ARMOR - Sherman Family Group Build

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2189 replies

shermanfreak

Member since
January 2003

Posted by shermanfreak on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 10:13 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by Build22
Think I'm going kitbashed firefly.

Now help me out here - still boning up on my SHERMOCOLOGY (This what this build is about, right. )

With a firefly:

Some were M4A1 hulls known as "IC" - shorter than M4A4 hulls
Most were M4A4 hulls known as "VC" with V VSS susupension - some were HVSS - but not many
--------M4A4 hulls - have to close off front machine gun port
Two hatch turret was bumped out to make room for 17# breech
Steel chevron tracks
Any other sherman variations? - Yeah, usually had british occupants

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert

shermanfreak

Member since
January 2003

Posted by shermanfreak on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 10:17 PM

Latch - it's a dog !!!! ...... but what the heck ... it's the best (and maybe only) game in town right now.

I believe that some of the parts were copied from Francois .... from what I hear his was a dog too.

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert

dostacos

Member since
December 2003
From: Los Angeles

Posted by dostacos on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:30 PM

Try to help a little bit here.
M4 = Ic (includes composite hull M4)
M4A1 = IIc (rare)
M4A2 = IIIc (non existant)
M4A3 = IVc (very rare, I think only 4 or 5 built)
M4A4 = Vc (most common variant)

To the best of my knowledge, no HVSS (E-8) except as a test bed.

Just about any Sherman track .... not limited to Steel Chevron.

Loader's hatch was changed to a square hatch.

rear of the turret was cut out and an armoured box added.

Used by British, Canadian, Polish forces for sure.

U.S. M4A3 variant may have seen action once.

Hope this helps a bit.

Hijack in progress...

Ok, I watched kelly's heros today and I think I am going to have a hard time here.

What I saw or they said:
1. Said it was a 76mm gun
2. did not have a compensator on the end of the barrel, just a band at the end of the barrel
3. did not have the canvas dust cover on the hull/barrel joint
4. had welded hull that went flush to the tracks
4. suspension was VVSS
5.looked like the turret was the 76MM turret
6. the junk hanging on the Sherman changed several times including but not limited to the loud speaker was dented then not dented then dented again.
7. both hatches on top were one piece.

so it looks like the Tamiya Sherman with the 105 is the closest, but the barrel is too short.

Any suggestions?

Dan support your 2nd amendment rights to keep and arm bears!

shermanfreak

Member since
January 2003

Posted by shermanfreak on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 12:02 AM

Dostacos - not sure why you pulled down the quote, it really has no references there for the Kelly's Heroes Sherman. The quote is strictly to do with the Sherman Firefly.

Now on to your little list:
1) yes .... Oddball states they are using a 76mm gun.
2) true ... no buzzle brake
3) also true ... no cover
4) yes ... welded hull variant
4) correct again ..... VVSS
5) nope .... the turret is the high bustle 75mm style turret, not the turret used for 76mm.
6) yes ... the stowage changed many times .... which leaves you with a lot of options
7) that would make it a late production turret

Your conclusion of using the M4A3 105 from Tamiya is flawed a little bit. You have exactly the right hull and turret but unfortunately the mantlet and barrel would be all wrong.
I would suggest the Tamiya M4A3 (75) W as your basis for the kit. It gives you the correct hull, turret and mantlet. So that would leave the gun barrel itself to deal with. Jordi Rubio makes an excellent 76mm gun that you can replace the 75mm kit gun with. This would be the simplest way to go with this IMO.

As far as stowage goes ..... that's where you're scratchbuilding talents will come into play.

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert

Build22

Member since
May 2003
From: Upstate NY

Posted by Build22 on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 1:45 AM

Thank you for the added lesson in Shermocology - Professor Sherm

I tried to get into one of your classes at "Sherman U" but the class was closed out - only upperclassmen allowed. I've been on independent study and slowly making progress.

Didn't know the polish had them too.

Thanks again

Jim [IMG]

Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 3:33 AM

Sherm, or anyone else who may know,

I was just wondering what tracks should be on my M10. I want to do a Battle of the Bulge M10 and the AFV kit came with T49 tracks. Is this correct? I don’t really feel like putting tiny pieces of track together for the next week, either. Any suggestions on what to do if I need to change the track?

Thanks in advance, Big Smile [:D]

edog

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 7:44 AM

QUOTE: Originally posted by edog

Sherm, or anyone else who may know,

I was just wondering what tracks should be on my M10. I want to do a Battle of the Bulge M10 and the AFV kit came with T49 tracks. Is this correct? I don’t really feel like putting tiny pieces of track together for the next week, either. Any suggestions on what to do if I need to change the track?

Thanks in advance,
edog

edog,

Any of the standard US tracks for the Sherman would be correct. I have pictures of M10's in Europe with T51, T48, and T54 series. I do not recall a picture of one with the T49, but I would not say it was impossible. BTW, many of these tracks have duckbills, not all, but a lot do.

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shermanfreak

Member since
January 2003

Posted by shermanfreak on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 7:57 AM

Edog - T-49 tracks were used on the M10, but mostly on vehicles used by French or British forces rather than on a U.S. vehicle.

As far as what tracks to use .... Latch has got you well covered.

Here's a link to the Sherman Register Track page. Might help in your selection.
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/track_vvss.htm

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert

shermanfreak

Member since
January 2003

Posted by shermanfreak on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 8:10 AM

Now that all of you Sherman efficienados have gathered into this thread, here's a little quiz for you all.

What's Wrong With These Pictures

These pics were taken in the small town of Olds, Alberta approx. 10 years ago.
On display in front of the local legion, it has some rather interesting "mistakes".

How many can you find?

erush & keyworth can't play because they've already taken the quiz

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert

M1abramsRules

Member since
June 2003

Posted by M1abramsRules on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 9:17 AM

ok, I'm not that good, but I'll give it a try.

I don't think there were 2 MGs on the turret.
I don't think they had smoke launchers on the sides of the turret

that's all I care to guess at right now.

M1abramsRules

Member since
June 2003

Posted by M1abramsRules on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 9:23 AM

turret kinda looks funny, like maybe its modified from an older version to a newer one

Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 9:36 AM

Oh Boy, where shall we start.

The Gun Mantel,
The main gun,
two machine guns in mantel,
the turret bustle (looks Israeli-ish),
the hull is an early dry stowage,
the suspension is HVSS,
the smoke dischargers on the turret,
the turret is a late version of the standard 75mm/105mm turret,
we won't even discuss the markings.
the tranny casting is the late version

I'm wondering about the spacing of the suspension. It doesn't look quite right, but that may be due to the angle. If not, we are looking at an M4A4 body with an E8 suspension.

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 9:48 AM

well im no Shermanfreak, but i know something about Targets

1. the hull is an old hull with new suspension? (but if its a real tank it must be ok?)
2. the turret mantle looks odd
3. it looks like an israili hybrid?
4. its got a duckbill counter weight
5. its got two pipes sticking out of the mantle and the gun looks too fat, like a howitzer?

but as ive said "its a Target" Big Smile [:D]

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 10:47 AM

Mr Viking - re: tracks. I'd use the ones that come in the kit .... any Tamiya track ain't half bad.

Build 22 - an interesting set of choices !!!!

thks ShermanFreak ,was hoping some one say that ,i think to me look jus fine,,,but i am not one for perfection,,,,,,,,jus for fun and mental health thks again ,and a happy new year to one and all

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dostacos

Member since
December 2003
From: Los Angeles

Posted by dostacos on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 10:52 AM

QUOTE: Originally posted by shermanfreak

Dostacos - not sure why you pulled down the quote, it really has no references there for the Kelly's Heroes Sherman. The quote is strictly to do with the Sherman Firefly.

I am not sure how this board works. on others I can post directly to a member. I was hoping the quote would notify you.

thanks for the help.

after I posted to you I started looking for barrels Big Smile [:D]

I will see what I can find. [I liked the branches stuck to the hull in one shot, then gone the next. and they had a LADLE hanging off the back???? Dead [xx(]

Dan support your 2nd amendment rights to keep and arm bears!

Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 2:11 PM

Glad to see you in the group build MrViking

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 3:23 PM

I will be building the Sherman Firefly withwhat ever extra accessary's my wife will let me buy

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 3:46 PM

Welcome to the Forums and the Sherman build John
the Eduard and the Jordi rubio Firefly Barrels are nice, on the one ive got pictured on the last page its got the Eduard PE set and Jordi Rubio barrel, all im waiting on are finishing the tracks,
im not in the Sherman group build becouse mine too far on Captain [4:-)]

heres a nice link on the different shermans http://wwwa.search.eb.com/normandy/week3/sherman01.html

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mark956

Member since
February 2003
From: USA

Posted by mark956 on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 4:03 PM

This great more members to join the group build. Welcome aboard Mr. Viking and John coleman.
mark956

mark956

Member since
February 2003
From: USA

Posted by mark956 on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 4:04 PM

Thanks for the cool link Jon.
mark956

shermanfreak

Member since
January 2003

Posted by shermanfreak on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 5:26 PM

Welcome to Group Build John Coleman.

As far as the wife goes ...... try begging and pleading ..... it won't work but the effort scores points !!!!!

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert

shermanfreak

Member since
January 2003

Posted by shermanfreak on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 5:33 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by Captain Caveman
im not in the Sherman group build becouse mine too far on

Personally Jon ..... I think you should still join. Even though you are a little ahead of the rest of us, you still have a long way to go with your Firefly. (read into this indy tracks) We already have one member who has had to start early because of time constraints so I don't see why we can't have one who started a little earlier. The main exercise of the group build is to get as many Shermans built and have the pleasure of a little "shop-talk" as it's happening.

What do you others think ?????

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert

shermanfreak

Member since
January 2003

Posted by shermanfreak on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 5:45 PM

Oops ... forgot about the quiz. I'll post some of the answers tomorrow .... where this girl is concerned, we may never know all of them !!!!

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert

Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 6:01 PM

Oh come on Robert. Post the answers!

I want to know how close/far off I am!? Big Smile [:D]

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renarts

Member since
April 2003
From: Sunny Florida

Posted by renarts on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 6:01 PM

I have no problem with the early start if some need it.
Like Robert said, I'm looking forward to the shop talk, the comparisons of builds and seeing the finished projects at the end.

Quiz? No one said there was going to be a quiz, I wasn't ready.......? I was studying the chapters on Panzers last night, no one said anything about Shermans....can I take a make up?

Mike

Mike "Imagination is the dye that colors our lives" Marcus Aurellius A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

shermanfreak

Member since
January 2003

Posted by shermanfreak on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 7:21 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by latch66

Oh come on Robert. Post the answers!

I want to know how close/far off I am!?

Now that wouldn't be kosher would it !! Wink [;)]

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert

Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 7:33 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by shermanfreak

QUOTE: Originally posted by Captain Caveman
im not in the Sherman group build becouse mine too far on

Personally Jon ..... I think you should still join. Even though you are a little ahead of the rest of us, you still have a long way to go with your Firefly. (read into this indy tracks) We already have one member who has had to start early because of time constraints so I don't see why we can't have one who started a little earlier. The main exercise of the group build is to get as many Shermans built and have the pleasure of a little "shop-talk" as it's happening.

What do you others think ?????

As far as I am concerned, the more the merrier! If you got to start early to get it done in time, it's no big deal to me. It's not like there's money riding on this. (There isn't is there!?[:0])

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 7:57 PM

[red]Needed: High-Res PE scans[/red]

First, I'll explain why.

Aber's only made the 1/16 scale PE for the Tiger 1 so far, and word has it the King Tiger is next. The 1/16 Sherman has been begging for it for years.

To that end I want to make many of the pieces myself(or attempt to) by duplicating them up from a 1/35 sheet. I'm not sure yet what thickness I'll use of metal, but it'll be hand-cut, not PE.

I may copy, modify & use some of the catches from the Tiger 1 set, but I need templates for the headlight, horn & periscope guards, I think I can scratch fenders myself (the Sherman's are simple) and I hope to make a nice exhaust deflector and engine grilles from metal.

Anyone have a high-resolution scanner and a sheet of Sherman PE?

with fingers crossed (& Happy New Year)
WhiteWolf
(yea, mayvbe I ~am~ a masochist)

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renarts

Member since
April 2003
From: Sunny Florida

Posted by renarts on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 11:52 PM

QUOTE: It's not like there's money riding on this. (There isn't is there!?)

Oh yeah latch, big cash and prizes. Didn't Sherm tell you? Wink [;)]

Mike

Mike "Imagination is the dye that colors our lives" Marcus Aurellius A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 1, 2004 5:46 AM

On the 'Quiz Sherman'...

Only flaw in anything is assuming its a WW2 tank as it sits there.

It AINT. It may have ~been~ one, but its now an Isreali M50 as displayed, and has, from reports(and traced from its serial number), parentage in an early M4A4 (the driver/gunner bulges say early, the bogie spacing screams A4 with the unique Chrysler 'Multibank' monster) but thats about it.

The Isreali's upgunned it to a 105mm, which explains the altered mantlet & bustle, then most of the rest is standard Isreali mods (HVSS, bet it has or had a Cummins diesel in it, and well-gunned, including the launchers)

That one , if properly kitted as its M50 design, should have jerrycans, spare roadwheels and track links all over. Instead it wears its original issue WW2 serial number and OD paint, seriously misleading people.

As for Oddball's Sherman... (G104 group #3977)

I thought because of mantlet (M34A1) & long barrel it was a Firefly, but thats an M4A3 glacis and the Brits dinna get A3's! The glacis also has no travel-lock... but that ring screamed 76mm with the muzzle brake pulled. Something stunk.

In the Bridge/River fording scene you can see the exhaust deflectors (one is folded up) which says clearly again A3... but they are VVSS...
so something doesn't fit.

Then a G104 lister chimed in reminding me of when & where it was filmed: 1960 Yugoslavia, one of the countries that got much used WW2 stuff (many M36's were 'recovered' in the past 5 years)

I'd been dead on with my M4A3 ID, but had forgotten the post war upgrading managed to wedge the 76mm gun into regular turrets. Many turrets got 76mm's , and chassis got HVSS for the fight in Korea, being post-WW2 upgrades done in bases in Japan, and a few in the US too.

The other hitch was: no mark where the barrel travel lock should have been. The answer was thought it was an M36B1 with a turret swapped in. That would explain the lack of any removal marks (M36B1 was a factory-rerouted M4A3 hull) but that was denied.

M104 research said the US-altered Shermans did not have the front lock removed (scratch one theory) and its been proven Japan-refitted ones often did not get the same turret back. Unless the movie crew speaks up, we'll never know for sure...

Curious though: on the AFV Recovery CD I have, that selfsame type of exhaust deflector is seen on may of the M36 & M36A1 recoveries. I've yet to search it to see if Oddball's hull was 'recovered' (I bet no-one's thought to look)

So to put it badly... it was a 'Yugo' that Oddball was driving! It beat the T34-pseudo-Tiger the German was horsing about though, but for the 60's, that was high tech.

Remember the movie 'Patton' had M47's playing bad Tigers, 'A Bridge Too Far' had Leopard 1 chassis with mocked up turrets for Panzers (they were never properly ID'd as any specific type) and "The Bridge at Remagen' used M24's as Shermans and Pershings!

(still need a copy of 'Longest Day' , 'Patton' & 'Remagen' on DVD...)

WhiteWolf , 1/16 Sherman commander
(G104 member, T1 & KT/Porsche commander too...)

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ARMOR - Sherman Family Group Build