Model Shipways "Sultana" Group Build 2006

Very nice Chuck, 

The paint set from model shipways provides green trim paint for the Sultana.  I have decided to paint my Sultana, even though I did plank it as you showed in your model.  My thought though is to paint the wale as well as all the trim the green.  My question though is does anyone know if green was a valid color then and if so would the wale of a ship for that era be painted green?

thanks. 

I have finished my hull shaping and have painted below the waterline with 4 coats of the tallow and above the waterline with the hull color from model shipways,  I love the way it looks and will try to get a picture posted.

 

Dan

Chuck,
Your Sultana looks absolutely gorgeous! You truly are a master.
I'm back from vacation and raring to get back to my hull. I have every station except the tricky stern (9) done. I want to make sure I measure the transom correctly before I carve it. Donnie seems to have done a great job on it. I'll post photos when done. I shan't be planking my upper hull though - this being my first ever model, I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. Right now I'm using a mix of comments from this group build, Chuck's awesome PDF's and the official instructions.

Donnie ,

you are well on your way.  The fun stuff starts now.  When you start to add the planking the boat will start taking on a more finished appearance.  I would recommend taking care of planking the sides of the hull first.  This way the edges of the planking on the counter can be covered up by the fashion pieces.  

I am in the middle of scratch building the frigate essex right now as well.  It has been neglected for about a year but I plan on resuming work on it after the Sultana is finished.  I havent decided if I will start over so I can create a building guide for it also. 

This is what I have done so far. Sorry, I am in a hurry and couldn't afford alot of time trying to take a picture like I am suppposed to.

Anyway. This is what I did.

• Transfered the 'wales' locations onto the Templates.
  
• Transfered the wales locations on the Templates onto the hull (rough location established)
• Eyeballed what I had and adjusted for discrepancies in wales locations for smooth transitions.
• I took a scrap piece of 1/8" x 1/8" basswood using pins, I pinned the 1/8" square basswood to hull to use as a fence.
  
• Checking again for smooth wrapping and transition along the hull.
• The 1/8" stock was used only as a guideline "fence" along the intended location of wales.
• Using a small "sawing" exacto blade knife, cut 1/32" deep ridge using 1/8" sq stock  as a "fence".
• Scribed about a 1/32 or a little less "inset" along the Top of Deck "Rim" also to set up as guide.
• Using a blunt ended exacto, removed a little excess wood (hull) "above" the wales. At this time, I did not want to get carried away with carving excess from Wales up to the Top of Deck.
• Then I removed the 1/8" Square  fence from Hull and then started working from there to evening remove wood from wales up to the Top of Deck. I used mostly a  tiny flat file and some sand paper. I try to stay away from blades when removing wood. I found it is so easy to carve too deeply at such a tedious process as at this point.

This is how I made sure that both sides of the Wales location were the same. I am again time after time raching for my favorite tool the Digital Calipers to make my comparisons.
I took my dividers and marked 20 simple 1/2" tick marks along the EDGE of the Top of Deck. I took my Calipers and at each of the tick marks, I measured from the Top of Deck down to the edge of the wales. I then compared those values and adjusted my 1/8" Square stock on the other side for consistancy.
I know that you might think that 20 tick marks along the edge might seem alot, but in reality it really isn't. It is just enought to give a fair account of what is going on.
Now that I have this done, I wipped on the hull with clean towel and go back after while to check again for problems and make adjustments accordingly.
Like chuck said, it is better to remove and less frustrating than have to go back and use filler.
I think I was joking earlier in one post and said that I felt like my hull was at least 25% filler. But no, it isn't - just joling. As a matter of fact, alot of the filler that I used, was used prematurely and the sanding that was needed to do just about removed all the filler in the first place !

Sorry again for lack of pictures.

Donnie

Hi Chuck,

Man, that is a beautiful job you're doing on the Sultana.  And thanks again for sharing with us - I'm looking forward to starting the masting and rigging, but that is a long way off yet. 

Not much new to report this week, I'm in the process of selling my 1" to the foot boat (I have 2, long story) to a novice sailor and spent a lot of this weekend on the water with him.  That plus the Holiday weekend only leaves me time to write this email but I did want to take the minute to let you know how much I, and I'm sure everyone on this list, appreciates your model.

By the way, now that you have the skills, will the next project be a scratchbuilt HMS Victory?  OK, kind of kidding there, but the more I think of it and look over your practicums, the more I think that isn't of the range.  Whatever it is I hope you share that with us too.

Have a Good 4th all,

Chris 

Thanks Donnie,

 

I 'm having a blast.  It has been quiet here for a while.  I enjoy seeing the photos of everyones projects.  Your model looks to be coming along great as well.  It is interesting to see how folks solve problems differently while working on the same model.  How are making out?  Have you decided on how you will plank the hull Yet?

 

Chuck

Chuck,
your schooner is look very fine - you are indeed an artist and shipwright. Thank you again for your timely help and your assistance - it does not go unnoticed !!!!

Donnie

Hello everyone, 

 

Chapter 5 is completed and Is now available for download at www.modelshipworld.com.  She is coming along nicely.  I will be making the masts and spars next and have just finished the anchors.  Please feel free to ask me any questions.

Chuck

Just a quick note that I have finally "shaped" the hull. I have not prepared it for anything else yet at this stage. The last thing I did tonight was camber the top of deck.

My next step is marking the Wales and figure out how I want to tackle the planking. I think that I am going to opt for 1/64 planking (birch) , with built up bulwarks. However, this is not been completely decided on. I still like Chucks work and was reading more of what he did tonight. I will keep things posted and show pics of my progress later.

Donnie

ChuckP

Yes, the drawings are from Howard Chapell, George Cambell and Dana McCalip and state "Lines as taken off at the Deptford Yard, June 1768".  Perhaps the drawings in the newer version of the kit have corrected dimensioning - or are just different.  At one point Marc Mosko of Model Expo explained about drawings for some of the kits Model Expo produced that had been modified by the printer without anyones' knowledge causing some confusion  by modelers trying to build the kits affected.  I don't believe the Sultana was one of those kits, or even if there was more than one particular ship that suffered this problem.  I can't find Mr. Mosko's posts about the drawings, and this isn't an alarmist letter, it just is one explaination of things that can change drawings.  In theory, printing by plates shouldn't much change drawings over time, but copying can.  Even paper shrinkage is an issue. But, as I said in an earlier post, if the finished model's dimension is a little larger than the drawing, the ships modeled as if afloat; if the dimension is a little smaller, then it's being modeled out of water for an overhaul!

Have fun!

Thank you both for your wonderful help and assistance, now I have something that I can work with !

Thanks guys !
not to offfend anyone, I think that I am going to go with the 6mm, that seems to be inline with where I am with my dimensions and sanding.  Great help !

Donnie

Seamac,

That is very interesting.  You have the older plans.  They seem to differ from the plans I have.  Granted, I measured to the underside of the caprail of the volute.  I only get 6mm.  That just goes to show you.  You have to take them with a grain of salt.  I dont even have that drawing or the other one you showed on my plans. They are a newer one. I believe yours were drawn by Howard Chapelle?  It seems that the bulwarks are not as high on my plans.  The same measurment you took on my plans measures just under 4.5 mm. 

Go figure.

Chuck

Donnie,

According to my caliper, lifting that dimension from the drawings comes out as .20" or 5.1mm - does that sound right?  In fact, it's the same measurment for 4 & 3 - see pic. - I've marked in red what I think you're referring to.

Donnie,

Station 5 is exactly in line with where the volute will be positioned.   There is a small step up from the waste.  I would measure the distance to the underside of the cap rail just before the volute starts to curve around.   The measurement I have there is 6mm.  That is from the top of the deck to the underside of the cap rail.  To be safe I would calculate and use 7 or 8 mm so you have some room to adjust that hieght after you finish building the bulwarks.  It is a lot easier to sand away excess wood than add it later.

Chuck

Seamac,
that image that you have, well, I already have that in my drawings from the Ships kit. What I am looking for is the measurement of underside the caprail to the Top of Deck at Station #5. All the other measurements are working out fine, but this one.

Donnie

I need help !

I am having problems with Station #5 alignment. Can anyone out there tell me what TD= _______
It does not matter if it is in mm or inches.  I think I have a measurement of 5/32" or about 4 mm.

Something is wrong here. This is the only station that I am having problems with the Top of Deck (TD)
I wish I had more time to describe what is wrong folks, but maybe later. All I wish for is just for someone to measure what they have and fill in the blank for me. I have included a picture below if someone can tell me what TD equals to.

Much , Much Thanks !!!

Quite Awesome !
I never would have thought of that. Very well done !

Donnie

Here's another, simpler way to determine the exact centerline.  Can be done anywhere with ordinary household items, in fact you only need a pair of scissors, some paper, tape and a pencil.  This method is known as the "tick" tape and is refered to in the plans.  Take a sheet of paper and cut a 1/4" strip from it (the "tick" tape).  Tape one end to the deck, wrap the "tick" tape around the hull overlapping the other end and tape down forming a band around the ship.  Overlapping assists in squaring up the band.  Mark the outside edge of the paper where is bends down from the bulwarks (or deck, or whatever edge you're going over) and, on the ship form itself, both sides of where the "tick" falls (red line in pics). Also, mark the keel area where the tape passes - these lines will reference the tape back to the exact area it passed through.  A good idea is to mark one side of the tape, take you pick, either as port or starboard in order to place it back in its original position.  Now, take up the "tick" tape, and fold it so the edge lines line up and mark the fold - I use a felt tip marker.  This makes a very thin line that, when the tape is placed back into position from which it was removed by using the reference lines you made, will mark the exact center of the ship.  Very simple and affective.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/cmac_25/Ref5.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/cmac_25/Ref3.jpg

I hope the pictures come through - they do a better job of explaining this process than I do.

And Donnie, NICE PICS - you're having WAY too much fun! 

Donnie, you arr giving some great ideas for this GB.  Keep up the motivation.

I just got notified that my kit should arrive next Friday. However, I'll be on the road until possibly the 17th of July.  I have my computer with me so I can always stay in touch, just can't build.

Less and less time to model it seems.

Scott

Well, this is as far as I have gotten. For those that notice, no, at this time, I do not have provisions for my upper planking-on-hull "yet". I want to be fully satisfied of how the templates work as per out-of-the-box. When I am happy with the hull shaping, then I can turn my full attention to how I want to complete the sanding process to "allow" for the upper planking above the wales.  I still have some areas on the overall hull that still need some shaping. I am looking for the correct hull-keel- to the top-of-deck relationship to be correct.
At this point, I am entertaining the thought of using 1/64 basswood to do the upper planking. I have some 1/64 and 1/32 birch that I will look into for the deck. It is interesting as I mentioned in an earlier post that the birch color looks so close to the actual deck color that I am after.



The discoloration that you see (one is gray and the other is dark patching), is a grey primer and woodfiller. I know that the woodfiller is not the same color, but this was replaced by a trip to the lowes to get a matched filler. The gray areas that you see is a simple deal of painting the tramsom gray so that I can actually see how smooth the transom will look and the second reason, I wanted to remark with a pencil a nice clean scribes to see where I am with the sanding process. By painting this area gray and letting it dry, I was able to see imperfections in my work. No problem about the primer as it sanded away anyway while I was removing those rough areas. The primer really helps in advertsising those areas that are lackluster in shaping.











Donnie

Thanks guys for that encouragement! As you can hopefully see from my blurry photo, I am using an xacto knife and it's a brand new blade. I totally agree that buying blades is a better solution than sharpening.

I shall switch to sandpaper for a while and see how that goes. I was having problems getting the tight curves with a square block. I never thought of wrapping the sandpaper around a dowel. You're full of good ideas, Donnie! I have been "finishing" using sandpaper so I probably need to start with a coarser grit. I'll go buy #100.

I'd love to see photos of anyone else in the hull-carving stage. I'm leaving on Sunday for a week, so happy modelling!

Fippy,

I see and understand what you are doing. You ship does not look that bad. It looks like you are on track. I personally think that you should quickly and now, move on to like a #100 Grit sandpaper and start "shaping" things with it. You can use a very small block of wood that can be 1/2" by 1/2" square by 2" long or something simular.
I found that I used sanding paper #100 Grit for my entire project. I only reached for the knife on like two occasions - and that occasion was shaping the transome like what you are doing.
If this makes you feel any better, I had to put a tad of wood filler in some places and reshape. Things still turned out well. I will post some pics in a while on my progress.

Donnie

Fippy - It's kind of hard to tell from the photo, but I think what may be happening is that you've tried to carve against the grain with a knife or chisel blade that isn't quite sharp enough.

Think of a wood board as a bundle of millions of tiny straws.  If you start your cut in the center of the top face of the board and slice downward toward one end, you're carving with the grain.  If you dig your blade into the end of the board and try to cut upward toward the center of it, you'r carving against the grain.  If you make a cut from one side of the board to another, you're carving across the grain.

Carving with the grain tends to compress the wood fibers (the "straws") against each other.  Since they're pretty stiff and resilient, that's not a problem - even if the blade isn't quite sharp.  Carving against the grain tends to pull the wood fibers apart from each other.  That seems to be what happened to your hull.  It can be done with a firm grasp on a sharp, high-quality blade.  But the softer the wood (and basswood is pretty daggone soft) and the duller the blade, the more likely that there will be trouble.

You might try a few practice cuts on a piece of scrap.  Notice that changing the direction of the cutting stroke by 90 or 180 degrees completely changes the nature of the cut.

Regarding tools - for this kind of work you really have two options.  One - buy a high-quality carver's knife (or two, or three) and learn how to sharpen it.  Two - buy an Xacto handle and a fair number of blades, and throw them out as soon as they get dull.  Frankly, I recommend option two.  I've spent quite a few years trying to teach myself to sharpen chisels, knives, and carving tools, using three stones (soft India, hard India, and hard Arkansas) and a leather strop.  I've gotten reasonably competent at it, but I still have trouble with curved blades like the one in your second photo.  (By the way, that's a good, useful blade shape for this kind of work.)  The woodworking supply companies (e.g., www.woodcraft.com) sell a bewildering variety of stones, jigs, strops, and electric gadgets for sharpening tools; you can easily spend twice as much on sharpening equipment than  you spent on the Sultana kit.  Xacto tools come from the factory with nice, sharp edges.  The quality of the steel isn't great; Xacto tools also dull quickly.  But they don't cost much.  Personally, I use Xacto blades most of the time and seldom if ever bother to sharpen them; I also routinely do some pretty brutal things to them that I wouldn't dream of doing to a high-quality tool.  If I were working on this project, I'd go the Xacto route.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Well, I am back from my business trip (thank goodness) back to building again !

I do want to mention that I have rarely picked up an carving tool (which I thought that I was going to do), but actually have just used alot of sanding paper wrapped around either a 3/8" Square Stick or using a 1" dowel. Both have accomplished great results for me. I think I grabbed the carving tool once for a small cut or two, but the rest has been hand sanding. I am using a brand "Gator Grit" #100. It seems to cut thru rather quickly.

Donnie

So I've spent some time carving now and as I moved toward the stern I had to carve more and more to get the dramatic s-curves. Here's where I discovered that I was beginning to make grooves. :(

Grooves

Here's what I am doing: I am carving horizontally along the hull with the blade indicated in the link below. I tried using a flat chisel which worked great amidships but as the curves got more dramatic I found the chisel bit "ate" into the wood at the edges. So I am cutting horizontally very carefully and then doing my best to smooth out the grooves but finding it very difficult. Hopefully you can see them on the photo above around station 6 and 7. Sandpaper evens them out to a certain extent.

Knife I am using

So I would appreciate advice: Is horizontal the way to carve? Vertically seemed to splinter the wood because of the grain. Am I using the right tool? Is there a skill to which I am not privy or am I expecting too much of my apprentice hull? :)

Thanks everyone! So far I'm excited about my new hobby.
oh, and how do I post pictures properly on this forum?

Just so you gents don't think that I have been leaving all the fun to you, I too have been shaving and sanding away.  I have not had too much time but I have the bullwarks off, the centre line marked, the bow shaped and likewise the stern.  Although it is shaped, I still have to take off what looks like about an eighth of an inch to get the overall hull length the correct size.  That will be task number one on the weekend and then hopefully I will get started in on the hull shaping.

Bruce

Thanks Donnie! That does help a lot! I think I shall try exactly the same process: sand the keel edge and then use your trick with the dividers to help find the centreline. I'm not sure I need to make your jig, but I do like your jigs. I can see your engineering "bent". :)

I must admit I never thought of doing what your last photo shows - ensuring a rounded bow. That's probably a very smart move. I can see that by the time I have built the Sultana, however it turns out, I shall have an arsenal of techniques that can be applied to a lot of kits.

I'm hoping I can get some hull carving done before the weekend, when I go away for a week's vacation.

How is everyone else doing?

I make jigs not so much that I enjoy doing so, but I do it becuase it helps me figure things out better. It is not for everyone, so ... and also, you can be welcome to copy any ideas that I come up with.  I am sure that this goes way beyond anyone that cares to get this involved in trying to find the "center" on anything. Actually, I am not being perfectionist about this. I am engineering minded so my heart follows with the gadgets and jigs to help me do things better. At any rate, I do not want to become long winded as there are people that have other ideas that would suffice them.

I made for lack of better description, a trellis as you see here to help facilitate many things. It has helped me so far in alot of measuring. The trellis are glued with regular Titebond - no nails. I used a machinst square to make sure they are square. The other stick across the top is a feabled attempt to make a "center" ruler before I actually found one in a store. I used this jig to help me find center across the whole keel.

As far as the deck or top of the ship, I used plain dividers as the photo describes in itself. 

Ok, now, I found that my hull out of the box was not centered. I found that the Keel Center Line was (ok at the stern keel but off about 3/32 or a little more at the bow of the keel). sorry about my lack of natical terms.  (forward Keel "off"    aft Keel "ok")
How did I find this out - I am trying to remember !
It seems that I had the ship in vise with deck up as I was looking down on the deck. I took the pair of dividers and I measured the "center" at 3 places.
The 3 places were the 3 deck steps. Aft Step, Midship Step and fore Step. Again, I plead forgiveness of my lack of nautique. I marked the Center Line with a mechanical pencil.

I then turned the ship over with the Keel facing upwards. It seems to me that I took some sanding paper wrapped around a 3/8" square stick and  I started to lightly sand along the whole keel until I started to notice a good visible "flatness" of the keel. I think I measured a 4mm width and maintained that while allowing for the sanding to find the "natural" center by sanding. This worked for me, but I did have that 3/32 offset at the bow. However, let me say that after I drew my line down the center of the Keel , I noticed that the Center Line of the Top of the Deck LINED up with the Center Line of the Keel.
So with that, I figured that by sanding the keel edge first, it sorta found its natural center. I am not sure if I am explaining myself here or not. Maybe I got lucky, who knows.
Let me say it this way. Straight out of the box, I measured the Center Line on the deck. I turned the Ship over, and did not measure anything, but started sanding the keel's edge. By sanding the Keel's edge, the center of the Keel became more prominate and exposed enough. Then I could mark and measure the center line of the Keel from aft to fore.

Ok, now that I have over explained alot of Goop here !













Donnie

I want to jump in on this one Fippy, since I just experienced this on my own. I am on my lunch break and I will get home and tell you what I did. For one thing I bought a CENTER LINE ruler. The ruler has "0" in the center and it is so nice as you do not have to measure and guess at the center. I will give you more details when I get home.

Donnie