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Armed Escort Tiltrotor

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  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Georgia
Posted by Screaminhelo on Friday, January 6, 2006 9:28 PM

LJ-
That will just give you more time to dream up ideas.  Take care buddy and let us know how you are doing.

As for the Beast from the Southeast, progress slowed to a crawl for quite a while then we had a baby.  I have managed to get a lot figured out and put together recently and it doesn't look like the monstrosity that I was afraid of.  I will try to get a couple of shots posted soon so LJ won't feel bad at all about the amount of putty he is facing.

Mac

Mac

I Didn't do it!!!

  • Member since
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  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:33 PM

Hey guys,

I haven't been a part of this thread, but I wanted to share something with you all that I came across today.  I've been working in the Army Aviation Museum archives doing some research while on "bubble" before I start Primary.  I've been neck deep in the AAFSS Program files and have come across the original proposal responses for this program from the major companies.  The AAFSS was the Advanced Aerial Fire Support System: what became the AH-56 Cheyenne.  However, some corporations didn't think that a helicopter was the way to go.  The following images are concept drawings from Boeing-Vertol of exactly what you guys have been building.

"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:05 PM
OK Jon, now show 'em that other concept.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:27 PM
Interesting, see they are no longer classified. "Other" concept? Tell us more
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 11:16 PM

John,

Nope, the project is no longer classified.  In fact, there are 20 boxes of documents that I'm in the process of going through and pulling all of the great historical material.  I'm a little upset that there hasn't been much on the Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk, but the stuff I'm going through now is from the 63-65 timeframe, when the Sikorsky entry was still the S-66.

Here's the General Dynamics entry.  Remember, this is the same company that brought you the B-58, F-106 and F-16.  What were they thinking?!

Kinda reminds me of a Ball Python...

"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Thursday, January 12, 2006 6:41 AM
More like, "what were they smoking?"
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
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  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Thursday, January 12, 2006 7:54 AM
Seen that before, but can't remember where, will have to look when I get home, may be in book I have on the Cheyenne
  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:43 AM
The French experimented with an annular wing concept called the C-450 in the late 1950s



------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:19 PM
Try the Convair Model 49 AAFSS. Found it in the Warbirdtech Series book (Vol 27)"Lockheed AH-56A Cheyenne" by Tony Landis and Dennis R. Jenkins
  • Member since
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  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:29 PM
Yep, Convair became GD.  Honestly, after reading the documentation that goes along with these drawings, I'm positive that GD just threw together the most radically different design they could, just to see if the Army'd bite.
"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
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  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Friday, January 13, 2006 7:53 AM
If you guys would like me to I'll try scanning them in and posting them tonight or tomorrow
  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Friday, January 13, 2006 5:30 PM
John
- That's be great! Thanks for offering, and looking forward to seeing those pix.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Friday, January 13, 2006 8:59 PM

As promised, here is what I have

Interesting concept, I don't know if it would have worked or not, sure would have been a maintenance nightmare though.

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Maryland
Posted by Par429 on Saturday, January 14, 2006 1:44 PM
Hey, neat concepts! As for whether the ring wing thing would work, I would guess back in the day, no. Today, maybe. I think the weight of engines back in those days, plus the weight and power loses in the clutches, shafting and gear-reduction units would have left it underpowered, if able to fly at all. Not to even mention the equipment required to make it a combat aircraft. With the high power to weight engine available today, it might work.

Quote of the day, they believed "the development risk was minimal." Really!!?

Phil
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Friday, January 20, 2006 12:33 PM
Some very radical ideas, thanks for sharing them, kinda makes what I've been working on seem a lot more realistic and possible than I had originally thought. 

I wonder how close some of those projects ever got?  Off the drawing board and to prototype?  Full size mock up?  Just some food for thought.
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Monday, February 6, 2006 12:37 PM
I don't know when I'll get around to this stage, but when I do, this is how I'm going to finish my concept:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0952871/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0999041/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0999040/L/

------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 3:07 AM

Ah, yes, that strange new finish that the V-22 is showing up in more and more.  That'll be a cool look, how are you going to do it?  I've thought of possibly using a semi-gloss or satin finish clear coat, but I don't know if that would work or not...

I don't want my escort in the usual greys, so I may just give desert MARPAT a go on the top surfaces, at least. 

Before I left I was trying to work out the hardpoints for weapons, I think I can get 3-4 on the fuselage, depending on what I'm going to carry.  I've thought of using a centerline gunpod vice a chin turret and then the two outboard stations would be rockets/missiles in a 3 station config.  With a 4, I'd go with more missiles and a gun in the nose/chin.  Not that the Mohawk gives you much nose to play with, so I guess it'd have to be a turret of some sort. 

A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 11:38 AM
I'm thinking a base of the normal colors, similar translucent automotive colors over them and a semi-gloss coat over it all. There are some techniques for painting an F-22 over on ARC I may try out for this one too.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Georgia
Posted by Screaminhelo on Monday, February 13, 2006 8:42 PM

That will be a tough finish to tackle Trigger.  It is almost a flip flop color.  I'm still up in the air about a scheme for now.  MARPAT seems good, but I am leaning toward a hybrid finish using the new AF helo gray and a pattern based on...Confused [%-)]that is a good question.

Pics will be forthcoming.  I finally settled on a basic layout.  I have alot of putty and I am considering buying stock in Evergreen.  I hope to lay it all out and look at it this week and I will take a shot or two then.

Mac

Mac

I Didn't do it!!!

  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:25 PM
What service will be the operator? Because I've been working on some new schemes for Army aircraft as part of that "Comanche-Lite" project. One that provides reduced visibility from the ground but at the same time doesn't look "Navy."
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 2:08 AM

I've been thinking (I have quite a bit of time on my hands, it seems) about a gun/cannon for my build and I keep bouncing between a turret under the nose and a fixed, forward firing gun/guns.  I'm leaning more toward the fixed setup, because I can move them up to the sides of the fuselage and leave the underside clear forward for hellfire launches.  Any suggestions/comments would be appreciated.

 

Trigger, now everytime I see your avatar photo, I think "Using the whole fist there, doc?" and "Moon River"...

A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 5:59 AM
 LemonJello wrote:

I've been thinking (I have quite a bit of time on my hands, it seems) about a gun/cannon for my build and I keep bouncing between a turret under the nose and a fixed, forward firing gun/guns.  I'm leaning more toward the fixed setup, because I can move them up to the sides of the fuselage and leave the underside clear forward for hellfire launches.  Any suggestions/comments would be appreciated.

 

Trigger, now everytime I see your avatar photo, I think "Using the whole fist there, doc?" and "Moon River"...



Only downside to a fixed cannon would be the limited aim while in vertical flight. It's fine for horitzontal flight, but when the nacelles are pointed up, the pilot may need to be moving in such a way that he can't point the nose where the guns need to go.


"Ever served time in prison?" I didn't find a whole lot of Fletch pix online ("It wasn't for lack of trying") so my options were narrowed down to only a few.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:27 AM
Yeah, and that's a pretty big downside.  I think I could make a compromise of a a gun with some lateral movement, maybe some elevation as well that's built more into the nose and not hanging down under the fuselage...I'm drawing from the WWI era battleships with guns below the weather deck (I don't know the correct term for those types of emplacements) that ran along the sides of the ships.  But then I'd have to really rework the nose of the Mohawk to make room for the machinery and ammo to make that work. 
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Georgia
Posted by Screaminhelo on Friday, February 17, 2006 2:30 PM

I am thinking of adding a 30mm to my beast.  The GAU-8 is what I am building this thing around, but I don't think that would be a good idea to fire it at a hover.  I am thinking of the fixed gun for running fire and hard targets and a flexible gun for the light work.  I am hoping that I will have room for two pylons on each wing and two or more on the fuselage.

Mac

Mac

I Didn't do it!!!

  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Friday, February 17, 2006 6:57 PM
I forgot, are you using an Apache as the basis of the fuselage?
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Sunday, February 19, 2006 10:55 AM

I've got to see a beast that will have room for underwing pylons!  I wanted to try that, but the rotor disc is so big it covers the entire leading edge when the nacelles are in forward flight mode on my version.  I pondered having some weapons that would only be available while in a hover, but that may be asking for trouble...

Now if I can just figure out how to fix that fetzer valve...

A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Monday, February 20, 2006 9:15 AM
I got lucky with mine. the Bronco's fuselage is so narrow compared to the wingspan of the wings that I have a decent gap that allows me to add stub wings for weapons.

What you might want to consider are sponsons on either side of the fuselage from which to hang things:

P.S. - Need to borrow some gauze?

------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Georgia
Posted by Screaminhelo on Monday, February 20, 2006 11:32 AM

I am using the wing from the A-10, so that gives me some room under there.  Much of the fuselage uses the A-10 for a backbone with pieces from the -64 reshaping it.

I like the lines Trigger.  Have you settled on straight tails?  I thought the anglrd ones looked pretty good.  The engineer weenies probably could tell me why it wouldn't work, but who cares if it works as long as it looks good.

LJ-
If you ever get that fetzer valve figured out, everything will fall into place. (Or maybe I just walked into an inside joke)

Mac

Mac

I Didn't do it!!!

  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Monday, February 20, 2006 4:36 PM
 Screaminhelo wrote:

I am using the wing from the A-10, so that gives me some room under there.  Much of the fuselage uses the A-10 for a backbone with pieces from the -64 reshaping it.

I like the lines Trigger.  Have you settled on straight tails?  I thought the anglrd ones looked pretty good.  The engineer weenies probably could tell me why it wouldn't work, but who cares if it works as long as it looks good.

LJ-
If you ever get that fetzer valve figured out, everything will fall into place. (Or maybe I just walked into an inside joke)

Mac



Thanks Mac. The tails will be canted outward. I could probably b.s. some reasons that sound good from an armchair-engineering perspective, but I agree with you - they just look better. Besides, that's why we have fly-by-wire!

No inside joke here - LJ's just having some problems with his flurocarbon output. Thumbs Up [tup]
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 3:25 AM

Trigger, I've added the sponsons from my donor V-22 to the mohawk body, that's where I'm getting the space for the three or four hardpoints AND the rear landing gear.  The Mohawk fuselage is so narrow after the cockpit, that I had to add something to give it a wider stance and a little more internal fuel as well.  The gun is the sticking point right now in my mind.  Something will work out.

An A-10 wing would give you a lot more room than the 1/72 V-22 wing I'm using, that's for sure. 

In good news, I just got my Publisher's Clearinghouse envelope with Ed McMahon on the front, I could already be a winner...

A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
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