Totally Confused about Vietnam War

Sounds great Next month I will put out the official "recruiting threads" in each appropriate forum here.

I'm in with something century series Jet wearing Camo!

This is gonna be a good one!

I'm in

Bump- pre GB feeler contained within...who is still here and wanting to partake? lots of old faces are gone and new ones have come in...

Just about every name in that movie had a double meaning. I really do need to see it again.

Looks like a total-quality bomb experience to me .

Nah this thread has been quite mellow for the past month or so....

But who will build one of these?

I must of missed out on the reheat after your last August 30 post then, if thats the one your talking about  . What happened , did it all get deleted again ? I think the mods are keeping an eye on this thread .

Looks like things here heated up again just a tad after I last visited.  Then cooled right back down.

Anyway, I'm going to make a list of all the books that were recommended here before this thread sinks into oblivion (if that's what it does ...).  I bought the Misty book, but haven't started it yet.  I'd like to read them all.  Sooner or later, I suppose I will.

Amazing this thread is still going.  Just dropped in, first time in a long time, to see what's keeping it afloat.

It's hard to imagine anybody but Slim Pickens riding the bomb, LOL!.  As for Linebacker, etc., POWs have said that the only time they saw fear on the faces of their guards was while the B-52s were set loose.  Oddly enough, their treatment actually improved during those times.  My cousin did three tours in Thailand as B-52 aircrew (engineering) during 'Nam, and logged time over the North (he also served as crewchief of a KC-135 in Desert Storm).

Stik, count me in for your 'Nam GB, when it gets here.  Anyway, think I'll read back a few pages to see what's been going on ...

Hmmmm, the same as is 12 O'Clock High... interesting

Leper Colony

Interesting... all three visually fit the role...

Slim Pickens got the part, John Wayne was approached but refused to even respond for obvious reasons, and Dan Blocker turned it down.

Oh Bondo, you have me there on those Dr Strangelove questions. I have only seen the movie once and do not yet have it in my DVD library. But it is up next (along with Fail Safe) in my Netflix queu. My last movie there was The Bedford Incident . Lets just say I was considering the mindet differences between then and now. I will have to look on IMDB and see if the answers are there on that trivia just for S&Gs. I do recall that when I watched Dr Strangelove how in the Air Force Base combat sequences that Kubrick used the style of filming with the assaulting troops (as he would do again in Full Metal Jacket) that was later raved about in Spielberg's Saving Private Ryan...

Regarding the BUFF in Vietnam, it was indeed a decisive weapon. Using it as a tactical bomber for 7 years in "low threat" areas while single and twin seat fighter bombers were used to conduct strategic bombing campaigns in the heart of the enemy defenses pretty much sums up the "AB" approach to the air war. Tactical errors made in Linebacker II were quickly analyzed and corrected and by the end of those two weeks, if anything close to a victory in the air, by air, can be claimed, it was due to the BUFF along with all the supporting air elements- SEAD, MiGCAP, EW, Tankers...

That image was used in leaflets dropped on Iraq by the USAF in 1992

"Desert Storm is coming. Flee immediately".

My one and only mud wrestle with the monogram BUFF involved a back date to a C for a movie night , Dr. Strangelove of course.

Stik we've had a few trivia contests on that one. Name of the a/c in the book?

The ultimate targeted ICBM complex name and why?

Major Kong's character was which of three actors considered, and who were the others?

However, back to Vietnam. I personally consider the B-52 to be the single most important a/c in that conflict. not withstanding the losses; that a/c could basically win a battlefield every time.

If SAM suppression was effective, the terror and destruction of a bombing raid set the enemy back weeks if not months.

stikpusher

Yes, the differences in the capabilities of US airpower in 1967/68 compared to the French in 1953/54 are phenomenal. All of the US air arms were able to deliver an incredible amount of firepower with excellent accuracy to support the Marine garrison. B-52 strikes within a mile or so of the perimeter and smaller fast movers dropping stuff "danger close" to friendlies. What was tried in Normandy by both the RAF and USAAF to have heavy bombers achieve was achieved at Khe Sanh.

As far as intel goes, you can gather the best in the world, but when and how it is analyzed, interpreted, distributed, and acted upon will always be the weak spot. That is the most human portion of the process.

There is always that classic Monogram/Revell B-52 kit... too bad I don't build 1/72 anymore. I always liked the look of the NMF over black early Arc Light bombers.

Looks like that might be a B-52F.

Ken

My plans for the Arab Israeli Wars GB is to include all the wars up thru 1982: War of Independence, Sinai/Suez 1956, Six Day War 1967, War of Attrition, Yom Kippur/Ramadan War 1973, and Lebanon 1982. Lots of subject choices in there including British and French...

Hmmmmm ....  Israel was using the M-50 and M-51 still in that war .I have a couple of them also .

Yup, I like to do my historical GBs to co incide with anniversary dates. I am thinking about next year an Arab Israeli Wars GB on the anniversary of the Oct 73 war

And that BUFF is a great old build... Like their 1/48 B-17,  B-24, B-29, B-58, and C-47.... true classics

Thats a ways off Stik . Good timing though .August of 2014 then . One thing i cant remember was it August 6 th or 7th over there .......due to the international date line .If i'm still vertical then i'll be interested . On a personal note the ship i was on ,CG-5 , was the flagship for thr 7th fleet when that incident happened . We where in port at Yokosuka , Japan . So of course we made a hasty departure for the Tonkin Gulf when that happened .

I never thought about building a B-52 . I've had the Monogram kit in my stash for years .

Shellback

Stik , just as i suspected , not much in the way of NVA/VC 1/35th figures.I know you had thought about a Vietnam war themed G.B. ........next year ?Not sure how much interest there will be in it . I have several possible models that will fit that conflict . I have the Tamiya M-48 and have many kits of the M-113 . I'll have to do some research but i have AFV's Long Tom ...........maybe that could apply also .Did you do a feeler on this G.b. idea ? Seems i remember you did .

Yes, I am planning on running a Vietnam GB in 2014 opening to co incide with the anniversary of the Gulf of Tonkin incident in August. I did a vague feeler a few weeks back and there was enough interest to go ahead.

Yes, the differences in the capabilities of US airpower in 1967/68 compared to the French in 1953/54 are phenomenal. All of the US air arms were able to deliver an incredible amount of firepower with excellent accuracy to support the Marine garrison. B-52 strikes within a mile or so of the perimeter and smaller fast movers dropping stuff "danger close" to friendlies. What was tried in Normandy by both the RAF and USAAF to have heavy bombers achieve was achieved at Khe Sanh.

As far as intel goes, you can gather the best in the world, but when and how it is analyzed, interpreted, distributed, and acted upon will always be the weak spot. That is the most human portion of the process.

There is always that classic Monogram/Revell B-52 kit... too bad I don't build 1/72 anymore. I always liked the look of the NMF over black early Arc Light bombers.

Stik , just as i suspected , not much in the way of NVA/VC 1/35th figures.I know you had thought about a Vietnam war themed G.B. ........next year ?Not sure how much interest there will be in it . I have several possible models that will fit that conflict . I have the Tamiya M-48 and have many kits of the M-113 . I'll have to do some research but i have AFV's Long Tom ...........maybe that could apply also .Did you do a feeler on this G.b. idea ? Seems i remember you did .

"I don't want any damn Din Bin Phoo".

Too bad the French didn't have B-52's....

There's a good section in "Bury us..." where the FAC's observe a great deal of added traffic on the 'trail in late 1967. At first they are stymied by bad weather, and later by the Christmas Truce, from coordinating any meaningful air strikes.

What intel and photos they were able to send up the chain got buried in the bureaucracy in Saigon until it was too late.

Shell, there are not too many 1/35 VC/NVA figures out there. I have seenmore in Resin and white metal (older)  and of course the one set of each (NVA Sapper, Viet Cong) that Dragon makes. Master Box seems to be coming out with some great new Vietnam themed figure sets and have included a few VC figures so far. I do beleive that Warriors possiby did a couple NVA tank riders. I know that they did do a tank crew set.

Regarding Tet- from what I have read that offensive was planned in the North by Giap as its prime backer, not in the South by the VC. There would have been no way for them to co ordinate with the NVA and receive the NVA participation that it did had it been planned strictly in the south. As part of the doctrine it had several objectives: To take and hold military and political objectives across the South and defeat the ARVN in open battle; to show the population in the South that the ARVN was being defeated and inspire teh "General Uprising" of the population; to inflict a battlfield defeat upon US military forces in open combt at places like Hue, Bien Hoa, and Khe Sanh, by VC Main Force and NVA Regular (yes there were NVA irreguars- militia in the North) units. Captured battlefield documents show that the NVA wanted a Dien Bien Phu type victory at Khe Sanh at the same time; and finally to score a propaganda victory worldwide by showing that they could attack on a large scale when the US was "winning the war".

Historicly speaking, they failed on all battlefield objectives, and scored only the propaganda victory- primarily with the help of the US Press. The NVA were decisively defeated in battle, the ARVN did not fold and fought back well, and the southern population never did "rise up". The VC were essentially destroyed during Tet, with some surviving VC even thinking that they had been intentionally sacrificed by Hanoi  due to deliberately slow follow up attacks by the NVA to relieve VC units to give Hanoi better control of the southern forces during the remainder of the war.

Thanks Ken

Hey Ken and Stik , back to the subject of models of the Vietnam war i saw a photo of an M48 tank with a bunch of NVA or V.C. ridding on it durring the last days of the the over run of the south . That could be an interesting and different subject . I dont know who makes the correct NVA / VC figures though .

Ken- that's the problem with this subject, but it sounds to me like you want it both ways. If you are going to throw it up there that CBS helped us lose the war, but claim that's not a political position, then the obvious conclusion is that they hit on some truth.

bondoman

Son Of Medicine Man

But because of Walter Cronkite's coverage it helped turned Americans view on the war to the negative.  And without the public's support, that is when the North Vietnamese won.

Ken

Chronkite was right and that's the bitter pill. He was and is as fine a journalist as there can be. CBS had maintained a policy of basically repeating what the military told them, until Tet. At that point they felt lied to, and saw the whole enterprise for what it was. It wasn't Chronkite but the senior editorial staff that decided to call the hand.

It's hard to know what the VC plan was as the records don't exist in much form. But the NV did keep records as any good post-colonial organization does, and they felt that by capitalizing on anti-war sentiment in the US and abandoning a conventional war that they could not win, they would create havoc in the South.

It's interesting to read that pilots returning from sorties up North were dismayed to see all of the burning cities to the South as they flew back to their bases. This relates directly to the confusion alluded to by the original poster- conditions very similar to why we can never "win" in Afghanistan.

Ken- that's a good list. The one thing I couldn't find were Skyhawks, but I probably missed them.

Also, I am planning to model the H-21C Chocktaw, UH-34 Shawnee and the SP-5 Marlin. Did not see those.

I will not get into an argument about whether Cronkite was right or not on this forum, it is not the place.

As far as the other aircraft you mentioned, you did not pay close enough attention to my post.  I listed aircraft used by the USAF, not the other branches of service.  That would be another list at least twice as long.

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

But because of Walter Cronkite's coverage it helped turned Americans view on the war to the negative.  And without the public's support, that is when the North Vietnamese won.

Ken

It's hard to know what the VC plan was as the records don't exist in much form. But the NV did keep records as any good post-colonial organization does, and they felt that by capitalizing on anti-war sentiment in the US and abandoning a conventional war that they could not win, they would create havoc in the South.

It's interesting to read that pilots returning from sorties up North were dismayed to see all of the burning cities to the South as they flew back to their bases. This relates directly to the confusion alluded to by the original poster- conditions very similar to why we can never "win" in Afghanistan.

Ken- that's a good list. The one thing I couldn't find were Skyhawks, but I probably missed them.

Also, I am planning to model the H-21C Shawnee, UH-34 Chocktaw and the SP-5 Marlin. Did not see those.

Stik , i googled that and it looks real interesting , thanks .

Yes, the communists showed their colors regarding those who served the RVN government and their families as far back as during the "advisory" phase of the war. When they would overrun Government camps at places like Binh Gia where the families of the defenders were slaughtered by the VC. That was part of their doctrine.

Shell, another good book about the end of that war is "The Last Battle" which is about the seizure of the SS Mayaguez and the subsequent operations to take back the ship and free its crew.

Shellback

Ok guys i just read "Last Men Out " by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin , about the Marines that evacuated the US embassy in Saigon and how they were overwhelmed by all of the South Vietnamese they tried to evacuate on short notice . They were dismayed by how many Vietnamese , those that had helped us , where left behind because the politicians drug there feet on starting the evacuation .Many of those left behind were tortured and executed . I dont want to start another flame here . Fact is though our politicians back in D.C. micro managed that war and lost it from their comfortable offices in Washington D.C. ! Ken , i agree with your signature statement and Stik already knows where i stand on that war .

 

Yes, and the sad fact is that there was already an indication of what was going to happen from the experience learned from Tet.  Hue was a big slaughter by the Vietcong of anyone they considered to be "enemies" of the new government.

Ken

Ok guys i just read "Last Men Out " by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin , about the Marines that evacuated the US embassy in Saigon and how they were overwhelmed by all of the South Vietnamese they tried to evacuate on short notice . They were dismayed by how many Vietnamese , those that had helped us , where left behind because the politicians drug there feet on starting the evacuation .Many of those left behind were tortured and executed . I dont want to start another flame here . Fact is though our politicians back in D.C. micro managed that war and lost it from their comfortable offices in Washington D.C. ! Ken , i agree with your signature statement and Stik already knows where i stand on that war . Oh yes i'm proud of son . He actually volunteered to go over there ....and for a year on top of that !

stikpusher

Son Of Medicine Man

I'm sorry, did I reference the wrong set? I have so many I may have. I thought this one was the right one.  Maybe the one I was thinking of was "Vietnam - A Television History".  It was also a box set that originally came out on VHS then later on DVD.  Same situation, the DVD is missing some chapters not included on the VHS set.

Here is a suggestion, pick an area of that war that you are well read up on, say Tet, or Linebacker, or whatever. Then watch an episode that covers that area and decide for yourself if there is bias.

Well, from your example, lets take Tet.  In Tet, they explain how we actually did defeat the Vietcong and they basically became an non functional force.  But because of Walter Cronkite's coverage it helped turned Americans view on the war to the negative.  And without the public's support, that is when the North Vietnamese won.

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

I'm sorry, did I reference the wrong set? I have so many I may have. I thought this one was the right one.  Maybe the one I was thinking of was "Vietnam - A Television History".  It was also a box set that originally came out on VHS then later on DVD.  Same situation, the DVD is missing some chapters not included on the VHS set.

Here is a suggestion, pick an area of that war that you are well read up on, say Tet, or Linebacker, or whatever. Then watch an episode that covers that area and decide for yourself if there is bias.

stikpusher

I have seen both series. One was put out by PBS, and one by the CBC, IIRC. And both tend to use the same footage, interview many of the same people, and present very similar outlooks. One is more biased than the other in my view but I can not recall which offhand. I have not seen either in years. I Know that my viewpoint is certainly skewered by the Vietnam Vets that I have met or served with. And being the types of soldiers that they were, either draftees, or volunteers, career or in and out, their firsthand perspectives spoken soldier to soldier were often quite different than what you see on these shows. They inspired a hunger in me to do lots of reading on the war. But then again I always had an interest to read on it as an adolescent immediatly after the war ended and the Vietnamese refugees arrived locally inlarge numbers here in So Cal. I remember back then reading SLA Marshall's Three Battles, probably the first official Army sanctioned Historical work written on Vietnam, done in the same manner as his Night Drop or Pork Chop Hill.

Okay, I doubled checked and the "10,000 Day War" version is the one you want.  The "Television History" version is the PBS version which is biased against our involvment in the war.  The "Vietnam - The 10,000 Day War" is not.  It is purely factual, and gives a good honest perspective.

Ken

I have seen both series. One was put out by PBS, and one by the CBC, IIRC. And both tend to use the same footage, interview many of the same people, and present very similar outlooks. One is more biased than the other in my view but I can not recall which offhand. I have not seen either in years. I Know that my viewpoint is certainly skewered by the Vietnam Vets that I have met or served with. And being the types of soldiers that they were, either draftees, or volunteers, career or in and out, their firsthand perspectives spoken soldier to soldier were often quite different than what you see on these shows. They inspired a hunger in me to do lots of reading on the war. But then again I always had an interest to read on it as an adolescent immediatly after the war ended and the Vietnamese refugees arrived locally inlarge numbers here in So Cal. I remember back then reading SLA Marshall's Three Battles, probably the first official Army sanctioned Historical work written on Vietnam, done in the same manner as his Night Drop or Pork Chop Hill.

stikpusher

Watch that DVD set then to get a good view of the other side's outlook Shell. You will get plenty of their point of view in it. I always felt that this particular documentary series was biased towards the Communist's and Anti War views. I dont recall seeing too many guys from the US military on their who were talking about the things that were done right by the US Military. Of course there were mistakes made, but there were also tings done right. It perpetuates the standard myth that Tet was a Communist victory, etc.

That SA-2 is a big kit on the transporter. I presume that you are building the 1/35 Trumpeter kit?

I'm sorry, did I reference the wrong set? I have so many I may have. I thought this one was the right one.  Maybe the one I was thinking of was "Vietnam - A Television History".  It was also a box set that originally came out on VHS then later on DVD.  Same situation, the DVD is missing some chapters not included on the VHS set.

Ken

Shellback

Thats a good list of kits Ken . I'm still getting what info i can about the conflict . I have that DVD set you mentioned . My son gave it too me . He's now over in Afghanistan with USAF .I read your bio about your dad . The F-105 is one of my favorites , actually all of those century fighters where cool ! I suppose that the Afgan war will be another war we will ponder in the future . Right now i wonder about it .I'm building the SA-2 and transport now , in NVA markings . It might help me obtain some kind of insight into the other sides outlook .

Thank you for the compliment.  I have been studying about the Vietnam War for some time now.  It was quite complicated.  There were many infuences and interests.

I agree with you about the century fighters, they are one of my favorite aircrafts.  Back when beauty and performance were rolled up together!

I am sure you are very proud of your son!  I have the upmost respect for anyone who serves in the armed forces.  It is something I wish I had done when I was young enough to do so.

Ken

Watch that DVD set then to get a good view of the other side's outlook Shell. You will get plenty of their point of view in it. I always felt that this particular documentary series was biased towards the Communist's and Anti War views. I dont recall seeing too many guys from the US military on their who were talking about the things that were done right by the US Military. Of course there were mistakes made, but there were also tings done right. It perpetuates the standard myth that Tet was a Communist victory, etc.

That SA-2 is a big kit on the transporter. I presume that you are building the 1/35 Trumpeter kit?

Thats a good list of kits Ken . I'm still getting what info i can about the conflict . I have that DVD set you mentioned . My son gave it too me . He's now over in Afghanistan with USAF .I read your bio about your dad . The F-105 is one of my favorites , actually all of those century fighters where cool ! I suppose that the Afgan war will be another war we will ponder in the future . Right now i wonder about it .I'm building the SA-2 and transport now , in NVA markings . It might help me obtain some kind of insight into the other sides outlook .

Chrisk-k

Although I've been interested in WWII for my entire life, I've only recently got interested in the Vietnam War.  I'm reading a book (Days of Valor) about what happened in '67-'68 (before the Tet Offensive) and I am totally confused!

The area of operation by the 199th Light Infantry Brigade described in the book is just above Saigon.  I know that Saigon fell in '75. So, was the North Vietnamese Army so close to Saigon in '67? Does it mean that most of Vietnam was controlled by the Vietcong in '67?  I always thought that in '67-'68 the front line was around the DMZ in the middle of Vietnam.  

One of the best documentaries I have watched on the subject of the Vietnam War is the box set “Vietnam: The Ten Thousand Day War”.  It is unbiased and gives a complete history from the time starting in WWII (when Japan invaded) to after the fall of South Vietnam.  The full version came out on 6 VHS tapes, there is a DVD version but a few of the chapters are left out.  You can still get the VHS version on eBay at a decent price if you shop around for it.  (There is one there now for $48).

On the subject of modeling for the Vietnam War, I personally plan on building one of every aircraft the USAF had used in support of the Vietnam War.  Here is a list I have put together:

Ken

LOL . You know i was woundering if you had someone do that up for you .

Talk to Ordie. Compliment him. He did it up for me. Otherwise I'd be a slicksleeve here   I can research and find stuff online like a Honey Badger, but computer graphic arts are not my forte here

Stik , i recall you saying you werent into having G.B. badges in your signature .looks like you've been busy .Tell you what , they look reaaly cool the way you have them all organized . Looks great .

Could,nt have said it better--TANKER-builder

Read all you can about the 1st. Cavalry

stikpusher

Most companies make the standard USAF camo colors of Dark Green 34079, Medium Green 34102, Tan 30219, and Light Gray 36622. I am partial to Model Master ...

Most companies make the standard USAF camo colors of Dark Green 34079, Medium Green 34102, Tan 30219, and Light Gray 36622. I am partial to Model Master and  then Polly Scale for color fidelity. Gunze's are pretty good too. Tamiya does not make any matches in their line up.

I ordered my TF-100 from Hannants today. It was the only place I could find it. Also ordered (gulp!) the fancy PE set from Eddie.

I'm a little frustrated that my book hasn't come yet; "Bury Us Upside Down", but should be any day.

Then of course the big question: whats the best SEA paint set?

I only swam in a track once at Ft Benning. There was only a few inches of freeboard between the top deck and the water level in the pond. I am glad that was my only time. Not a comfortable secure feeling.

Check this one out. You really have to watch your entry angle and load distribution. I'll bet the driver was starting to sweat a little.

Yup, FMC. My Cousin worked there for may years until he retired.

Rob Gronovius

I should also mention that the trim vane acts like a bow of the ship, keeping the nose of the 113 from wanting to run below the water surface (submarining), which would be bad if that occured. The Bradley series also had a trim vane on earlier models, but the Army decided later versions were too heavy to swim and removed the swim barrier from them.

Rob, the Scorpion turreted version was used from the mid 70's to the early 90's. (sorry, can't find definitive dates). In hindsight, yes, I should have nabbed that kit. The Tamiya kit doesn't represent the canvas boot either, my one was made with tissue and tape. The Jerry can trays are a local mod

I think swimming the FSV would have been a hair-raising experience, as the turret added some two tons to the weight. I seem to recall reading that a trials vehicle sank after they traversed the turret while under way. There's a picture somewhere of a canvas "dam" which had to be erected around the radiator grilles for swimming operations, so I imagine there wouldn't have been much freeboard (scary sight from the driver's position).

Further on "trim vanes", I believe the LAV has one which slides out from the underside of the "nose" and the AAVP7A1 has a "flip out" type.

I should also mention that the trim vane acts like a bow of the ship, keeping the nose of the 113 from wanting to run below the water surface (submarining), which would be bad if that occured. The Bradley series also had a trim vane on earlier models, but the Army decided later versions were too heavy to swim and removed the swim barrier from them.

Thank you for the information. My friends Gary and Bob were both army infantry, Bob spent his time carrying the big gun.

Gary suffers from exposure to Agent Orange.

My friend Jim was an airman.

My friend Keith was a helicopter pilot.

I had an Academy CH-46 but I gave it to Fermis because it's 1/48. It was a gift from Namrednef.

IF I built a Vietnam model, it'd no doubt be a fast mover. Considering a TF-100.

bondoman

Ignorant question, but what is a trim vane and why is it called that? Seems unique to the -113?

I get where it is from studying the photos- looks like the big rectangular thing on the front.

EDIT: ok a little Wiki work and it has to do with running in deep water, kind of like a dam. But then the article mentions "swimming". No way this thing could actually float, right?

Here's a video of someone actally swimming the 113 (disregard the person posting the video trying to force the name "Gavin" on the 113).

Yes, you can build a standard Academy M113A1/A2 (less interior) right out of the AFV Club FSV box. The only things it is missing would be regular version decals and AFV Club replaced the poor Academy kit tracks with their superior individual link tracks. The kit gives you a bunch of stuff for the parts box.

The all new F sprue adds the side floatation extensions (just styrofoam filled sheet metal), new roof and many detail parts like the rear caged turn signals. I don't remember if there were front caged turn signals or not.

You get the Scorpion turret and two suspension sprues (just to take a couple turret pieces off the suspension sprue). The rest of the pieces go into the parts box.

There isn't a canvas cover for the main gun tube. The one I built, I just went with the straight metal barrel. If I ever get around to building my second kit I'd add it with tissue paper.

I don't know about Australian M113 based vehicles, but on US vehicles, there aren't trays for the 5 gallon cans. It's just a little metal lip that catches the bottom edge of the metal 5 gallon can and the can is strapped horizontally. The tray is probably a better system because newer plastic 5 gallon cans don't have a lip to catch and are always coming loose.

It's a cool little kit, I'd have grabbed it even without the metal gun tube. The 76mm would be too easy to scratchbuild with styrene tubing or find a resin or an aluminum AM barrel.

When was the Scorpion turreted version in use?

My first cousin was in Vietnam around 1969 and commanded a 113.  I believe he told me that part was there to help them ford streams.  He added that, of course, it didn't work as planned, lol.

Gary

Ignorant question, but what is a trim vane and why is it called that? Seems unique to the -113?

I get where it is from studying the photos- looks like the big rectangular thing on the front.

EDIT: ok a little Wiki work and it has to do with running in deep water, kind of like a dam. But then the article mentions "swimming". No way this thing could actually float, right?

Rob, I wanted the AFV Club kit, but could never find it here (AFV Club are kinda scarce here in Aus). The Scorpion turret looks a whole lot meaner than the Saladin turret.

The one time I found the kit in a shop, the (metal) gun barrel was missing from the kit, so I didn't buy it. Being based on the Academy M113A1 kit, I am guessing it would have been a little more accurate, but I have never had a good look at the kit. IIRC, the AFV Club kit had indy-link tracks, so that would have been a plus.

If I recall correctly, after the FSV's were upgraded with the Scorpion turrets, they were redesignated "MRV"s (Medium Reconnaissance Vehicle/s). They also differ in having the bulged side extensions (flotation tanks?) and "wedged" trim vane compared to the original FSV.

Very nice, what are your thoughts on the AFV Club (reboxed Academy M113A1/A2 kit) FSV? I thought overall the fit wasn't as great as the Tamiya kit, but I don't know a lot about the vehicle to be able to judge it on accuracy.

stikpusher

Phil, what mods and additions does the FSV need?

I'll say that I didn't want to attempt to fully accurise the kit, and my mods were mostly eyeballed, not measured. Tamiya based the kit on their earlier "straight" M113 and the FSV is based on an M113A1, so there are a couple of visible M113A1 mods like the lip extension on the trim vane and the external fire extinguisher box. In addition, the FSV also has a hinged, fold-down extension on the trim vane. Note that this is slightly shorter at the left end to clear the headlight cluster.

Note the turn-signal indicators, which I believe were required for driving on domestic (Australian) roads.

As it stands, the kit turret also needs an antenna base on the right hand side - the kit only provides one for the left side but this is easy enough to duplicate. Because I left the skirts off, I added the bolt-holes and the under-sponson armour using plastic card.

At the back end, I extended the bilge-pump outlet, which is just a nub in the kit, added trays and straps for the jerry cans and added the catch/release for the ramp door (inside the loop of the tow cable in this pic.

I really like the weathering and faded paint look. Very nice work on M113 FSV

Phil, what mods and additions does the FSV need?

stikpusher

I have a few Vietnam subjects in the works right now... a 1/48 RF-4C, a 1/35 Light Seal Support Craft, a 1/300 USS Ramsey FFG, a 1/35 Aussie M113 FSV...

The M113 FSV is a nice little kit. There's a few simple mods/additions which can be done to make it a little more accurate, but it comes up nicely.

Just be warned that Academy decals are very hit and miss.... if there is a company that I highly recommend aftermarket decals, "just in case", for their kits it will be Academy. I am hoping that either Trumpeters or Eduards upcoming MiG-21-F13 kits, the first version used by the VPAF, will have those markings. The F-13 was the early hot rod version of the -21 like this one that the USAF "acquired".

Cool.  I can't find it at my favorite OHS, but now I know what to keep my eyes open for ...  thanks!

Academy's original 1/48 MiG-21PF comes with VPAF markings.

stikpusher

Get the Hobbyboss MiG-17...

Yeah, the Hobbyboss Mig-17F Fresco D is the kit I've been eyeing.  It's the only 1:48 I've found that comes with the VPAF markings.  I'd like to do a 1:48 Mig-21 in VPAF markings also, but can't find one with the right decals.  I haven't really looked for VPAF AM decals for one yet, though.

Get the Hobbyboss MiG-17...

Let's see, 'Nam kits in the stash ... All 1:48, unless otherwise noted:  Tamiya Skyraider, Revell F-8, Italeri A-4 E/F/G, Revell A-6, Hobby Boss A-7A, Hasegawa F-4J (Showtime 100), Revell/Monogram F-4J (Mig Ace), and holding place for (I hope) future acquisitions:  1:72 AM F-4J, and 1:72 Hasegawa F-4B.  Besides more Spooks, I'm planning to add a Mig-17 in VPAF markings, and a C-2 Greyhound, (and an E-2, and an RA-5, and a S2F, and ... you get the picture ).

Also, I have to count my finished 1:800 USS Kitty Hawk.  I started off with the intent of modelling mostly US Navy and IJN WWII aircraft, which subjects fill out most of the rest of my stash (and comprise the better part of it).  I should have seen the Vietnam kits coming from day one ...

Yes, my first modern tank kit as an adult was the old Tamiya M60A1. The PX had stacks of those kits. But I did modify mine a bit in accordance with an IPMS Quarterly article from about 1978 or so.  And painted it in a MERDC camo scheme using the Pactra 'namels that the PX sold, Dark Olive Drab in place of Forest Green and Flat Green in place of Light Green for the Verdant scheme that most of our tanks had in 1984 at Ft Polk...

And this thread has inspired me to start another Vietnam subject, the Revellogram 1/48 F-100D which I will be doing in an Aluminum Lacquered 1965 scheme out of Tan Son Nhut.

As a child, the Vietnam War did not effect me. My parents were recent immigrants from Holland and I had no relatives who were US citizens during the war (beyond my parents and siblings). By the time of the US withdrawal, I was 8 years old (about the same age as my youngest son). I assume I was probably as clueless about the Vietnam War as he is about the current wars, and he has a brother who served in A-stan.

As a modeler, one of my earliest kits was the Monogram M48 Patton tank kit. I remember the Love Bug markings. As a young adult, current armor was my draw and the current armor of the day was Vietnam era tanks and APCs.

My first high quality armor kits had to have been the Tamiya M48A3 and M113 APC built during the early 1980s. By 1983, my main interest turned towards building armor that I had used during my budding military career. By default, that armor was Vietnam era, but many received modern camouflage paint schemes I slapped on right over the original OD green and white star finish. I didn't worry about the differences between versions as a modeler back then; an M48 was an M48 and an M113 was an M113. But in actuality, both the M48A3 and M113 were earlier versions than the M48A5 and M113A2 I crewed.

I still have an old Monogram Patton tank that received a camouflage paint scheme over the original finish. Of course, that kit wasn't painted originally. I applied the white stars over the bare olive plastic with little more than silver and black "detail" paintings. I received a paint job that was supposed to represent my M48A5 I rode in 1985.

It's very intersting to how nearly 50 years after it began, this is still a very emotional subject... but as said before a very rich modeling subject area

I have a few Vietnam subjects in the works right now... a 1/48 RF-4C, a 1/35 Light Seal Support Craft, a 1/300 USS Ramsey FFG, a 1/35 Aussie M113 FSV...

Tim , i have no more to add ...........if i did i might go off on a rant and break the rules . I pushed the envelope a couple of times already but i see my post are still up so i guess i squeaked by ,I dont know how to bring this thread around to talking about models since the original poster said he was confused and seemed to want some answers .

Maybe a new thread about models of the Nam era is needed .

I'm done here , Its been interesting reading for me . I've learned something about the feelings that are still out there about that war and how it has and still does affect us .

Thanks for all of the info on the books also .

Later bros.

willieandjoe

Yes, strange thing is that the draft was probably the fairest thing that could have happened, which is why nobody liked it. I drew a 82 my first year of eligibility, but it was 1974 and nobody was being drafted. Certainly at that point I was happy about that.

I didn't ever seek a deferment, but I did manage to get reclassified 1AO, which was a non combat status whatever that means, on religious grounds (I'm a pacifist in faith).

 

The Feb 1972 lottery (men born in 1953) was the last one where anybody was actually called.  By that time student deferments had  been discontinued, but with the draw down not nearly as many guys got called (plus it depended on your local draft board). 

I was one of the oddballs at the time because while other guys were sweating out the lottery,  I volunteered and was accepted to Navy Aviation Officer Candidate School during my junior year in college.

After I failed a subsequent flight physical  at Pennsacola and got a release from my commitment, the Navy reclassified me as 4-F with the draft board, even though I would have been able to pass the Army physical.  They said it was their way of thanking me for volunteering while the war was still on.

Mark

Hello,

I want to thank everyone who has participated in the thread so far. As we know, Vietnam can be a difficult subject. For the most part, the conversation here has been moderate and civil. However, there have been a couple of politically charged statements, and I want to remind everyone that politics are off-limits. As Aaron posted in the Forum Rules, political commentary will get you banned.

Also, swearing is not tolerated, no matter how innocent it may seem. Don't use symbols to try to bypass the nannybot.

Finally, it seems that Chrisk-k's initial question has been answered. Let's steer the thread back toward modeling and away from the atmosphere and philosophy surrounding Vietnam.

Thanks,

TK

Shell, one more book that I recommend is Unheralded Victory, by Mark Woodruff- a former Marine and Vietnam Vet. I read it while prepping to go overseas in late 2004. I think you may find it an enlightening read.

Know i've got a good list of books to read  . If i read enough of them i might understand what the Vietnam war was all about .Being a vet never gave me any answers . As far as taking ground from the enemy , securing it , building a fire base , suffering losses ...............only to eventually relinquish the hard won soil back to the enemy .................i just never figured that one out . We would fire round after round into the jungle , only to find some blown up bags of rice  . A cruiser and its crew used to blow up stashes of rice ? Those were the missions that made me wonder what we were accomplishing . Other missions were much more satisfieing , like blasting out an L.Z. into the jungle so that Marines could be evacuated . After that one we went back to Yokosuka , Japan to have the barrels on the tripple 6" replaced . We had been firing round after round for a couple of hrs to secure the perimeter around those Marines . Heard of danger close ? That was a most satisfieing accomplishment since i was a part of the gun fire team .

When i came home and found a 8 to 5 job i turned my back on that war . Being a Nam vet wasnt something i denied or was ashamed of . But i didnt talk about it .Even a good friend of mine that served over there after being drafted into the Army woudnt easily talk about his experiences with me . Only twice did he loosen up (with the help of many a beer ) and bring up a couple of his battle experiences , some that haunted him .  

Ok ..............

USS Oklahoma City on the cover of life magazine . Note the beautiful  sand beaches .

Shellback

What ? I didnt know there was anything about Vietnam at a college .......................

I guess that would depend on when and where you went to college. I went to college from 1982-1986 on Long Island, NY. One of the history classes I took was on the Vietnam War. Among the things we studied was PBS' Vietnam: A Television History and Accuracy in Media's Television's Vietnam (basically their response to the PBS series narrated by Charlton Heston).

Vietnam War movies were "in" at the time with Uncommon Valor, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket, First Blood, Missing in Action coming out during this time.

I do not know how long they offered this course. The semester I took it, one of the ROTC instructors was a Vietnam vet and audited the course. He enjoyed it.

I've had very good experiences with Vietnam vets. The man who taught me how to drive an M48 tank was the last Spec 5 I ever saw. My platoon sergeant in Germany was a Vietnam vet (he eventually became the HQs Company first sergeant when I became the HQs Company XO).

The last Vietnam vet I remember serving with was GEN Eric Shinseki when he was a major general and commander of the First Cavalry Division when I was a tank company commander and later a HQs company commander. This would have been 1994-95 time frame.

on the topic of good books that give an insite to the op. here is a list of some good reading material.

Fire support base vietnam.

The patrol of coral.

they shown the fspb's were set up in a know enemy location, mostly enemy logisitc areas and would provide long range fire support for daily patrols out of the base. At night the enemy would try to over run and attack these bases but having so much fire power with air support on call the enemy would suffer many loses. often not being able to do correct body counts as the enemy would carry their wounded and dead away.  Unfortunatly these bases like the taking of hill 937, after time were packed up and abandoned so the enemy would walk right back into the area. It was a war that was measured by body count for the first time in any war.

Some other good books i have read are:-

Shadows on the wall. ( special forces)

The tiger man of Vietnam. ( special forces capt. Barry P.)

The killing zone. (g.i.s on patrol)

If i die in a combat zone. (g.i.s on patrol)

The tunnels of Cu Chi. (good enemy pov)

The pollitics of agent orange.

Where they lay. (us dig teams searching for mia pilots)

The air war over vietnam.( great referance pics)

That sounds like a good read Ordie . I'll look see if my local library can get it .

I imagine that this is an eye-opening discussion for some.  It is for me, too, in some ways.  Many books have been suggested, and I will be reading at least a few of them.  I suggest, also, Homecoming:  When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam,  by Bob Greene, to round-out the topic.

So the dispute over the Vietnam war continues i see . Brings back memories of the arguments i heard about that war already . Still makes me slightly sick to read some of the comments that are made about that war  . Some able bodied male u.s. citizens were able to avoid the war , others of us didnt have a choice . Like i said before ..."Maybe it was a bad war , maybe it was a good war , either way it was still our war !

group build please.!!  I have regained my interest in modeling through a recent interest in learning all i can about the war. 

What ? I didnt know there was anything about Vietnam at a college .......................

Pick up a copy of "Where the Domino Fell" by Olson and Roberts. It's a good overall history of US involvement in Vietnam from 1945 to the 1990s. There's a new (expensive) edition out, but earlier editions are available inexpensively in paperback. Maybe check a good used and/or college bookstore.

Matt Usher @ FSM

Shell, no worries my friend. It is still aways out in the future, and it will be another long term GB so time is on our side... except for the aging and life thing of course...

Pawel i forgot to tell you that i took a look at your Vietnam web site the other day and its a good looking site ! I was surprised to see the interest in that conflict .

Stik , i'm sorry man , but i dont want to say yes and then back like i did before . i felt bad for doing that . I really appreciate you offering to start a vietnam war g.b. my friend .

Especially at the speed I build these days...

No sweat. A modeller just has to be patient!

Ok Pawel. I know that I  am not planning to start it until after my Korean War GB ends next summer. I will put out the appropriate feelers when the date draws near

I'm in! I even have a web page devoted to Vietnam War!

Have a nice day

Paweł

So who here is up for a Vietnam Group Build in the future?

Stik and old ordie .......well said .......with your last post you have made me feel much better about being here ! Like old ordie when i returned i to the states via S.F. (hippy central )(on a ship to Hunters point) the anamosity towards servicemen in that town was apparent . Not as bad as it would get later . I have deep feelings from those times and i always will . Amazing how this country has made such an about face towards our servicemen .

Good to be here with some fellow servicemen and vets !

I like modelling because it allows me to connect with the men and women who have made history, for better or worse.  People make history, not machines, but modelling their machines brings me a tiny bit closer to them.  It's the history ...

In June, 1971, I took my one-and-only cat shot, in a C-2, off the Kitty Hawk on Yankee Station.  I was the better part of one line period from completeing the entire cruise, but my Exchange privileges were set to expire in a week, so they had to send me away.  I spent three of what rank among the truly best days of my life in the P.I., at Clark AFB (which was a beautiful place), off the duty radar, waiting for transit stateside.  To make a long story a little shorter, on arriving in the States, I took a bus from Travis to San Francisco International, where I caught a PSA jet to San Diego.  When I got to the airport, I ducked in the first restroom I came to, went into a stall and changed out of my uniform into a set of civies I'd had on the ship, shoes and all.  It was the very first opportunity I'd had to do so after re-entering the civilian world.

I did not do this because I was ashamed of my uniform, or of anything I had done, because I wasn't - I did it because, at that time, groups of people sometimes roamed the airports of our country, throwing blood, ***, urine and garbage on men in uniform as they came upon them, following them and chanting insults at them ('baby killer' was a favorite).  Especially in SF.  I just wanted to sit in the lounge, have a drink and wait for my flight home to San Diego.  I didn't want to have to put up with those people, not that day.

In college afterwards, I learned that it was simply best not to mention being a vet at school, or even in social situations.  There was a serious political/cultural divide.  Literally half of everybody, in those days, was strongly opposed the war.  Some, especially at school (but everywhere/anywhere, really),  felt compelled to take their anger over the issue out on vets - because we were available, I guess - usually by way of a highly-charged, personal verbal assault, right out in public.  Few people would take your part in those days, and many simply didn't want to know you if they found out you were a 'Nam vet.  I kid you not.  I just wanted to go to school and recreate, like a normal college kid.  So, mum's the word (though I never denied it, if asked, just never offered it).  As it turned out, my friends in college were all ex-GI's ...

Over the years, as I established and reared a family, it became less and less socially acceptable to verbally assault 'Nam vets.  Even the stereotypical homicidal-maniac 'Nam vet villian, so common in the 70's and early '80's on TV and in the movies, disappeared from our culture.  The past twenty years or so, seeing the American people receive their Dessert Storm,  Afghanistan/Iraq vets back with the honor and respect they deserve has pleased me greatly - more than I can say - and I thought we were past all that.

I am proud of my brother 'Nam vets, all of them, not only because they are mine, but because they served their country faithfully through extraordinarily difficult circumstances.

I, for one, am simply not going to keep it to myself anymore.  When it comes up, it comes up.  I had thought this forum a place where I could do that, where there might even be some mild interest in it, besides trading modelling knowlege and technique (absorbing it, really, on my part).  I still think it so, mostly.

Doug,

My son's middle name was given after his uncle Paul, who was killed in action in Vietnam.  He was in the 101st AB, same as your cousin.  The helicopter he was riding in was shot down.  It burned.  I  lost relatives, friends, shipmates, drinking buddies, neighbors, acquaintances, HS team mates, and on and on ...  to the war Vietnam.  None of them would have wanted me to suffer through the rest of my life for it, or hold it against anyone else.

I may be 'frivilous' when talking about liberty in the P.I., but never about war.

Further, please understand that I was not drafted into it - I enlisted.  Serving was a privilege, and I knew it (though, at the time, I didn't realize just how much of a privilege it truly was).  I served with WWII vets and Korea vets, side-by-side, day-in and day-out.  That is special to me now in a way I can't describe.  Besides that, I got to man a flight deck in combat, and it was the grandest adventure of my life.

If I may (hopefully) offer some constructive advice:  I skip a thread item from time-to-time on this forum because I can tell from the title that it wouldn't interest me.  I'd do so, also, if I thought - from the title of the thread - that a subject might cause me an adverse emotional reaction.

Peace.

Mark

You said that much better I did.

Shellback

He served , he was my brother . This is a model building forum .....true . But i would hope that this hobby would bring us together to discuss  more than just how to glue and paint plastic.

Your service brings us first hand knowledge on how to model some particular items: yours from time at sea on a carrier at a particular place and a particular time in history; Redleg, Heavy Arty and Hans on  many years in Field Artillery; Rob for a career in Armor, the late Berny for his superb knowledge of the F-4 Phantom, Tarn Ship for more sea borne air wing experience; Bish for a UK military career perspective across the globe in the service of the Queen (sounds cool doesn't it?); BBIII, GregBear, and Dattilio for the Marine Corps knowledge... and many others than I can list easily off the top of my head here. That firsthand knowledge makes for better and more accurate historical models for those here who care to listen and use that knowledge... and also some great stories gained in the acquisition of that knowledge. It was not learned by osmosis.... Keep up the fire boys  

Here's some modeling input-I think all of us have Poloraid or 35mm pics of aircraft/vehicles we saw in all our deployments.

I am sorry for ANY loss of life in any conflict BUT wars aren't fought by elderly politicians. It's always the youth that are lost. Most vets became vets ot the age of 18 or so. We didn't become vets at retirement age.

I lost 2 close friends/highschool classmates  in RVN doing their part to win the hearts & minds. Their names are on the wall.

My BFF was in the 101st. Wounded 3 times, since has had 3 knee replacements  due to THAT action! We do vent to each other time to time. I guess it's just a "brother" thing.

As for the Iraq/Afghanistan returnees-I have seen more & strange wounds/disabilities from these vets than from us RVN vets. IED's I guess. I work with some of these fine young men. They're like us old guys-did what they had to do,walk tall.

Sorry if my rant took up so much space.

Be safe my brothers

I suspect that our experiences in Iraq were vastly different. I was there in '05 when the insurgency in Anbar was really amping up.

Yupper, they were.. I was there at the beginning, another "Desert Storm"-type fight, with force-on-force, set-piece battles... There were some guerilla-types involved, rather than a full-blown insurgency, it was more a re-enforcing of regulars by militia-types, with the Fedayeen Saddam the most heavily involved.. They didn't give us much trouble in the "tooth", but raised hell with the "tail", (where I was)...  Still, we managed to keep the bassiges off us and roll 'em up for the most part, although they gave us a real headache and we had to stop and really root 'em out for a couple weeks... Lost a few folks during that time, but we gave more than we got, for damn-sure.. Until they turnd sewer-rat and holed up in the villages and especially up in the cities like Tikrit after we took Baghdad...

By the time I left, it seemed we'd pretty much secured the AO, although there was definate insurgency brewing up fast by the end of May up north in the Sunni Triangle..  I got hit in May and sent  to Germany before the entire country blew up...  I didn't deploy again, and was medically retired in '06 after 29 and a half years..

But I was getting concerened with the "Firebase mentality" that was getting all too prevailent with FOBs popping up everywhere...

He served , he was my brother . This is a model building forum .....true . But i would hope that this hobby would bring us together to discuss  more than just how to glue and paint plastic.

And this thread can easily be brought back to a modeling theme. The Vietnam War is a fantastic area to model covering the gamut of subjects from WWII retreads such as the C-47 and B-26 to the latest Atomic/Space age technology such as USS Enterprise or the SR-71. But all there to support the oldest weapon of all, the guy on the ground. All available in various modeling subjects representing both military sides.

tankboy51

 If you vets want to share stories fine, take it to another forum. This is not the place and it is well off the topic

No it is not out of place, nor is it entirely off topic. True, this is a modeling forum, a large portion of which is military in focus. Sometimes, it is important to remember the people behind those inanimate objects that we build and the efforts and sacrifices they make. This topic started off with a question about the nature of the war in Vietnam. These stories that vets of that war are sharing give a flavor to the nature of that conflict.

As others have said, I am sorry for your families loss and I honor your cousins sacrifice. But no one in this conversation is making the war in Vietnam seem frivolous.

Dadgum Doug...pretty harsh there... Most of us talk about military subjects all the time relating to builds.

I for one don't talk about my 20+ years of military service much, but hearing what these guys have to say is not only history, but lends credibility to questions they may answer in relation to models.

Just imagine if we had Heinz Barr or Eric Hartman on here saying..."yeah my aircraft had purple dodadds on it, back during the 1942 campaign"  I doubt one person would say booo to that.

And it was not off topic at all as the OP asked for some history about Vietnam...not how to build a model about it.

He was my cousin, not my brother.   I believe that this forum is for modeling discussions.  As a non vet myself, at that point in the discussion, anyone else commenting is pretty much out of it.  If you vets want to share stories fine, take it to another forum. This is not the place and it is well off the topic

I appreciate your service in any case.  My family has had many members who served in various branches though out our nations history.  My brother was a Capt. in the Air Force at the end of the conflict.   Where did I put a derogatory label on anyone?  If I implied any negative comments it was to the leaders who got us into this and kept us there.

I guess that not all I had to say about it.

Doug

And among today's vets as well. At work a couple weeks ago I was babysitting a bad guy at the hospital. One of the ER personnel and I vaguely recognized one another and started talking. Turns out that we had served together some 15 years before before he moved on to another unit. We spoke of our overseas times after and people we knew. As soon as the shared connection was made, I found an old brother right there.

Nothing frivlous at all. Just a bond that is hard to explain.

Frivolity ? Yes , people die in wars . You lost your brother and thats sad . But to call the exchange of stories between vietnam vets "frevolity" is done with little understanding of the comradery that is felt amongst us vets . Understand that we the vets are not the ones you should put derogatory labels on ! Understand that it was those leaders in Washington D.C. that got us involved and then ran the whole mess from D.C. . We vets joined or were drafted . We did our duty . We have stories to share . It helps us vets to know that there are others who share our experiences . Out of respect for your brother i do feel humbled for your loss .

Carl

Doug,

I am truly sorry for your loss.  I hope you and your family find peace about it.

Mark

One more thing, I do not hate the VC or any of the Vietnamese people, they were fighting foreign control of their nation.  It needed to be unified.  They were pawns to the politicians on both sides.

That's all  I have to say about that.

Doug

Gee whiz, I sure wish I could join in in all the frivolity about the VietNam  war.  However, in 1970, my cousin was killed over there.   He was 19 years old.  He was in the 101st , and was killed  within his first two weeks over there.  I, myself, was on the verge of being drafted.  At that point my whole family thought that we had given that worthless cause all it needed.  I stayed out by keeping by student deferment up.

BTW the military lied for 2 months about how he was murdered, yes, he was shot in his sleep on an overnight patrol, when someone fell asleep on watch.  They were all killed.  It was only when other men caught the VC who killed them that they got the story.  They had their weapons on them.

The whole conflict was one mess, we shouldn't have been there.

I'm going to stop now, the conflict still hurts to talk about in the abstraction.

Eddie was a neat guy and he got me really really interested in modeling.

Doug

You guys are cracking me up...I have heard my Dad tell the same stories for years about his time on the Saratoga and his port calls.  Keep it up...brings back lots of warm memories.

Good stories guys . You realize this is actually real history we are talking about . Our history of a war that our nation was ashamed of ! I'm not ashamed of it ! Ok , ok, i digress .

Subic bay and the *** river ........one thing aout that *** river you always knew where you were ....the smell was unforgettable ! I never tossed coins in it ............maybe put some other stuff in it ? There were so many binjo ditches around that place i dont know how i managed not to fall into more than the one that i found with my clean liberty whites uniform one night ! I had to throw it away ......yuck ! OMG what a *** hole that place was ! OMG i had some good times there !

Take care Bros . !

01JeepXJ

... As was said, good times,bad times but it was OUR times...

Old Ordie,Shellback-couldn't agree more! Dong Ba Thin 7-69/8-70. Read my bio. The locals didn't like us but wanted what we had. They worked on our compound by day, sent us mortar/rockets by night.

The Aussies were GREAT! STILL are. It wasn't even their fight.

The ROK's kicked some serious a** for us in our area. Much used/under appreciated.

I was there when our flight crew's were told to take a week's worth of stuff & their pillows,strip all U.S. insignia from their flight suits, paint over any designation on their aircraft. Cambodia.

As was said, good times,bad times but it was OUR times.

Be safe, Bro's.

We spent many a week with the carriers up at "Yankee"  . Besides NGFS we provided fleet air defense with out Talos missiles . Good ole Subic bay . Was the main street paved when you were there ? It was either mud or dust back in the 60's . I tried to drink beer for beer with some old salt Ozzie merchant marines in Singapore .......man was i stupid for attempting that !

Good times , bad times , but it was our times .

Thanks

Shellback

... Strange war we participated in ...

Sure was.

About the Ozzies, seems like there were small groups of 'em tucked in just about everywhere in 'Nam.  We had an Ozzie can with us on Yankee, December, '70 through January, '71 or so, along with our regulars.  We spent New Years' Eve, '70, in Subic with them.  Some of my better liberty stories concern drinking with Ozzies, LOL ...  I was friends for a good number of years with a RAN helicopter pilot who was part of the Royal Australian Navy Helicopter Flight Vietnam (RANHFV).  They were integrated into the US Army 135th Assault Helicopter Company in-country, flying Hueys side-by-side with our boys in combat.  When he spoke of his American comrades of those days, he always did so lovingly ... especially those who didn't make it.

You take care, too, bro.

Hey Mark , i was served on the cruiser USS Oklahoma City . We did NGFS missions up and down the coast of VN 1964 thru 1966 .....30 month SEA deployment . Course it wasnt tuff ,being on a ship and all . We even went up the river to Saigon in 64 ............before the Tonkin gulf incident . Anyway my comment is about you thanking the Ozzies . We worked with a few Ozzie spotters on our NGFS missions . That took a while to get used to their accent , especially over a radio with the static . Interesting targets we fired at . On more than one mission we found out that our targets were water buffalo ! The Viet Cong used them for transporting supplies . We had a target count on the 6 inch turret with the silhouette of them critteres on it ! I forget how many we were up to before the captain said they had to be painted out before we headed to Hong Kong .Strange war we participated in .

Take care .

Chrisk-k

... I've only recently got interested in the Vietnam War.  I'm reading a book (Days of Valor) about what happened in '67-'68 (before the Tet Offensive) and I am totally confused! ...

Chris,

Don't feel bad about it ... I was totally confused about it when I was there.  Afterward, it took me 20 years of reading and watching generalized documentaries, such as The 10,000 Day War, before I had even half a handle on what had happened - decades long, non-conventional wars are kind of hard to follow by nature, I guess.

I've been lurking this thread, reading with interest.  All I know well, regarding particulars, is what I did and saw.  More bomb tonnage was dropped in SEA by U.S. forces than was dropped by all sides in WWII, combined.  And yet, we eventually pulled out, mission unaccomplished  ...  nothing conventional about it, that's for sure.  I was a human bomb-loading machine in '70-'71, sixteen hours a day, seven days a week, week-in and week-out, month-in, month-out.  I once asked one of our pilots what we were bombing (our missions were 90% 'Interdiction' of the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos, and that's all we non-aircrew knew).  He looked around, as if to be certain no one else could hear, leaned into my ear, and said, in a whisper, "Trees."  And that about sums it up. 

Lam Son 719/Dewey Canyon II, known in the media at the time as 'The Laotian Incursion', was the only time my air wing (CVW-11) was involved in anythying like a conventional, stand-up fight of any kind during that whole cruise (one battle, really - it depended which side of the border between South Vietnam and Laos you were fighting on as to which 'battle' you were in - I got my battle star for Lam Son 719, which was the Laotian part).  Mostly, though, it was 'where are they", and "where'd they go" kind of stuff, on a large scale.  The typical Vietnamese was NOT on our side.

As for you Afgfanistan/Iraq vets (thank you for your service, BTW), regarding comparisons with Vietnam, all wars are different, one-from-another, of course, but I knew getting in was going to be a hell of a lot easier than getting out, and that none of the locals were really going to be your friend, and I told my wife so at the time.  Understand that the 'Nam vets around you generally 'get it'.  'Nuff said.

I have to say that, politics and ideology aside, I have nothing but respect for the NVA, NVPAF, etc.  They were tough, they were disciplined, they were committed, and they prevailed against two first-world nations (and friends - personal thanks to the Ozzies and the ROKs) in a contest of arms.  Giap should be ranked among the top generals of the 20th Century, if for no other reason than he knew what he had to do to win against overwhelming military force, and he did it.

One last anecdote - We went for five days r 'n r in Hong Kong, about halfway through the deployment.  First thing I saw when I stepped off the launch onto dry land was an English language newspaper in a stand on the dock.  The headline read, "U.S. Denies Laos Bombing" (this was before Lam Son, which made major news around the world).  At the time, I felt like I was in the Twilight Zone.  Now, remembering, it just makes me smile ...

Mark (aka Old Ordie)

Edit - I'll be picking up a copy of Bury Us Upside Down: The Misty Pilots and the Secret Battle for the Ho Chi Mihn Trail, and reading it with great interest ... so, thanks for that. - end Edit

Read anything you can about the 1st. Cavalry

Hans von Hammer

Anyway, that's some of my story..  After I retired in '06, I still watched the news, and it astounded me that the reporting from Iraq was almost exactly the same as during Vietnam.. The mainstream-press just couldn't get their heads wrapped around that, after we destroyed an insurgent attack, killing damn-near all of 'em, they'd report that "one American Soldier was killed and more three wounded" or something like that, right?

But here's what'd p*ss me off.. They almost ALWAYS started the piece with, "A deadly day in Iraq.."... No mention of the fact that we took out 10-20 of the bad guys, just that we took some casualties... They made it sound like we lost every engagement if somebody got it, and damned if I didn't think it was 1966 or 1971 again...  (Dad was there, in-country during those years (fighting in his third war),  and mom & me ate dinner in front of the TV for a year, lol.. ) Militarily-speaking, our casualties 99% of the time were not "Heavy", "Moderate", and weren't "Light".. Militarily, they were insignificant, and remained that way... (Not to those close to the person who was KIA / WIA, but y'all know I mean..)  

Hans

You bring up some good points, and again, in many ways this really does highlight some of the similarities between Iraq/Afghanistan and Vietnam.

I suspect that our experiences in Iraq were vastly different. I was there in '05 when the insurgency in Anbar was really amping up. We got hammered pretty good while I was there. Sure, we killed a lot more than we had killed, but the thing is it was tough to tell how many of those we killed were legit bad guys and how many were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

By the time I got there, the insurgents, like the VC and NVA, had learned they could not stand toe to toe with us or they'd get slaughtered. So they didn't (minus one or two noteable occassions). They didn't engage us directly, so when we lost one or two or six or eight guys, odds are we were not killing any of the bad guys because they were long gone. That was the infuriating part of it. We were not fighting people, we were fighting IEDs and SVBIEDs and IDF. And mostly it was due to the same problem that we faced in Vietnam - we didn't want to go through the political pain to commit the totality of military forces needed to do the job...

bondoman

The Things They Carried is outstanding.

Yup that is a good one...

The Things They Carried is outstanding.

Ah Hans, one can always model figures. Those original SF guys really give some unconventional subjects in  terms of dress and equipment. Everything from native dress to WWII jungle camo, to modified issue stuff and foreign made clothing and weapons.

And some very valid points on the reporting for todays wars. I do have a feeling there were more than a few current ones influenced by those and the style of reporting from that war. I pretty much stopped watching the news reports out of there due to that style.

As for reading material. I have read more good books on this subject than I can easily recount. Novels and non fiction, the stuff is abundant. The 13th Valley, A Reckoning for Kings, Flight of the Intruder and Rolling Thunder  are some of the fiction works that I think are outstanding. In non fiction Bat 21, We Were Soldiers Once... and Young, The Raid, Thud Ridge, Phantom Soldiers (both volumes) and One Day in a Long War are certainly worth one's time to read.

All this talk on Vietnam stuff certainly has me inspired as well, and I am planning on running a Vietnam GB, but after I wrap up my Korean War one next July. I will start floating the interest balloons late next year.

B-17 Guy

bbrowniii:

 

In many ways, there are some parallels to be drawn between this scenario from the Vietnam era and what we face (faced) in Afghanistan and Iraq today. Not a one to one comparison by any stretch, but the same type of assymetric warfare that means there really is no 'front' - the enemy can, and will, attack anywhere, anytime.

 

I agree with this. I cant speak for afghanistan but iraq was very much like this, we even had locals coming in the wire and working for us. I asked once why we see so many differant people and was told that alot of the locals were being killed for working for us. I was in a transportation company that only hauled fuel from one base to the next, thats all we did.

Not a bad summarization... My time in the 'Stan was initially a 6-month deployment, as I was attached to an SF Group (no sneaky pete sh*t for me.. I was a "Bob from the FOB")... The locals were ALL hostile, regardless of who they supported... We were polite, we were professional, and we had a plan to kill everyone we met... I was with an Engineer Battalion, where our mission was mine-hunting...

Soviet mines, that is... The place was lousy with 'em, even after all those years since Ivan went home with his tail 'tween his legs.. Being a Chem-dawg, I got to go hunt the Grey-painted ones, if any were found... We blew mines in-place, either a MCLC or up-close with TNT and C-4,  but you cant do that with a freakin' VX-filled mine.. Those're nasty b*tches ya gotta do the old-fashoined way, and do it in MOPP-4.. Luckily, we didn't find any, and none were ever found as far as I know.. But I practiced a LOT..  There only has to be ONE mine in a mine-field for things to be a little sporty..

Never had a IED incident, the Tangos hadn't started that at that time...  But we found a LOT of AT-mines that damn-sure coulda found their way into the wrong hands..

Hiowever, I digress..

Iraq, in the beginning (I was the Ops-Sergeant in the 3rd ID NBCCC in March of '03).  We were in a classic, force-on-force, set-piece battle with Iraqi Army units, and we absolutely destroyed them (shades of '91.. Guess their commanders forgot we'd met 'em before), their Army was no more after about two weeks...  (BTW, THAT was what President Bush was referring to during his "Mission Accomplished" speech on the carrier..)

Anyway, that's some of my story..  After I retired in '06, I still watched the news, and it astounded me that the reporting from Iraq was almost exactly the same as during Vietnam.. The mainstream-press just couldn't get their heads wrapped around that, after we destroyed an insurgent attack, killing damn-near all of 'em, they'd report that "one American Soldier was killed and more three wounded" or something like that, right?

But here's what'd p*ss me off.. They almost ALWAYS started the piece with, "A deadly day in Iraq.."... No mention of the fact that we took out 10-20 of the bad guys, just that we took some casualties... They made it sound like we lost every engagement if somebody got it, and damned if I didn't think it was 1966 or 1971 again...  (Dad was there, in-country during those years (fighting in his third war),  and mom & me ate dinner in front of the TV for a year, lol.. ) Militarily-speaking, our casualties 99% of the time were not "Heavy", "Moderate", and weren't "Light".. Militarily, they were insignificant, and remained that way... (Not to those close to the person who was KIA / WIA, but y'all know I mean..)  

Anyway, I don't wanna rant, because that's echelons above and beyond what was asked.. 

The Vietnam War is really, from a a modeler's stand-point, about the best era to model in, due to the VAST numbers and types of equipment, aircraft, and vehicles used (to include almost everything in NATO and the WARPAC, ranging from  WW2-M3 "Grease-guns" or MG42s, M2 Carbines, etc. to "Buck Rogers" stuff that was built to go to the MOON...  Doesn't matter if you're a WW2-era modeler or not, the WW2/Korean War stuff was there, lol..

All this talk about Vietnam is kinda gettin' me inspired...  AND,, you can bet that LZ X-ray will be involved one way or another.... I read Hal Moore's book too,  We Were Soldiers Once... And Young is outstanding...

But there are a few more I've got rated right up there with it, with a couple that're great for Huey, Cobra, , and Loach-freaks, and that's Chickenhawk, by Robert Mason, and CW2 by Layne Heath, and for a great look about one SF El-Tee's experiences is Once a Warrior King,  by David Donovan... This one is REALLY griiping, and it's not a "propaganda piece", nor is it a novel.. Just what one US Army SF First Lieutenant saw and experienced during his first combat command... 

 The book really gets into what it was like living and fighting the VC alongside the locals (mostly Montagnards, but with some ARVN)..   As the CO of a MAT (Military Advisory Team) protecting the village of Tram Chim, along with its people (almost totally cut off from any US troops for help or back-up, except the weekly Huey that resupplied them) from the VC and how they practically had "go native" while they were there...

First-hand accounts of how the VC really were, how they'd sweep into a village and just flat extort, rape, and murder their way through it in order to try and coerce the locals to turn against the US forces..  I definately see some paralells between Vietnam and the Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.. As the poet said, "The more things change, the more thay stay the same" ...

Not much to model though ('cept the Huey or a sampan, or the one 81mm mortar-pit they had to defend the camp) ... 

bbrowniii

 

In many ways, there are some parallels to be drawn between this scenario from the Vietnam era and what we face (faced) in Afghanistan and Iraq today. Not a one to one comparison by any stretch, but the same type of assymetric warfare that means there really is no 'front' - the enemy can, and will, attack anywhere, anytime.

I agree with this. I cant speak for afghanistan but iraq was very much like this, we even had locals coming in the wire and working for us. I asked once why we see so many differant people and was told that alot of the locals were being killed for working for us. I was in a transportation company that only hauled fuel from one base to the next, thats all we did.

Definitely on my list as I only recently heard about it.

Di ck Rutan was a Misty pilot.

For a broader understanding of the war, I'd suggest looking at the political background as much as the action accounts. A good book in that regard is Fire In the Lake by Frances Fitzgerald.

Others to read are The Best and the Brightest  and A Bright and Shining Lie.

Fitzgerald in particular gives much depth to the French colonial experience and how that significantly altered Ho's previously pro-American position.

Following the defeat of the Japanese, the country was divided in two with British control of the South and Chinese control of the North, pending eventual return of the colony to France. During the long and complicated struggle for power in late 1945 and 1946, the British in part retained the Japanese forces as security against Viet Minh temporary governance and Communist insurgencies. Imagine how unpopular that concept was- fully armed Japanese forces welcoming in the French to resume their rule. Such strange political events are a continuous feature of the history of the country.

Another good book about the war in Vietnam is called Bury Us Upside Down: The Misty Pilots and the Secret Battle for the Ho Chi Mihn Trail. It is by Rick Newman and Don Sheppard.

The book is interesting in its own right, but is also a good tale of both the futility of many aspects of the US strategy and the resilience and resourcefulness of the North.

SuppressionFire

stikpusher,

Thanks for polishing up some of my points, pulled from the depths of my memory late at night I may have misinterpreted some facts. I did not know Russia and China officially backed the North.

There are stories that Russian pilots flew North Vietnamese MiGs during the war. Other stories tell the tale of a white pilot being killed by villagers after he parachuted down and the villagers being punished because he was one of theirs (Soviet). Still officially denied though.

Agreed the Vietnam war makes for excellent reading material.

A series of books by author Garry R. Linderer and who served with the special forces during the conflict are excellent material to read:

'Phantom Warriors' 'Six Silent Men' 'Eyes Behind the Lines' and 'The Eyes of the Eagle'

I like the format of each chapter being a mission the LRRP's did. This makes the book easy to pick up after a few days or weeks as you do not loose the story line. I highly recommend 'Six Silent Men' After reading it I gave the book to a friend who worked shifts. When he was done it was passed along to several of his co-workers who all gave it two thumbs up.

Of course the conflict was the subject (In my humble opinion) of the best war movies ever made:

'Apocalypse Now' 'Full Metal Jacket' 'Uncommon Valor' and 'Platoon'

I know that there were ground forces offshore and in neighboring areas well before the "official" actual landings in early 1965. I served with 2 different SF sergeants who were in Laos in 1963/1964. But from all that I have read where regular US ground forces were committed to stay on land "boots on the ground" and not as part of any exercise or contingency 'in and out' was in Spring 1965 with the Marines landing at DaNang and the 173rd Airborne into Bien Hoa. And of course the carriers on station in the Gulf of Tonkin and South China Sea for Pierce Arrow, Flaming Dart, etc. But from a historic perspective, (and IIRC the dates where the campaign and service medals are awarded) the August 1964 timeframe is the time considered as the official start dates. I do enjoy reading all that I can find on the subject.

Stik, you may want to dig a little deeper concerning those start dates

There is a very simple point of logic that gets missed by many writers concerning that "start date" being the Tonkin Gulf Resolution,,,,,,which was an answer to the Tonkin Gulf Incident

I have physically read the orders of Marines that were on the USS Tortuga before August,,,,one of which was sent from the Tortuga off the coast of Vietnam to retrain at Millington, near the very end of July 1964,,,,,,making his "first tour off the coast of Vietnam" not count towards his final total of three tours there, those were all on the ground with Aircraft Squadrons

so,,,,,we know there was an Amphib landing force in the Gulf in July,,,,I don't have the exact start date of that "up and down the coast cruise",,,,,,but, the July date is firm

the point of logic?,,,,,,,,2 carriers were involved in the Tonkin Gulf Incident,,,,,so,,,,,,ummm,,,,,,they were already deployed there,,,,,,and we had already lost aircraft in Recce shoot downs, conducted from carriers that had rotated out before the Connie and Tico's famous nights in August

Ranger, Kittyhawk, and Bonnie D1ck had all been there just before the Incident

Rex

stikpusher,

Thanks for polishing up some of my points, pulled from the depths of my memory late at night I may have misinterpreted some facts. I did not know Russia and China officially backed the North.

plastickjunkie

If you can, read "We Were Soldiers Once...And Young" written by retired Lt. Gen Hal Moore. Excellent reading about then Lt. Col. Hal Moore leading the 7th Air Cav. at the Battele of Ia Drang Valley. The movie is good but a few events differ from the book.

One of my favorite war movies.

If you can, read "We Were Soldiers Once...And Young" written by retired Lt. Gen Hal Moore. Excellent reading about then Lt. Col. Hal Moore leading the 7th Air Cav. at the Battele of Ia Drang Valley. The movie is good but a few events differ from the book.

Without getting into the politics- a few clarifications to Suppresion Fire's pot:

North Vietnam was officially backed by Russia and China politicially and militarily. It was far more than mere lip  service and moral support of unofficial support. Military hardware from bullets to the latest MiGs and SAMs, tanks and heavy artillery, were provided to the North, as well as technicians, advisors, etc.

US active involvement on the ground was roughly 8 years. The Tonkin Gulf Resolution was passed in August 1964 and can be seen as the point where active overt commitment began. Regular ground force combat units ( not SF or Advisors) first arrived in country (South Vietnam) in March 1965. The last ones were withdrawn in early 1973, roughly 8 years later.

And the North actually tried regular force on force engagements twice while US forces were involved, with the hope/aim of inspiring the "general uprising" of the populace of the South. Tet 1968 and the Easter Offensive of 1972 (a full on Soviet style conventional invasion across the DMZ and out of Cambodia) during the US withdrawl. In both cases after achieving initial gains they were soundly defeated on the battlefield in the long run with heavy losses and forced to revert to guerilla (not gorilla) warfare to rebuild their forces with Soviet and Chinese assistance.

and it is choice inspirational material for lots of great modeling subjects from leftover WWII aircraft to the highest technology land sea and air weapons from the US and USSR of that era.

By the numbers and in theory the US was winning the war in Vietnam.

The goal was to succeed by attrition and force the North into treaty talks. With a ratio of over 10 to 1 enemy troops KIA vrs US combat losses the strategy failed to work for several reasons. The main one being men and material pouring in from neighboring countries, which also provided sanctuary from attack. Unofficially the North was backed by Russia and China.

Even with a flawed strategy the US fielded superior equipment and air support which the North did not have. Added to this was the sheer volume of artillery support from land and sea. 

The Vietnamese theory of attrition was time. In conflict already for decades the population with a defiant, stubborn attitude fully backed their leader. Ho Chi Min realized eventually even a superpower would tire of war in his country. Dug in for the long haul his strategy of going underground and fight a Gorilla style hit and run war was the only way to survive and resist. Yet the one factor stronger than steel and lead tipped the balance.

For the first time in history the media was allowed to film and photograph all aspects of the conflict. Shocking images filled the news each night and public disapproval with mounting troop losses over 10 years caused the US to withdraw.

I was part of the gun fire support crew on my cruiser . We did fire missions in support of mostly the USMC up and down the coast of south Vietnam 1964 - thru 66 . As part of the gun fire crew i was able  to go ashore in Da Nang and visit with some of the Marines that we had been supporting at a location north of there. Their location was on a hill top overlooking a peaceful valley . The Marine i was with told me that some of those people out there would be attacking their position at night . Sure enough it happened . Its kinda like trying to kill an ant hill one ant at a time with 12 gauge shot gun when it enters your yard and then not eliminating their ant hill because you can only blow up their supply routes ..........................................

Hans von Hammer

US troops really controlled the piece of ground they were standing on (usually), out to the max-effective range of an M-16 (460 meters, or as far as they could see, which was about 25 meters in the bush), along with the ground inside the wire... Everything else was Victor Charlie's AO (prior to the '68 Tet Offensive)...   When you stepped outside the wire and went into the bush, out of sight of the wire, you were in Charlie's yard... 

In many ways, there are some parallels to be drawn between this scenario from the Vietnam era and what we face (faced) in Afghanistan and Iraq today. Not a one to one comparison by any stretch, but the same type of assymetric warfare that means there really is no 'front' - the enemy can, and will, attack anywhere, anytime.

Amen -Hammer !

                                                                                  The Original

                                                                       Mike Oscar Juno Oscar

                                                                                 Outcast !

                                            End Transmission-Semper Fi

I prefer the quote of an anonnymous GI that's on one of my old Zippo lighters...

"Give me your hearts and minds or I'll burn your #*$%in' hooch down..."

This is the kind of war you get when politicians are in charge instead of generals.

This line in Shakespeares Julius Caesar  “Cry ‘Havoc!’ and let slip (loose) the dogs of war”  pretty much sums up the way to do it if you really want to win a war.

I used to work with a guy who found some targets for New jerseys' guns in that time/area. Intersting stories. I would love to see a kit of New Jersey in her  Vietnam or Korean War fitting.

I actually wrote a paper in college about the role that the USS New Jersey played in Vietnam, and the information I found was staggering.

As anybody who's studied the conflict in any depth knows, disrupting the north's logistics network was always like punching sand. Bombed bridges turned into people carrying stuff across rivers. Caves were safe from those same bombs because the mud absorbed the impacts, and so on.

The New Jersey was brought in to put an end to that, at least along the coast. And it's impact was massive. Those 16" shells beat the crap out of the supply lines, bunkers and so on, and did so with basically the closest thing to stealth in those days. Since the shells travelled faster than the speed of sound, they'd impact before the sound wave, so they basically came in silent. No warning. No telltale roar of a jet engine overhead, etc. And the oomph allowed it to knock out bridges and other infrastructure that bombs had trouble with.

I've read testimonials from (I think it was) Marines on the ground to the effect of the New Jersey's presence basically making the coastline peaceful for the time it was there.

Ultimately, it was so effective that the North Vietnamese demanded the Navy remove it from the theater as a precondition to peace talks.

In 1967 the US strategy was to engage the NVA in the countryside away from the populated areas so that "secure" zones could be brought under RVN government control and the VC infrastructure eliminated thru various programs. Many of the "big" battles of that time were out along the borders of the DMZ at "the Rock" and Khe Sanh, and areas along the Cambodian and Lation borders such as Dak To. Others were "Search & Destroy/Sweep & Clear" operations in areas such as the "Iron Triangle" closer to Saigon intended to remove the NVA/VC from areas that threatened the capital. But small unit patrol action firefights could occur anywhere, 'from the Delta to the DMZ'. Plus all the clandestine cross border operations. There is plenty of good reading and model building to be done in regards to the Vietnam War.

What confused me was that I always thought ground combats occurred near the DMZ, far from Saigon, in '67 & '68.  Anyway, I cannot put down the book.  I just ordered a copy of "When Thunder Rolls."

It was US Army/USMC vs VC anywhere in the south, and USA/USMC vs the NVA more traditional set piece battles, when the NVA could be brought to battle, usually in the outying regions of South Vietnam where they had established strongholds.  Both sides fought a war of attrition to tire out the other, while trying to capitilize on their own strengths and minimize that of their enemy's. Add in the condtions of safe havens for the communists where ground forces could not pursue and engage, and the specter of Chinese or Russian ground forces intervention if the US escalated beyond some point that was never known by the civilian leadership.

Chrisk-k

Now I understand. So, it was not like the US Army vs. the North Vietnam Army per se. It was more like the US Army vs. a group of Vietcongs who would pop up anytime anywhere.

Now you are getting it

Now I understand. So, it was not like the US Army vs. the North Vietnam Army per se. It was more like the US Army vs. a group of Vietcongs who would pop up anytime anywhere.

Hercmech

Chrisk-k:

Although I've been interested in WWII for my entire life, I've only recently got interested in the Vietnam War.  I'm reading a book (Days of Valor) about what happened in '67-'68 (before the Tet Offensive) and I am totally confused!

The area of operation by the 199th Light Infantry Brigade described in the book is just above Saigon.  I know that Saigon fell in '75. So, was the North Vietnamese Army so close to Saigon in '67? Does it mean that most of Vietnam was controlled by the Vietcong in '67?  I always thought that in '67-'68 the front line was around the DMZ in the middle of Vietnam.  

 

Your last sentence says it all...there really was no front line. To say the U.S. "controlled" any territory is a bit of a stretch.

US troops really controlled the piece of ground they were standing on (usually), out to the max-effective range of an M-16 (460 meters, or as far as they could see, which was about 25 meters in the bush), along with the ground inside the wire... Everything else was Victor Charlie's AO (prior to the '68 Tet Offensive)...   When you stepped outside the wire and went into the bush, out of sight of the wire, you were in Charlie's yard... 

The DMZ was basically the border between North and South Vietnam as a result of the French Indochina War, roughly running just South of the 17th parallel, and was supposed to be off-limits to all military personel (hence the name), North and South (The NVA ignored that part)... 

the fighting would just "pop up" almost anywhere in the country at any given time

Da Nang or Chu Lai could get a rocket attack,,,,,then a day later after that was defeated,,,,,,an outpost close to the Ho Chi Min trail would get hit,,,or farther south

if you think of how Montana would be attacked by 1,000 people while being defended by 100,000 troops,,,,,,that was about how the attempt was made to end the civil war in VietNam (sort of a reverse of the movie "Red Dawn")

the fall of Saigon was different than most of the war before that time period,,,,,that was a traditional "large force advances on a goal" type of fight,,,,,,without the US participating in the attempt to halt it

Chrisk-k

Although I've been interested in WWII for my entire life, I've only recently got interested in the Vietnam War.  I'm reading a book (Days of Valor) about what happened in '67-'68 (before the Tet Offensive) and I am totally confused!

The area of operation by the 199th Light Infantry Brigade described in the book is just above Saigon.  I know that Saigon fell in '75. So, was the North Vietnamese Army so close to Saigon in '67? Does it mean that most of Vietnam was controlled by the Vietcong in '67?  I always thought that in '67-'68 the front line was around the DMZ in the middle of Vietnam.  

Your last sentence says it all...there really was no front line. To say the U.S. "controlled" any territory is a bit of a stretch.