Helldiver! 2/08/09 Post Script

I believe that he stated that he was not going to have an update this week unfortunately...

It's Monday and no update!!! Are you OK, chuk??

Er....Chukie-boy....can I get TOTALLY off the reservation when I have the temerity to suggest.....do a ficticious Bu No.?

Yeah...I know...I know.....BLASPHEMY!!!!!!

But you get that, sometimes.....you think the Accuracy Police are gonna come round and kick your butt if you create ficticious squadron markings and a made up BuNo?? 

Hi Chukw, I thought I might take up your research challenge.

Let me make sure I understand your criteria:

SB2C-4E:
-4-bladed prop w/ spinner
-Hardpoints for rockets
-APS-4 radar pods (and no Yagi Antennae)
-Tri-color camo scheme
-Pacific combat unit

I looked through my paper references (which are not that extensive) and spent about 1.5 hours searching online (hey, I just recently laid off from my job and time is one thing I have plenty of ;)) and I came up with nothing in the tri-color scheme and found several examples in overall sea blue. I know that doesn't help at all.

One point that might be of interest is that many SB2C-4Es were manufactured as SBW-4E. The SBW-4E was a SB2C-4E manufactured buy the Canadian Car Foundry, (think TBF and TBM, same plane different manufacturers). It might help to do internet searches for SBW-4E as well, although all the images I found were either mislabeled versions or in the overall sea blue paint.

I did find the BuNo of the SB2C-4E and SBW-4E, which might help with IDing photos:

SB2C-4E: 31836 - 31935
SBW-4E: 21646 - 21741
SBW-4E: 60036 - 60209

Aircraft with these BuNo should fit your criteria.

I also tried researching the deployment of the APS-4 radar. As far as I can tell the APS-4 radar was deployed sometime during 1943. I think (it is more of a gut feeling) that the APS-4 radar was initially deployed with fighter squadrons, or more specifically night fighter squadron. I would also guess that the APS-4 radar was deployed on TBFs before SB2Cs. My thinking is why would you need a radar on a dive bomber: 1. It is not going to be used for night operations. 2. What good would an early radar set do on a dive bomber? Dive bomber are going to attack targets on the ground. Would a 1st generation aerial radar system be able to filter out "noise" from the ground to determine a target? I personally think not, and if I was an admiral I would place my radars on fighter and TBFs (for AWACS duty) b/f dive bombers. 3. I really like WWII naval aviation, and have study it quite extensively (for an amateur), and I have not seen any tri-color SB2Cs with an APS-4 radar.

Random facts: 1. SB2C-4 were introduced summer of '44 (but were most numerous of SB2Cs). 2. A directive issued March 22, '44 designated that all carrier-based fighter aircraft be painted overall sea blue. 3. A directive issued Oct. 7, '44 stated that ALL carrier-based aircraft carry the new SEa Blue Scheme.

In summary, I think you might be able to find a SB2C-4E that fits your criteria, but based on my experience it is going to be very hard to photographic evidence. In my opinion you have three choices: 1. Chose a Gloss Sea Blue aircraft you want to make. 2. Make a post-war SB2C-4E aircraft. It won't be painted overall Sea Blue but it also won't be from a wartime Pacific squadron. 3. Make a historically inaccurate plane (after all the effort you have put into this models I don't think you should do it). 4. Rip out the scratch-built SB2C-4E part and build an SB2C-4 or earlier aircraft. It will be hard but you have to decide if you want to do this or make a plane you really don't want.

I know my post is way too long and you probably won't read all of it. I really tried to do some research and i hope that it helps you.

I really have enjoyed this build and it has helped me in building my own models.

KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!!!!

Mark

  No Chuck..THANK YOU!!.........Harv

Thanks, Harv- look here:   /forums/16/833910/ShowPost.aspx#833910

It's back on page 16- cheers!  chuk

   Chuck, thank you, thank you, thank you! Your work is awe inspiring. If I may, I would like to ask 1 question. I`m in the middle of putting ignition wires on my corsair. I`d like to know what you used for tieing the double wires togrther. And how did you accomplish this. Thanks in advance, an admirer...........Harv

weebles wrote:

Greetings, I thought I had your answer but I don't think it's the missing link you're looking for.  There is an SB2C-4 on page 33 of In Detail & Scale SB2C Helldiver publication.  This aircraft at the bottom of the page does appear to have the antennas but it is clearly an SB2C-4 in a tri-color scheme.  It is also undergoing carrier qualification so it's likely that once deployed it was painted dark blue overall.  If you have this book note the crazy numbering under the port wing as well.  This is probably not much help.  You sure you don't have a late model -3 variant there?  That would most likely be a tri-color paint scheme.  I was wondering how you were going to attach the engine.  I had a similar problem with my Monogram T-6 that I decided to use the Italeri kit engine on.  It just didn't quite fit so I had to file down the engine just as you did.  It all turned out fine and looks great but it does hurt to have to do that to your work.  Did you just glue the engine inside the cowling?  Any plans for an engine mount?  Keep up the great work!  Dave

Thanks, Dave- I've built my bird as a -4E- scratchbuilt radar sets, so there's no turning back.  The bird you've pointed out is a trainer- that's what what those huge yellow numbers indicate.  I've got a color version of that pic, and buy, is that yellow worn!  As far as the engine goes, I just test fit it in- no plans for a mount- you really wouldn't see it.  Thanks!

FastasEF :L  Oh, lots of Helldivers wore the ricolor, but I've got to find that elusive -4E combat vet.   Thanks for your help!  

subfixer:  Thanks!  It seems that lots of -4's got the tricolor paint- but how many -4E's?  Ah, therein lies the Grand Question!  ;D

Luftwoller   hanks, Guy!

Hartmann352 :  I wish I could get that first link to work, but alas, no joy.  The profiles are all -04's- I've confirmed that with phot back-up.   As fara s the doors are concernmed, the kit parts are looking pretty nice.  Just need to fill the ejector pin marrks and slap on some paint.

Thanks, pal! 

sfcmac :  Much appreciated.  That scene repeats at my house as well.  That's a grim pic from the Bunker Hill- if I do  GSB scheme, one of her yellow-nosed beauties is in the top two picks, the other being a striped-rudder Randolph machine.  

bertman:  Thanks for the help- I'll look up that issue toot sweet!

Hey, Nam- thanks for all the digging!  Little Fat was a hope until those aerials shoed up...   ;D

weebles-  Oy!  Sounds like the pl;astic may have melted a bit- ouch!  That hasn't happened to me- yet!   :(  The clip is a must, unless you want to sit there and hold it.  ;)   I find that once the machine is hot, you've got to keep a watchful eye on the plastic.  It doesn't always need to be at the verge of melting- if the suction is good, fairly soft material will be drawn down neatly.  Good luck, and thanks again!

davew6003 wrote:

Ahhh....my week is now complete...........By the way I have no info on the camo, maybe someone else will know something.

 

Thanks, Dave- look- hekp is pouring in!

Greetings Chuk & all,

I received my vac-u-form and upgrade kit and finished the improvements tonight.  Naturally I had to take it for a spin.  It took me a few tries but I'm very impressed with how well the old Mattel machine still works.

One thing I picked up on was (probably because of the thinner plastic we use on cockpit glass) is the need to clip the handles together so that the frame doesn't lose grip of the plastic.  It's also important to give it plenty of time to heat up.  I used 15 minutes and got great results.

One question Chuk, I noticed on my test that there was a sort of blister appearance to the plastic after my last cast.  Any idea what would cause that?  Did you have similar issues with any of your attempts?

Thanks!

Dave

bertman wrote:

I'm not sure what it is, but the last page of FSM July '07 has a little blurb about the Helldiver in "History you can Model". The photo is from 1944 which is when the -4E seems to be made. There are little things under the wings but I thought they could be for the new rockets the article mentions. Also, it is in more than just blue. "A Helldiver circles above USS Yorktown, July 1944" with #63 on the tail and sides.

Ok, I found the same picture on the web marked as a SB2C-1C but then read that it was miss labeled and actually a SB2C-4 made into a prototype XSB2C-5, which won't help you anyway. Sorry.

picture

 

OKAY chukw....I may have found.......uh, something!

Ppg 51 0f US Navy Aircraft, Camouflage and Markings 1940-45....A S/S special pub by Thos. Doll. I recently bought this and forgot I had it.

Anyway....on that page is a -4E with a slightly modified tri-color scheme. This is an ASW craft shown parked at a snow covered air station....the scheme is called ASW Scheme II. The Sqdn. is XVF-51. You probably aren't looking for this, though.

!.....The second pic I just noticed the Yagi.......damn! It was from VB-85 off the Shangi-La and named "Little Fat". Scheme looks great though! This A/C was photographed overflying a heavily damaged Japanese airfield in 1945! So the concept exists!

The caption refers to this as a scout bomber, but why, at that late date, would they have the tri-color while other carrier-borne A/C were the deep blue?

I'll keep on it! 

 

I'm not sure what it is, but the last page of FSM July '07 has a little blurb about the Helldiver in "History you can Model". The photo is from 1944 which is when the -4E seems to be made. There are little things under the wings but I thought they could be for the new rockets the article mentions. Also, it is in more than just blue.

"A Helldiver circles above USS Yorktown, July 1944" with #63 on the tail and sides.

 

HiYa chukw! I had a chance to look in quickly this a.m. and just pored over it a bit ago. None here were shortchanged! The logic and progress of this build are a very great tutor!

I did look through my print refs about the tri-color on the dash 4. No luck as with the above posts.

I do recall some internet reading about the Beast that said (paraphrasing)

"An obviously brand new -4 flying from the factory to the fleet. (Notes the tri-color scheme).....then mentions how it will be immediately painted the new deep blue upon arrival with the fleet."

I am sorry, but many of us will keep looking! I have the above article somewhere, (I save everything!)

So, if it's out there, we'll find it! But things look dismal, right now.

Thank you again! 

 Well been looking but no luck. Just overall sea blue. My family was looking sideways at me as I was dumping boxes of books chanting SB2C-4E.  When I explained you were looking for a paint profile she just said , "More Models! Tell him to paint it PINK!"........ so there ya go , problem solved.

 I did find this one. Not mush help with the color but made me think of your engine.

USS BunkerHill

Will wonders never cease? I might be able to actually help this person....the line below was on a USS Essex website.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020957.jpg

& had this caption..."A VB-83 SB2C-4 from Essex, March 1945."

Looking at the cowling, it appears that it might have the paint thou seeks, yet it still has an antenna under the wing.

 Below are from Wings Palette.

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/765/3/4/36

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/765/3/4/77

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/765/3/4/10

I also found in a book "American Warplanes of World War II", pp 80-81 an SB2C-3, that appears to not have an antenna under the wing, & does have the 4-blade prop. from the USS Hancock, CVG-7, 1943/44. (Can't locate the camera right now, if a picture of the pages is wanted, just let me know.)

Regarding the gear doors & ribbing...can't say I found the model/modeler that you are thinking of, but here, I figure that these walkaround photos will help you figure out if it is necessary for you to go reconfigure more styrene. (photos in question are about 1/2 way down.)

http://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/sb2c/sb2c_walk.shtml

 

,Dave

Chuck your engine looks glorious. You can see soo much of it that all that detail work was worth its weight in styrene my friend. Good luck with the colour scheme.

...Guy

Sorry that you had to butcher up your bee-yoo-tee-ful engine chuk. Why don't you just throw together another one for a hardstand display? You made it look so easy in the tutorial.

This is a shot of the CAF bird. I don't think the paint is correct for the model. I read that all Helldivers were painted overall midnight blue in 1944.

Here is a link to the Fiddler's Green website that gives a little history of why the Brits rejected this abomination of a divebomber.  http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/AC/aircraft/Curtiss-Helldiver/helldive_info/helldiv_info.htm

I'm just glad my dad flew in Avengers, I might not be here today if he had been assigned to a Helldiver squadron.

Here are a couple of photos of Helldivers that are reported to be -4E's.  They are said to be Scout Squadron 75 and taken in 1945.  Here's a link with not much information...

http://flickr.com/photos/3010kin/2231944903/

 

Alright, I found a few photos with the -1 in tri-color.

I also found a color plate with a -3 that has a 4 blade prop and a tri-color scheme. It is: VB-9 aircraft carrier Lexington U.S.Navy Air Force - Pacific Sea, 1945.

I know they aren't -4's but I wonder if the scheme on the -3 might be the same since it was so late in the war?

Josh

Greetings,

I thought I had your answer but I don't think it's the missing link you're looking for.  There is an SB2C-4 on page 33 of In Detail & Scale SB2C Helldiver publication.  This aircraft at the bottom of the page does appear to have the antennas but it is clearly an SB2C-4 in a tri-color scheme.  It is also undergoing carrier qualification so it's likely that once deployed it was painted dark blue overall.  If you have this book note the crazy numbering under the port wing as well.  This is probably not much help.  You sure you don't have a late model -3 variant there?  That would most likely be a tri-color paint scheme. 

I was wondering how you were going to attach the engine.  I had a similar problem with my Monogram T-6 that I decided to use the Italeri kit engine on.  It just didn't quite fit so I had to file down the engine just as you did.  It all turned out fine and looks great but it does hurt to have to do that to your work.  Did you just glue the engine inside the cowling?  Any plans for an engine mount? 

Keep up the great work! 

Dave

Ahhh....my week is now complete...........By the way I have no info on the camo, maybe someone else will know something.

Thanks so much, fellas!  Your kind words always put me at a loss for words.  Not to start off with a downer,  but due to circumstances beyond the pale of mortal ken, there will be no up date week.  In other words, it'll be safe to visit the internet.

Now, before the next thrilling installment- I need some help!!  As far as the color scheme goes, it looks like I've painted myself into a corner.  Despite what decal sheets may say, almost all the SB2C-4E's I've managed to find so far are overall Glossy Sea Blue.  I've had my heart set on a tricolor scheme (better weathering potential!), so if you, bold reader, can help me find that elusive aircraft, glory- yea, even Eternal Ga-LORY will be yours!   You can quickly ID a Helldiver as a -4E by the four-bladed prop with spinner and a lack of Yagi underwing antennae.  I'm looking for a Pacific-based, wartime combat veteran of a bird- thanks!

Another little thing that bugs me is that I've seen a modeler or two re-shape the gear doors and re-do the internal ribbing.  Any intel there?  I've looked and looked, but no cigar as of yet.   If you can help this neurotic plastic-hacker on this perplexing matter, my eternal gratitude shall be yours to collect, share with your friends or sell on ebay.  

We now rejoin our somewhat brief program already in progress.

 

....scritch......scratch......damn!.....can reach that itch!

 

Starting to get the itch!

Not long until Sunday!

Kind of like Church.....but we go to this one all week! 

Your work is amazing. As an inexperience modeler I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time and energy you put into this installment. I will learn a lot from it.

 

Scott

 

I posted a link to chukw's page a while back......awesome stuff! Glad you caught on!

Awwww....Chukie's a good sort, ain't he?
Bloody nice of him to share his superlative work, with the added fun of his very talented artwork and rather twisted humor.
You guys wanna see more of his art, have a look at his website...it'll kick your butts....see www.chukw.com    - he's mentioned it before (I think).....but it'll give you a better insight into how and why his Helldiver is so good....he's a freak!!  But I mean that in the nicest possible sense, of course......he's an exceptionally talented individual.
And Chuk, Em just loves her present.....today is her 15th birthday, don't you know - and she considers it a part of her birfday pressie collection.  You're part of the family now!!!

sfcmac wrote:

Tell me about it namrednef! He even looked at my work? Wow and he isn't blind now. Thanks for the compliment Chuck I am truely humbled by it.

 Tell me about it namrednef! He even looked at my work? Wow and he isn't blind now. Thanks for the compliment Chuck I am truely humbled by it.