PT-109

cthulhu77 wrote:

A Navy gent I talked to long ago said that they used a variety of colours on the boats as far as he could remember...whatever they had floating around.  There were also a lot of patches in different colours, so make sure that sucker looks "rode hard and left..."

weebles wrote:

Eddie, Did you get the email I just sent to Garth? I did read somewhere that the 109 was fitted with an early radar but removed because it was not effective.  I can't remember where I saw that though.  As for paint it's just confusing.  We know that it was home grown but how they came about the color is speculation.  I just know that vets describe it as "forest green".  Whatever that may mean to you.  Vets also describe the paint as heavily weathered because of the sun and salt water.  Dave

Eddie,

Did you get the email I just sent to Garth?

I did read somewhere that the 109 was fitted with an early radar but removed because it was not effective.  I can't remember where I saw that though. 

As for paint it's just confusing.  We know that it was home grown but how they came about the color is speculation.  I just know that vets describe it as "forest green".  Whatever that may mean to you.  Vets also describe the paint as heavily weathered because of the sun and salt water. 

Dave

PTConsultingNHR wrote:

Dave,   As to the mast? I think she had a mast.  May I ask you where you got all of this information on the 109?  I've been studying her for years and have not heard, or read anything about her not having a mast.   The same goes for the armor plating replacing the windshield glass.   Would you please email me both at PTConsultingNHR@aol.com and TCONNELL@stpaultravelers.com - thank you, I would really like to learn more about your findings.   Did you know that, just before Kennedy getting her, she had some sort of Army radar installed in her bow, but it was a failure and was removed.   Garth

It's a beautiful model.  Everything these guys do is a work of art.  But it is not an accurate 109.  If you look at the surviving photos of PT109 and read the book you can find the errors.  I've documented that information after years of taking notes and talking to vets.  Any time I see the 109 with the anti tank gun on the deck I'm assuming it's at the time of the sinking because that's the only time they had it on the deck. 

After looking at the Fine Art Models 109 the key problems that I see from a quick look at their photos are....

1.  The 109 at the time of sinking did not have a mast on the day cabin.  It probably never had one while Kennedy had the boat. 

2.  While in high seas the forward port torpedo tube on the 109 fired accidetally blowing the port depth charge through the deck.  It was patched over and not replaced.

3.  The windows on the chart house and day cabins are over done.  The windows on the chart house should be painted over and not clear. 

4.  There was no clear wind screen on the 109 at the time of sinking.  It was replaced by armor to protect the cockpit.

There's some other odd things going on with the model like the grate on the floor of the cockpit.  There should be a seating bench in there instead.  The door to the chart house has a lot of detail that didn't exist.  These early boats were very plain. 

The 109 had seen a lot of service by the time Kennedy got his hands on it.  It had gone through several modifications and received several different paint schemes. 

So that's my take. 

Dave 

I went back to look at Fine Art Models PT-109.  It's the first time I've been to their web site since posting photos of this model.  There's a lot wrong with that model for so much money.  For example the port depth charge in place with the anti tank gun on the deck, the clear wind screen, the mast, no seat in the cockpit, windows on the chart house.  I'm a big fan of their late model boat but this one they just got wrong. 

I'm not satisfied with the rear torp tube caps so I think I'm going to take a shot at casting some.  I've also soldered up some practice depression rails to replace the kit and photo etched options.  They look pretty good and I'm anxious to do the same on my 1/48 scale 105. 

I may need some coaching from you guys on posting photos. 

Dave

michel.vrtg wrote:

I noticed you removed the 3 vents on the bow... I left mine on amd am trying to drill them out You're right, I forgot to tell, I removed them, they will be replaced later.  Also, thank you for the text. Michel

I noticed you removed the 3 vents on the bow... I left mine on amd am trying to drill them out

You're right, I forgot to tell, I removed them, they will be replaced later.  Also, thank you for the text.

Michel

weebles wrote:

Here's a copy of a post I placed earlier this year .  The only thing I would add is that the 109 would not have the heater unit which I believe is part number 51 from the kit.  I hope this helps.... "I can help you witht he paint scheme for PT-109. It depends on what period of time you wish to represent. Most people build it at the time just before it was sunk. Go with a dark green. Either White Ensign Model 5-NG Navy Green or Model Masters "Grn. Drab Enamel". If painting with a spray brush I would suggest adding a few drops of white to lighten up and provided hilight to represent weathering. Here's my latest information on how to build an accurate PT-109 from the Revell kit. "Preparation 1. Buy the White Ensign Models (WEM) Photo Etch set for the PT Boats and the 1/72 37mm anti-tank gun. 2. Two options for drawings. One is the Squadron Publications PT Boat book. It's not too expensive and has a good drawing of the 109. The other is to pick up drawings from PT Boats Inc. which are 1/48 scale and very detailed. Just a couple of mistakes. 3. Paint - For the entire boat I would recommend either Testors Dark Green FS34079 or White Ensign Model Navy Green N-5G. Lighten this up a little with white to give it a more scale look. Weather as you like. Typically these boats had oil stains along the water line. For the bottom I like White Ensign Model Anti Fouling Red. Details Starting from stem to stern this is my recommendation... Overall 1. Follow the WEM instructions for the photo etch set with the exceptions listed later. Deck Details: 1. Remove the bow light leaving the base. The wiring trails off to the port side of the mount. 2. Sand off most or all the deck detail including the torpedo tube mounts. I don't think that the WEM set has the large scoop vents on the foredeck so I would leave those. Many people say that the deck was not planked but on this class it was. The problem with the kit is that it's out of scale. My recommendation is to remove it all. Be sure to remove the brackets for the raft. They are way out of scale. 3. Don't install the standards on the foredeck. 4. 37mm - This was never installed for action on the boat. They got so far as to bolt down two long 2 x 8 planks. Metal brackets were fitted over the axles to hold it in place but this was never completed. To keep from losing it they used additional lashing that probably extended to the toe rails. 5. There should only be one depth charge rack and it is located on the starboard side. The one that was originally on the port side was smashed through the deck when the port side, forward torpedo accidentally launched in high seas and blasted the depth charge through the deck nearly killing one of the crew who was trying to rest below. Due to this I would expect that more of the toe railing on the port side would be missing. Imagine a torpedo slamming into the depth charge and how much of the deck would be destroyed because of it. Imagine the repairs. They probably didn't have extra toe railing laying around. Chart House/Cockpit 1. The horn should be removed and corrected or left off all together. If you install it refer to photos. I think you can scratch build one fairly easily. There are no photos showing the horn. 2. The windows on the forward side of the chart house should be painted over. I can't say about the port and starboard windows and there is no photographic evidence. Typically these were not painted over. 3. The cockpit was surrounded with armor which extends level with the top of the replaced windscreen all around and to the back. There's no photo evidence to see what was done on the starboard side. It was either painted over or armor. So I would just paint it over. The windscreen itself was also replaced with armor. 4. Typically the machine gun attached to the chart house would be rotated to the 4 o'clock position with the gun pointed skyward. This was done because the gunner would typically access it from forward of the turret on the starboard side of the chart house where there is a step. 5. The mount for the spot light is wrong. The mast is typically mounted behind the cockpit and not on the deck. When the boats were built there was a mount attached to the port side of the cockpit so the skipper could operate. Photos of the 109 indicate that this was removed. Probably scavenged by some other boat. Day Cabin 1. There were no shades over the windows. These should be removed. 2. Do not install a mast. I'm certain it was gone. There is one photo of the boat in action and the mast isn't up. I would suggest installing mounts for the mast only. According to the skipper of PT-105 masts were either stowed or gone all together. Since it's not up while under way I would bet it didn't exist. 3. There is probably a flag box on the forward side of the day cabin and directly behind the cockpit. 4. There is a spay shield on the top of the day cabin adjacent to the rear turret. On the kit it is open into the day cabin. That's all wrong. It's simply a shield and the roof under it should be repaired and sealed up. 5. The spray shields extending from the day cabin should have support rods installed. You'll need a drawing that shows that. It would be tough to explain. 6. I would throw the life raft on top of the day cabin. The crews typically just threw them up there to keep them out of the way. It wouldn't be wrong to not have it all together. They certainly didn't have it after the collision. In port PT-109 had a dingy at their disposal that was scrounged. Finishing 1. The numbering did not have black backgrounds. There are NO numbers on the hull. I would only put numbers on the forward side of the Chart House, the side of the forward turret, and on the port side of the cockpit just under where the window might have been. Just a hair more than a foot down from the top of the cockpit. Finally on the 20mm turret mount on the rear. The numbers with the kit are too large. I don't know where to find scale numbers. I would suggest putting a post on the FSM forum and see if anyone has any ideas. 2. The pin holding the 20mm in place broke. To keep it from flying around they tied it off to the depression rail so that's a nice detail. 3. Except for the windows on the front side of the chart house, the windows were glass and had covers on the inside of the boat. The WEM set has covers but to do it right you would mount them on the inside of the windows. A way to model this is to put a clear finish over the painted windows to give it the appearance that there is glass over the cover. Make sense? I've never seen a model of the 109 done right, particularly in this scale. It's a lot of work but if you follow these instructions you'll have it nailed. I hope that helps and doesn't make you crazy. Enjoy and be sure to post some photos!"

Here is a picture of my sanded deck (though, not finished yet).

Hoping I did not remove too many parts.

http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/PT117/photos/photo15.html

Michel

Hippy-Ed wrote:

Thanks Al, I had a hard time with seeing the images clearly.  It'll be awhile before I can attempt to recreate the engines for my PT boat. I am considering the Liberty V-12 and the Rolls Royce Merlin 61 for a base to work from. The Liberty block is fairly close & the Cylinder bank looks acceptable from the  Merlin 61 with the OHC What is your take on this Al? You have quite alot more knowledge than I do

OK, I'll see if I can find another site with better graphics.  These were copied at 600dpi, so the original jpg should be pretty good.  If you have ACF, V2, you have John's redrawn 4M plans, anyway. 

As for cobbling together a 4M, you have only yourself to please... :-}.  I'm a "rivet counter", so I tend to be a bit anal about details.

What happened to the photo insert here?

Al

The Allison and 4M have little in common.  However, I've posted drawings of the 4M2500 from the maintenance manual at www.coastalforcesplans.com/4m2500 for reference.  If these aren't clear, let me know and I'll try another approach.

Al Ross

smokinguns3 wrote:

Only you would think of that.Thell be getting phone call's yes is Ed there Ed who!