Model Shipways "Sultana" Group Build 2006

I've bought quite a few jars of Model Shipways paint, and I have to say I've had mixed reactions.  Some of them have worked fine.  Others - especially, for some reason, the blues - have given me trouble.  The pigment and vehicle didn't seem to mix correctly; the paint acted like a translucent syrup, and didn't really cover the surface satisfactorily.  On the other hand, I was really happy with the "aged white" color.  (I tend to avoid pure black and white on scale models.)  I also got good results with the yellow and brown hues.

I confess I get a little irritated at Model Expo's insistance on including multiple bottles of the same color in a paint set.  The truth is that one bottle of primer -or any other color - of that size would cover that entire model several times.

 

I thought I would try my best at informing everyone about the colors that I ordered as part of the package.  The Model Shipways part number is MS2016 which includes 9 bottles of paint. It is actually eight colors (the 9th bottle is an extra Primer - you have two bottles of Primer).

Ok, so I tried my hand using my paint program to duplicate those colors the best that I could. Now, the deal is that I know that everyone is going to have their Computer Monitor set up a slight different. But, at least we have some type of representation of what is going on here with the paint.

The paint is also 100% Acrylic Paint that comes 1 oz in a nice glass bottle. The bottles are rather larger than I would have thought. Handles nicely in the hands. Dilute with water.

So here goes the color scheme (please remember this is the best match I could get)



MS 4839 Primer




MS 4836 Bright Green Trim




MS 4830 Hull Spar Black




MS 4829 Hull Yellow Ochre




MS 4828 Iron Cannon Black




MS 4803 Hull Tallow




MS 4802 Bulwarks Red




MS 4831 White



Donnie

scottrc wrote:

I won't be getting my kit until the middle of June.

 

Scott, I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as yours arriving later. This will not be a problem as far as I am conerned. I think the first week is going to go kinda slow with everyone pouring over facts, figures and what ifs.  Thanks for joining the build !

 

Donnie

It seems like that Greg is all fired up too along with everyone else. I am trying hard to finish my Wappen Von Hamburg. After 5 months of building on this ship, it is about ready. I am hoping seriously that I can post some finished pics at the end of May.

I am going to be altering the heck out of mine...but then, I always do.

    In regards to your stain/paint dilemma, you might want to try tints instead of paint.  There are a whole bunch of new tinted stains available for the woodworker, from yellow to blue, etc, and that way you can still see all of the graining and the "glow" of the natural wood.  Actually, that is such a good idea that I think that's how my ship is going to be finished!  Thanks!

   You can get these in "sample" bottles from local stores, probably enough for the whole ship:

http://www.woodburst.com/deck.html

 

                      greg (getting ready for another pirate ship)

I won't be getting my kit until the middle of June.

I can't decide if I want to paint it, or just stain it.  I built a few solid hull models for a lady a number of years ago who didn't want ANY paint on them, just stain.  Talk about being carefull with glue joints.  But since then, I really have enjoyed the look of the natural wood on the model and have been hard pressed to paint them.

What kind of kitbash / modifications are you guys talking about?  Just doing planks, or is anyone thinking of altering the ship itself?

Scott

Bruce,
It seems like you and I are in the same boat (no pun intended). I too after thinking about it, first I wanted to stick with the plans, but now, I am thinking about other options. This will be fun to figure out !

Donnie
ps Bruce, did you order the paint kit ?

My kit arrived today so I will be ready to go on June 10th if that ends up being the start date.  I just have to make to the tough choice of whether to kit bash and plank or build it out of the box.  Life is great when those are the types of decisions you have to make.

Bruce

Pre June 10th Roll Call: A List of those that are building or thinking about it :


1. jgonzales
2. schoonerbumm
3. Donnie
4. BCS
5. cthulhu77
6. radguylvn
7. scottrc
8. grymm
9. Seamac

Contributor Consulting

1. ChuckP
2. jtilley

The door is always open for those that want to join. There is still plently of time to get involved and to order your kit and get settled in. For those that already have their Sultana in, if you want to see if all your parts are in the box and make sure everything is there. Now would be a good time to check your tools, paint scheme and other things of the sort so that when June 10th comes around everyone will be geared up ready to go !

Again, thanks everyboby so far for joining in.

Donnie

Donnie,

Mine is ordered and has apparently been shipped but I don't have it yet.

Bruce

I have been following the start of this group build for a few days now and am excited to see the project gaining momentum.  I have been talking with Bruce about it via e-mail.  As he mentioned I am building the Sultana now and documenting my progress.  He has posted a link to the guide I created and additional 10 page chapters will follow regularly. 

Should anyone like to ask any questions about the challenges and solutions I faced please dont hesitate.  The technique used to plank the hull was a little experimental and the beauty of a solid hull model is that there are many many choices available.

I am sorry that my timing is a little off because I would have enjoyed building the model along with the group.  I also recently completed the kit for the Phantom of which Mr. Tilley's model of her was my inspiration.  That build was also documented and the the techniques used to carve the hull diferent from how I proceeded with the Sultana.  It is available on the same website posted by Bruce.

Its been fun and the kits do produce a great model.  Here is a link to what the model looks like currently.

http://cpassaro.home.mindspring.com/progress1.gif

 

 

Yes, I've got one.  Sorry, I posted before I saw your message about taking the poll of modelers with the kit.

Seamac,
you are very welcome to the Sultana Group Build. Do you have your kit or do you need to order it.

Donnie

Hi Donnie,

OK, I hope I'm posting this correctly.  Please add me to the Sultana group build... looks like a perfect project to get up to speed in wood ship building.  Also, thank you for originating this group.

Prelimary roll call.
How many of you have gotten their kit and waiting ready to go?

I know that Greg and I (Donnie) have ours and I think some others already had one, but I wish to have a list setup for those that are ready.

Donnie

thank you Bruce

Donnie

For those who are interested in the building guide that Chuck Passaro is doing for Sultana, it can now be downloaded here:

http://forum.drydockmodels.com/viewtopic.php?t=4258

I have only had a quick look but there seem to be lots of good ideas.

Bruce

This is the new home of the Sultana Group Build. I asked Jeff to move the entire thread over here. I am not sure if everyone would want to post everything pictures and all to this thread or if everyone wants to post information about their Sultana in the SHIPS forum. I am in a quandry about this.
It seems logicial to use the Sultana Group Build (SGB) for everone to keep track of everybodies postings and progress and not to split away on tangent postings. But, then again this is just my ignorance speaking for a first time organizer.

Donnie

I have built a few of the old Scientific solid hull kits before I started making my own solid hull models from scratch, and if you want crude blocks of wood, then Scientific kits were the kits to have.  The old Seawitch kit must of had a hull made of oak it was so hard, but nonetheless, a good kit.
While venturing into solid hulls, half hulls, and scratchbuilding,  I had the luxury of having a neighbor who was a very good wood carver and he directed me on how important it is to have a good set of chisels and knives, and then how to use them.  You do two things, you shape, then you carve, and since these kits are pre-shaped, then the art of carving comes into play. The number one rule he said when carving was to relax, take your time, use light pressure, and take little amounts of wood off,  kinda like sanding, instead of digging into the wood and trying to shave off large chunks.  And always maintian sharp tools.

As you can see in the Sultana instructions, there will be a fair amount of detail carving, which what makes these models such an enjoyment because you will acually shape details instead of gluing togther a bunch a pre-molded parts.

I hope I can join you folks, but the summer looks pretty busy with current projects.  However, I have been wanting to try this kit for some time now and this GB might give me a reason to pursue this endeavor.

Scott

I've taken a look at the instruction manual MS currently includes in the kit. (It can be downloaded in PDF format from the Model Expo website.  Good bedside reading for anybody waiting for the kit to arrive.)  It looks pretty good to me.  With the additional information that appears on the plans (which aren't downloadable), they should be more than sufficient to point a newcomer in the right direction.

CA adhesives (superglues) are wonderful things, but not for all purposes.  For the wood-to-wood joints on a model like this my strong preference is for either Titebond or Elmer's Carpenter's Glue.  (I think they're pretty much the same stuff.)  They're strong, dry in a reasonable amount of time, have a good, workable consistency, and can be sanded when dry (unlike traditional Elmer's "white glue").  They also work well when applied in amazingly small quantities - a vital attribute in model building.  For wood-to-wood joints you generally don't want an adhesive that dries instantly.  I know there are some modelers who use nothing but CA for wood ship modeling, but I can't see any pressing reason to take that approach. 

The first thing to do when tackling a model like this is to study all the plans and pictures you can get your hands on, and get a clear understanding in your head of how the finished model is supposed to look.  That's the first difference - and one of the biggest differences - between a wood kit and a plastic one:  the wood one allows considerably more potential for mistakes.  The pre-carved solid hull is a good start, but if you've never seen one you may be disappointed at how crude it looks.  It's a basic, slightly blobby chunk of wood that provides the basic shape of the hull.  That's it.  One of the first tasks of the modeler is to figure out, and mark, various points on it - especially the center line.  All sorts of other measurements will need to be taken from that line.  You'll also have to drill holes for the masts, bowprit, rudder post, and various other parts.  And for heaven's sake, figure out in the very beginning how you want to mount the finished model.  If it's going to sit on pedestals, drill the holes for them first.  No matter what mounting system you intend to use eventually, you need to fasten the hull down firmly (but removably) to something while you're working on it.  A piece of plywood, big enough in all dimensions to protect the hull from bumping into things on your workbench, works well.  Make this temporary base big enough that you can clamp it down to your bench with a couple of C-clamps. 

Beyond that, the instruction manual should be a pretty good guide.  One of the first things in it is a list of tools.  Take that seriously.  It's not a particularly daunting list, but it's best to have all the necessary tools on hand before you start. 

Bruce,
that sounds fine to me. Thanks for your input. Whatever things that we can come up with to help is good.

Donnie

I have had the pleasure of exchanging emails with Chuck Passaro who has written a detailed guide to building the Phantom, another solid hull Model Shipways kit that I understand will be used as the official instructions for the kit.  He is in the process of doing a similar guide for the Sultana and has said that he would be willing to offer the chapters to the group as they are converted to pdf if people think it would be of use to them.  Having seen the material done for the Phantom, I have no doubt that it will be extremely useful,in particular for those of us who have not built a solid hull kit before.  If there is any interest in this, let me know.

Bruce

Ok,
so this is going to be very obvious to some and to others it may not be so appearent. There might be some here that have never tackled a wooden ship model before. I can only say that I have had a "taste" of it, but no completions.

Wooden Ships will go together will a different type of personality if you will. There are alot of differences that go beyond the scope of this posting that I am making now. Depending on the complexity of the wooden ship depends on how much "building" is done not "putting together".
This is why  I choose the Sultana is that is has a combination of "putting together" and "building".
And for heavens sake I certainly hope that I do not come across any certain way by decribing "putting together" and "building" as both applies to making a model. I am sure however, that some will contest my writting and my attempt to help. SInce Mr. Tilley works on both Plastic and Wood, I hope that he understands what I am talking about the difference and maybe he can contribute as to the diff of "putting together" and "building". My time is limited right now, so I am in a bind to be less wordy about it at the moment.

Now, 
The discussion at this moment for this build is about
Adhesives
I done some research about what kind of glue to use with wooden ships. Like I said, bear with me. I have found that if you use Cynacrylate or CA (super glue) then that is ok, but one thing that some needs to think about is this: If you plan to finish your Sultana with like a natural stain or whatever (instead of painting colors), you might find that the CA glues will not allow your stain to get thru, but will 'block' that stain.  If you want to stain naturally your ship, you might want to consider using some products like Titebond orginal, regular Carpenters Glue and or a product called Weldbond. These later glues allow for stains to be applied and they are also 'sandable' whereas the CA glues will dry on the surface hard and maybe crusty depending on your experise of applications.
I am going to go with a variety of CA and some locally bought Titebond from Lowes. I think the Titebond will dry fast enough for what I want to do.
My ambition here is not to get carried away with Adhesives, but just to put some thoughts out there for this project coming up.
I am not going to go with a stain per say, but I think the mast might have a stain look to it. I will use the Titebond or something simular with that as it will not hinder the looks of the mast or yards. But on parts that will be hidden, then the CA will do fine. There are also some applicator tips that you can use to make sure that too much CA is not being used.
I tend to be a little allergic for some reason of the CA. I found that ZAP makes a non-odor variety or non-allergic. It does cost more, but it actually works (no allergic reaction  no odors)

Grymm wrote:

Donnie, you're not on my wife's good side.

Tell her that the smell of (wood)en ships is very romantic !

Donnie

Hmmm.  I've never tried a wood kit before.  I'll have to check my hobby funds and talk with the wife.  I'm deep into the Cutty Sark and beginning deck work on the Soleil Royal looms over me.  I'm not sure I would start June 10th, but I could do it inside the 6 month window that's being discussed.  I also start summer classes June 5th, so my time will become a bit limited.  I'll see what I can do.  It sounds like an interesting project. 

Donnie, you're not on my wife's good side.

Hi Donnie,
I would like to try this newer kit, but have other commitments until the end of August before I can start it.  However, I should have no problem completing it by December.

Now to just convince my wife to purchase it, after spending $5000 on materials for a new addition to the house.

But, this new addition doesn't yet have a ship to put in it, so I might be able to add the cost of my model into my new addition budget.

Cheers,
Scott

Updated list of participants:

1. jgonzales (Jose)
2. schoonerbumm
3. Donnie
4. BCS  (Bruce)
5. cthulhu77 (Greg)
6. radguylvn (Rad)

I received an email from Nature Coast late this evening and quoting them"

"We have 3 in stock and can get 10 more right away if you need them."


Their email address is:
naturecoasthobbyshop@naturecoast.com

Donnie
So between Model Expo, Nature Coast and some prefer eBay, I am sure that there are enough for everyone!

"The Sultana Group Build"

I decided that I should go ahead and order the Sultana from Model Expo.
At the www.modelexpo-online.com site, I have been watching the "in-stock" quantity dwindle down to the point that I felt uncomfortable waiting. It seems that this kit is very popular for some reason. I also got the paint set for it.

The quantity available after my order is 9 from Model Expo.

I am still holding to the June 10th roll call and start date.

I apprecitate those that are interested in this kit to join in.

Donnie
ps I am not endorsing Model Expo - I have ordered from them before and felt comfortable with their business.

How's this?  I'll try to keep up with the posts, if somebody raises a question that I think I can answer I'll try my best to do so, and if some idea or source of information occurs to me I'll say so - with the understanding that everybody has the option of ignoring me at any point.  I will NOT offer opinions as to which individual's model is better than another's, or evaluate any of the models according to any supposed standard.  I spend a good bit of time doing that kind of thing for a living; handing out grades is not on my agenda for leisure-time activity.  I feel no compunction whatever about leveling blasts at manufacturers and publishers, but I don't take part in internet forums in order to criticize other modelers.

Here's a starter.  If you're trying to compile all the available information on this ship, don't miss Harold Hahn's book The Colonial Schooners.  Mr. Hahn is one of the best scale ship modelers around.  You won't need the plans in his book to build the MS kit (the ones in the kit will be more than adequate), but the little plank-on-frame schooners he's built are great sources of inspiration.  And if you live within driving distance of Newport News, Virginia, be sure to visit the Mariners' Museum and spend some time communing with Mr. Hahn's famous "Colonial Shipyard Diorama."  It's one of the most remarkable pieces of model building I've encountered.  (On second thought - before making a trip to Virginia to see that diorama, we'd better let our fellow Forum participant Ron Mariner confirm that it's still on exhibition.  Given the way that institution operates nowadays, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd stuck it in the basement.)

"The Sultana Group Build"

Some links and info gathering (more to come if I can find it):

• http://www.schoonersultana.org/
• http://www.baygateways.net/general.cfm?id=92
• http://www.tallship.co.uk/magazine/issue017article.php
• http://www.americanprofile.com/issues/20020512/20020512_2125.asp
• http://www.naut-res-guild.org/MIS/sultana.html
• http://www.lnsart.com/sultana_project.htm

Donnie