How are Grex airbrushes?

Bgrigg

Keilau,

How convenient it is for you to "forget" you not only have a single action airbrush, but it is precisely the kind that has an air valve that allows modulation of air. Amazing!

I am not the one splitting hairs. I have been as clear and as precise as I can be in expressing myself. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated an ability to put words in my mouth (control is on/off and nothing in between), and have conveniently misconstrued the differences between single and dual action airbrushes, and now you are informing me that I use my Badger airbrushes differently than other users!

......

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like my "way of handling the truth", it is still the truth.

Yeah, there is definately something shady going on here with you Keilau.  I mean, I looked back through the first dozen or so pages of your posts and you are all over the place talking about airbrushes.  You talk about their technical merits, their strenghts and weaknesses, the attributes of brushes from different companies, yet you expect us to accept that you don't grasp the difference between a single and a double action airbrush?  C'mon, man, what are you really up to?

At 1st I was going say how could i have missed tis thread.  Now having gone through it I am glad did did.

So Waikong, to get back to your original question... there was one... wasn't there?  The control is utterly fantastic.   Whether you wanna think your a playing with the air flow or not... don't care.  The key to this AB is the trigger grip.  As stated, Yes my Jagdtiger was the 1st really use of the AB.  That camo was laid down in 1 paint session.  Including the going back to touch up accidental over sprays and the like.  Had I done that with my Badger I would have had to stop so many time because I get horrific writers cramp during long sessions.  Start to finish it was so comfortable.

The other thing that is essential is micro air control valve with quick connects.  This give precise... Oh, lets through a a log on the fire...constant... air flow control.  The hose is set up with quick connect so the Badger and the Grex swap out instantly.

I was playing around nd have gotten a spray that would work doing free hand mottle on a 144th German fighter.

Marc, thanks for your input, so I'm seriously looking at buying their combo package with the gun and compressor, comes with the MAC valve too.  Yeah, I'm not sure how this thread got so heated so fast. 

Marc, adjusting air flow with a valve isn't a log on the fire, it's insisting that it's a feature of double action airbrush triggers that does it. I said a few pages back that the MAC valve or regulator is the way to adjust for air flow.

I have my regulator mounted inside the spray booth and can tweak air easily and do so on a fairly constant basis.

Bgrigg

I have my regulator mounted inside the spray booth and can tweak air easily and do so on a fairly constant basis.

Yeah, that's what I do too.  The person who taught me the basics of airbrushing suggested it, and being able to adjust airflow at the booth has made a world of difference for me.  Too many years of contact sports, martial arts, and the military have left me a bit stiffer in the fingers and wrists than I should be for my age (39), so big adjustment  knobs are my friend.

Also, in that review of the Grex grip, it is mentioned it should work with similarly shaped Badger airbrushes.  As I primarily use a 100LG, I might have to shell out the $25 and give one a try.  Anything for less hand fatigue!

Chris

I missed that it fit Badgers, the Grex website doesn't list Badgers at all, and specifically mentions Omni and Vega airbrushes won't work with the grip. Hmmm, things to consider!

The review mentioned 'should fit similarly engineered...' as the Iwata the reviewer was using.  A 100LG, and probably a Velocity or Patriot may/should fit.  Perhaps I should email Grex myself.

Your are right Bill.  I was referring to the word "constant" as in not variable during usage.

With this little valve I keep my compressor more or less at full on.

Check this link for your Badger connection.

http://www.grexusa.com/grexairbrush/products.php5?id=G-MAC.B

If oyu have the valve then all you need to the adaptor atthe bottom of this page

http://www.grexusa.com/grexairbrush/prod_type.php5?prod_type=Quick Connects

EDIT: not sure whythe word Connects is part of the hyperlink.  It is part of the URL

bbrowniii

Bgrigg:

Keilau,

How convenient it is for you to "forget" you not only have a single action airbrush, but it is precisely the kind that has an air valve that allows modulation of air. Amazing!

I am not the one splitting hairs. I have been as clear and as precise as I can be in expressing myself. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated an ability to put words in my mouth (control is on/off and nothing in between), and have conveniently misconstrued the differences between single and dual action airbrushes, and now you are informing me that I use my Badger airbrushes differently than other users!

......

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like my "way of handling the truth", it is still the truth.

 

Yeah, there is definately something shady going on here with you Keilau.  I mean, I looked back through the first dozen or so pages of your posts and you are all over the place talking about airbrushes.  You talk about their technical merits, their strenghts and weaknesses, the attributes of brushes from different companies, yet you expect us to accept that you don't grasp the difference between a single and a double action airbrush?  C'mon, man, what are you really up to?

Do you have to resort to personal attack??

waikong

For those interested, here's some reviews of Grex's pistol grip airbrushes

http://www.masterclassmodels.com/review12.html 

Waikong, there is no question that the reviewer likes his Grex a lot. I am very curious about what he meant when he said, "The unique trigger design offers a great compromise between double action and single action brushes".

When you get your Grex, let us know what difference do you notice. Gerald Voigt likes it a lot when switching from the Iwata to this Grex. Other potential buyer may ask the same question that you originally asked.

Has anyone have experiences with them? How does the pistal style work as a double action brush, as there's only one single motion - pulling back vs the tradtional trigger that allows me to control air (down) and paint (back) separately. I'm not sure how that works in a pistol grip, sures looks more comfortable though.

I will like to hear your opinion on the MAC valve and how you may use it in modeling too. Some on this forum had said that it was completely useless and other embrace as one of the best innovation.

Oh, the next airbrush I get, it will definitely have some sort of MAC valve. My aztek 470 has the equivalent, a dial that sets it to dual action or single action or anything in between which a MAC valve basically does - limits the amount of paint that comes out when the trigger is fully engaged.

I find that its useful as its much easier to get a consistent amount of paint out with such a feature.  It doesn't allow you to do anything more than a dual-action brush, rather it rachets down the skills required for certain jobs.

Same with this whole issue regarding varying airlfow with the trigger. There's nothing that this feature has that can't be done with varying the air pressure directly - either with a MAC valve or a regulator. Rather it just makes certain things easier. Believe me, I don't claim to be an airbrush artist of any sort, I consider mysel an airbrush beginner. 

However, I do  use this feature to quickly dry paint with a gentle stream of air so I can judge the sheen of the color better, or I'll use it to create a fine mist coat. Sure, I can do the same thing by varying the amount of paint, or turning down the pressure - no argument from me there. It just so happens that's how I learned to do certain things with the features of my airbrush. Just like the way Brett Green from Hyperscale holds his Aztek 'funny', it works for him and I'm not going to say he needs to hold it the 'standard' way.

waikong

I find that its useful as its much easier to get a consistent amount of paint out with such a feature.  It doesn't allow you to do anything more than a dual-action brush, rather it rachets down the skills required for certain jobs.

Believe me, I don't claim to be an airbrush artist of any sort, I consider mysel an airbrush beginner. 

It just so happens that's how I learned to do certain things with the features of my airbrush. Just like the way Brett Green from Hyperscale holds his Aztek 'funny', it works for him and I'm not going to say he needs to hold it the 'standard' way.

Looking at the several airbrush articles in FSM over the last years, skillful modelers use airbrush from simple to very high end. I do agree with you that MAC and needle stop makes life easier for the average modelers. Hearing that from you is refreshing.

After tired of the Paasche H, I got an Aztek 470 after watching many Brett Green videos. I quickly found out that I cannot do what Brett does and did not like the Aztek control. I switch to an Iwata HP-CS and like it a lot.

Interesting thread, I have noticed my inbox full of posts on it, but haven't had a chance to post so far.

Anyway, for what it's worth The H&S Infinity has "air" trigger up/down movement of approx. 1.0 > 1.75mm available, dependent on how the tension on the air valve below the trigger is adjusted. I agree that the airflow can be controlled, but only to a fashion (how much control can you get from about 1.5mm of movement).

I have tried to use this method of control in the past, but the problem I have had when doing so is that the control is very limited, difficult to achieve & not constantly repeatable. To me it seems like a side effect of the way the air valve operates, as opposed to being a "control feature".

In my early days with this brush, in an effort to get this type of  "air control" working properly, I stripped the air valve, polished it internally, lubed it, tried different springs......................., but all to no avail - I now use my proper air control, the one bolted onto my compressor.

From what the news suggests, there has been an "air control" issue right across Europe - apparently the Icelander's, first the bank's & now the airspace!

Milairjunkie

Interesting thread, I have noticed my inbox full of posts on it, but haven't had a chance to post so far.

Anyway, for what it's worth The H&S Infinity has "air" trigger up/down movement of approx. 1.0 > 1.75mm available, dependent on how the tension on the air valve below the trigger is adjusted. I agree that the airflow can be controlled, but only to a fashion (how much control can you get from about 1.5mm of movement).

I have tried to use this method of control in the past, but the problem I have had when doing so is that the control is very limited, difficult to achieve & not constantly repeatable. To me it seems like a side effect of the way the air valve operates, as opposed to being a "control feature".

I have an Iwata Eclipse and found that I can have a few steps of air flow control. And you are right that it is hardly repeatable and not a practical technique. I found that it has some value in painting long narrow strips (masked) and wonder what other more advanced modeler think of it. I have a cheap knock-off that has a MAC. The MAC gives large range of air flow control right at the airbrush. Is it off any value to a modeler?

I just got a H&S Evolution Silverline recently. Have not use it much yet. The up and down trigger feel is very similar to the Iwata.

From all account, the Grex pull trigger will be air flow on-off only.

keilau

 

Yeah, there is definately something shady going on here with you Keilau.  I mean, I looked back through the first dozen or so pages of your posts and you are all over the place talking about airbrushes.  You talk about their technical merits, their strenghts and weaknesses, the attributes of brushes from different companies, yet you expect us to accept that you don't grasp the difference between a single and a double action airbrush?  C'mon, man, what are you really up to?

 

Do you have to resort to personal attack??

Personal attack?  Hardly.  I was simply asking an honest question regarding your motivations in persisting in the argument you were having.  However, since the thread has moved into more informative territory, I am happy to drop that line of inquiry...

Sorry, but just to throw in my small $0.02 into this mix. With my Aztec airbrush, by varying the pressure on the trigger (how far down I press on it, NOT how far back I pull) I can vary the amount of air being released (even though my compressor is set to a static pressure measure). By pulling back on the trigger, I control the amount of paint. I've done this literally for years...

I have only once used my Peak C-5 and I honestly cannot recall if I can perform this same action, but from just playing around with it a bit right now, I would have to say 'no', or certainly not with the degree of control that I get out of the Aztec.

bbrowniii

 

Bgrigg:

 

Keilau,

How convenient it is for you to "forget" you not only have a single action airbrush, but it is precisely the kind that has an air valve that allows modulation of air. Amazing!

I am not the one splitting hairs. I have been as clear and as precise as I can be in expressing myself. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated an ability to put words in my mouth (control is on/off and nothing in between), and have conveniently misconstrued the differences between single and dual action airbrushes, and now you are informing me that I use my Badger airbrushes differently than other users!

......

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like my "way of handling the truth", it is still the truth.

 

 

Yeah, there is definately something shady going on here with you Keilau.  I mean, I looked back through the first dozen or so pages of your posts and you are all over the place talking about airbrushes.  You talk about their technical merits, their strenghts and weaknesses, the attributes of brushes from different companies, yet you expect us to accept that you don't grasp the difference between a single and a double action airbrush?  C'mon, man, what are you really up to?

Not trying to stir this pot any further than it already is, but it is a personal attack, and pretty much a "yeah, me too" one, after BGrigg posted the obtuse commentary. Not agreeing or disagreeing, but lets just get back on topic. Reading this thread has definitely been very informative, at least in understanding of some basic principles of this tool.

zokissima

Not trying to stir this pot any further than it already is, but it is a personal attack, and pretty much a "yeah, me too" one, after BGrigg posted the obtuse commentary. Not agreeing or disagreeing, but lets just get back on topic. Reading this thread has definitely been very informative, at least in understanding of some basic principles of this tool.

Well, that's two people who have seen what I said as a personal attack.  In my last post, I had said I would move on, but apparently, before I can an apology is in order. 

Keilau, if you took my comments as a personal attack, I apologize.  Mea Culpa.

zokissma, since I use the Aztek also, I have the same experiene as you. Since I have not really used any other dual action airbrush, I had assume they all worked the same. Evidently they do not and makes the user learn different skills sets.

waikong

zokissma, since I use the Aztek also, I have the same experiene as you. Since I have not really used any other dual action airbrush, I had assume they all worked the same. Evidently they do not and makes the user learn different skills sets.

No, I do not think a different skillset is required really; the principles behind the two are the same. To be completely honest, I love my Aztec, but with it varying both air and paint amount, I actually find it a bit more fickle, and the Peak, which functions pretty much as BGrigg and others have described dual-action airbrushes to have, I find that I actually have a far greater degree of usability, and a 'feeling' of greater control.

bbrowniii

 

zokissima:

 

 

 

Not trying to stir this pot any further than it already is, but it is a personal attack, and pretty much a "yeah, me too" one, after BGrigg posted the obtuse commentary. Not agreeing or disagreeing, but lets just get back on topic. Reading this thread has definitely been very informative, at least in understanding of some basic principles of this tool.

 

 

Well, that's two people who have seen what I said as a personal attack.  In my last post, I had said I would move on, but apparently, before I can an apology is in order. 

Keilau, if you took my comments as a personal attack, I apologize.  Mea Culpa.

In all honesty buddy, I too often play with semantics, and just act as devils' advocate. I didn't mean any harm by my post, and hope none was perceived.

zokissima

waikong:

zokissma, since I use the Aztek also, I have the same experiene as you. Since I have not really used any other dual action airbrush, I had assume they all worked the same. Evidently they do not and makes the user learn different skills sets.

 

No, I do not think a different skillset is required really; the principles behind the two are the same. To be completely honest, I love my Aztec, but with it varying both air and paint amount, I actually find it a bit more fickle, and the Peak, which functions pretty much as BGrigg and others have described dual-action airbrushes to have, I find that I actually have a far greater degree of usability, and a 'feeling' of greater control.

Zokissma

Perhaps I have become a bit confused as this discussion has evolved.  Is it your opinion that the Aztek is engineered to intentionally give you 'control' over the volume of air at the trigger, or is it simply a consequence of the trigger pull (technically a push in this case, I think?)? 

I ask because, as I said, I get some slight 'control' with my Badger, but I certainly don't think it was intended to be that way - I think it is simply the result of the distance I have to press the trigger to go from 'off' to full 'on'.

zokissima

 

In all honesty buddy, I too often play with semantics, and just act as devils' advocate. I didn't mean any harm by my post, and hope none was perceived.

Me?  No.  I was being legitimate (for once ) that if two people admitted to seeing what I said as a personal attack, then I owed Keilau an apology.  I didn't take any offense at your post and didn't perceive anything negative in it.

zokissima

No, I do not think a different skillset is required really; the principles behind the two are the same. To be completely honest, I love my Aztec, but with it varying both air and paint amount, I actually find it a bit more fickle, and the Peak, which functions pretty much as BGrigg and others have described dual-action airbrushes to have, I find that I actually have a far greater degree of usability, and a 'feeling' of greater control.

Emphasis mine.

This is why I keep saying this ability has dubious merit.

Zoran, you have a greater degree of usability and feeling of control, because you are using the airbrush as it is intended, which provides the maximum level of control. You feel in control, because you are in control.

Attempting to hold a trigger in a certain position for air, while laterally moving the trigger position for paint makes airbrushing so much more difficult that I'm shocked so many people even want to try to do it.

The vast majority of modern airbrushes expect the user to hold the air full on and adjust the pressure with a regulator of some kind, and MAC valves are nothing other than a form of regulator. Trigger on, pull back for paint. Don't like the results? Trigger off, raise or lower the pressure. Trigger on, pull back for paint. Repeat as necessary.

I'm sure some people can "vary" the air flow with a dual action trigger, but it's not designed to modulate air flow. I can make an light switch vary the flow of electricity by holding it so that is doesn't make good contact, and look, the lights kinda sorta dim, but that's not how light switches are supposed to work. They're supposed to be on or off. Turn on for light and off for dark. Want the lighting somewhere in between? Buy a dimmer switch, which is an electrical analog for pressure regulators.

I suspect that Azteks do have this "ability" as so many of them are mated to the Testors Blue Mini abomination, which doesn't come with a regulator, and therefore the user has 'some' measure of controlling the air flow. They offer a pressure valve and regulator as two separate items and want the Earth for them! Unbelievably Testors has all three items at the full MSRP of $285.97!

Bgrigg

zokissima:

No, I do not think a different skillset is required really; the principles behind the two are the same. To be completely honest, I love my Aztec, but with it varying both air and paint amount, I actually find it a bit more fickle, and the Peak, which functions pretty much as BGrigg and others have described dual-action airbrushes to have, I find that I actually have a far greater degree of usability, and a 'feeling' of greater control.

Emphasis mine.

This is why I keep saying this ability has dubious merit.

Zoran, you have a greater degree of usability and feeling of control, because you are using the airbrush as it is intended, which provides the maximum level of control. You feel in control, because you are in control.

Attempting to hold a trigger in a certain position for air, while laterally moving the trigger position for paint makes airbrushing so much more difficult that I'm shocked so many people even want to try to do it.

The vast majority of modern airbrushes expect the user to hold the air full on and adjust the pressure with a regulator of some kind, and MAC valves are nothing other than a form of regulator. Trigger on, pull back for paint. Don't like the results? Trigger off, raise or lower the pressure. Trigger on, pull back for paint. Repeat as necessary.

I'm sure some people can "vary" the air flow with a dual action trigger, but it's not designed to modulate air flow. I can make an light switch vary the flow of electricity by holding it so that is doesn't make good contact, and look, the lights kinda sorta dim, but that's not how light switches are supposed to work. They're supposed to be on or off. Turn on for light and off for dark. Want the lighting somewhere in between? Buy a dimmer switch, which is an electrical analog for pressure regulators.

I suspect that Azteks do have this "ability" as so many of them are mated to the Testors Blue Mini abomination, which doesn't come with a regulator, and therefore the user has 'some' measure of controlling the air flow. They offer a pressure valve and regulator as two separate items and want the Earth for them! Unbelievably Testors has all three items at the full MSRP of $285.97!

 

Oh Gawd

I refuse to listen or argue with a guy who can not show his own work

sorry   A  know it all and do nothing it all don't fly wiith me.   

Faust,

You're not sorry at all. All you do is bounce around this forum and make caustic remarks. You don't want to "listen" to me then don't.

Bgrigg

Faust,

You're not sorry at all. All you do is bounce around this forum and make caustic remarks. You don't want to "listen" to me then don't.

Show us what ya got   walk the walk and quit the talk

Locked thread in 4....3....2....1.............................................

Sad thing is he's been like this with me since he got here. Usually I ignore his stupid remarks. And look he's acting up just before Matt and Aaron are going away for the weekend.

When they switched over to the new forum, we lost our troll emoticon, so I'll pull this one out of my grab bag.

Bgrigg

Keilau,

How convenient it is for you to "forget" you not only have a single action airbrush, but it is precisely the kind that has an air valve that allows modulation of air. Amazing!

I am not the one splitting hairs. I have been as clear and as precise as I can be in expressing myself. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated an ability to put words in my mouth (control is on/off and nothing in between), and have conveniently misconstrued the differences between single and dual action airbrushes, and now you are informing me that I use my Badger airbrushes differently than other users!

I will remind you that you sent me an essay on your thoughts on airbrushes. Let me quote some key sections that are pertinent to this discussion:

I have 5 airbrushes. I have the Iwata Eclipse HP-CS, a Badger 105 Patriot, a Paasche H, a Powercat 203 (Iwata C+ knockoff) and a Powcat (sic) 800 (Badger 155 knockoff). I use only the Iwata and the Badger regularly for modeling...

The Iwata HP-CS is my primary airbrush for most modeling works. Iwata Eclipse HP-CS trigger have very short vertical travel. It is almost like an on-and-off only.

I started with a Paasche H 20+ years ago. It did what I needed. Nice finish without brush marks and covering larger area (1:16 scale tank) relatively fast. I found changing color, upkeeping and cleaning the airbrush a drag. I used it very sparsely and stayed with brush or rattle can most of the time. I still have the Paashce (sic) H in very good condition, but I soldemly (sic) touch it. I changed my view on airbrushing when I got the Iwata a year ago.

Now I know that you have since added an H&S to your stable bringing your total up to six airbrushes, five of which are dual action, but you could remember a detail like ownership of a single action Paasche H in mid February, but not two months later? I find that convenient.

I also find it convenient that you can modulate air with your Iwata, even though you had early noted it's short travel, and how it was "like an on-and-off only."

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like my "way of handling the truth", it is still the truth.

Bgrigg

Keilau,

How convenient it is for you to "forget" you not only have a single action airbrush, but it is precisely the kind that has an air valve that allows modulation of air. Amazing!

I am not the one splitting hairs. I have been as clear and as precise as I can be in expressing myself. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated an ability to put words in my mouth (control is on/off and nothing in between), and have conveniently misconstrued the differences between single and dual action airbrushes, and now you are informing me that I use my Badger airbrushes differently than other users!

I will remind you that you sent me an essay on your thoughts on airbrushes. Let me quote some key sections that are pertinent to this discussion:

I have 5 airbrushes. I have the Iwata Eclipse HP-CS, a Badger 105 Patriot, a Paasche H, a Powercat 203 (Iwata C+ knockoff) and a Powcat (sic) 800 (Badger 155 knockoff). I use only the Iwata and the Badger regularly for modeling...

The Iwata HP-CS is my primary airbrush for most modeling works. Iwata Eclipse HP-CS trigger have very short vertical travel. It is almost like an on-and-off only.

I started with a Paasche H 20+ years ago. It did what I needed. Nice finish without brush marks and covering larger area (1:16 scale tank) relatively fast. I found changing color, upkeeping and cleaning the airbrush a drag. I used it very sparsely and stayed with brush or rattle can most of the time. I still have the Paashce (sic) H in very good condition, but I soldemly (sic) touch it. I changed my view on airbrushing when I got the Iwata a year ago.

Now I know that you have since added an H&S to your stable bringing your total up to six airbrushes, five of which are dual action, but you could remember a detail like ownership of a single action Paasche H in mid February, but not two months later? I find that convenient.

I also find it convenient that you can modulate air with your Iwata, even though you had early noted it's short travel, and how it was "like an on-and-off only."

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like my "way of handling the truth", it is still the truth.

I started with a Paasche H 20+ years ago  I started with a Paasche H 20+ years ago I started with a Paasche H 20+ years ago

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like my "way of handling the truth", it is still the truth