I've been using a Grex brush for about a year now and am very satified. Mine is the model with the small paint cup mounted on top- I think the XG model. It has the top mounted button trigger so I'm sorry I have no experience with the pistol grip design.

Still all in all it's a well-made, quality brush.

From what I gather from the Grex website, the first half of the trigger travel controls the air, and the rest controls the needle.

Gamera, thanks for your quick reply.

Bgrigg, that's what I don't get, how can you control the air when  you have to keep pulling to get paint. With a 'regular' trigger, how far down you go controls the air and then you pull back to get paint.  But since there's only one continuous motion with the pistol grip, how can this same control be achieved?  Should have asked the guy giving the demo, but there were too many people around and I was impatient.

Waikong,check with Marc Rocca (wingnut) I think he said he did his Jagdtiger with a Grex .

Well, there really is no "control" for air, the air is either on or off, there is no little bit of air, a bit more, then all the air. Pulling the trigger back halfway starts the air flow, just like depressing a top mounted trigger does on the regular DA airbrush. The second half of the trigger travel controls the needle position, again just like a regular airbrush does.

What I don't get is how do you pull back the needle to clean out the tip in case of the paint drying prematurely. In my 100LG I can leave the air off, and pull back the needle with the trigger. That doesn't seem possible with the Tritium trigger.

Bgrigg

What I don't get is how do you pull back the needle to clean out the tip in case of the paint drying prematurely. In my 100LG I can leave the air off, and pull back the needle with the trigger.

Bill,

That's the first time I've heard of anyone doing that.  I thought the needle was the part that needs cleaning.

Don

waikong

Was at the NJIPMS show 2 weeks ago and GREX was there showing their airbrushes and compressors. I was particularly impressed with the model (Tritium)  with a 'pistol' style trigger instead of the conventional top finger tigger.

Has anyone have experiences with them? How does the pistal style work as a double action brush, as there's only one single motion - pulling back vs the tradtional trigger that allows me to control air (down) and paint (back) separately. I'm not sure how that works in a pistol grip, sures looks more comfortable though.

Waikong, did you check the ARC "Tools n Tips" forum yet.  Here is one thread that Tritium model is mentioned.

Thanks for the link to ARC, I'll check it out now.

Don Wheeler

 

Bgrigg:

 

What I don't get is how do you pull back the needle to clean out the tip in case of the paint drying prematurely. In my 100LG I can leave the air off, and pull back the needle with the trigger.

 

 

Bill,

That's the first time I've heard of anyone doing that.  I thought the needle was the part that needs cleaning.

Don

Don,

You paint with enamels, right? You don't suffer tip dry like us acrylic painters do. What happens is the acrylic paint will start to dry on the spray regulator and build up then clog. By pulling back the needle without using air, you can use a swab dipped in thinner or alcohol to clean out the tip. If you watch a T-Shirt artist work, they just reach in and use their finger tips, but they pump out a lot more paint than I do!

With the Grex trigger controlling the air, you can't easily pull back the needle to do this.

Had I purchased my Grex before I got an Iwata, I probably wouldn't have bought the Iwata.

I picked up this set from MidTenn Hobbies...which advertise here on FSM

HawkeyeHobbies

Had I purchased my Grex before I got an Iwata, I probably wouldn't have bought the Iwata.

Gerald, can you shed some light on Waihong's original question:

How do you get double action from a single trigger pull?

How do you re-learn from the Iwata push-pull trigger?

From the Grex website:

Double Action Pistol Style Trigger

An intuitive, easy-to-use, and comfortable trigger system that offers fine control from detailed to wide spraying. Two stage operation; first half of trigger motion controls the air and the second half controls the paint volume.

Bgrigg

From the Grex website:

Double Action Pistol Style Trigger

An intuitive, easy-to-use, and comfortable trigger system that offers fine control from detailed to wide spraying. Two stage operation; first half of trigger motion controls the air and the second half controls the paint volume.

Bill, I have seen that. It is SINGLE action on my book. (Yes, it is different from the traditional single action such as the Badger 200 where the trigger controls only the air flow.) I just don't understand how Grex justify calling it "double action". What better than getting an expert opinion from a Grex user, Gerald?

Double Action usually refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls both air and paint (down for air, back for paint). It allows for varying line widths while spraying. (No, I did not master this skill if you ask me.)

No, a single action's trigger only turns the air on or off, and you manually position the needle, which cannot be adjusted (at least not easily) while using the airbrush. Dual action use the same trigger for both air and needle position. Push down for air and pull back for paint. The Grex trigger is pull back part way for air and pull back more for some paint and even more for more paint.

It actually looks fairly comfortable, and intuitive.

Are you then saying with a double action brush, the air is ether on or off? That the airflow does not increase as you press the trigger down? I was just doing some airbrushing this morning, and it sure seems like the more I push the trigger in, the more air comes through. I count on this sometimes to feather my finsihes, or have I been fooling myself all alone on how this works?

waikong

Are you then saying with a double action brush, the air is ether on or off? That the airflow does not increase as you press the trigger down? I was just doing some airbrushing this morning, and it sure seems like the more I push the trigger in, the more air comes through. I count on this sometimes to feather my finsihes, or have I been fooling myself all alone on how this works?

You may have some control over air flow with your trigger, but it was not designed for that.  It is actually a poppet valve like you have in the valve stem of your tires.  Normal use is to press the trigger all the way down and control paint flow by forward and aft motion.

Don

Well, I've never heard of an airbrush that has a modulating trigger for airflow. An airbrush needs a certain amount of air pressure in order to atomize the paint and modulating the air could potentially lead to all sorts of issues with paint flow that I find it difficult to comprehend a use for that ability.

I just fired mine up to see if I could feel a difference in air flow with my Badger 100LG, and it sure seems to me that it is either on or off. Now I'm using the unscientific measurement of pointing the nozzle at my finger and depressing the trigger. I cannot adjust the trigger to a point where I feel only a little air coming out. The trigger has a mere 1/16" of travel in which to adjust the air flow in, and that seems too fine of an adjustment to attempt such control. It takes a certain amount of finger pressure to overcome the spring assembly that holds the air flow off.

It would be analogous to compare an airbrush to a handgun, pulling the trigger harder doesn't fire the bullet any faster.

The only air control I've seen on an airbrush are the MAC control valves as offered by Grex, Iwata and others. That allows minute amounts of air pressure change at the airbrush without going to the regulator. A dubious ability for modeling IMHO. Being able to adjust air flow in tiny increments may be of some value for airbrush illustrators who use inks and non-pigmented media, but I can't see the need to adjust between 12 and say 12.25 psi for model paints.

Bgrigg

Well, I've never heard of an airbrush that has a modulating trigger for airflow.

Don Wheeler

You may have some control over air flow with your trigger, but it was not designed for that.  It is actually a poppet valve like you have in the valve stem of your tires. 

We have many Badger users on this forum. I will use some direct quote from this page.

SINGLE ACTION refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls only the air flow. The amount of fluid is regulated by turning the needle adjustment screw. When the trigger is depressed, a pre-set amount of fluid is sprayed.

This applies to the Badger 200 and said trigger controls "AIR FLOW ONLY" by design. It is 180 degree opposite to what Bill and Don said. I don't have one so I will let the Badger 200 user to describe how their airbrush works.

Don Wheeler

Normal use is to press the trigger all the way down and control paint flow by forward and aft motion.

Don

From the same Badger page:

DUAL ACTION refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls both air and color (down for air, back for color). This style airbrush allows for varying line widths while spraying.

This applies to the Badger 100 series. Modeler may work differently than a fine artist doing painting and do not need Badger's intended purpose. But it still does not make a Badger trigger an "on-off" only switch.

I know these facts without haveing to look at the Badger page. I just push the trigger on my Iwata in and out and can feel the distinctive difference in air flow. No paint comes out until I pull back the trigger.

We all know that the "trigger" Grex is different. Can we let a user like Gerald to explain it instead of jumping to conclusion. This is the original question asked.

Don Wheeler

 

waikong:

 

Are you then saying with a double action brush, the air is ether on or off? That the airflow does not increase as you press the trigger down? I was just doing some airbrushing this morning, and it sure seems like the more I push the trigger in, the more air comes through. I count on this sometimes to feather my finsihes, or have I been fooling myself all alone on how this works?

 

 

You may have some control over air flow with your trigger, but it was not designed for that.  It is actually a poppet valve like you have in the valve stem of your tires.  Normal use is to press the trigger all the way down and control paint flow by forward and aft motion.

Don

 

why would you always press it fully down? especially for doing fine line or camo patterns where you want low pressure so you can move in right up close to your part and have full control

most of the time i use my airbrush i barely even push the trigger part way down for low pressure  or if im painting a car and want full spray pattern I'll use full pressure.

i thought this was the beauty of a dual action airbrush...

JTRACING

 

why would you always press it fully down? especially for doing fine line or camo patterns where you want low pressure so you can move in right up close to your part and have full control

most of the time i use my airbrush i barely even push the trigger part way down for low pressure  or if im painting a car and want full spray pattern I'll use full pressure.

i thought this was the beauty of a dual action airbrush...

If you have the dexterity to control air flow by finger pressure on the trigger, more power to you.  I can't.  Dual action doesn't mean dual variable action.  A variable air valve could be used.  But it would probably have a longer throw, and it would be a bugger to learn to use.

Here is a quote from an on line airbrushing lesson at howtoairbrush.com.

"While airbrushing always leave the air on trigger fully depressed, air always on."

The reason some people like the Mac valve is that it allows them to alter the air flow right at the airbrush.  I just reach over and adjust the regulator on my air line.  Whatever floats your boat.

Don

thats cool, i dont use a regulator i like to do it on the fly so you can vary spray pressure and whatnot as your painting

with the trigger type, it gives you lower air pressure when the needle is less open for fine lines etc and more pressure as you pull back for full coverage. its just not as controllable as the old style push button. because if you pull all the way back you are stuck with high pressure unless you have a regulator on your compressor i suppose.

Wow, I didn't konw I was opening such a can of worms here. It sure seems like different airbrushes have different behaviors? I use my aztek 470 (yes, I know lots of people hate it) and it has at least 1/4" of travel, it seems to vary airflow to me. It does alow me to vary how much 'strong' the air is. It also has a dial in the rear that seems to behave like the MAC valve, that is it limits how much paint can come out, even with trigger pulled completely back.

Thanks for everyone's input, I'm about as confused as before, but I've learned a lot! Perhaps the pistol grip grex behaves as those airbrushes that basically have on/off for air? Not having experience with other airbrushes, I had assumed all dual action brush actions are the same.

waikong

Wow, I didn't konw I was opening such a can of worms here. It sure seems like different airbrushes have different behaviors? I use my aztek 470 (yes, I know lots of people hate it) and it has at least 1/4" of travel, it seems to vary airflow to me. It does alow me to vary how much 'strong' the air is. It also has a dial in the rear that seems to behave like the MAC valve, that is it limits how much paint can come out, even with trigger pulled completely back.

Thanks for everyone's input, I'm about as confused as before, but I've learned a lot! Perhaps the pistol grip grex behaves as those airbrushes that basically have on/off for air? Not having experience with other airbrushes, I had assumed all dual action brush actions are the same.

Hey, we're all learning something. I didn't know the Aztek had that much air control.  It is a unique design.  I suspect the knob on the back limits needle travel.  A Mac valve limits air.

I looked at your web site and you do some beautiful work.

Don

Don Wheeler

waikong:

Not having experience with other airbrushes, I had assumed all dual action brush actions are the same.

Hey, we're all learning something. I didn't know the Aztek had that much air control.  It is a unique design.  I suspect the knob on the back limits needle travel.  A Mac valve limits air.

I looked at your web site and you do some beautiful work.

Don

In deed, I learn something new today. There are significant difference in trigger action between Badger and others. I was intrigued by the comments that Don and Bill Grigg made about the push action of the trigger that it is merely an on-off for air flow. I took out my 5 internal mix, dual action airbrushes and do a subjective, non-scientific test this afternoon. The airbrushes are:

Iwata Eclipse HP-CS, H&S Evolution Silverline Solo, Badger Patriot 105F, PowerCat 203 (CM C+ clone) and PowerCat 800 (155 clone).

The air flow measurement instrument is my left hand palm. And my conclusion:

1. All the triggers, including the Badger, control the air flow AND the paint flow. Push down for air and pull back for paint.
2. All triggers have about the same travel distance, about 1/8 inch.
3. The air flow trigger action ARE NOT the same. For the Iwata and the H&S, the air flow varies with the down stroke until the last quarter travel. For the Badger and the PowerCat's, the down trigger is more sensitive, some air flow change in the first quarter stroke which can be felt and controlled. After the first quarter, the trigger does not seem to control the air flow the rest 3/4 stroke.
4. The PowerCat 203 has a MAC (micro air control) valve which provides very graduate and line air flow control if you need it.
5. From Bill Grigg's description of the Badger 100LG trigger, the Badger characteristic seems not Patriot only.
6. From the post by Waikong, the Aztek seems to have comparable air flow trigger action to the Iwata and H&S.

This seems to explain why Bill Grigg and Don Wheeler had a different view on the dual action trigger. This is only one data point for the Badger Patriot. It would be wonderful if other users can post side-by-side observation of other brand mix.

I report only my observations. No preference or statement about which is better. Don't hit me. Feel free to disagree with my observations. Test and post your results.

keilau

 

1. All triggers have about the same travel distance, about 1/8 inch.
2. The air flow trigger action ARE NOT the same. For the Iwata and the H&S, the air flow varies with the down stroke until the last quarter travel. For the Badger and the PowerCat's, the down trigger is more sensitive, some air flow change in the first quarter stroke which can be felt and controlled. After the first quarter, the trigger does not seem to control the air flow the rest 3/4 stroke.

So, from what you found, with the Iwata and the H&S, air goes from full off to full on with a trigger displacement of about 3/32 of an inch.  That's pretty sensitive.  Do you find that this is of any real value when painting?  Apparently, the Aztek has a stroke about twice as long.

Don

Don Wheeler

keilau:

1. All triggers have about the same travel distance, about 1/8 inch.
2. The air flow trigger action ARE NOT the same. For the Iwata and the H&S, the air flow varies with the down stroke until the last quarter travel. For the Badger and the PowerCat's, the down trigger is more sensitive, some air flow change in the first quarter stroke which can be felt and controlled. After the first quarter, the trigger does not seem to control the air flow the rest 3/4 stroke.

 

So, from what you found, with the Iwata and the H&S, air goes from full off to full on with a trigger displacement of about 3/32 of an inch.  That's pretty sensitive.  Do you find that this is of any real value when painting?  Apparently, the Aztek has a stroke about twice as long.

Don

Don,

I paint more less like you do. I start the air flow first by push down on the trigger before pull back to control the paint. I have never mastered the skill of a fine artist to paint variable line width as I go. I have not done any free hand camo either, always masking.

Other modelers like James T (JTRACING) or Waikong found air flow control useful. I would expect that control comes in handy if one does more free hand camo or mott.

When you compare an Iwata and a Badger side-by-side, you will really have to look hard to notice the range of air flow change in an 1/32 stroke of the Badger. The longer 1/10" stroke of the Iwata is much easier to notice the effect. I am not surprised that you found the Badger trigger acts like an on-off only switch.

I observation is on the difference only. Don't read it any further.

I have posted several times before that there is difference in the nozzle and taper of the Iwata HP-CS vs. the Badger Patriot 105F (fine needle). The Iwata needle taper is twice longer that results in significant difference in the paint control action. I said that the Patriot is adequate for my level of modeling skill, but I prefer the Iwata style of paint control which provide a longer and more linear action. It is easier for me, have a better sense of accuracy and give more potential for future skill build up. I will strongly suggest that you try one of the Iwata and Harder & Steenbeck again. Does the air flow trigger action make a differeent to a highly skillful modeler? With your modeling skill so much higher than mine, your report will be much more helpful to the other modelers. 

Don, thanks for compliments regarding my website.

Thanks everyone for their input, I really learned so much in this thread - makes my hunting a new airbrush that much more interesting.

keilau

 

 Does the air flow trigger action make a differeent to a highly skillful modeler? With your modeling skill so much higher than mine, your report will be much more helpful to the other modelers. 

Whooops!  It's getting pretty deep in here.

Don

keilau

Bill, I have seen that. It is SINGLE action on my book. (Yes, it is different from the traditional single action such as the Badger 200 where the trigger controls only the air flow.) I just don't understand how Grex justify calling it "double action". What better than getting an expert opinion from a Grex user, Gerald?

Double Action usually refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls both air and paint (down for air, back for paint). It allows for varying line widths while spraying. (No, I did not master this skill if you ask me.)

I won't claim to be an expert, but I've messed around with a grex on a few occassions and have been sorely tempted to buy one.

The Grex is a double action - you pull back to start the air and continue pulling to get paint.  Once the air is flowing, your control isin how far you pull back to release the needle and open the nozzle - thus varying the volume of paint being sprayed.  If you want to adjust airflow, you'll have to do that on your compressor.

They really are nice brushes.  Just picking one up at a show I was able to, literally, write my name as if I was using a pen.  The nozzle is also set up to allow you to touch the surface you are painting (or nearly so) and not get trapped air causing turbulence that disrupts the paint flow.

The one criticism I have heard (from a freind who owns one) is that they are a bit of a PITA to clean - particularly the version with the side-mount, ambidextrous paint bottle.

keilau

Bgrigg:

Well, I've never heard of an airbrush that has a modulating trigger for airflow.

 

Don Wheeler:

You may have some control over air flow with your trigger, but it was not designed for that.  It is actually a poppet valve like you have in the valve stem of your tires. 

 

We have many Badger users on this forum. I will use some direct quote from this page.

SINGLE ACTION refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls only the air flow. The amount of fluid is regulated by turning the needle adjustment screw. When the trigger is depressed, a pre-set amount of fluid is sprayed.

This applies to the Badger 200 and said trigger controls "AIR FLOW ONLY" by design. It is 180 degree opposite to what Bill and Don said. I don't have one so I will let the Badger 200 user to describe how their airbrush works.

 

From the same Badger page:

DUAL ACTION refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls both air and color (down for air, back for color). This style airbrush allows for varying line widths while spraying.

This applies to the Badger 100 series. Modeler may work differently than a fine artist doing painting and do not need Badger's intended purpose. But it still does not make a Badger trigger an "on-off" only switch.

I know these facts without haveing to look at the Badger page. I just push the trigger on my Iwata in and out and can feel the distinctive difference in air flow. No paint comes out until I pull back the trigger.

We all know that the "trigger" Grex is different. Can we let a user like Gerald to explain it instead of jumping to conclusion. This is the original question asked.

Where is the confusion??!!  The Badger definition you just quoted describes PRECISELY that the Grex Airbrush does?  You have one trigger.  Pull it a little, you get air.  Pull it a little more, you get paint.  Same trigger, controls both.  It is the same with your Iwata, the action is just different.  I mean, on your Iwata, you CAN get just air, right?  But you CAN"T get just  paint?  Same thing on the Grex.

In a single action brush, the only thing you control with the trigger is the air - you get air, you get paint, end of story.

You are right, however, that with some double actions, you can vary the amount of air.  I can do it with my Badger 150 - there is enough 'play' in the trigger that I can get just a little air flow.  But, to be honest, the best and easiest way to control airflow, in my opinion, is at the compressor with a pressure regulator....

What's interesting to me is that since I had a cheapo airbrush compressor (the company is out of business) and I have no regulator, I've learned to use my airbrush's trigger to control the airflow. I just assumed all dual action airbrush worked this way, and thus always thought the regulator was a bit of a luxury. It does allow you to set the Maximum pressure you want. I've been the lookout to upgrade to a better compressor and perhaps an airbrush.

While my Aztek have served me fine for almost 10 year - it's been repaired for free under it's lifetime warranty once and looks like it needs another one now. The main issue seems to be that I didn't clean the brush well enough and paint may now be permanent stuck inside. I now longer can use the brush in full dual mode, as some paint spray out even when only air should. Unfortunately, I can't open the thing up without voiding the warranty - so maybe an airbrush that I can strip completely will be better for someone like me who doesn't clean his brush as well as he should.

What attracted me to the Grex Titanium is the pistol grip, seems to much less tiring than the traditonal trigger and perhaps easier control.  It's a tossup between the Grex or a Badger Renegade Spirit.  For thet compressor, I'm thinking of going with a Silentaire scorpion I - has the pressure gauage, moisture trap, and the auto-shutoff. It's also rated sound wise about the same as the Grex compressor, which I heard at the model show and seems nice and quiet to me.

I contacted Grex directly for clarification on the Tritium's trigger works. First my email, I have bolded the section pertaining to the on/off trigger:

bgriggattelusdotnet wrote:
I belong to a scale modeling forum, and there is an argument about how the Tritium trigger works. Some people are convinced that the trigger adjusts the air pressure, while I am convinced that the air pressure remains constant at the airbrush and the trigger only controls whether it is on or off. Can someone from your company please explain properly so the argument can be resolved? I have already provided the image showing how the trigger works, along with the explanation from the web page on the Tritium, but they aren't having it.

/forums/p/127325/1283226.aspx#1283226

Thanks for your time, Bill Grigg

And now for their reply, again, I have bolded (and italicized) the pertinent sections:

Hello Bill,

Thanks for your help.

The short answer to your question is you are right.

Here's my longer detailed answer regarding this type of double action
trigger: There isn't an official technical guide that defines airbrush terminology, but its understood that single action refers to the trigger controlling one thing, which is the air. Whereas double action refers to the trigger controlling two things, the air as well as the amount of paint volume. In a single action airbrush, the paint volume is adjusted somewhere else on the airbrush.

Early double action airbrushes that used the traditional push button trigger had a tendency to have a longer vertical trigger throw. In other words, the distance that the trigger can move up and down is longer resulting in the ability to control how much air is released. It could be done, but not necessarily easy to control both the amount of air and amount of paint simultaneously. Most traditional double action airbrushes today don't have that long throw and the air control is used mostly as an on/off button.

Because of this transition, the pistol style double action trigger is a natural evolution. The first half of the trigger pull turns on the air fully. Then the second half of the trigger pull will control the amount of paint volume. The user will sense more resistance in the second half so they'll know where the paint flow begins. Adjustment of the amount of air is not possible with this trigger. But because motion is only in one direction and the air is always on before paint (and the paint is off before the air is off), this eliminates a lot of the control difficulties users had with the traditional double action triggers. Such as not spitting/spattering when the trigger is released.

Even in today's airbrushes, it's still possible to use current traditional double action triggers to control the amount of air. Again, its difficult, but not impossible. Of all the thousands of people I've met at tradeshows, I've only run into two people that use it that way. They are impressive and the more power to them. We are by no means saying that the pistol style trigger is better. It just makes it easier for those that don't want to or need to control the amount of air with the trigger. For those that want to stick to the traditional double action trigger, they still have that option. At the end of the day, its just a matter of preference.

But regardless of which double action trigger one chooses, the traditional push button or the pistol style, the user can easily and precisely control the amount of air by using our G-MAC accessory.
http://www.grexusa.com/grexairbrush/G-MAC.php5

If you need any further clarification or if you have any additional questions, feel free to contact us again.

Regards,
Raymond
Grex Airbrush

So it seems we are all correct, as Raymond has clarified the Grex trigger is on/off only. And some older triggers did allow for some adjustment during the vertical travel. I guess I'll have to let Raymond know that there are a bunch more exceptional airbrush artists to add to his short list.

Boyd, if you can control differing air flows with your 150, you have a delicate touch on the trigger, or perhaps your airbrush is older than mine or has a longer vertical travel. I can only get on or off and with a scant 1/16" travel, I don't even attempt it.

I am also waiting for an answer from Ken at Badger for clarification from him on air flow control with Badger airbrushes, and will post when I have that information. I do know that they sell a "bakery" edition of the 200 for cake decorating, and it has the air valve removed so that the air is constantly on.

Bgrigg

 

Boyd, if you can control differing air flows with your 150, you have a delicate touch on the trigger, or perhaps your airbrush is older than mine or has a longer vertical travel. I can only get on or off and with a scant 1/16" travel, I don't even attempt it.

I am also waiting for an answer from Ken at Badger for clarification from him on air flow control with Badger airbrushes, and will post when I have that information. I do know that they sell a "bakery" edition of the 200 for cake decorating, and it has the air valve removed so that the air is constantly on.

 

Bill

Interesting conversation with Raymond.  Some good info there.

Don't read too much into my comment about controlling the airflow.  I don't have great control over it, but as I depress the trigger I get to a 'sweet spot' when the air starts to flow.  If I am really light with my touch, I can hover the trigger right there and let the air 'seep' out.  But, it would be a stretch to say I have 'control' over it.  It is useful for doing some light misting, but it does take a lot of effort to 'hold' the spot, so it is not anything I'd say is really effective for any significant sized project.

bbrowniii

Where is the confusion??!!  The Badger definition you just quoted describes PRECISELY that the Grex Airbrush does?  You have one trigger.  Pull it a little, you get air.  Pull it a little more, you get paint.  Same trigger, controls both.  It is the same with your Iwata, the action is just different.  I mean, on your Iwata, you CAN get just air, right?  But you CAN"T get just  paint?  Same thing on the Grex.

In a single action brush, the only thing you control with the trigger is the air - you get air, you get paint, end of story.

You are right, however, that with some double actions, you can vary the amount of air.  I can do it with my Badger 150 - there is enough 'play' in the trigger that I can get just a little air flow.  But, to be honest, the best and easiest way to control airflow, in my opinion, is at the compressor with a pressure regulator....

Sorry, I have to say that I am more confused than ever by some of the comments.

It was agreed that ALL airbrushes need both air flow and paint flow to work. Do we call all airbrush "dual action"?

On the Badger 200 series, the paint flow is on-off only. The push down trigger controls the air flow. Badger calls this a "single action" airbrush because, apparently, the on-off paint flow is a given and does not count as "an action". What Badger does is consistent with most other manufacturers.

The Grex pull trigger series, the air flow is on-off only. The trigger controls the paint flow only. Bill and you insist that this is dual action. I don't get it.

The main question is whether a highly skilled modeler benefit from a traditional "dual action" airbrush where the trigger gives a range of control over both the air flow AND the paint flow. I hope that master modelers like Waikong or Don Wheeler will help us understand it better.

Bill,  That's fantastic information, you really went the extra mile to clear this issue up!  Much appreciated.  As for those of us who have learned to control the air pressure with the trigger being exceptional airbrush artists, speaking for myself, I only WISH!  I think it took me over a year just to feel comforatble with using an airbrush and another not to be intimidated by it.  After all these years, I still think it has a mind of its own sometimes.

keilau

 

 

Sorry, I have to say that I am more confused than ever by some of the comments.

It was agreed that ALL airbrushes need both air flow and paint flow to work. Do we call all airbrush "dual action"?

No, we call them airbrushes.

On the Badger 200 series, the paint flow is on-off only. The push down trigger controls the air flow. Badger calls this a "single action" airbrush because, apparently, the on-off paint flow is a given and does not count as "an action". What Badger does is consistent with most other manufacturers.

No, this is incorrect. The trigger operates the air flow only, and IS the "single" action. The needle, which controls the paint flow is a separate setting with no link to the trigger. Since the adjustment of the needle is done prior to using it, it is not considered an action used in the operation of the airbrush, but is a setting.

The Grex pull trigger series, the air flow is on-off only. The trigger controls the paint flow only. Bill and you insist that this is dual action. I don't get it.

Dual action airbrushes control both the (on/off) air flow by depressing the trigger (action 1), as well as the paint flow by pulling back the trigger (action 2). With the Grex (and I suspect the Iwata Kustom TH & TR models) trigger controls the air flow (action 1) and the paint flow (action 2) but do both with the same linear motion.

The main question is whether a highly skilled modeler benefit from a traditional "dual action" airbrush where the trigger gives a range of control over both the air flow AND the paint flow. I hope that master modelers like Waikong or Don Wheeler will help us understand it better.

The simple fact remains that virtually every dual action airbrush on the market today controls the air flow as on/off only. Older airbrushes may have allowed (limited) air flow adjustment with the trigger, but this has been dropped, probably as it is of dubious use. Airbrushes must maintain a certain minimum of air flow pressure to atomize paints, and the ability to adjust that with the trigger would allow the user to go below that limit which would cause the paint to sputter and spit. Hardly a benefit to any user.

Raymond from Grex says he has talked to thousands of airbrush users and has met only two that claim to adjust air flow with the trigger. An indication, IMHO, of the near impossibility of maintaining control of both air flow and paint flow with a trigger that describes an arc over the length of it's travel.

Bgrigg

keilau:

 

 

Sorry, I have to say that I am more confused than ever by some of the comments.

It was agreed that ALL airbrushes need both air flow and paint flow to work. Do we call all airbrush "dual action"?

No, we call them airbrushes.

On the Badger 200 series, the paint flow is on-off only. The push down trigger controls the air flow. Badger calls this a "single action" airbrush because, apparently, the on-off paint flow is a given and does not count as "an action". What Badger does is consistent with most other manufacturers.

No, this is incorrect. The trigger operates the air flow only, and IS the "single" action. The needle, which controls the paint flow is a separate setting with no link to the trigger. Since the adjustment of the needle is done prior to using it, it is not considered an action used in the operation of the airbrush, but is a setting.

The Grex pull trigger series, the air flow is on-off only. The trigger controls the paint flow only. Bill and you insist that this is dual action. I don't get it.

You summed it up pretty well, Bill, but just let me add a quick point to help clear things up.  Keilau, the 'double' of the double action airbrush is the ability to move the needle, thus being able to vary the amount of paint that is being sprayed, thereby adjusting the thickness of lines, etc.

By comparison in a single action brush, the needle's position is fixed - it is set before painting starts, so the only action you are controlling with the trigger is to start or stop the air flow. 

Bgrigg

Raymond from Grex says he has talked to thousands of airbrush users and has met only two that claim to adjust air flow with the trigger. An indication, IMHO, of the near impossibility of maintaining control of both air flow and paint flow with a trigger that describes an arc over the length of it's travel.

 

Yeah, I think you summed it up nicely, Bill.  I CAN control, to a certain degree, the air flow coming out of my nozzle, however, doing that with any precision AND controlling the amount of paint is vistually impossible.  To be honest, when I do feather the trigger to just get a little air, I typically just pull it back all the way to open the needle and let the paint flow at full volume - anything else is just too difficult (darn near impossible for me).  I'd say Raymond is right - there probably are only a few people who can do both with a great deal of precision...

Just to try to get some expert opinion, I started this thread on the Airbrush.com forum.  These people are real artists and make their living with an airbrush.  Don't be fooled by Airhead's hokey writing style.  He's an old hand at airbrushing and knows his stuff.  KathyL does beautiful work.

Don

Don,

Thanks for posting that thread on the airbrush forum, hopefully more people will chime in and we can get a real consensus.

Personally, I think they are fooling themselves that they are controlling air flow with incremental movements of the trigger. Dagger strokes are created by adjusting the position of the airbrush from the surface, not by altering needle position or air flow. Close up for thin, farther back for thick. This is how single action airbrushes can do dagger strokes the same as a dual action airbrush.

Bgrigg

Personally, I think they are fooling themselves that they are controlling air flow with incremental movements of the trigger.

If KathyL says she can do it, I believe her.  She has a variety of airbrushes and years of experience.  Note that she mentions one brand, the Olympos, and she says it is tricky.  It could be that the Olympos has a longer stroke like the Aztek.   I think what it boils down to is that if you think you can do it and it seems to help, fine.  Even if it's all in your head, what counts is the results.  If you try it and don't see any difference, then don't worry about it.  But, as Airhead wrote, "its always bin one of the Golden Rools that triger's alway depressed fully".  Airhead knows and teaches airbrushing.

Note: Airhead can write in perfectly good English when he wants to.

Don

bbrowniii

 

Keilau, the 'double' of the double action airbrush is the ability to move the needle, thus being able to vary the amount of paint that is being sprayed, thereby adjusting the thickness of lines, etc.

By comparison in a single action brush, the needle's position is fixed - it is set before painting starts, so the only action you are controlling with the trigger is to start or stop the air flow. 

 

"in a single action brush, ............. the only action you are controlling with the trigger is to start or stop the air flow."

If you say so. (But that's not what the Badger web site said.) I don't have a single action airbrush.

keilau

 

"in a single action brush, ............. the only action you are controlling with the trigger is to start or stop the air flow."

If you say so. (But that's not what the Badger web site said.) I don't have a single action airbrush.

 

Umm, yeah it does.  Seriously, do you read your own posts?  Here, from what you posted from the Badger website - basically the exact same thing I said, because I was paraphrasing the Badger WEBSITE!!!!

"We have many Badger users on this forum. I will use some direct quote from this page.

SINGLE ACTION refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls only the air flow. The amount of fluid is regulated by turning the needle adjustment screw. When the trigger is depressed, a pre-set amount of fluid is sprayed."

Once again, I ask, where is there confusion?  And, perhaps more important, why are you splitting hairs about this?

Keilau,

With the risk of being mean spirited, are you being deliberately obtuse?

From the Badger website on airbrush information:

SINGLE ACTION refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls only the air flow. The amount of fluid is regulated by turning the needle adjustment screw. When the trigger is depressed, a pre-set amount of fluid is sprayed

By which they mean on or off. I have a Badger 200, and a Badger 350 clone, and both require the needle to be pre-set, and the trigger operates whether the air is on, or off.

Bgrigg

Keilau,

With the risk of being mean spirited, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Sadly, when someone claims that the website does not say something that it does say, that THEY THEMSELVES posted, yes, I fear you have reached the logical conclusion, Bill....

Don Wheeler

 

Bgrigg:

 

Personally, I think they are fooling themselves that they are controlling air flow with incremental movements of the trigger.

 

 

If KathyL says she can do it, I believe her.  She has a variety of airbrushes and years of experience.  Note that she mentions one brand, the Olympos, and she says it is tricky.  It could be that the Olympos has a longer stroke like the Aztek.   I think what it boils down to is that if you think you can do it and it seems to help, fine.  Even if it's all in your head, what counts is the results.  If you try it and don't see any difference, then don't worry about it.  But, as Airhead wrote, "its always bin one of the Golden Rools that triger's alway depressed fully".  Airhead knows and teaches airbrushing.

Note: Airhead can write in perfectly good English when he wants to.

Don

Don, I believe that she believes it, and perhaps she can. I don't have any experience with Olympos airbrushes, but have quite a bit with Badger and some with Paasche, though on a limited level. Perhaps Olympos has a very long stroke.

I am a firm believer that Airheads Golden Rule is spot on.

Bgrigg

From the Badger website on airbrush information:

SINGLE ACTION refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls only the air flow. The amount of fluid is regulated by turning the needle adjustment screw. When the trigger is depressed, a pre-set amount of fluid is sprayed

By which they mean on or off. I have a Badger 200, and a Badger 350 clone, and both require the needle to be pre-set, and the trigger operates whether the air is on, or off.

Sorry that I did not read the Badger web site correctly.

To you, the word "control" means on or off and nothing in between. You also stated that that is how the Badger single action trigger (or all Badger triggers) was designed. I do not have a Badger 200. So, I cannot argue on this point. I just wish that a Badger person will confirm that they do this design on purpose.

To me, "control" means having a range of various amount of air flow. You push the trigger more and get more air and push it less for less air. I have an old Paasche H single action, external mix airbrush that I no longer use. The only control it has is the air flow by pushing in various stroke of the trigger. The trigger even has an adjustable (thumb screw) stop to limit how far you can push it. Those who has a 20 years old Paasche H will understand what I said. The H trigger is very convenient for this airbrush. Without it, it will be just like a spray can.

I am sorry that I mistakenly thought that all single action airbrush would work the same. But the Badger is different from the Paasche.

Keilau, I'm calling BS.

Earlier TODAY you said:

keilau

I don't have a single action airbrush.

And now we have this, in the same day:

keilau

I have an old Paasche H single action, external mix airbrush that I no longer use.

So you either don't or you do have a single action airbrush, but you cannot have both.

Here is a link to the Paasche H instruction book. Under Operating Instructions item 5 in the last sentence you will see "Press to open air valve." There are no further instructions on the operation of the air valve, as it has only the capability of on or off. Perhaps early versions did, but modern ones do not. However, according to this excerpt from the 1942 Paasche catalog (courtesy of the Airbrush Museum), I see no adjustment capability on the trigger, perhaps this version is too old to have this supposed control?

Furthermore, control has many meanings, and I am not limited to using control only to mean on or off and nothing in between. I (and Badger) are using the word control to mean the operation of the trigger, which controls whether air flows through the airbrush or not.

I suspect you are trolling to see what reactions you can get by arguing and splitting hairs. Begone Troll.

keilau

 

To me, "control" means having a range of various amount of air flow. You push the trigger more and get more air and push it less for less air. I have an old Paasche H single action, external mix airbrush that I no longer use. The only control it has is the air flow by pushing in various stroke of the trigger. The trigger even has an adjustable (thumb screw) stop to limit how far you can push it. Those who has a 20 years old Paasche H will understand what I said. The H trigger is very convenient for this airbrush. Without it, it will be just like a spray can.

I am sorry that I mistakenly thought that all single action airbrush would work the same. But the Badger is different from the Paasche.

Thanks for explaining that Keilau.  I learned something new.  I looked at the Paasche H manual and it shows the old style air valve assembly.  It calls the thumb screw a stipple adjust.  Stippling means to spray dots instead of a smooth even pattern.  The instructions say that for the new version your should reduce air pressure to produce a stipple.  I believe any airbrush will do this when there isn't enough air flow to fully atomize the paint.  Apparently, with the old version you could produce a stipple by limiting trigger travel, and the stipple adjust made this easy to do.  So the air valve was the variable type.  It looks like the new version isn't because the instructions just say to spray,  "press to open valve".

All of which goes to show that it's risky to make generalizations.  There can always be an exception.

Don

Bgrigg

Keilau, I'm calling BS.

Earlier TODAY you said:

keilau:

I don't have a single action airbrush.

And now we have this, in the same day:

keilau:

I have an old Paasche H single action, external mix airbrush that I no longer use.

So you either don't or you do have a single action airbrush, but you cannot have both.

Here is a link to the Paasche H instruction book. Under Operating Instructions item 5 in the last sentence you will see "Press to open air valve." There are no further instructions on the operation of the air valve, as it has only the capability of on or off. Perhaps early versions did, but modern ones do not. However, according to this excerpt from the 1942 Paasche catalog (courtesy of the Airbrush Museum), I see no adjustment capability on the trigger, perhaps this version is too old to have this supposed control?

Furthermore, control has many meanings, and I am not limited to using control only to mean on or off and nothing in between. I (and Badger) are using the word control to mean the operation of the trigger, which controls whether air flows through the airbrush or not.

I suspect you are trolling to see what reactions you can get by arguing and splitting hairs. Begone Troll.

 

Bgrigg

Keilau, I'm calling BS.

You and me both.  Amen.

Bgrigg wrote: Don, I believe that she believes it, and perhaps she can. I don't have any experience with Olympos airbrushes, but have quite a bit with Badger and some with Paasche, though on a limited level. Perhaps Olympos has a very long stroke.

I am a firm believer that Airheads Golden Rule is spot on.

I feel that I have to delurke for a while.;)

As a owner of several Olympos airbrushes, I can say that they don´t have longer strokes than most airbrushes. They are, IMHO, constructed as most airbrushes, to be analog when it comes to the air control. Sure, there might be people who can manipulate the valve to adjust the air, but that isn´t how they where constructed. These valves almost pop open when the air comes through. To keep them semi-open, and even in various degrees, while moving back in an arc to open for paint, isn´t what´s intended. Olympos Microns might be the second best choice if you want to try it, though, since their valves are extremly smooth in their action.

Best choice would probably be the Testor/Aztec, since their valve is of a completly different design. They really don´t have a valve in the traditional sence, it is more of a cut out design. There´s a bar that compresses the silicon airtube, and when you press the trigger, the bar lifts. This has been presented as a reason for having good, variable control of the air, using Testor/Aztecs. I don´t agree in full with this either, since you must again compensate for the arc travel when opening for paint. Sure, there might be a couple of people in the world who find themselves to have dexterity enough to have consistent results doing this, but for 99.9% of airbrushers worldwide, including most famous airbrush artists, it´s much easier to use either the regulator on the compressor, or a G-MAC-type regulator.

When it comes to the pistol trigger action airbrushes, I have several, and I can say that I have as good contol with them as I have with most other double action airbrushes. For fine detail traditional airbrushes might be better, because you get the feel of coming closer to the object with your fingers (more like a pen), but on the other hand, the pistol triggers have the benefit of better ergonomics. I get a lot of less ache in finger tendons and wrists using the pistol triggers.

Edit: Made a few spelling corrections.

Bgrigg

Keilau, I'm calling BS.

Earlier TODAY you said:

keilau:

I don't have a single action airbrush.

And now we have this, in the same day:

keilau:

I have an old Paasche H single action, external mix airbrush that I no longer use.

So you either don't or you do have a single action airbrush, but you cannot have both.

You know that I have 5 dual action, internal mix airbrushes from my many posts. Yes, I forgot that I still have this old Paasche H. You can call me BS. If this is not hair splitting on your part, I don't know what it is.

Bgrigg

Here is a link to the Paasche H instruction book. Under Operating Instructions item 5 in the last sentence you will see "Press to open air valve." There are no further instructions on the operation of the air valve, as it has only the capability of on or off. Perhaps early versions did, but modern ones do not. However, according to this excerpt from the 1942 Paasche catalog (courtesy of the Airbrush Museum), I see no adjustment capability on the trigger, perhaps this version is too old to have this supposed control?

Furthermore, control has many meanings, and I am not limited to using control only to mean on or off and nothing in between. I (and Badger) are using the word control to mean the operation of the trigger, which controls whether air flows through the airbrush or not.

Read Don Wheeler's post who explained to you how the Paasche works better than I do. (Don, thank you for the clarification.) For the newer airbrushes, the Iwata and H&S give me some control of the air flow. It allows me to paint a solid (trigger all the way down) or softer line (trigger back off some) of the same width. I don't paint freehand much. When I paint the long fault strip on warship, this control of air flow comes in handy. I still mask first, this allow me to paint the strip in several passes up close without too much overspray. That's why I like the Iwata better. This is how I expect a dual action to work. (Yes, you can achieve the same effect using the pressure control at the compressor. But not all hobby compressor has pressure adjustment.)

Bgrigg

I suspect you are trolling to see what reactions you can get by arguing and splitting hairs. Begone Troll.

This is really mean spirited. If you use your Badger airbrush differently, there is no reason to argue that others cannot have a different way of using their airbrushes of other brands.

I am really disappointed in your way of handling the truth. I will not respond any further.

denstore

Bgrigg wrote: Don, I believe that she believes it, and perhaps she can. I don't have any experience with Olympos airbrushes, but have quite a bit with Badger and some with Paasche, though on a limited level. Perhaps Olympos has a very long stroke.

I am a firm believer that Airheads Golden Rule is spot on.

 

I feel that I have to delurke for a while.;)

As a owner of several Olympos airbrushes, I can say that they don´t have longer strokes than most airbrushes. They are, IMHO, constructed as most airbrushes, to be analog when it comes to the air control. Sure, there might be people of can manipulate the valve to adjust the air, but that isn´t how they where constructed. These valves almost pop open when the air comes through. To keep them semi-open, and even in various degrees, while moving back in an arc to open for paint, isn´t what´s intended. Olympos Microns might be the second best choice if you want to try it, though, since their valves are extremly smooth in their action.

Best choice would probably be the Testor/Aztec, since their valve is of a completly different design. They really don´t have a valve in the traditional sence, it is more of a cut out design. There´s a bar that compresses the silicon airtube, and when you press the trigger, the bar lifts. This has been presented as a reason for having good, variable control of the air, using Testor/Aztecs. I don´t agree in full with this either, since you must again compensate for the arc travel when opening for paint. Sure, there might be a couple of people in the world who find themselves to hav dexterity enough to have consistent results doing this, but for 99.9% of airbrushers worldwide, including most famous airbrush artists, it´s much easier to use either the regulator on the compressor, or a G-MAC-type regulator.

When it comes to the pistol trigger action airbrushes, I have several, and I can say that I have as good contol with them as I have with most other double action airbrushes. For fine detail traditional airbrushes might be better, because you get the feel of coming closer to the object with your fingers (more like a pen), but on the other hand, the pistol triggers have the benefit of better ergonomics. I get a lot of less ache in finger tendons and wrists using the pistol triggers.

Denstore,

Thank you for your response, much better to have people who actually use the products explain their use in detail than speculation. I completely agree that manipulating the air with the trigger would be difficult, especially given the travel arc of the trigger.

The Paasche H airbrush I have used (a friend's who was letting me test it's use) certainly didn't seem capable of varying the air flow with the trigger. It seems that at one point Paasche offered an air valve that did allow some modulation, but early models didn't, and present day models don't, so perhaps it was an experiment that didn't catch on. Deliberately causing the airbrush to spit to create a stipple effect certainly has no merit for my use!

The trigger grips is more ergonomic, indeed paint guns used in industrial applications are the same design. I have been experimenting with a different grip on my airbrushes similar to the one Brett Green uses with his Azteks on the Testors Scale Workshop video series, in that I hold it like a knife and use my thumb on the trigger. I'm still quite clunky with it, and revert to the "pen" grip for detail, and will probably never really switch over as I think it works better for the chunky body style the Aztek has, and I use thinner bodied airbrushes. But it does give my index finger a rest!

Keilau,

How convenient it is for you to "forget" you not only have a single action airbrush, but it is precisely the kind that has an air valve that allows modulation of air. Amazing!

I am not the one splitting hairs. I have been as clear and as precise as I can be in expressing myself. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated an ability to put words in my mouth (control is on/off and nothing in between), and have conveniently misconstrued the differences between single and dual action airbrushes, and now you are informing me that I use my Badger airbrushes differently than other users!

I will remind you that you sent me an essay on your thoughts on airbrushes. Let me quote some key sections that are pertinent to this discussion:

I have 5 airbrushes. I have the Iwata Eclipse HP-CS, a Badger 105 Patriot, a Paasche H, a Powercat 203 (Iwata C+ knockoff) and a Powcat (sic) 800 (Badger 155 knockoff). I use only the Iwata and the Badger regularly for modeling...

The Iwata HP-CS is my primary airbrush for most modeling works. Iwata Eclipse HP-CS trigger have very short vertical travel. It is almost like an on-and-off only.

I started with a Paasche H 20+ years ago. It did what I needed. Nice finish without brush marks and covering larger area (1:16 scale tank) relatively fast. I found changing color, upkeeping and cleaning the airbrush a drag. I used it very sparsely and stayed with brush or rattle can most of the time. I still have the Paashce (sic) H in very good condition, but I soldemly (sic) touch it. I changed my view on airbrushing when I got the Iwata a year ago.

Now I know that you have since added an H&S to your stable bringing your total up to six airbrushes, five of which are dual action, but you could remember a detail like ownership of a single action Paasche H in mid February, but not two months later? I find that convenient.

I also find it convenient that you can modulate air with your Iwata, even though you had early noted it's short travel, and how it was "like an on-and-off only."

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like my "way of handling the truth", it is still the truth.

Bgrigg

The trigger grips is more ergonomic, indeed paint guns used in industrial applications are the same design. I have been experimenting with a different grip on my airbrushes similar to the one Brett Green uses with his Azteks on the Testors Scale Workshop video series, in that I hold it like a knife and use my thumb on the trigger. I'm still quite clunky with it, and revert to the "pen" grip for detail, and will probably never really switch over as I think it works better for the chunky body style the Aztek has, and I use thinner bodied airbrushes. But it does give my index finger a rest!

Have you tried the Grex airbrush grip? For people who have a need for a larger grip, it is very good. Feels a bit strange at first, but it is quite comfortable. I have been getting good response on the one I got for myself, when I´ve demostrated it. It fits many airbrushes, not only Grex, even if that is the brand I sell in my shop.

No, I haven't. I have used industrial airguns, and of course gardening nozzles when watering, so I am convinced they would be more comfortable. If I was to purchase another airbrush I would consider a trigger style, but as I already have a collection that I don't use, that is an unlikely event!

I did notice that Grex makes an accessory pistol grip handle for "ordinary" airbrushes, but confess I am at a loss as how they would be more ergonomic as you still have to reach up with the index finger. One would have to try it, but I see from the Grex site that Badger isn't listed, and that Paasche, Vega and Omni don't work due to the larger body size.

It´s mostly making the grip bigger. For people that get strained tendons in the fingers using airbrushes, it´s usually because they cramp when holding on to a small and slick airbrush. It also changes the position in the hand a bit.

If you do change your mind, go with the Tritium series. The XT is a great airbrush as well, but the TG and TS are newer designs. A bit more expensive, but they are worth it.

For those interested, here's some reviews of Grex's pistol grip airbrushes

http://www.masterclassmodels.com/review12.html

http://www.modelretailer.com/en/Product%20News/2010/03/GenesisXT%20airbrush%20and%20compressor%20kit%20from%20Grex.aspx

Here's one of just the adapter grip

http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/tools/grex/tool_grex_ggs1.shtml

waikong

For those interested, here's some reviews of Grex's pistol grip airbrushes

http://www.masterclassmodels.com/review12.html 

 

Nice interview. I only would like to say that the reviewer are wrong in one point. It isn´t based on any proven Iwata design. The trigger actions has been along a lot earlier than when Iwata started to carry them in their line. Iwata makes great airbrushes, but they are neither the only (or the most innovative) airbrush company from Japan.

Bgrigg

Keilau,

How convenient it is for you to "forget" you not only have a single action airbrush, but it is precisely the kind that has an air valve that allows modulation of air. Amazing!

I am not the one splitting hairs. I have been as clear and as precise as I can be in expressing myself. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated an ability to put words in my mouth (control is on/off and nothing in between), and have conveniently misconstrued the differences between single and dual action airbrushes, and now you are informing me that I use my Badger airbrushes differently than other users!

......

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like my "way of handling the truth", it is still the truth.

Yeah, there is definately something shady going on here with you Keilau.  I mean, I looked back through the first dozen or so pages of your posts and you are all over the place talking about airbrushes.  You talk about their technical merits, their strenghts and weaknesses, the attributes of brushes from different companies, yet you expect us to accept that you don't grasp the difference between a single and a double action airbrush?  C'mon, man, what are you really up to?

At 1st I was going say how could i have missed tis thread.  Now having gone through it I am glad did did.

So Waikong, to get back to your original question... there was one... wasn't there?  The control is utterly fantastic.   Whether you wanna think your a playing with the air flow or not... don't care.  The key to this AB is the trigger grip.  As stated, Yes my Jagdtiger was the 1st really use of the AB.  That camo was laid down in 1 paint session.  Including the going back to touch up accidental over sprays and the like.  Had I done that with my Badger I would have had to stop so many time because I get horrific writers cramp during long sessions.  Start to finish it was so comfortable.

The other thing that is essential is micro air control valve with quick connects.  This give precise... Oh, lets through a a log on the fire...constant... air flow control.  The hose is set up with quick connect so the Badger and the Grex swap out instantly.

I was playing around nd have gotten a spray that would work doing free hand mottle on a 144th German fighter.

Marc, thanks for your input, so I'm seriously looking at buying their combo package with the gun and compressor, comes with the MAC valve too.  Yeah, I'm not sure how this thread got so heated so fast. 

Marc, adjusting air flow with a valve isn't a log on the fire, it's insisting that it's a feature of double action airbrush triggers that does it. I said a few pages back that the MAC valve or regulator is the way to adjust for air flow.

I have my regulator mounted inside the spray booth and can tweak air easily and do so on a fairly constant basis.

Bgrigg

I have my regulator mounted inside the spray booth and can tweak air easily and do so on a fairly constant basis.

Yeah, that's what I do too.  The person who taught me the basics of airbrushing suggested it, and being able to adjust airflow at the booth has made a world of difference for me.  Too many years of contact sports, martial arts, and the military have left me a bit stiffer in the fingers and wrists than I should be for my age (39), so big adjustment  knobs are my friend.

Also, in that review of the Grex grip, it is mentioned it should work with similarly shaped Badger airbrushes.  As I primarily use a 100LG, I might have to shell out the $25 and give one a try.  Anything for less hand fatigue!

Chris

I missed that it fit Badgers, the Grex website doesn't list Badgers at all, and specifically mentions Omni and Vega airbrushes won't work with the grip. Hmmm, things to consider!

The review mentioned 'should fit similarly engineered...' as the Iwata the reviewer was using.  A 100LG, and probably a Velocity or Patriot may/should fit.  Perhaps I should email Grex myself.

Your are right Bill.  I was referring to the word "constant" as in not variable during usage.

With this little valve I keep my compressor more or less at full on.

Check this link for your Badger connection.

http://www.grexusa.com/grexairbrush/products.php5?id=G-MAC.B

If oyu have the valve then all you need to the adaptor atthe bottom of this page

http://www.grexusa.com/grexairbrush/prod_type.php5?prod_type=Quick Connects

EDIT: not sure whythe word Connects is part of the hyperlink.  It is part of the URL

bbrowniii

Bgrigg:

Keilau,

How convenient it is for you to "forget" you not only have a single action airbrush, but it is precisely the kind that has an air valve that allows modulation of air. Amazing!

I am not the one splitting hairs. I have been as clear and as precise as I can be in expressing myself. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated an ability to put words in my mouth (control is on/off and nothing in between), and have conveniently misconstrued the differences between single and dual action airbrushes, and now you are informing me that I use my Badger airbrushes differently than other users!

......

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like my "way of handling the truth", it is still the truth.

 

Yeah, there is definately something shady going on here with you Keilau.  I mean, I looked back through the first dozen or so pages of your posts and you are all over the place talking about airbrushes.  You talk about their technical merits, their strenghts and weaknesses, the attributes of brushes from different companies, yet you expect us to accept that you don't grasp the difference between a single and a double action airbrush?  C'mon, man, what are you really up to?

Do you have to resort to personal attack??

waikong

For those interested, here's some reviews of Grex's pistol grip airbrushes

http://www.masterclassmodels.com/review12.html 

Waikong, there is no question that the reviewer likes his Grex a lot. I am very curious about what he meant when he said, "The unique trigger design offers a great compromise between double action and single action brushes".

When you get your Grex, let us know what difference do you notice. Gerald Voigt likes it a lot when switching from the Iwata to this Grex. Other potential buyer may ask the same question that you originally asked.

Has anyone have experiences with them? How does the pistal style work as a double action brush, as there's only one single motion - pulling back vs the tradtional trigger that allows me to control air (down) and paint (back) separately. I'm not sure how that works in a pistol grip, sures looks more comfortable though.

I will like to hear your opinion on the MAC valve and how you may use it in modeling too. Some on this forum had said that it was completely useless and other embrace as one of the best innovation.

Oh, the next airbrush I get, it will definitely have some sort of MAC valve. My aztek 470 has the equivalent, a dial that sets it to dual action or single action or anything in between which a MAC valve basically does - limits the amount of paint that comes out when the trigger is fully engaged.

I find that its useful as its much easier to get a consistent amount of paint out with such a feature.  It doesn't allow you to do anything more than a dual-action brush, rather it rachets down the skills required for certain jobs.

Same with this whole issue regarding varying airlfow with the trigger. There's nothing that this feature has that can't be done with varying the air pressure directly - either with a MAC valve or a regulator. Rather it just makes certain things easier. Believe me, I don't claim to be an airbrush artist of any sort, I consider mysel an airbrush beginner. 

However, I do  use this feature to quickly dry paint with a gentle stream of air so I can judge the sheen of the color better, or I'll use it to create a fine mist coat. Sure, I can do the same thing by varying the amount of paint, or turning down the pressure - no argument from me there. It just so happens that's how I learned to do certain things with the features of my airbrush. Just like the way Brett Green from Hyperscale holds his Aztek 'funny', it works for him and I'm not going to say he needs to hold it the 'standard' way.

waikong

I find that its useful as its much easier to get a consistent amount of paint out with such a feature.  It doesn't allow you to do anything more than a dual-action brush, rather it rachets down the skills required for certain jobs.

Believe me, I don't claim to be an airbrush artist of any sort, I consider mysel an airbrush beginner. 

It just so happens that's how I learned to do certain things with the features of my airbrush. Just like the way Brett Green from Hyperscale holds his Aztek 'funny', it works for him and I'm not going to say he needs to hold it the 'standard' way.

Looking at the several airbrush articles in FSM over the last years, skillful modelers use airbrush from simple to very high end. I do agree with you that MAC and needle stop makes life easier for the average modelers. Hearing that from you is refreshing.

After tired of the Paasche H, I got an Aztek 470 after watching many Brett Green videos. I quickly found out that I cannot do what Brett does and did not like the Aztek control. I switch to an Iwata HP-CS and like it a lot.

Interesting thread, I have noticed my inbox full of posts on it, but haven't had a chance to post so far.

Anyway, for what it's worth The H&S Infinity has "air" trigger up/down movement of approx. 1.0 > 1.75mm available, dependent on how the tension on the air valve below the trigger is adjusted. I agree that the airflow can be controlled, but only to a fashion (how much control can you get from about 1.5mm of movement).

I have tried to use this method of control in the past, but the problem I have had when doing so is that the control is very limited, difficult to achieve & not constantly repeatable. To me it seems like a side effect of the way the air valve operates, as opposed to being a "control feature".

In my early days with this brush, in an effort to get this type of  "air control" working properly, I stripped the air valve, polished it internally, lubed it, tried different springs......................., but all to no avail - I now use my proper air control, the one bolted onto my compressor.

From what the news suggests, there has been an "air control" issue right across Europe - apparently the Icelander's, first the bank's & now the airspace!

Milairjunkie

Interesting thread, I have noticed my inbox full of posts on it, but haven't had a chance to post so far.

Anyway, for what it's worth The H&S Infinity has "air" trigger up/down movement of approx. 1.0 > 1.75mm available, dependent on how the tension on the air valve below the trigger is adjusted. I agree that the airflow can be controlled, but only to a fashion (how much control can you get from about 1.5mm of movement).

I have tried to use this method of control in the past, but the problem I have had when doing so is that the control is very limited, difficult to achieve & not constantly repeatable. To me it seems like a side effect of the way the air valve operates, as opposed to being a "control feature".

I have an Iwata Eclipse and found that I can have a few steps of air flow control. And you are right that it is hardly repeatable and not a practical technique. I found that it has some value in painting long narrow strips (masked) and wonder what other more advanced modeler think of it. I have a cheap knock-off that has a MAC. The MAC gives large range of air flow control right at the airbrush. Is it off any value to a modeler?

I just got a H&S Evolution Silverline recently. Have not use it much yet. The up and down trigger feel is very similar to the Iwata.

From all account, the Grex pull trigger will be air flow on-off only.

keilau

 

Yeah, there is definately something shady going on here with you Keilau.  I mean, I looked back through the first dozen or so pages of your posts and you are all over the place talking about airbrushes.  You talk about their technical merits, their strenghts and weaknesses, the attributes of brushes from different companies, yet you expect us to accept that you don't grasp the difference between a single and a double action airbrush?  C'mon, man, what are you really up to?

 

Do you have to resort to personal attack??

Personal attack?  Hardly.  I was simply asking an honest question regarding your motivations in persisting in the argument you were having.  However, since the thread has moved into more informative territory, I am happy to drop that line of inquiry...

Sorry, but just to throw in my small $0.02 into this mix. With my Aztec airbrush, by varying the pressure on the trigger (how far down I press on it, NOT how far back I pull) I can vary the amount of air being released (even though my compressor is set to a static pressure measure). By pulling back on the trigger, I control the amount of paint. I've done this literally for years...

I have only once used my Peak C-5 and I honestly cannot recall if I can perform this same action, but from just playing around with it a bit right now, I would have to say 'no', or certainly not with the degree of control that I get out of the Aztec.

bbrowniii

 

Bgrigg:

 

Keilau,

How convenient it is for you to "forget" you not only have a single action airbrush, but it is precisely the kind that has an air valve that allows modulation of air. Amazing!

I am not the one splitting hairs. I have been as clear and as precise as I can be in expressing myself. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated an ability to put words in my mouth (control is on/off and nothing in between), and have conveniently misconstrued the differences between single and dual action airbrushes, and now you are informing me that I use my Badger airbrushes differently than other users!

......

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like my "way of handling the truth", it is still the truth.

 

 

Yeah, there is definately something shady going on here with you Keilau.  I mean, I looked back through the first dozen or so pages of your posts and you are all over the place talking about airbrushes.  You talk about their technical merits, their strenghts and weaknesses, the attributes of brushes from different companies, yet you expect us to accept that you don't grasp the difference between a single and a double action airbrush?  C'mon, man, what are you really up to?

Not trying to stir this pot any further than it already is, but it is a personal attack, and pretty much a "yeah, me too" one, after BGrigg posted the obtuse commentary. Not agreeing or disagreeing, but lets just get back on topic. Reading this thread has definitely been very informative, at least in understanding of some basic principles of this tool.

zokissima

Not trying to stir this pot any further than it already is, but it is a personal attack, and pretty much a "yeah, me too" one, after BGrigg posted the obtuse commentary. Not agreeing or disagreeing, but lets just get back on topic. Reading this thread has definitely been very informative, at least in understanding of some basic principles of this tool.

Well, that's two people who have seen what I said as a personal attack.  In my last post, I had said I would move on, but apparently, before I can an apology is in order. 

Keilau, if you took my comments as a personal attack, I apologize.  Mea Culpa.

zokissma, since I use the Aztek also, I have the same experiene as you. Since I have not really used any other dual action airbrush, I had assume they all worked the same. Evidently they do not and makes the user learn different skills sets.

waikong

zokissma, since I use the Aztek also, I have the same experiene as you. Since I have not really used any other dual action airbrush, I had assume they all worked the same. Evidently they do not and makes the user learn different skills sets.

No, I do not think a different skillset is required really; the principles behind the two are the same. To be completely honest, I love my Aztec, but with it varying both air and paint amount, I actually find it a bit more fickle, and the Peak, which functions pretty much as BGrigg and others have described dual-action airbrushes to have, I find that I actually have a far greater degree of usability, and a 'feeling' of greater control.

bbrowniii

 

zokissima:

 

 

 

Not trying to stir this pot any further than it already is, but it is a personal attack, and pretty much a "yeah, me too" one, after BGrigg posted the obtuse commentary. Not agreeing or disagreeing, but lets just get back on topic. Reading this thread has definitely been very informative, at least in understanding of some basic principles of this tool.

 

 

Well, that's two people who have seen what I said as a personal attack.  In my last post, I had said I would move on, but apparently, before I can an apology is in order. 

Keilau, if you took my comments as a personal attack, I apologize.  Mea Culpa.

In all honesty buddy, I too often play with semantics, and just act as devils' advocate. I didn't mean any harm by my post, and hope none was perceived.

zokissima

waikong:

zokissma, since I use the Aztek also, I have the same experiene as you. Since I have not really used any other dual action airbrush, I had assume they all worked the same. Evidently they do not and makes the user learn different skills sets.

 

No, I do not think a different skillset is required really; the principles behind the two are the same. To be completely honest, I love my Aztec, but with it varying both air and paint amount, I actually find it a bit more fickle, and the Peak, which functions pretty much as BGrigg and others have described dual-action airbrushes to have, I find that I actually have a far greater degree of usability, and a 'feeling' of greater control.

Zokissma

Perhaps I have become a bit confused as this discussion has evolved.  Is it your opinion that the Aztek is engineered to intentionally give you 'control' over the volume of air at the trigger, or is it simply a consequence of the trigger pull (technically a push in this case, I think?)? 

I ask because, as I said, I get some slight 'control' with my Badger, but I certainly don't think it was intended to be that way - I think it is simply the result of the distance I have to press the trigger to go from 'off' to full 'on'.

zokissima

 

In all honesty buddy, I too often play with semantics, and just act as devils' advocate. I didn't mean any harm by my post, and hope none was perceived.

Me?  No.  I was being legitimate (for once ) that if two people admitted to seeing what I said as a personal attack, then I owed Keilau an apology.  I didn't take any offense at your post and didn't perceive anything negative in it.

zokissima

No, I do not think a different skillset is required really; the principles behind the two are the same. To be completely honest, I love my Aztec, but with it varying both air and paint amount, I actually find it a bit more fickle, and the Peak, which functions pretty much as BGrigg and others have described dual-action airbrushes to have, I find that I actually have a far greater degree of usability, and a 'feeling' of greater control.

Emphasis mine.

This is why I keep saying this ability has dubious merit.

Zoran, you have a greater degree of usability and feeling of control, because you are using the airbrush as it is intended, which provides the maximum level of control. You feel in control, because you are in control.

Attempting to hold a trigger in a certain position for air, while laterally moving the trigger position for paint makes airbrushing so much more difficult that I'm shocked so many people even want to try to do it.

The vast majority of modern airbrushes expect the user to hold the air full on and adjust the pressure with a regulator of some kind, and MAC valves are nothing other than a form of regulator. Trigger on, pull back for paint. Don't like the results? Trigger off, raise or lower the pressure. Trigger on, pull back for paint. Repeat as necessary.

I'm sure some people can "vary" the air flow with a dual action trigger, but it's not designed to modulate air flow. I can make an light switch vary the flow of electricity by holding it so that is doesn't make good contact, and look, the lights kinda sorta dim, but that's not how light switches are supposed to work. They're supposed to be on or off. Turn on for light and off for dark. Want the lighting somewhere in between? Buy a dimmer switch, which is an electrical analog for pressure regulators.

I suspect that Azteks do have this "ability" as so many of them are mated to the Testors Blue Mini abomination, which doesn't come with a regulator, and therefore the user has 'some' measure of controlling the air flow. They offer a pressure valve and regulator as two separate items and want the Earth for them! Unbelievably Testors has all three items at the full MSRP of $285.97!

Bgrigg

zokissima:

No, I do not think a different skillset is required really; the principles behind the two are the same. To be completely honest, I love my Aztec, but with it varying both air and paint amount, I actually find it a bit more fickle, and the Peak, which functions pretty much as BGrigg and others have described dual-action airbrushes to have, I find that I actually have a far greater degree of usability, and a 'feeling' of greater control.

Emphasis mine.

This is why I keep saying this ability has dubious merit.

Zoran, you have a greater degree of usability and feeling of control, because you are using the airbrush as it is intended, which provides the maximum level of control. You feel in control, because you are in control.

Attempting to hold a trigger in a certain position for air, while laterally moving the trigger position for paint makes airbrushing so much more difficult that I'm shocked so many people even want to try to do it.

The vast majority of modern airbrushes expect the user to hold the air full on and adjust the pressure with a regulator of some kind, and MAC valves are nothing other than a form of regulator. Trigger on, pull back for paint. Don't like the results? Trigger off, raise or lower the pressure. Trigger on, pull back for paint. Repeat as necessary.

I'm sure some people can "vary" the air flow with a dual action trigger, but it's not designed to modulate air flow. I can make an light switch vary the flow of electricity by holding it so that is doesn't make good contact, and look, the lights kinda sorta dim, but that's not how light switches are supposed to work. They're supposed to be on or off. Turn on for light and off for dark. Want the lighting somewhere in between? Buy a dimmer switch, which is an electrical analog for pressure regulators.

I suspect that Azteks do have this "ability" as so many of them are mated to the Testors Blue Mini abomination, which doesn't come with a regulator, and therefore the user has 'some' measure of controlling the air flow. They offer a pressure valve and regulator as two separate items and want the Earth for them! Unbelievably Testors has all three items at the full MSRP of $285.97!

 

Oh Gawd

I refuse to listen or argue with a guy who can not show his own work

sorry   A  know it all and do nothing it all don't fly wiith me.   

Faust,

You're not sorry at all. All you do is bounce around this forum and make caustic remarks. You don't want to "listen" to me then don't.

Bgrigg

Faust,

You're not sorry at all. All you do is bounce around this forum and make caustic remarks. You don't want to "listen" to me then don't.

Show us what ya got   walk the walk and quit the talk

Locked thread in 4....3....2....1.............................................

Sad thing is he's been like this with me since he got here. Usually I ignore his stupid remarks. And look he's acting up just before Matt and Aaron are going away for the weekend.

When they switched over to the new forum, we lost our troll emoticon, so I'll pull this one out of my grab bag.

Bgrigg

Keilau,

How convenient it is for you to "forget" you not only have a single action airbrush, but it is precisely the kind that has an air valve that allows modulation of air. Amazing!

I am not the one splitting hairs. I have been as clear and as precise as I can be in expressing myself. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated an ability to put words in my mouth (control is on/off and nothing in between), and have conveniently misconstrued the differences between single and dual action airbrushes, and now you are informing me that I use my Badger airbrushes differently than other users!

I will remind you that you sent me an essay on your thoughts on airbrushes. Let me quote some key sections that are pertinent to this discussion:

I have 5 airbrushes. I have the Iwata Eclipse HP-CS, a Badger 105 Patriot, a Paasche H, a Powercat 203 (Iwata C+ knockoff) and a Powcat (sic) 800 (Badger 155 knockoff). I use only the Iwata and the Badger regularly for modeling...

The Iwata HP-CS is my primary airbrush for most modeling works. Iwata Eclipse HP-CS trigger have very short vertical travel. It is almost like an on-and-off only.

I started with a Paasche H 20+ years ago. It did what I needed. Nice finish without brush marks and covering larger area (1:16 scale tank) relatively fast. I found changing color, upkeeping and cleaning the airbrush a drag. I used it very sparsely and stayed with brush or rattle can most of the time. I still have the Paashce (sic) H in very good condition, but I soldemly (sic) touch it. I changed my view on airbrushing when I got the Iwata a year ago.

Now I know that you have since added an H&S to your stable bringing your total up to six airbrushes, five of which are dual action, but you could remember a detail like ownership of a single action Paasche H in mid February, but not two months later? I find that convenient.

I also find it convenient that you can modulate air with your Iwata, even though you had early noted it's short travel, and how it was "like an on-and-off only."

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like my "way of handling the truth", it is still the truth.

Bgrigg

Keilau,

How convenient it is for you to "forget" you not only have a single action airbrush, but it is precisely the kind that has an air valve that allows modulation of air. Amazing!

I am not the one splitting hairs. I have been as clear and as precise as I can be in expressing myself. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated an ability to put words in my mouth (control is on/off and nothing in between), and have conveniently misconstrued the differences between single and dual action airbrushes, and now you are informing me that I use my Badger airbrushes differently than other users!

I will remind you that you sent me an essay on your thoughts on airbrushes. Let me quote some key sections that are pertinent to this discussion:

I have 5 airbrushes. I have the Iwata Eclipse HP-CS, a Badger 105 Patriot, a Paasche H, a Powercat 203 (Iwata C+ knockoff) and a Powcat (sic) 800 (Badger 155 knockoff). I use only the Iwata and the Badger regularly for modeling...

The Iwata HP-CS is my primary airbrush for most modeling works. Iwata Eclipse HP-CS trigger have very short vertical travel. It is almost like an on-and-off only.

I started with a Paasche H 20+ years ago. It did what I needed. Nice finish without brush marks and covering larger area (1:16 scale tank) relatively fast. I found changing color, upkeeping and cleaning the airbrush a drag. I used it very sparsely and stayed with brush or rattle can most of the time. I still have the Paashce (sic) H in very good condition, but I soldemly (sic) touch it. I changed my view on airbrushing when I got the Iwata a year ago.

Now I know that you have since added an H&S to your stable bringing your total up to six airbrushes, five of which are dual action, but you could remember a detail like ownership of a single action Paasche H in mid February, but not two months later? I find that convenient.

I also find it convenient that you can modulate air with your Iwata, even though you had early noted it's short travel, and how it was "like an on-and-off only."

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like my "way of handling the truth", it is still the truth.

I started with a Paasche H 20+ years ago  I started with a Paasche H 20+ years ago I started with a Paasche H 20+ years ago

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like my "way of handling the truth", it is still the truth

zokissima

waikong:

zokissma, since I use the Aztek also, I have the same experiene as you. Since I have not really used any other dual action airbrush, I had assume they all worked the same. Evidently they do not and makes the user learn different skills sets.

 

No, I do not think a different skillset is required really; the principles behind the two are the same. To be completely honest, I love my Aztec, but with it varying both air and paint amount, I actually find it a bit more fickle, and the Peak, which functions pretty much as BGrigg and others have described dual-action airbrushes to have, I find that I actually have a far greater degree of usability, and a 'feeling' of greater control.

zokissma, interesting observation.

I found that Iwata and H&S have much more air flow adjustment control compared to the Badger Patriot. (I am not saying what is good or bad. They are definitely quite different.) But I never learned how to use air flow control while painting. In a recent review of the Paasche Talon airbrush, James Bella made this observation:

Right off the bat I noticed a longer downstroke for air then my other brushes, fine atomization and predictable control.

Not sure what other airbrush he referred to. My Iwata and H&S have about 1/8" stroke. I would like to hear from a Talon owner to let us know how long a stroke is that AB.

keilau

zokissma, interesting observation.

I found that Iwata and H&S have much more air flow adjustment control compared to the Badger Patriot. (I am not saying what is good or bad. They are definitely quite different.) But I never learned how to use air flow control while painting. In a recent review of the Paasche Talon airbrush, James Bella made this observation:

Right off the bat I noticed a longer downstroke for air then my other brushes, fine atomization and predictable control.

Not sure what other airbrush he referred to. My Iwata and H&S have about 1/8" stroke. I would like to hear from a Talon owner to let us know how long a stroke is that AB.

I´m not sure he´s talking about the control of the air. He simply says that it has a long stroke, that it atomizes good, and that he feel that the airbrush has good control.

Look again, Faust. I'm quoting Keilau, who is stating he started 20 years ago. Not me.

Get your facts straight. It only makes you look even more foolish than normal.

denstore

 

keilau:

 

zokissma, interesting observation.

I found that Iwata and H&S have much more air flow adjustment control compared to the Badger Patriot. (I am not saying what is good or bad. They are definitely quite different.) But I never learned how to use air flow control while painting. In a recent review of the Paasche Talon airbrush, James Bella made this observation:

Right off the bat I noticed a longer downstroke for air then my other brushes, fine atomization and predictable control.

Not sure what other airbrush he referred to. My Iwata and H&S have about 1/8" stroke. I would like to hear from a Talon owner to let us know how long a stroke is that AB.

 

 

I´m not sure he´s talking about the control of the air. He simply says that it has a long stroke, that it atomizes good, and that he feel that the airbrush has good control.

Dan,

"a longer downstroke for air" is a direct quote. You can go to the link and ask James Bella directly what he meant by that.

Dr. Faust

 

Bgrigg:

 

Faust,

You're not sorry at all. All you do is bounce around this forum and make caustic remarks. You don't want to "listen" to me then don't.

 

 

Show us what ya got   walk the walk and quit the talk

Dude, seriously, what's with the threadcrapping? We're discussing airbrushes here....Are you just trying to get a rise out of someone or what? What I'm asking here is what is your purpose in this thread? Do you have one? And is it relevant to the topic of discussion? If not....

bbrowniii

 

 

 

Zokissma

Perhaps I have become a bit confused as this discussion has evolved.  Is it your opinion that the Aztek is engineered to intentionally give you 'control' over the volume of air at the trigger, or is it simply a consequence of the trigger pull (technically a push in this case, I think?)? 

I ask because, as I said, I get some slight 'control' with my Badger, but I certainly don't think it was intended to be that way - I think it is simply the result of the distance I have to press the trigger to go from 'off' to full 'on'.

Heh, don't get me wrong, as I've said I've used my Aztec, oh for almost 8 years now, and I do love it, but when compared to the Peak and Badger brushes, I don't really know if the term 'engineered' to do anything really applies

The brush has an unusual amount of travel in the up/down motion of the trigger (as opposed to back/forth), so arguably it can be said that it was meant to do this, and it is helpful when used with a low-end compressor with no pressure regulator.

However; I don't know nor can I speculate as to whether this is done intentionally or not. Simply from a quality perspective, the brush just does not compare to the others. And as far as results are concerned it does lend itself more to painting by 'feel' rather than by consistency and repeatability. Thus, factors of paint viscosity, temperature, all of that will affect what you spray down; as opposed to my Peak where I eliminate one factor; varying pressure, by using a regulator, thus giving me more consistent results. Take from that what you will, its not a conclusive answer I know, and I'd probably lean towards this being just a by-product of the simpler Aztec design rather than a 'feature'.

keilau

denstore:

 Dan,

"a longer downstroke for air" is a direct quote. You can go to the link and ask James Bella directly what he meant by that.

Yes, I know, but that doesn´t mean that he´s saying that the second part of the clause, when he mentions atomization and control, has anything to do with the long stroke. He might be saying that it has a longer downstroke than his other airbrushes, and that it atomizes good, and it has good control. He´s not saying that the atomizing and control (of the air) comes because of the long downward stroke. That might be what he want to say, even if it isn´t totally clear. It might be splitting hairs, but as usual, I´m sceptical to statements of controling the airflow with the trigger of modern airbrushes. The gain is extremly small, especially compared to how difficult mastering such a technique would be.

As you can see from the diagram it is a double action.... pull through trigger.  When used properly....air on and slight pull beyond the "detent" or some call a "hard spot" you have a precise control over the flow of liquid that is then atomized internally and thrust through the fluid nozzle.  If some say they can control the air flow on a top down double action trigger.... then why has Iwata introduced the air flow valve on there quick disconnect the same as the GREX quick connect w/air flow valve that was introduced many months prior?  There is a need n some applications to reduce pressure ie. stenciling and make -up, but is done by an external valve not the trigger!!!

Bgrigg

Get your facts straight. It only makes you look even more foolish than normal.

Is that possible Bill? This guy is a real piece of work. 

Hey Faust, let's see what you can do? Get a T-shirt and airbrush your best and I will do the same!

JerC, if you read through all the posts, you will see that most Double Action brushes is as you described, but there are a few where there is much more up/down travel to the trigger that allows control of air. I'm not saying that's the way to go or which is better, just that the differences do exist. Something that I didn't know (and apparently many others) before this thread.

I have to agree with Bgrigg here, I was at the AMPS show in Auburn In. and tried out the Grex airbrush. It's a really nice airbrush and I asked the rep. directly if you could regulate the airflow with the trigger. She said no, you regulate the amount of paint but the first part of the trigger pull is for air, then you start to regulate the amount of paint with the rest of the pull. If you want to regulate the air use your pressure gauge on your compressor. All in all it's a pretty nice tool to have.

Let me preface my post by saying I have not read much of this thread, and I am short on time to elaborate, but a friend asked for my two cents on this subject so I'm giving it.

Theoretically the up and down movement of the trigger can moderate airflow dependant on the restriction the form and travel of the relevant trigger assembly components cause or allow on the air flow - and this will vary from airbrush to airbrush, but is usually consistent within a brand.  However, as an airbrush manufacture and having 30 plus years working with all levels of user skill it is difficult to recommend the up and down movement of the trigger as the means to moderate airflow.  This method of moderation is difficult as it is difficult to maintain the up/down depression as you slide the trigger back and forth to adjust your paint volume.  I'm not saying it can't be done!  I'm just saying for most folks it is isn't easy to perfect this means of air flow regulation.  I would be more apt to recommend the usage of a good regulator on your air source or one of the new PAC (Badger) or MAC (Iwata) valves that can be put on your airbrush right at the valve stem where the air hose attaches.  Anyhow, I'm off to Wonderfest, so I don't have time to write more, although I probably could - but to summarize - yes, theoretically you can adjust air pressure with the up and down movement of the trigger, but it is not the best or easiest way to moderate airflow on an airbrush.

Take air,

ken

Mark 10:27

Badger Air-Brush Co. - American Made Airbrush Excellence!

www.badgerairbrush.com

kenbadger

Theoretically the up and down movement of the trigger can moderate airflow dependant on the restriction the form and travel of the relevant trigger assembly components cause or allow on the air flow - and this will vary from airbrush to airbrush, but is usually consistent within a brand. 

but it is not the best or easiest way to moderate airflow on an airbrush.

Take air,

ken

Mark 10:27

Badger Air-Brush Co. - American Made Airbrush Excellence!

www.badgerairbrush.com

Ken, you directly contradicted the expert on this forum.

Bgrigg

Well, I've never heard of an airbrush that has a modulating trigger for airflow.

I just fired mine up to see if I could feel a difference in air flow with my Badger 100LG, and it sure seems to me that it is either on or off.

From the Badger website on airbrush information:

SINGLE ACTION refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls only the air flow. The amount of fluid is regulated by turning the needle adjustment screw. When the trigger is depressed, a pre-set amount of fluid is sprayed

By which they mean on or off. I have a Badger 200, and a Badger 350 clone, and both require the needle to be pre-set, and the trigger operates whether the air is on, or off.

It would be analogous to compare an airbrush to a handgun, pulling the trigger harder doesn't fire the bullet any faster.

The only air control I've seen on an airbrush are the MAC control valves as offered by Grex, Iwata and others. paints.

I am also waiting for an answer from Ken at Badger for clarification from him on air flow control with Badger airbrushes, and will post when I have that information.

I suspect you are trolling to see what reactions you can get by arguing and splitting hairs. Begone Troll.

LOL

Theoretically a siphon can work in a vacuum.

You're the "show me" man, Keilau.

Grab a video and show me how you control the airflow of your airbrush with only the trigger.

Still trolling for reactions?

Oh, and I've never claimed to be an expert. Before I made any statement here, I pulled out my airbrush to see if it was possible. When questioned I contacted two experts for their reaction. Both said it was possible, but too difficult to use.

Your point is getting blunter.

keilau

kenbadger:

Theoretically the up and down movement of the trigger can moderate airflow dependant on the restriction the form and travel of the relevant trigger assembly components cause or allow on the air flow - and this will vary from airbrush to airbrush, but is usually consistent within a brand. 

but it is not the best or easiest way to moderate airflow on an airbrush.

Take air,

ken

Mark 10:27

Badger Air-Brush Co. - American Made Airbrush Excellence!

www.badgerairbrush.com

 

Ken, you directly contradicted the expert on this forum.

You're a real piece of work Keilau.  Parsing Ken's words to launch an attack on Bill.  That's brilliant!  By the way, did you bother to READ what Ken really said?  Do you understand what the word THEORETICALLY means?

A real piece of work, indeed...

By the way, how's that $50 compressor challenge of yours goin'?

MikeV

Bgrigg:

Get your facts straight. It only makes you look even more foolish than normal.

 

Is that possible Bill? This guy is a real piece of work. 

Hey Faust, let's see what you can do? Get a T-shirt and airbrush your best and I will do the same!

Game on,, and don't show up with those t shirts from your glory days. New season new game my friend.

Just make sure the t shirt your wearing is the one you want me to put some hairline on. LOL

See ya in Tucson @ the AB Corral

Dr

MikeV

Bgrigg:

Get your facts straight. It only makes you look even more foolish than normal.

 

Is that possible Bill? This guy is a real piece of work. 

Hey Faust, let's see what you can do? Get a T-shirt and airbrush your best and I will do the same!

Game on,, and don't show up with those t shirts from your glory days. New season new game my friend.

Just make sure the t shirt your wearing is the one you want me to put some hairline on. LOL

See ya in Tucson @ the AB Corral

Dr

bbrowniii

Keilau, if you took my comments as a personal attack, I apologize.  Mea Culpa.

Why doing it again?

keilau

bbrowniii:

Keilau, if you took my comments as a personal attack, I apologize.  Mea Culpa.

 

Why doing it again?

Let's be clear - I have not even BEGUN to get personal...

bbrowniii

keilau:

bbrowniii:

Keilau, if you took my comments as a personal attack, I apologize.  Mea Culpa.

 

Why doing it again?

 

Let's be clear - I have not even BEGUN to get personal...

bbrowniii

keilau:

bbrowniii:

Keilau, if you took my comments as a personal attack, I apologize.  Mea Culpa.

 

Why doing it again?

 

Let's be clear - I have not even BEGUN to get personal...

is begun word?

Dr. Faust

is begun word?

be·gun  (b-gn)

Dr. Faust

is begun word?

Are you freakin' kidding me??!!  No, Faust, it isn't... I just made it up... Oh, nope, wait, I stole it from some guy... you might have heard of him.  His name was John Paul Jones (the sailor, not the musician)...

Alright, Sparky... go over to your hope chest... pull out that High School diploma you pulled out of the Lucky Charms box... tear it into tiny pieces... now flush it down the toilet...

Hey Keilau - see that?  That was personal...

bbrowniii

Dr. Faust:

is begun word?

 

Are you freakin' kidding me??!!  No, Faust, it isn't... I just made it up... Oh, nope, wait, I stole it from some guy... you might have heard of him.  His name was John Paul Jones (the sailor, not the musician)...

Alright, Sparky... go over to your hope chest... pull out that High School diploma you pulled out of the Lucky Charms box... tear it into tiny pieces... now flush it down the toilet...

Hey Keilau - see that?  That was personal...

Cool you guys are  wesome..

Is wesome word?

Bgrigg

Is wesome word?

yep it is

Bgrigg

Dr. Faust:

is begun word?

 

be·gun  (b-gn)

v.

Past participle of begin.

Is "is begun word?" a sentence?

NO!

Faust, I've wasted time searching through your posts for pics of your work, and there sure hasn't been a lot, is there. Put up or shut up.

Bgrigg

Dr. Faust:

is begun word?

 

be·gun  (b-gn)

v.

Past participle of begin.

Is "is begun word?" a sentence?

NO!

Faust, I've wasted time searching through your posts for pics of your work, and there sure hasn't been a lot, is there. Put up or shut up.

 well Itried top find your badge buid...opooppps    nada!!!

Faust, maybe if I can explain something to you, you'll back off. Probably not though.

I started the Studebaker for the 50s build with great hope and intention, even posted a couple of pics.

Then I got into an online scrap with somebody you remind me a lot of, and then that Christmas my wife was diagnosed with inflammatory brea$t cancer, and the wind went out of my modeling sails. Two and a half years later, she's still struggling with it, and I'm struggling to get back on board with numerous builds I have on the go. But I have to say the spark is gone for now. I hang around here trying to help people, but frankly putting up with your $hit makes one real tired.

So how about it? Follow the link to see some bad photography of a so-so kit, and cut the BS out of your sig, and I'll delete the GB Badge until I'm actually finished the kit?

If I'm not mistaken, the Aztek had as one of its early selling points, that you could use it as a single action or a double action airbrush and that air pressure could be adjusted with the trigger button by pulling it back and forth with your forefinger. Did this go by the wayside?

And why don't you guys cool it before you are all sent to the cooler?

Bgrigg

Faust, maybe if I can explain something to you, you'll back off. Probably not though.

I started the Studebaker for the 50s build with great hope and intention, even posted a couple of pics.

Then I got into an online scrap with somebody you remind me a lot of, and then that Christmas my wife was diagnosed with inflammatory brea$t cancer, and the wind went out of my modeling sails. Two and a half years later, she's still struggling with it, and I'm struggling to get back on board with numerous builds I have on the go. But I have to say the spark is gone for now. I hang around here trying to help people, but frankly putting up with your $hit makes one real tired.

So how about it? Follow the link to see some bad photography of a so-so kit, and cut the BS out of your sig, and I'll delete the GB Badge until I'm actually finished the kit?

Bill I truly hope your wife will be ok

Subfixer, you are correct, the Aztek 470 still works that way. If you set away from double action, you can dial in the maximum amount of paint it will put out, and the trigger can control the airflow as it has a large amount of travel.

Bill, my best wishes to you and your wife.

Gentlemen, as the person who started this thread to understand how the Grex trigger works, I appreciate all the comments. I've certainly learn a lot - didn't know there were so many variations with Double action brushes. I'm most likely will get either a Grex with trigger pull or a Badger Spirit, in addition to using my current Aztek brush.  I will definitely be getting the Grex compressor, small, quiet, built in moisture trap and regulator, auto-start/stop. Nice little compressor for under $200.  I would love to get one of those whisper quite silentaires, but the price is a bit out of my budget.

As to how this thread degenerated so quickly, please I would ask everyone to just take a step back. We're all here just trying to learn and share our hobby. Peace.

Waikong,

Thanks for your thoughts, and am stepping back.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts about the Spirit. What benefits do you see a side feed providing to a modeler, as opposed to a gravity fed?

I guess for 2 reasons, first, I can change a side feed from gravity to siphon if I ever needed to (not that I think I'll need that for modelling - but seems like a nice feature to have). Second, it would seem a straight top feed may block my view for detail work?  I never used a top feed, so I am just worrying about nothing here? Or I guess it depends on how big the cup is? I would imagine a top feed would be easier to clean.

The ability to switch from top feed to bottom feed has it's charms, and a side feed also has the ability to point straight down, which is of obvious benefit to an illustrator. I've often thought about flushing out my collection with the 100SF to match my 100LG and 150. IMHO the side feed is a better way of doing it than the 360, with it's rotating cup.

I confess that I don't aim down the body of my airbrushes, and don't understand the issue of sight line problems with top feed. My 100LG's cup is barely over an inch tall, and I find it doesn't prevent me from observing the needle when painting.The view is improved with the 150, but in practice I hold and use them pretty much the same way. It's like sitting behind a short person at the movies. You can see their head, but it doesn't affect the view of the screen.

I find top feed airbrushes easier to clean. You don't have a siphon tube to deal with, but in practice it really isn't a time saver. I can clean my 100LG in 2-3 minutes and my 150 with color cup in 3-4 minutes.

I have a friend who has a side feed, and he loves his. He's used a top feed, and finds that they are pretty much the same in use.

I've played with one of the Grex brushes. I found the trigger design takes a little getting used to after using more typical top button design. I'm not sure that I like it better or worse, it's just different. I did find it harder to control paint and air for fine work, but that may just be a matter of practice. And I'm not a big fan of the screw on side-mounted gravity cup because it has a habit of loosening up during extended painting sessions and I'd be afraid it my up end dumping paint on my shoes or model. Cleaning was about the same as other brushes. The Grex I've used had a couple of other neat features: A snap-on connection to the air line that allows you to leave the air supply on during brush changes and a pressure fine-tune nob on the valve. If I used a Grex everyday like I do my BearAir, I'm sure it would become second nature and the handle design maybe more comfortable for some modelers.

Cheers, Aaron

Aaron & Bill, thanks for your insight. I'm leaning more to the Badger renegade spirit now, as Aaron, said the pull trigger seems to be more of a comfort thing than a control thing. In the scale that i work in (1/48), I rarely have a 'cramp' trigger finger.  Not to mention that the badger is 1/2 the price of the Grex.  Now, one final question - is the chrome finish on AB just cosmetics or does it make things easier to clean?  The Badger has a dark gun metal finish.

I've never suffered from a cramped finger either, but maybe I'm doing it wrong!

Not having used the Renegades before I can't say if the chrome makes it easier to clean. I'm sure the gun metal finish is just as smooth, but I can see how the dark color could potentially make it more difficult to see if certain colors remain in the cup! I have read a couple of reviews where the user has commented on this. Most reviewers do not, so not sure if it's a real issue or not. I rarely spray gun metal, so it wouldn't be a concern. I did read a review on the Spirit where the user didn't like the metal plug used to seal the other side of the side feed, and they replaced it with a rubber plug. So far, that and the finish color are the only negatives I've read.

The price point is the thing that catches me, every time! Justifying a $200+ airbrush is difficult for me. Even justifying a $120 airbrush is troublesome. Must be my Scots heritage coming through!

Gee I had no idea this thread was still running.

I haven't had any problems sighting my GREX XG over the centrally mounted colour cup. I suppose it would depend on how you hold the brush though.

The GMAC I bought with mine I rarely ever use. I have a compressor with a tank and an adjustable valve so I generally change the pressure there. I suppose it would make a difference if using a 'pressor without a tank though.

I'm of two minds on the grip GREX sells. The pistol grip should be more comfortable but the way your index finger has to curve over the top to reach the button trigger seems to negate any advantage for me. I think it helps some but it's not a must-have.

I currently own two brushes: the GREX XG and a Paasche Millennium. After I did the Thai Ki-43 I posted here a couple of monthes ago with the Paasche I realized I really needed a detail brush and picked up the GREX. I still love the Paasche but I find myself using the GREX more and more these days.

And frankly I've never tried regulating the air flow with the trigger. To me doing that and rocking the trigger back and forth to regulate the paint flow, well it seems like the old stunt about patting your head and rubbing your tummy in circles at the same time. If you can do more power to you, but I'm afraid I'm not that percise.

And the last cool thing about the GREX is it's cool green colour. As a giant green turtle I approve!!!

Okay, so I'm dragging this old thread out from the cobwebs. But I now have a Grex compressor and a Tamiya Super HG airbrush for a few months now, so I can make sure observations for those who are still interested.

Grex compressor - quiet, auto/on off, got it for under $180 - highly recommended.

Tamiya Super HG - similar to Iwator and Ben Rich from what I read. Compared to the Aztek 470:  Much more work to clean, can spray a finer coat of paint, easier to control as there's less play in the trigger, great for fine lines and layering paint.  As everyone have mentioned, this 'traditiona' brush does not give any control via how deeply you press the tirgger. There's simlply not enough travel in the trigger to do so.  With the Aztek I am able to do just that.

So now I use the Aztek for primers, Future coats, and over large coverage and use the Tamiya for all fine details and camo finshes.

waikong

Grex compressor - quiet, auto/on off, got it for under $180 - highly recommended.

It's just a little over 6 months.

Any more detail on the Grex compressor?

A while back, there was a long thread on Warbirdbuilder's complaint about moisture problem of his Grex compressor. A Grex rep said that the compressor was supposed to run hot because of the higher pressure. (It is no higher than other similar airbrush compressors, in fact.)

It does not sound like that you have any moisture problem. Does the compressor stay cool? Can you put your hand on the compressor cylinder head after half hour run without feeling burnt?

This is the only review I have seen on the Tamiya HG Superfine. The author compared it to the Aztec 470 too. Did you identify a source for the Tamiya airbrush parts (needle, nozzle etc.)? It would be nice to know if they are interchangable with Iwata parts.

I haven't noticed any heat problem -but I've never tried putting my hand over it.  The compressor has a auto on/off - it only runs when you've sufficiently decreased the air pressue inside.  So it never really runs continuously for more than a a few seconds.  I guess maybe if you sprayed continuously for minutes without stopping, the heat may build up.  But in my typical session, it would maybe come on for 3-4 seconds every 1/2 a minute or so. I'll give putting my hand over it  this weekend.

No issue with moisture either, the unit comes with a regulator and moisture trap. So if there's any moisture getting into the line, I says it's just defective.

I have not tried spare parts compatibility, but at least from a hose and fittings, I see places selling stuff that's Iwata/Tamiya compatible.

Most piston type compressors are recommended to be turned of to cool down for a couple of minutes every 15-20 period. To run it for more than this is asking for heat related problems, which will end in excessive wear. This is one of the primary reasons why I recommend compressors with tanks. With a tank, the pauses comes naturally. But I've seen them break down as well. Not to long ago I read about a person who complained about that his Sparmax TC-5000 broke down the first day. Problem was that he had left it on in his garage, without anything connected. It broke down after a couple of hours.

I have Tamiya HG Superfine on order, just to compare with my Rich RB-2. I will get back with info on how they differ, and which parts are interchangable. I believe that most important parts are the same, and needles and nozzles are quite cheap for the Richs.  

waikong

I haven't noticed any heat problem -but I've never tried putting my hand over it.  The compressor has a auto on/off - it only runs when you've sufficiently decreased the air pressue inside.  So it never really runs continuously for more than a a few seconds.  I guess maybe if you sprayed continuously for minutes without stopping, the heat may build up.  But in my typical session, it would maybe come on for 3-4 seconds every 1/2 a minute or so. I'll give putting my hand over it  this weekend.

It is how I expect a compressor with the auto-on-off switch to work. The motor runs only when the airbrush trigger was pushed. That's why I was so surprised that Warbirdbuilder had the moisture problem and the Grex rep came online to state that Grex compressor was supposed to run hot.

I added a 1-gallon tank to a Paasche DA400 compressor. The tank is a little bigger than most that comes with the airbrush compressor with tank. The motor runs just over 3 minutes to fill the tank when it is first turned on. It did not get hot. I tried to force the motor to run up to 30 minutes once. It got warm to the touch, but never hot enough to burn figure. I expect most good design to be like that.

waikong

No issue with moisture either, the unit comes with a regulator and moisture trap. So if there's any moisture getting into the line, I says it's just defective.

It should not have moisture problem except in extremely humid climate where the air may be saturated to begin with. I still suspect that Warbirdbuilder got a defective compressor.