With some photos you could convert it to marine use. ...

Except the engines on 80-foot Elcos were Packard V-12s -- not straight 8s

The Chun book has some photos of the engines

The PT Boat.org plans include exhaust piping and other engine room details

Like I said previously - the available aftermarket engines are not DIRECT replacements.  I'd start with a 1:72 scale resin Packard aircraft engine and scratch-build the marine engine differences.   Use that as a master to make copies

Hippy-Ed wrote:

It is to my understanding there were 3 of them & one was turned sideways in the engine compartment?

Not sideways, but reversed from the other two.  I'm at work and can't confirm the exact configuration, but I think the port & starboard engines were 'direct drive' with their back-ends (i.e.the drive end) toward the stern.   The center engine was oriented with its drive end forward.  The power went through a V-drive to change the direction.   In the case of heavy maintenance on the P/S engines which would necessitate their removal - the center engine would need to be removed first.

Hippy-Ed

Check out this link from Battleship Cove

http://www.battleshipcove.org/pt-museum-history.htm

Interesting that they selected the V-12's as the cars with the V-12's were discontinued after 1939. Was someone trying to liquidate inventory?

Andy

And the decks should be in carrier-deck "deck blue" if stateside, if I remember it rightly.  Makes for a rakish paint job next to the "solid" green Papa Tares.

I've some family testimony that some of the early Higgins boats were "camoflaged" in every gray in the base's paint locker.  Speed was the goal, rather than precision or neatness--so there was some disregard for what we'd want to model as a "proper" paint job . . .

Hmm, how to make "scraper marks" in paint overspray on cockpit windows . . .

Here's a copy of a post I placed earlier this year .  The only thing I would add is that the 109 would not have the heater unit which I believe is part number 51 from the kit.  I hope this helps....

"I can help you witht he paint scheme for PT-109. It depends on what period of time you wish to represent. Most people build it at the time just before it was sunk. Go with a dark green. Either White Ensign Model 5-NG Navy Green or Model Masters "Grn. Drab Enamel". If painting with a spray brush I would suggest adding a few drops of white to lighten up and provided hilight to represent weathering.

Here's my latest information on how to build an accurate PT-109 from the Revell kit.

"Preparation
1. Buy the White Ensign Models (WEM) Photo Etch set for the PT Boats and the 1/72 37mm anti-tank gun.
2. Two options for drawings. One is the Squadron Publications PT Boat book. It's not too expensive and has a good drawing of the 109. The other is to pick up drawings from PT Boats Inc. which are 1/48 scale and very detailed. Just a couple of mistakes. 3. Paint - For the entire boat I would recommend either Testors Dark Green FS34079 or White Ensign Model Navy Green N-5G. Lighten this up a little with white to give it a more scale look. Weather as you like. Typically these boats had oil stains along the water line. For the bottom I like White Ensign Model Anti Fouling Red.

Details
Starting from stem to stern this is my recommendation...

Overall
1. Follow the WEM instructions for the photo etch set with the exceptions listed later.

Deck Details:
1. Remove the bow light leaving the base. The wiring trails off to the port side of the mount.
2. Sand off most or all the deck detail including the torpedo tube mounts. I don't think that the WEM set has the large scoop vents on the foredeck so I would leave those. Many people say that the deck was not planked but on this class it was. The problem with the kit is that it's out of scale. My recommendation is to remove it all. Be sure to remove the brackets for the raft. They are way out of scale. 3. Don't install the standards on the foredeck. 4. 37mm - This was never installed for action on the boat. They got so far as to bolt down two long 2 x 8 planks. Metal brackets were fitted over the axles to hold it in place but this was never completed. To keep from losing it they used additional lashing that probably extended to the toe rails.
5. There should only be one depth charge rack and it is located on the starboard side. The one that was originally on the port side was smashed through the deck when the port side, forward torpedo accidentally launched in high seas and blasted the depth charge through the deck nearly killing one of the crew who was trying to rest below. Due to this I would expect that more of the toe railing on the port side would be missing. Imagine a torpedo slamming into the depth charge and how much of the deck would be destroyed because of it. Imagine the repairs. They probably didn't have extra toe railing laying around.

Chart House/Cockpit
1. The horn should be removed and corrected or left off all together. If you install it refer to photos. I think you can scratch build one fairly easily. There are no photos showing the horn. 2. The windows on the forward side of the chart house should be painted over. I can't say about the port and starboard windows and there is no photographic evidence. Typically these were not painted over. 3. The cockpit was surrounded with armor which extends level with the top of the replaced windscreen all around and to the back. There's no photo evidence to see what was done on the starboard side. It was either painted over or armor. So I would just paint it over. The windscreen itself was also replaced with armor. 4. Typically the machine gun attached to the chart house would be rotated to the 4 o'clock position with the gun pointed skyward. This was done because the gunner would typically access it from forward of the turret on the starboard side of the chart house where there is a step.
5. The mount for the spot light is wrong. The mast is typically mounted behind the cockpit and not on the deck. When the boats were built there was a mount attached to the port side of the cockpit so the skipper could operate. Photos of the 109 indicate that this was removed. Probably scavenged by some other boat.


Day Cabin
1. There were no shades over the windows. These should be removed.
2. Do not install a mast. I'm certain it was gone. There is one photo of the boat in action and the mast isn't up. I would suggest installing mounts for the mast only. According to the skipper of PT-105 masts were either stowed or gone all together. Since it's not up while under way I would bet it didn't exist. 3. There is probably a flag box on the forward side of the day cabin and directly behind the cockpit.
4. There is a spay shield on the top of the day cabin adjacent to the rear turret. On the kit it is open into the day cabin. That's all wrong. It's simply a shield and the roof under it should be repaired and sealed up.
5. The spray shields extending from the day cabin should have support rods installed. You'll need a drawing that shows that. It would be tough to explain.
6. I would throw the life raft on top of the day cabin. The crews typically just threw them up there to keep them out of the way. It wouldn't be wrong to not have it all together. They certainly didn't have it after the collision. In port PT-109 had a dingy at their disposal that was scrounged.

Finishing
1. The numbering did not have black backgrounds. There are NO numbers on the hull. I would only put numbers on the forward side of the Chart House, the side of the forward turret, and on the port side of the cockpit just under where the window might have been. Just a hair more than a foot down from the top of the cockpit. Finally on the 20mm turret mount on the rear. The numbers with the kit are too large. I don't know where to find scale numbers. I would suggest putting a post on the FSM forum and see if anyone has any ideas.
2. The pin holding the 20mm in place broke. To keep it from flying around they tied it off to the depression rail so that's a nice detail.
3. Except for the windows on the front side of the chart house, the windows were glass and had covers on the inside of the boat. The WEM set has covers but to do it right you would mount them on the inside of the windows. A way to model this is to put a clear finish over the painted windows to give it the appearance that there is glass over the cover. Make sense?

I've never seen a model of the 109 done right, particularly in this scale. It's a lot of work but if you follow these instructions you'll have it nailed.

I hope that helps and doesn't make you crazy. Enjoy and be sure to post some photos!"

Yep, that two-tone gray scheme was a variant on Measure 1 camouflage, and used the prewar #5 Standard Navy Gray on the hull, and everything else--including the deck--was 5-D Dark Gray. Both colors available in our Colourcoats enamels.

BTW, those Packard V-12s were NOT the same engine as used in their cars.

Cheers,

John Snyder, White Ensign Models, http://WhiteEnsignModels.com

What were the diffrences?

Andy

Remove the obvious and add the obvious