Chuck,
as far as I am concerned, you have really contributed to this build in so many ways - I personally am just thankful that we have so much talent here at this SGB.

I am sure that I have some dumb questions in the making and I will be asking. Your Sultana of what I have seen is very nice appeal with warm colors.

Thank you again for sharing with us your talent !

Donnie

I can feel the momentum building as the group build gets under way.  I just wanted to let everyone who is interested that chapter 4 of my Sultana guide is now available on the www.modelshipworld.com forum.  I am very close to being able to rig the model.  Only the rail on the quarter deck remains.  I am planning on using some of the rigging line supplied with the kit but will also be making my own to supplement it.

I think the planking approach that Bruce mentioned is a great approach amongst many possibilities.  I would suggest though; that the planking above the wales be installed first.  This way, you can sand the planking closer to the correct hull profile before adding the wales below them.  I would use a batten to establish the correct run of the planks, marking the top of the wales along the hull with a reference line. I hope I can contribute in a positive way to the build.

 

Chuck

 

I built my Sultana about thirty years ago, and I'm sure the thread packaged with it today is different from the stuff I got.  If it comes with the "cotton-poly mix" that MS sells separately, I'd say - go ahead and use it.  It's good stuff, with a color and lay that really look like rope.

One easy way to improve the look of a ship model's rigging is to use as wide a variety of line diameters as possible.  In reality, even the rigging of a little ship like the Sultana would involve a dozen or so line sizes.  The kit manufacturers usually scrimp a little that way, offering two or three.  It might be worth ordering an additional two or three, at least.  You might be surprised at how much that changes the appearance of the finished model. 

Two golden rules about rigging line:  1.  When in doubt regarding size, err on the small side.  (You're unlikely to make the ratlines too small, for example.)  2.  When in doubt regarding color, err on the dark side.

The photo of the finished model at the beginning of the thread (from the Model Expo site, I assume) is actually a pretty good guide to rigging the kit.  (Light years ahead of the awful pictures on the boxes of most plastic sailing ship kits.)  Please notice the yards on the foremast.  The builder has correctly put them in the lowered positions, where they would normally be unless the sails were set.  I have two quibbles with the rigging of that model.  The running rigging material is far too light (it seems to be white thread, or close to it), and I can't imagine why the builder made the footrope stirrups black and the footropes themselves white.  There's room for a good bit of discussion about the authentic color of rigging line, but the footropes and stirrups almost certainly would have been black (or the very dark brown imparted by a coating of tar).

Just in case anybody hasn't figured it out - the essential rigging tools are two pairs of tweezers (preferably a small one with sharp points and a long one with bent tips), and a small pair of scissors that are capable of making clean cuts right at the tips of the blades.  The ship model suppliers sell some other "rigging tools," but I've never found them especially helpful.

BCS wrote:

I am thinking of planking the hull above the wales with 1/32" planking.  I think that I could use the thinner planks and then not necessarily step the hull as Chuck did.  I have not quite sorted out how to handle the bulwarks but think that I may plank the outsides and trim the insides down to the proper thickness taking into account the 1/32" planking. Bruce

I think that this is a good idea myself. I am very tempted to try what you are saying here on mine as well. But, I will wait and see. This is really the only part that I am in a quandry about is to plank or not to and where? But like I said, I like the idea that you have presented just now.

Donnie

As I have already mentioned in an earlier exchange, I initially was leaning to planking the hull in the manner described by Chuck, then went towards building it according to the plans and now I am thinking of planking the hull above the wales with 1/32" planking.  I think that I could use the thinner planks and then not necessarily step the hull as Chuck did.  I have not quite sorted out how to handle the bulwarks but think that I may plank the outsides and trim the insides down to the proper thickness taking into account the 1/32" planking.  Those wonderful plans may well change however after a good sleep and some sober second thought.  Not that the initial back and forth has been done with anything but with a sound and sober mind by the way.

As to the rigging, I think the suggestion as to how to do the ratlines is excellent and they will be less of a problem than getting all the other rigging tensioned correctly and hanging so that it looks as it should.  There is quite a bit of sawdust to get spread around before worrying about that however.

With respect to the rigging however, I would love to hear from someone who has rigged the kit about how suitable to thread that is included is for the job.  Are other thicknesses needed and is there enough of what is included?  If I have to get more, I would like to start looking into that fairly soon.

Bruce 

 

Donnie asked me to keep an eye on this thread and offer suggestions if and when I thought it appropriate to do so.  So here's my first suggestion.  Don't make a big deal out of the ratlines.  They aren't anywhere near as difficult as so many people seem to think.

The Sultana has just about the simplest rig of any eighteenth-century vessel you're going to find.  There are three shrouds on each side of each of the two masts.  The ratlines would be spaced about a scale foot apart (different contemporary sources give slightly different dimensions, but a foot is a good average).  On this kit, that means a ratline spacing of 3/16".  Anybody who has sufficient manual dexterity to build that model at all can rig those ratlines - to scale, with genuine clove hitches - in a couple of hours.  My guess is that building any sort of "jig" arrangement would take considerably longer than rigging the ratlines "right."  (I never like to assert that there are "right" and "wrong" ways of building models, but this particular instance seems to call for a partial exception.)

All you need is some sort of guide to establish the spacing.  Cut a piece of white cardstock - something like a note card will do fine - to fit between the channel and the crosstrees, inside the shrouds.  Draw a series of lines on the paper, 3/16" apart.  Fit the paper inside the shrouds and go to work.  My guess is that, if you haven't done any of this sort of thing before, tying the three clove hitches in the first ratline will take you between ten and fifteen minutes.  The second will take five or six minutes, and by the time you get to the top you'll be rigging one ratline per minute - and wondering why people make such a fuss about tying ratlines.

The trickiest part of rigging this particular model probably will be the deadeyes and lanyards.  There you may indeed benefit from the use of a simple jig, in the form of a stiff piece of wire to keep the spacing between the deadeyes consistent.  Personally, I've never had much luck with jigs of that sort.  It does take some practice to get the deadeyes spaced consistently and the tension on the shrouds more-or-less even; don't get discouraged if you don't get it right the first time and have to start over.  But once you get the hang of it, it's not particularly difficult or time-consuming.  Believe me, if you take any shortcuts (phony deadeyes, ratlines glued across the shrouds, etc.) they'll haunt you every time you look at the finished model.  My guess is that building that entire kit will take between seventy and a hundred hours.  (That guess may be on the low side; I'm notoriously inept at estimating such things.)  Rigging all the deadeyes and lanyards may take four or five hours, and rigging all the ratlines may take two or three.  That's not a high percentage of the total.

if you design it, I'm sure we'll all be grateful for the work...I'm lucky to have a full shop here, and if anyone needs one, I'm sure we could work out an arrangement.

Greg,

I want to design a jig for the Ratlines too. I have an idea, but it has not materialized yet. When I get a chance I will post my idea with some pics of the drawings that I will make. If anyone is interested, then they can build it too. The problem with designing something like that is to design it where everyone has basic tools and equipment to make it.

Donnie

 

Hard to say on my end...I know what I would like it to look like (aaaarrrgh matey), but as to the planking and all...hmmm.  Do want to build a jig for the ratlines,though.

Tonight I have settled down and decided to get the manual out for a good intro reading and seeing what this ship is all about. I was wondering if any of you have done the same?

I must admit that in reading the first few pages in "shaping the hull" , I am either slightly confused or something. I did download Chucks PDF's and really hadn't had too much of a chance to look at those, but what little taste I have seen, they seem to be very well written.

I don't want to hop ahead of anyone becuase I think that we have one modeler left that will be getting theirs in shortly.

What is everybodies impression of the kit so far of those that have it in hand? I noticed that at the beginning of reading that it says that there are different ways to make the hull and they do leave it to a modelers experience and decisions about how to do the hull.

I must say that I hate making decisions like this - now I don't know if I want to plank it or just build it from plans or what the heck to do.

I would like to get some opinions and advise. This is going to be interesting becuase I don't think that any two Sultanas are going to be the same

Donnie

Good Greif Greg !
How do you do it? I am amazed. I can only do one at a time.

Donnie

It's going to be interesting to be building three styrene kits and one wooden kit at the same time...bought a new set of dremel sanding drums (old ones were almost flat, like 3,000 grit) for the occasion!  Ticktockticktock...

              greg

That is fantastic Alan !  I know that you are excited. What do you think of the kit so far ?

Donnie

The Mail Lady Rings Twice....

Received my package from Model Shipways today!! 

 

 

As far as I know, we are still hanging with the June 10th start date. I believe that scottrc will have his kit in by the mid June date. I think it is proper to wait until June 10th. I know that some may be very anxious, and I can't blame you for wanting to start in some fashion. I wlll tell you honestly that the only thing I have done is cleared and cleaned off my workbench. I have some modifications that I have had to do to prepare for the wooden ship. I needed to fashion me a woodworking vise that has wooden jaws in it.
If I remember, I picked up my vise from Lowes about a year ago and I am just now installing it with wooden jaws.
The Columbian is from Lowes and the Wilton is from Home Depot (same unit but diff color)

Columbian®
6-1/2" Woodcraft Vise

Item #: 212038       Model: 33176

----------------------------------------------------

Wilton
6 1/2 In. Woodcraft Vise   Model 33176

I had some Popular laying around and I milled out two pieces for the jaws - didn't want the metal of the vise digging into the model.

This is the Columbian under at $15.00 from Lowes.

The only other thing is that I have started looking at the plans - most of my time is just modifying the workbench. For those that already have their kits in hand I would not blame you for start looking ahead and studying how you might want to build it. For me I know it will be hard to wait, but in the spirit of keeping with the GB, I wish to wait until June 10 so that everyone will have theirs in hand. But, like I said for those that already have it, you have the luxury of studying things over before then.

Donnie

Bruce:

I think that the idea of adding an extra thickness along the counter and then using the 1/32" planks above that would work. Its a little extra carving and fairing, but if you are up to it, give it a try. Wood is very forgiving so if it doesn't meet your expectations, you can always pop it off with a flat bladed knife and start over. This is one of the things I enjoy about working with wood.

The use of 1/16" thick plank on the inner bulwarks is something I am not sure how it would work. I would be worried about the thicker planking on the inside distorting the smooth run of the thinner outside plank. I think I leave that one to Chuck since it is regarding his ideas. :)

Russ

Chuck,

Good point about the counter and the thickness of the bulwarks with using 1/32 planking.  With respect to the counter, in addition to the feathering option, it seems to me that it would be possible to add a piece to the stern just as you did but 1/32" thick rather than 1/16.  I think that would leave the step to butt the planks against.

With respect to the bulwark thickness, perhaps using 1/16" for the inboard planking would add enough for strength and leave some for shaping.  That would still leave the outside planking at 1/32". 

Any comment on those approaches?

And yes, this part is fun isn't it.

Bruce

Gentlemen,
thank your for your attention to these details. I have been so busy today. I am going to catch up with all the discussion about the planking. It sounds very interesting and unique !  Thanks guys for posting your suggestions. This is great ! Some great ideas already !


Donnie

Actually, after giving it some thinking if you use planking that is 1/32" thick above the wales it may not be thick enough to build up the bulwarks.  I chose the 1/16" planking because it would be stronger and and thicker once the bulwarks were formed.  This way you could sand inside and out to establish the proper hull shape.  Two layers of 1/32" planking will not give you much to work with afterwards. 

You could always use a third layer inboard but that defeats the purpose of saving time carving the step into the hull.  The hull is extremely soft and isnt that difficult to carve once you get the hang of it.  You just have to discipline yourself to remove only small shavings as you slice the the hull to the desired shape. 

 

Good luck at any rate.  I hope this is helping you and confusing the situation.

Chuck

Either way will work fine. However, remember to think several steps ahead.  If you choose not to carve the hull as I have done, will it have implications later on.  Think about how the planks of the counter (which are above the wales and left natural) would be treated.  You would have to either carve a step into the hull there or feather the bottom-most plank into the hull.  There are other ways to plank the counter also, I just wanted to make sure that when you are deciding how to approach the planking that you consider all of the planked areas including the counter at the stern.  I find that this pre-construction planning is as interesting and challenging as the actual build. 

 

Thank you for the discussion about it,  it is refreshing to think through these procedures as a group.  A worth while topic might I add.

 

Chuck

Bruce:

I honestly had not thought of that idea, but I think you're correct. You could remove the bulwarks and then simply use the topside hull planking to build them back up as Chuck did with his model. The only difference from Chuck's model is that you would not do all the extensive carving along the upper hull.

Russ 

 

 

Russ and Chuck,

Thanks for the planking advice. Planking on the hull without carving the hull out seems to give another rather interesting option to ending up with the planking effect.

Chuck, you mentioned that planking the hull as Russ suggested would mean that you would not have to remove the bullwarks.  I quite like the way you have built up the bullwarks however and cannot see any reason why you could not use Russ's technique on the hull and your approach to the bulwarks.  The deck dimensions would be slightly off of course but other than that, do you see any problems?

Bruce

Regarding paints - I'm sure artist acrylics would work fine on a model like this.  I've used them several times with good results on wood, paper, and primed metal; on styrene they didn't seem to adhere as well.

My personal favorite line of paint, though, is PolyScale acrylics.  The range is vast; though only a few of the colors are specifically formulated for ship modelers, the colors for railroads, aircraft, and armor number in the hundreds.  Just don't get hung up on the labels.  WWII German Panzer Red-Brown, for instance, is a good, reddish mahogany, and "aged concrete," to my eye, is an excellent base color for unfinished decks.

The Testor's Acryl range is also enormous.  I don't find the brushing consistency of this line quite as friendly as PolyScale's, but it's good paint - and the range has recently been expanded to include quite a few colors specifically formulated for sailing ships.  It includes, for instance, both yellow ochre and orange ochre, and a color called "tallow" that's a fair representation of newly-applied eighteenth-century "white stuff" bottom paint. 

Minwax makes a lot of products that are useful for projects like this.  Unfortunately they seem to have deleted their "driftwood" color wood stain, which I used to like for deck planking.  (Olympic Paints, also available at places like Lowe's, makes a nearly-identical color.)  I particularly like Minwax's touch-up pens - wood stain in the form of fiber-tipped pens.  They come in handy for all sorts of jobs in the building of a small wood model, and don't require anything in the way of cleanup.   

I agree with Russ 100%.  If this is your first experience with a solid hull model then the approach Russ described is the best way to go.  Granted, carving the hull as I did above the wales produces a more accurate hull shape.  However, the added thickness as Russ describes will not be noticable.  In fact, you could also sand the bottom of the wales so they are slightly thinner , therefore lessoning the difference.  This would make it almost impossible to tell the difference. 

 

Again, this is the beauty of a solid hull.  There are more than a few ways to proceed whether you decide to plank the model or not.  Another alternative would be to plank the entire hull.  This would require some experience with spiling and tapering planks.  I wanted to avoid having to do this below the wales and that is why I only planked above them.  In addition to this, I do prefer a smooth painted surface below the wales on a model of this scale.   This is an important discussion to have before starting the model.  For example.  If you decided to plank the hull as Russ describes, then the bulwarks would not have to be removed from the hull and built back up later.  There are many choices depending on your skill level with a solid hull.

Bruce:

Years ago I scratch built a solid model that I planked above the wales. Alas it did not survive, but I can tell you that on the Sultana's hull, you can plank the wales with say 1/16" thick and then do the topsides in 1/32" and the effect will be pretty good. There only needs to be a subtle difference in thickness above and below the wales at this scale. Remember, on this model, 1/64" is 1" on the full sized hull. Thus, if you have a 1/16" thick wales and topside plank of 1/32", that's a difference of a scale 2" thickness above the wales which is well within scale limitations. However, if you try and create too much of a difference in thickness between the wales and the topside plank, the scale effect will be lost. The key here is to create that subtle difference in thickness and then let the color contrast complete the illusion.

Even at the bottom of the wales there is only a scale 4" difference from the wales to the solid hull underbody. At this scale, it will hardly be noticed, but if the paint job on the wales and the bottom of the hull is done neatly, the effect will be very nice indeed.

Russ

 

Russ,

Have you done some planking without carving down a solid hull?  I was wondering whether the 1/16" difference above and below the wales would be noticeable.

Bruce

Donnie:

The Model Shipways yellow ochre color is actually quite good, all things considered. It could be a tad darker, but then no one rally knoes for sure just what that color is supposed to be. :)

By the by, if anyone is interesting in planking that hull, it is easiest to do if you just plank the topsides from the wales up. While I like Chuck's idea of carving down the hull, I think for a beginner it will be just as easy to apply the thicker wales over the solid hull, after the hull has been shaped, and then plank the topsides like Chuck did. Then you can just use a clear sealer on the wood, allowing the color of the wood to imitate the paint color. It is referred to sometimes as painting with wood. Chuck's basswood planking looks mighty good to my eye. You can the appropriate sized strips at most hobby stores for very little.

Russ

 

 

 

 

Greg, thanks for mentioning stains.  I use stains and oils a lot, even on plastic.  I like the look of a stain over a red oxide or white primer because it makes an irridescent finish.  Oils are nice for washes because they give the model some body and depth.   I feel that enamels and laquers are too heavy, and give an out of scale, almost toyish look to a wooden model.

I also us artist and craft acrylics, usually as bases and then wash with a stain or oil.  I use a brand found at Hobby Lobby called "Americana" by DecoArt.  These come in thousands of colors so take you color chits and color wheel with you, airbrush well, and run about $0.85 a bottle when not on sale.

Scott

Thank you Russ,
I had some modelers that wanted to have some info on the Model Shipways paint set. I just did the best that I could to supply the info. Thanks for your information about the alternative. I will also look into this as well. Even though I have my paint set, I can still use the ideas !

Donnie

John:

I would suggest, for those that do not want to go with the Model Shipways paints, that the artist's acrylics from the local craft store will do nicely. They only cost a few pennies and they have an enormous array of colors. They are easy to use and one bottle lasts forever.

I also agree about the white and black colors. For the wales, a deep dark brown would be better looking. Minwax Jacobean stain would be a very close match for the wales and standing rigging. I used it on the shrouds for my cross section model and they looked pretty good, all things considered. An off white would be good for the Sultana's underbody. That stark white color in the box art just doesn't get it.

Just my two cents.

Russ