The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

Hi Everyone,

Well, the rudder pedals are in.  The front cockpit's pedals look nice.  Here is a picture:

Tomorrow I will paint them and that will be done!  The rear cockpit didn't fair so well.  But they are on and I am betting that you probably won't even be able to see them once the cockpit is completely assembled.  If they are, well then that is just the way it goes.  I have fought with them too long.  The instructions are nonexistent and I gave it a lot of effort.  Here is what they look like:

Tomorrow I will give them a coat of flat black and add some detail paint to the controls.  That should make it look real nice.

Ken

Thanks a lot Rex, its what I was leaning toward and I was just wondering if anyone had a clear answer as to why some do and some dont. Like I said in my photo album that spans 6 years it all depends on the squadron. Its funny seeing a flight line with one squadron that has them and the other dosent. I have built some hasegawa kits that say they had red trim and in some of the tamiya kits I know their colour callouts are not always accurate. For the sake of it being a show bird and also because I am leaning toward doing the red edges, that is what I am going to do. At the end of the day its what I want it to look like anyway. Just didnt want to stray too far off accuracy

Steve

I'm going to return the favor Steve, and make this "clear as mud" for you,,,,,,,great topic by the way, I wouldn't have given it a though if you hadn't brought it up.

I have a color pic of -451 at Beaufort in 1979 of an early F-4J, no color on the doors, and no DECM on the intake shoulders,,,,,,,,  and quite a few VF-161 F-4Js with colors on the doors in 1976

there is a color pic in the -451 section of Spirit in the Skies,,,,,,of another jet, but the right date,,,it's late F-4J BuNo 153776. AA-201,,,,,,in that pic, I can just see the color on the front of the open large nose gear door, and the small door, and the right main door have the tell tale "gray look" that means that it's not white (if you get my meaning)

so, I'd say you could go either way,,,,,,,but,,,,,,it's a show bird for a celebration,,,,tempting to say do it in red

this is one of those deals where you could slap a stack of photos down and say "It's Red",,,,,,,and the other guy could slap a stack down and say "It's White",,,,,lol

I need more Phantom photo books, lol,,,,,,,,and I need to start buying photos from the guys that sell prints,,,,,,,all the ones I and my uncle took are mostly B+W with a 110 or 126,,,,,and also most of the Phantom Photos are of  -314

hope I was of some help

Rex

jimbot58

Hey check out the work this member is doing on his Rhino!

/forums/t/133637.aspx?PageIndex=1

 

Wow!

Hey Rex, thanks for the help in trying to find that out for me. I am also goleling everything I can think of to get a clear decision. So here is some info for you and I hope I dont make it too confusing on ya.

Firstly the kit. Its the Tamiya 1/32 offering of the J and I am doing the VMFA-451 scheme. Bu # 155821 modex # 211. This kit was already done in this GB by ElTano I think and the time fram of the plane is 1975 to 1976 in bicentenial colours.

Now for the confusion. While I was in Beaufort all my pics I have have the doors in all white. VMFA-333, 312 and 235 and that was in 1979. While I was stationed in Japan and Korea we had a lot of squadrons comming and going for all the different operation we did like the annual bear hunt exercise. While there VMFA-312 was a low vis scheme and all doors were white and flaps trim was in red.

VMFA-235 was stilla Hi vis scheme and the gear doors are clearly trimmed in red

VMFA-333 still in Hi vis scheme now had its gear doors trimmed in red

Then I found a pic I didnt remember and it was actually of a VMFA-451 bird in 1983 that landed in Kadena AFB to refuele and its in low vis and the doors are trimmed in red. My friend was a refueler and I always joined him on the flightline to get around the aircraft to take pics etc. Additionally during my 6 years every A-4 and A-6 I was around from 1979 to 1986 had a red trim on the inside of the gear doors. Very confusing I know but I just dont know if there was a time when the regs changed to trim the doors in red. If im not mistaked just about all the Navy F-4s had the red trim. Any help would be very appreciated

Steve

Yeh they do.  I had a heck of a time finding a set of the actual older KMC ones..

Thunderbolt379

I think it looks GOOD -- those resin suckers really make a difference!

M/TB379

Hey check out the work this member is doing on his Rhino!

/forums/t/133637.aspx?PageIndex=1

jimbot58

Ok, guys. I need a teeney bit of help here. I'm trying to get this straight in what passes for my brain. I am mounting the gear and doors underneath the "G" and the instructions just aren't totally clear. The big door is attached to the landing gear, I got that part, but the smaller door, if I look at this right, would not only be tilted outward towards the wingtips, but would they also be at an offset angle? Am I making sense? I can't find any really good pics to get the right idea! If I place them even with the edge of the opening, it makes them angled in relation to the centerline of the plane?????

Help!

Here is the best photo I could find:

Hey thanks everyone for your input! The eyes aren't what they used to be and it helped to have some extra eyes to look at the photo and determine if what I was seeing was correct. My first thought when I looked at this configuration was that having those doors at an angle would add a lot of drag! Then I slapped my forehead and thought about hanging a huge chunk of metal with a wheel and tire at the end of it under the aircraft probably adds a bit more drag than that little door!

Those intakes look great! I don't know that I would want to do that kind of surgery even if anything was available in my scale!

Steve, I thought that was a simple question,,,,,but, then I thought, nawww, better go look so I can give some references so you might be able to look and see yourself (that's how I like to do it)

so, now,,,,,lol,,,,,I see them on early F4H-1/F-4A,,,,,sometimes on B's and then they come and go, even up to the F-4S in TPS, some of those have red doors

so,,,,if you can give me the tail code, modex, BuNo and squadron or year,,,,,,I might be able to point to a "known photo" for you

fully 2/3 of the pics I have don't show red doors,,,,,and I only used "good" color shots to base that on

Semper Fi

Rex

Excellent question Steve -- sounds like one for Rex? I have at least two birds on the bench that would benefit from this clarrification...

M/TB379

I agree those intakes look great the difference is very noticable.

I have been out of the loop lately due to an ilness that had me sidelined but have managed a few hours here and there. I will post some progress pics very soon.

I do have one question that has always confused me on some F-4s.  I have never trusted the colour callouts for the Tamiys kit and this is one of those questions. I am building a Marine F-4j and was wondering about the colour of the edges of the interior gear doors and if they should have the red trip around them like all modern aircraft do. I spent 6 years around the F-4J when I was in the Marines and I have a lot of good reference photos and going through them I have found that most of the birds are painted all white gear doors but I have found a few that had the edges trimmed in red. So was there a time frame when they used to be all white and at some time the regs said to trim them red. I know the reason for the red trim was for safety and a clear visuall if the doors were closed all the way etc. I know the flaps are trimmed in red but what about the gear doors in circa 1975.

Steve

I think it looks GOOD -- those resin suckers really make a difference!

M/TB379

Okay.  I installed the cockpit and buttoned up the fuselage.  One casualty, well 2.  Minor ones.  The tail Pitot tube and Fuel dump nozzles got snapped by an elastic that broke.  I'll just snip some off of one of my other F4 kits.  either that or make a metal pitot tube...  Does anyone know if the diameter of the pitot tube is that different from the metal tube in a bottle of Model masters cement? Hmmmmmmm...  Anyways, here are some images.  I don't do the finish sanding and fit and finish until it's completely dried so it looks a bit rough.

I think the experience I got from installing the resin intakes on my now dead FGR.2 made these come out a lot better.  The bottom fit is a LOT better and I won't have to nearly as much sanding.  Let me know what you think.

Rich

Hi Berny,

Did not see any posts from you today.  How are you feeling?

Ken

Hi Everyone!

Well tonight I got another idea of how to tackle those rudder pedals.  I put each pedal in "The Bug" photo etch bending tool and bent up the metal around the bottom of the wire.  This gives more area to work with which seemed to do the trick.  I got one pedal attached.  I want to let it dry before I start on another one.  If I only get one pedal on a night that will be okay with me since it will still be progress.  I think it looks pretty good.  Here is a picture:

Ken

UUUmmmmm....F-80 Shooting Star as a backdrop?

Son Of Medicine Man

 

jimbot58:

 

Ok, guys. I need a teeney bit of help here. I'm trying to get this straight in what passes for my brain. I am mounting the gear and doors underneath the "G" and the instructions just aren't totally clear. The big door is attached to the landing gear, I got that part, but the smaller door, if I look at this right, would not only be tilted outward towards the wingtips, but would they also be at an offset angle? Am I making sense? I can't find any really good pics to get the right idea! If I place them even with the edge of the opening, it makes them angled in relation to the centerline of the plane?????

Help!

Here is the best photo I could find:

 

 

Jim,

From all of the photographs I have been able to look at, it looks like if you are standing in front of the aircraft, the end of the door closest to you is angled outward towards the wing tips.  So I would say that they are not inline with the centerline of the aircraft.

Ken

I agree, assuming that little outer door is hinged at the outermost edgeline, that line is about 30 degrees off center. It scoops air because that little bastige is a covert airbrake...lol.....

that camera is actually on a tripod about between the Aux air doors behind the center of the aircraft, so that's the Port landing gear looking forward

the tip and front fins of that HARM are your visual references

I said tripod,,,because it's too clear of a photo to be taken by a man kneeling back there, lol

but, just to verify,,,,you are correct about different angles of the door parts

hope this helped

Rex,,,,,the guy that attracted "unwanted attention" taking F-4N pics at P-Cola, lol

jimbot58

Ok, guys. I need a teeney bit of help here. I'm trying to get this straight in what passes for my brain. I am mounting the gear and doors underneath the "G" and the instructions just aren't totally clear. The big door is attached to the landing gear, I got that part, but the smaller door, if I look at this right, would not only be tilted outward towards the wingtips, but would they also be at an offset angle? Am I making sense? I can't find any really good pics to get the right idea! If I place them even with the edge of the opening, it makes them angled in relation to the centerline of the plane?????

Help!

Here is the best photo I could find:

Jim,

From all of the photographs I have been able to look at, it looks like if you are standing in front of the aircraft, the end of the door closest to you is angled outward towards the wing tips.  So I would say that they are not inline with the centerline of the aircraft.

Ken

Yup.  That sounds about right.  Good morning all.

Rich

Bockscar

Jim, 

You mentioned "If I place them even with the edge of the opening, it makes them angled in relation to the centerline of the plane?" and from that picture, that seems right. The little door seems hinged with the axis of rotation right at the bottom wing surface. The big door attached to the gear has its axis obviously hinged up inside the bay. There's a tiny little actuator arm running from the strut and hinged just above that red tag, it appears to pull the little door closed as the big door closes.

Given the two different axis points, that little door should get pushed well past normal (90 degrees to the keel), pushed out of the way a few more degrees, looks like an additional 30-40degrees. I.e. when the wheel is partially extended at about 30-40 degrees to the keel, the little door would be pointing straight down at that juncture. That's what I'm seeing in the picture. I'm just guessing myself.

 

Jim,

Bocks seems to have the right idea.

Glenn

Jim, 

You mentioned "If I place them even with the edge of the opening, it makes them angled in relation to the centerline of the plane?" and from that picture, that seems right. The little door seems hinged with the axis of rotation right at the bottom wing surface. The big door attached to the gear has its axis obviously hinged up inside the bay. There's a tiny little actuator arm running from the strut and hinged just above that red tag, it appears to pull the little door closed as the big door closes.

Given the two different axis points, that little door should get pushed well past normal (90 degrees to the keel), pushed out of the way a few more degrees, looks like an additional 30-40degrees. I.e. when the wheel is partially extended at about 30-40 degrees to the keel, the little door would be pointing straight down at that juncture. That's what I'm seeing in the picture. I'm just guessing myself.

Ok, guys. I need a teeney bit of help here. I'm trying to get this straight in what passes for my brain. I am mounting the gear and doors underneath the "G" and the instructions just aren't totally clear. The big door is attached to the landing gear, I got that part, but the smaller door, if I look at this right, would not only be tilted outward towards the wingtips, but would they also be at an offset angle? Am I making sense? I can't find any really good pics to get the right idea! If I place them even with the edge of the opening, it makes them angled in relation to the centerline of the plane?????

Help!

Here is the best photo I could find:

Okay.  Here are a few images of the completed cockpit.  I will be doing a tiny bit of touch up work in the morning and doing a dark wash with acrylics to age the bulkheads and lighter surfaces a bit.  I may also do a medium gray wash around the edges of the black instrument panels to simulate worn paint.    Here is the cickpit.

And that just about wraps it up for me and the crew for the night..

A hearty good night from

Rich (The overworked Dad)

Deb  (The Overworked mom and detail painter)

Marissa (Chief in charge of overworking mom and dad.)

Snitch (King Cat)

Abby-Normal (Psychotic Cat)

Spicey (Sweetie Cat)

Raven (House SIuT Cat, and hussy in charge of bugging all the other cats)

And Zilla (7 Lbs of scaly Green Iguana Terror who refuses to do anything but start at us, eat, and go do nasty things in his box)

LOL...hmmmmm.....kinda looks like mayo....mmmmm.......yeah, yeah,,,kinda tastes like Emer's....mmmmmm,not bad.....on cheap hotdogs!!!!!

Bockscar

 

Uhhhh....wire? Tiny little wire?????

Uhhhh....Row!....Row ya Swabs!.....Row!!!!!!!!

Gosh, never knew you were so cruel, Ken.....lol.....

Hey, I checked out the Gator grippper glue, and it smells like acrylic, but looks and acts like Elmer's.....

Uhhhmmm so what, I've been bonding stuff with thickened Future Past, Forever!

 

Hi Dom,

Yes, I am totally cruel!  To these rudders!  They will bend to my will!! 

So, have you tried that Gator gripper glue yet?  If so, what do you think of it?

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

Hi Everyone,

Tonight I did battle with the rudder pedals (again).  While battling with the rear cockpit pedals I knocked one of the front ones loose, which in a way was good because obviously it wasn't secured enough.  The pedals won again tonight, but I have a new plan of attack for tomorrow.  I have the second set that came with the new cockpit so I am going to start over with them.  I attached a smaller gauge wire to two of the pedals for the front.  I will keep working on the two for the rear so they will be dry enough to work with tomorrow night.  I am going to attach the wire at the very bottom of the pedals and flatten the wire at the end where I need them to attach.  I might even try mixing some epoxy so that it will be thicker thereby giving a little more substance to adhere to.  Very delicate work and a real pain, but it will be very cool when I win.

Ken

Uhhhh....wire? Tiny little wire?????

Uhhhh....Row!....Row ya Swabs!.....Row!!!!!!!!

Gosh, never knew you were so cruel, Ken.....lol.....

Hey, I checked out the Gator grippper glue, and it smells like acrylic, but looks and acts like Elmer's.....

Uhhhmmm so what, I've been bonding stuff with thickened Future Past, Forever!

Hi Everyone,

Tonight I did battle with the rudder pedals (again).  While battling with the rear cockpit pedals I knocked one of the front ones loose, which in a way was good because obviously it wasn't secured enough.  The pedals won again tonight, but I have a new plan of attack for tomorrow.  I have the second set that came with the new cockpit so I am going to start over with them.  I attached a smaller gauge wire to two of the pedals for the front.  I will keep working on the two for the rear so they will be dry enough to work with tomorrow night.  I am going to attach the wire at the very bottom of the pedals and flatten the wire at the end where I need them to attach.  I might even try mixing some epoxy so that it will be thicker thereby giving a little more substance to adhere to.  Very delicate work and a real pain, but it will be very cool when I win.

Ken

Nice Work Deb, Marissa, and Rich!

That might be a good idea, just in case.  Thanks

Rich

berny13

 

That is very close.  The (V)1 had only one gondola.  I have one from the Monogram F-4C/D kit I am going to send you.  For the AN/ALQ-87 pod the antennas under the pod were longer and the same size.  If you need one of them, I can also send you one.  I am sure the Hasagawa weapons set contains the correct ALQ-87 pod.  I know I have several in my spare parts box so it wouldn't be any trouble to include that one when I mail it off.  Just let me know.