New German Destroyer...price gouging?

Well, having just read the review of Dragon's new Zerstorer, it seems that Dragon are not including any ship's railings PE either.

So it makes it a little easier to compare what you get in value for money terms between Trumpeter & Dragon.

I'm sorry, did I question anyone's personal viewpoint?

Bill

warshipbuilder

You are also free to further the discussion...

My line is already drawn and is not up for further discussion.

You are of course, free to make up your own minds, but please respect the decision I have made and leave it at that.

You are also free to further the discussion but please do not persist in questioning my own personal viewpoint.

Thank you.

As far as atrocities go, read the Japanese account of the Behar Massacre.  The S.S. Behar was a British merchant ship in the Indian Ocean in 1944 when she was caught and sunk by the Japanese heavy cruiser Tone.  The crew and women passengers were treated badly (some were tortured), then most were beheaded.  The order to do so came as a result of the Japanese perspective that the Americans were committing atrocities against Japanese prisoners of war.  History is always much more interesting when all sides are considered; indeed, I always have my students research all sides of an historical issue.

Does this mean that we should avoid building the new Tamiya 1/350 Tone?  That is up to you, the builder.  But, the ship did not commit the massacre of Behar's crew and passengers. Her crew in 1944 did.

That leads to the other question . . . do we continue building Kriegsmarine ships because of the holocaust?  Of course!  We are actively debating the merits of two new KM destroyer model kits. The German Navy was acquited at Nuremberg as having fought an honorable war.  But, we build Waffen S.S. tanks; the S.S. committed horrible acts of brutality.  In Europe, the swastika is outlawed; modelers cannot use it.  But we do in the U.S. for historical accuracy.  Where do we draw the line?

One of your own suffered at the hands of the Japanese 70 years ago.  One of my own, a foot soldier in the Pacific in WWII (also a civilian college professor of Japanese literature) was appalled that such a gentle and honorable people could commit the atrocities they did.  Again, where do we draw the line?

Bill Morrison

Dunno yet - mine has yet to arrive. I have read Tim's review of the kit and it looks right enough (for me).

The only downside is the omission of some PE for the ships railings. I'd have sooner had that included rather than stuff which eventu8ally gets covered over by various superstructure parts and which will never be seen again.

Still, there are enough generic DKM ship's railing PE sets out there with something suitable no doubt, and at least I'll not have to shell out in one lump for something I may or may not be able to use on the kit.

Who wins and who loses in conflicts? Everyone loses except those who are spared the fight.

As for my dislike of IJN? It's a personal thing borne of the way one of my own was treated by the enemy at the time.

Other's mileage may vary.

So what do you guys think about that new German Destroyer that Trumpeter just released?

Very provocative and stimulating exchange of perspectives, about which I have a humble, but slightly cosmic thought (OT to follow).

1. Can anyone name a truly noble war?

2. Of the WWII combatants, among which would you most want to live?

I saw some interesting footage of American submariners practicing on a Japanese sinking survivor in the water. Small arms fire, .45 Thompson and 1911.

Judge not. The smoke had barely cleared over Hawaii according to the film's alleged date.

Kormoran

It's held true for the past 5,000 years.

Prehaps you prefer "the vanquished cannot bury their mistakes". Although even the victor finds it hard to bury mistakes since the advent of live news coverage.

All nations committed war atrocities in WW2, but only the 'winner' can censor their 'facts'. My dad saw a US fighter strafe and kill a Czech farmer...it wont stop me building a P-47 if I choose to do so (he doesn't know the a/c in question, I've always imagined a P-47). One farmer isnt 6 million Jews, but still I wonder how much went on that we'll never know about.

Sorry, just not feeling the guilt you may have for the success of the Allies winning... 

It's held true for the past 5,000 years.

Prehaps you prefer "the vanquished cannot bury their mistakes". Although even the victor finds it hard to bury mistakes since the advent of live news coverage.

All nations committed war atrocities in WW2, but only the 'winner' can censor their 'facts'. My dad saw a US fighter strafe and kill a Czech farmer...it wont stop me building a P-47 if I choose to do so (he doesn't know the a/c in question, I've always imagined a P-47). One farmer isnt 6 million Jews, but still I wonder how much went on that we'll never know about.

I remember almost 40 years ago having my first experience with a kit beyond my skill level. At that time I built 48 scale armor and found that a company named Bandai produced all kinds of German armor in that scale. My brother and I made the trek downtown to Levine's in Colorado Springs. When I discovered this hobby shop, I was the proverbial kid in a candy shop. Wow, there were a gazillion different types of tanks and armor. Prior to that I had build Monogram (IIRC) armor. But these new Japanese kits had interior detailing and I was blown away. I was intimidated at first, but started on my first one anyway. It was the Panther tank.When I was done, it looked pretty good to me. Somehow kits from other mfgs never had the same appeal. Yeah, compared to the others, there were lots of tiny parts, but man did it look good to me and it wasn't too long before this was my new skill level.

I realize that not everyone craves the extra detail, but there are plenty of us out there and Dragon has been catering to us. Trumpeter has produced a nice kit too. See the review on ModelWarships.com for a good look at it.  If your looking for an easier build, then that may be what your looking for. Different strokes for different folks. There is no need to bash one or the other, vote with your wallet and don't make and *** out of yourself on a personal crusade to save the world from one or the other.

Kormoran

warshipbuilder:

Thankfully I have no interest in IJN subjects - I remember too well what my grandfather told about his time in Changi prison during WW2.

 

....'the victor writes history'.

Absolutely for sure last post on this thread.

1. Dragon is pushing the envelope on complexity. They're not idiots, when they find the envelope they will adjust. Personally, I don't think Magic Tracks are worth it. Obviously someone else must think so, because a few of Dragon's latest tanks either have DS or DS and Magic Tracks (that's a sweet idea.) They really could work on the instructions, but Eduard's would be just as odd if they built big ships or tanks. Next kit up is the Dragon Pz 38(t) - with blinking Magic Tracks.

2. As for this being an old guy habit, that's not so bad if you look at the demographics. All of these former modelers retiring ... sounds good. More to the point, this is an international hobby now. Check YouTube: there's a modeling show on Japanese television thats clearly geared toward teens. I'd guess in a world where not every kid has a car that modeling would be a very attractive hobby. The world's getting richer overall - at least rich enough for people to buy plastic airplanes. I'd guess the Asian modeling community is very large and probably pretty young - their 60 year olds were either facing the Cultural Revolution or rebuilding countries that had been devastated by the real versions of the machines we model. Being a "baby boomer" in China, Korea or Japan was a lot different than living with Leave it to Beaver in the US. This hobby has a good future methinks. (Now someone build CV6 - that's an order.)

Eric

warshipbuilder

Well I can categorically assure it wasn't (isn't) me.

I know it's not you. Even though I don't agree with you and think your a little too obsessed with the subject, I do respect that you don't hide behind fake names.

On several levels, that's very heartening to hear. Good on you for offering them the opportunity.

Kormoran,

There is actually interest among teenagers in building model kits.  As a high school history teacher, I run an after school modeling club; it is the most popular club in the school. I have 34 students, boys and girls, taking part in building plastic models of all subjects.

I join you in saying that we should be celebrating!

Bill

warshipbuilder

Thankfully I have no interest in IJN subjects - I remember too well what my grandfather told about his time in Changi prison during WW2.

Interesting...does this mean you avoid Nazi Germany or Soviet kit subjects?

I don't deny Japanese, German and Soviet war atrocities. But I wonder what atrocities would have been attributed to the Allies had they lost WW2. And also how many were swept under the carpet....'the victor writes history'.

Regardless what country or political doctrine, a fine ship (or any other military hardware) makes for a fine model and a nice little piece of history on the shelf.

Tracy,

With respect - it isn't my kit which is for sale because I couldn't build it.

I just wonder how many more examples we'll hear about whereby these kits end up as $200 door stops, or end up being sold off like this one?

Kormoran

BTW can someone explain this "first/third" buisness?

It's a classic American comedy routine by Abbot & Costello:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M

Hey Dave; you forgot the "for me" at the end of your statements about it being too expensive and complex.

warshipguy

), I'm surprised nobody remembered the CAD lines on the Nagato and Mutsu hulls. Kits for over $250.00 still have problems; just fix them and get over it.  I did, and I am glad that I have them in my collection.

It's currently $55, but theres 4 days left on that Scharnhorst, it's not a 'buy it now'. Even with the partial-construction I bet it'll still fetch a pretty dollar.

Bill, Amen indeed! I too remember those days and can only agree. Considering that kit building nowdays is basically an old-guys hobby (kids are too busy gaming) I'm surprised that this industry survives at all, let alone flourishing with excellent quality kits and new companies.It's a wonder it didn't become an expensive niche market cottage industry.

I guess we can largly thank China's 'coming of age'. And with kits like the Scharny and Great Walls FW-189, we should all be celebrating!

Thankfully I have no interest in IJN subjects - I remember too well what my grandfather told about his time in Changi prison during WW2.

Yes, other manufacturers don't ways get it right, but at least they don't charge you dearly for their mistakes - unless they are Japanese of course.

By the way - the Scharnhorst kit is sitting at $55 and $12 shipping at the moment.........About right given the hassle in building the thing.

Eric and Kormoran,

Amen!  Like I've said before, I'd hate to return to the days when the only offerings came from the odd-scale Revell and Renwal, the weird Aurora, and the rare kits from Airfix.  Oh, yeah, we also had the very rare odd-ball scales from Frog/UPC.  Dragon,and Trumpeter, keep releasing the kits!  If anyone doesn't like the products of a particular company, don't buy them!

One more thing, as long as we are trashing the Scharnhorst (), I'm surprised nobody remembered the CAD lines on the Nagato and Mutsu hulls. Kits for over $250.00 still have problems; just fix them and get over it.  I did, and I am glad that I have them in my collection.

Bill Morrison

P.S. I truly enjoyed building my Scharnhorst.

Well I can categorically assure it wasn't (isn't) me.

Dragon basher?

Too expensive? Damned right.

Overcomplicated for what it attempts to portray? Damned right.

And it isn't just me - here's a bargain for anyone who wants a Scharnhorst kit at a fire sale price -

And check out how and why this particular kit came onto the market -

http://webrevolutionary.com/price/Dragon-1350-Scharnhorst-Plastic-Model-Battleship-Kit_140510367412.html

I'll quote the relevant bit -

"This auction is for a newly released DML 1/350 scale plastic model kit representing the World War II German battleship, Scharnhorst which was purchased at our shop then returned. The Dragon kit number is #DML1040. The original buyer was daunted by the sheer complexity of the state-of-the art ship model and brought it back, but not before he glued the upper hull section to the lower one. He did a neat enough job of it, as we have tried to show in the photos, but this having been done takes away the option of building this kit as a waterline version unless the glued hull pieces are cut apart.".

I wouldn't have thought that Dragon would like too many complaints of that nature - would you?

Bad news travels fast. Just how many potential buyers can Dragon afford to put off before they call it a day on the way they currently do things?

That is all.

Who really cares enough to do detective work (comparing writing styles!?)

There's a well-known Dragon-basher here (warshipbuilder) but why he'd want to write incognito is beyond me because he's already openly hostile with regards to Dragon.

There's always going to kit/brand knockers, even $1000 kits are going to have an inaccuracy.

BTW can someone explain this "first/third" buisness?

I hope nobody complained because I called Adm Tirpitz a moron in print. (He was.)

History making thread. Got nasty - first time I've ever seen that here. Folks are talking models not the 2d Amendment. And we are definitely living the last generation that would understand reference to "who's on first?"

As for Dragon and Trumpie - they're both putting out models. As is Eduard. I wish they were all made by Hasegawa, but Hasegawa rarely puts out models and Tam-Rex isn't much better. When you get down to it, putting out kits for sale has to rank very high when judging a company.

Eric

Just noticed Great Models sale price is now $37 (and RRP jumped to $50).

The old $23 tag was obviously an error - I wonder if they accidently listed the wholesale price?

Tracy: If two comparable kits were around the same price I'd definately choose Dragon, their detail rocks. It seems in USA land they keep prices competitive but here (like in the UK) Dragon prices are really fat.

Who is it? Well it shouldn't be too hard to figure it out, even without the powers of admin or moderator. Just take a look at when they joined and what posts they have contributed to. Of course you can also look at their history on other forums and compare their writing styles. Look for clues like strange behavior such as removing ones own posts in mass, and see if there are similarities in the posting and online behavior. Frankly I don't really care who it is, just surprised that they really think they are fooling anyone but  themselves.

With any great online community there is always some that have nothing to contribute, but negativity.

"accuracy police" isn't me just in case anyone thinks so, wonder who it is?

No, Who's on first, I dont know is on third...