ARMOR - Towed Gun Group Build (ends 7/1/04)

Think I'll give the old 8 inch a miss, I don't need your headaches guys.

Started the little Pak 36 3.7mm for the GB, expecting a quick build. Had the old Eduard set for it (dated 1995 on the fret) but when I opened it I was not that impressed. Eduard have etch engraved the face of the gun shields to give a cast look and remove some of the material to leave raised areas for the hinge attachments, shield retaining bolts, etc. All they have done is thin it to an impossible wafer size. Even the most careful handling whilst trimming off the fret has bent the main shield and left a crease line. Furthermore the top shield section is in three pieces and because they are so thin they all actually curve; no way can you get them flat. The replacement paddle for the rear of the gun breech is too thin, and does not have the curved surround seen on the real thing. This pic unfortunately does not show the probs well enough (also includes Daimler for the Small AFV GB).



Therefore, I have had to carefully trim off all the hinge, etc detail off the kit parts and sand that down and sand down all the edges to give the impression the whole shield is thinner. I will add the PE parts to the kit shield. The paddle has 2 bad sink marks in it which are nigh on impossible to fill and sand without damaging the x detail inside. So to remedy that, I have sanded off the x inside the paddle and trimmed the too thin PE piece down at the edges. This has allowed me to fit the PE part inside the kit part. Looks much better.

The trailing legs are moulded offset and will have to be replaced or I will have a flatten tube look. So much for a quick build!

Well that's it for now.

I decided the best course would be the get the Mack truck (my prime mover) built just enough to figure out how to complete my 8" howitzer. That involved getting the towing pintle up to the right height, and that in turn required that I clean up and assemble the lower half of the truck -- or at least the chassis and suspension, etc. so I could prop the wheels on.

So I spent Sunday doing just that. It's not like it's time wasted, as it got me a good head start on the prime mover, and a massive truck it is too. I had to clean up the chassis, suspension, axles, engine, etc.

The Azimut truck isn't a bad kit, as resin kits go. The lower part of the engine block is provided and it's pretty cleanly cast, but there is a massive resin overflow at the top which took a while to sand down -- I wasn't a fanatic about it, as it disappears up into the bottom of the truck anyway, but it wouldn't fit properly unless it was whittled down a fair bit.

Construction of the suspension was pretty straightforward. The fit of the model is good so far.

I propped six of the ten wheels on and measured how far off the ground the towing pintle is. That should give me a decent final height for my trails before I assemble them -- I may actually try a dry fit on the pintle, but that would involve affixing the wheels to the truck and that might be more trouble that it's worth. (I obviously don't want to glue the wheels on yet.)

I then turned back to the gun and worked on some of the fiddlier parts of the suspension. I have to leave a lot of parts off until I have that height determined. That I can't do until I have my Masters Productions WWII wheels for the gun. D'oh! So for now it's a little of this, a little of that.

Some of the parts will also require a bit of conversion, but nothing too spectacular. Easy stuff I can do.

QUOTE: Originally posted by muzzleflash88 OK>>> Now i understand your mack dilema (i think)... you are trying to figure out the difference between hooking the truck up to the limber/gun or just hooking it straight to the gun.... right?

Yep. The towing pintle on the Mack is different from the hook-up point on the limber. And there are a million fiddly parts that you have to install that are glued on based on how high up the trails are jacked.

Not that suspension issues have ever existed for an armor modeler before though.

Larry:
Glad to help.
Now if I can just get my own Mack NO kit.
Now maybe back to building, hasn't been a real productive week for lots of reasons....
John

QUOTE: Originally posted by jratz Seems that the pintle is removed and stowed. In its place goes a U-joint to which the trail clamp fastens.

AHA! Azimut gives you that U-joint and the horizontal pin -- now I know how it goes into the AFV Club gun. Great stuff. Thanks a million!

OK>>> Now i understand your mack dilema (i think)... you are trying to figure out the difference between hooking the truck up to the limber/gun or just hooking it straight to the gun.... right?

Larry:

Good News: TM 10-1679 arrived today.
Bad News: It is a Maintenance manual, not an Operators manual.
Good News: It does have some discussion of the towing components, so here you are.

Seems that the pintle is removed and stowed.
In its place goes a U-joint to which the trail clamp fastens.


Url #1 is the above pic of said Draw Bar (which is replacement pintle + trail clamp).
Url #2 & #3 have an extract of the operation of all this & some pictures.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jratzweb1/images/Mack01.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~jratzweb1/images/Mack02.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~jratzweb1/images/Mack03.jpg


And for being such a nice guy thru all this, I'll throw in some cab detail ...

http://home.earthlink.net/~jratzweb1/images/Mack05.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~jratzweb1/images/Mack06.jpg


And you remember the pic of the Mack pulling the gun over the hill ?

I (really we) now expect a super build -- get to it !!!

Some of these didn't show well, so I chnaged to url so you can right-click & save.
If you have problems with them, let me know & I'll send 'em to you off forum.

QUOTE: Originally posted by muzzleflash88 How about having the truck arriving to pick up the gun? "We have orders to take this gun to Hill 135".....

Or maybe, "hey baby, come here often? What's your major?"

I think it's gonna look cool all hooked up.

John, did you get the TM yet?

QUOTE: Originally posted by Larry_Dunn I've been stalled on my gun because I plan on displaying it towed by the Mack NO, and that may cause assembly problems on the gun. I need to have the gun towed at a certain angle -- it's the old quandary I started the build with. I may now actually hop back onto the truck build. [:0]

How about having the truck arriving to pick up the gun?
"We have orders to take this gun to Hill 135".....

So it is a "About to be Towed" gun

John, thanks for the updates -- I ordered my Masters set from Scale Link in the UK. They are on their way, apparently. The dolly (or whatever) isn't much of an issue to me, as I'm not using it anyway. I just wanted the wheels/tires.

Muzzleflash, that stuff is looking great!

zokissima, this is the AFV Club kit of the 8" howitzer. I don't know if there is a resin one, actually. The big prime mover I have planned to build for the gun is resin, though.

I've been stalled on my gun because I plan on displaying it towed by the Mack NO, and that may cause assembly problems on the gun. I need to have the gun towed at a certain angle -- it's the old quandary I started the build with. I may now actually hop back onto the truck build. [:0]

That is going to make a great model/diorama Muzzleflash. Hope it all goes to plan.

Matt

Looks good, Muzzleflash. Hope to see it finished soon.

muzzleflash, that looks absolutely great! I have a few ICM kits, but I've not built one yet, but if this is the level of detail they feature, I probably should get around to it. Can't wait to see yours painted up

Larry, forgive my ignorance, but are you building the AFV kit or the resin (forgot manufacturer)?

PROGRESS PICS:
I finally made time to snap a few shots, things have been super crazy for me lately

I am so happy with the ICM models. The horse and limber are as amazing as the gun. I am happy with my progress but am always looking for suggestions (that's why we are here, right?

Nothing is painted yet, just plain'ol progress pictures:


ICM 45mm AT gun, ICM horse/limber/figure, Zveda zis-3




I may get flashy with these Russian guns I may have to do some bright Russian Red, or some White/Blue lines on the guns to give them some character. I would love input on that!

Larry:

Thanks, I picked up your thread on MLX & left a question as to when the 5-spoke came into play -- if Korea, then I can be OK ....

BTW, I think 2-1/2 wheels are smaller diameter -- I laid my Tamiya 2-1/2 wheels which are 6-spoke against the 155(&PSP) and the Tamiya's are smaller dia. (So I can't just use them).

I have otherwise 4 options:
-1 ignore the problem (meaning build post-WW2)
-2 fill the holes in the PSP wheels & recut to 6-spoke (ugh!!).
-3 take the nice 6-spoke resin wheels/tires off my very big $$$$ Roy Models Diamond T wrecker kit -- like hell I will .....
-4 look for the Masters Production set ....

BTW, I just studied the Masters pic you showed. The "Dolly M1" is really the "Limber M2". Your kit & mine both have the "Limber M5". I am not sure about the "Dolly" term, I think that may be a translation issue, but I think the "M1" refers to the gun model rather than the limber model, because I know the early 155 Gun M1 had the M2 Limber, while the later 155 gun M2 could use either the M2 or M5 Limber. For several reasons, I am tweaking the 155 semi-M1 in the kit to the 155 M2, which is still WW2 (& beyond).

Larry: An update -- I found the Masters sets at www.blast-models.com a French site and ordered 2 sets. One set was 15Euro & they have a 20Euro minimum. We shall see what we shall see ....

Larry: 2nd update -- AA#13 at VLS, I ordered one.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Larry_Dunn Are those what you got? What I'm getting? Who knows?!?! Supposedly the Masters guys specialize in WWII truck and vehicle conversions. (Holds breath.)

Update. I don't know if I should post this or not, but John I'm going to assume you are like me, and would want to know.

Apparently the PSP wheels have five holes, the same as the kit, which seems to have not been used in WWII. The tires in the PSP are the correct "civilian" type so commonly used on non-powered wheeled hardware in WWII, apparently for better traction.

The Masters Production wheels have the six holes, and civilian tires. On top of that, apparently there are a few other correction pieces in the kit.

QUOTE: Originally posted by muzzleflash88 That long tom is one bad looking mutha :)

Dude, it's a beast. You gotta build one. It's one menacing gun. I think the 8" is particularly scary looking. The width of the muzzle still bugs me out. It looks like the main gun on a cruiser.

That long tom is one bad looking mutha :)

Thanks. Seems that another French company, Masters Productions, also makes wheels for the gun, these with the six-hole wheels, which I think were called "Budd wheels." These were the wheels on the 2.5 ton truck.. Are they for WWII? I dunno! But I think the whole wheel thing is a bit of a red herring. Apparently the kit wheels are ok for WWII, but "civilian tires" were more widely used.

Are those what you got? What I'm getting? Who knows?!?! Supposedly the Masters guys specialize in WWII truck and vehicle conversions. (Holds breath.)

Here's a pic:



Says it's for the M1, so I've got my fingers crossed.

Larry:

The TM lists the clamp with the limber. It isn't part of the issue items with the gun itself, at least not by the TM -- who knows if a supply catalog (ORG G series) had something different -- wouldn't be the first time -- in a past life I almost bought one of those things one book said I should have and another said I shouldn't and of course I didn't when the inspectors came ....

PSP wheels are same as kit -- 5-hole. Tires have 3 treads around. Pix in my TM's suggest anything from 5-spoke to 6-spoke to 7-spoke ?? None of pictures are great so it is hard to tell. I don't think I'm gonna care about it, if I don't get off the gun itself, I'll never get to the HST at this rate .... I mean one has to stop somewhere -- your 2nd picture back there of limber hooked to Mack shows 4 clamps holding each air brake line to limber, but TM shows 3 ... how much sleep am I supposed to loose over these things ???

Be advised building that gun zok... if you want to build it ready to fire with trails spread, there are a huge number of things that have to be changed. There are a couple of steps that really should be combined. Mainly mounting brackets that need to line up with tie-down bars. The lack of holes or defined mounting areas really make a mess of lining things up. Had to pull so many brackets off and remount on this kit.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jratz Larry: Hate to break this to you, but .... Remember this discussion started over 4 tiny handles ?? Well, from the looks of your 1st picture, you'll have to build part of the Limber to get the Trail Clamp Bracket (B23,24,45) and maybe the Limber Lift Bracket (B13,14,15). You'll then need the B17,B20 handles on the Clamp.

Yeah, I've been planning on building that piece. i'm not sure it's part of the limber though, is it?. As far as I can tell, it's a separate piece that hooked onto the trails and the limber. (The limber was sometimes called "the dolly," apparently.)

QUOTE: There are no guide holes, nothing & the handles are a bit oversize. I carefully held them down & gently squeezed with a pair of tweezers to take maybe 1/32" out of the gap so they'd hold to the tabs on B45 while trying to glue.

Thanks for the heads up. Not having built it yet, I'm still not completely sure what the problem is, but if the handles are not wide enough to jump a gap (is that the issue here?), maybe I'll just make some out of wire. Hmm.

Say, those WWII wheels, how do they differ from the kit wheels? Are the WWII wheels the ones with the 6 holes in them, the Budd wheels I think they were called? Or is there something else different?

Scorn:
Haha, ok so you got me to look into the actual box, and man, that gun will probably make me go blind. I can't wait to see you finish it.

On that note, I finished the flak 43 gun and carriage, but still not done. Have to paint the ammo, and weather the thing as a whole.

By the end of the weekend it should be done.

Larry:

Hate to break this to you, but .... Remember this discussion started over 4 tiny handles ??

Well, from the looks of your 1st picture, you'll have to build part of the Limber to get the Trail Clamp Bracket (B23,24,45) and maybe the Limber Lift Bracket (B13,14,15). You'll then need the B17,B20 handles on the Clamp.

There are no guide holes, nothing & the handles are a bit oversize. I carefully held them down & gently squeezed with a pair of tweezers to take maybe 1/32" out of the gap so they'd hold to the tabs on B45 while trying to glue.

BTW: You'll think the handles are great compared to B34 & B35 on the bogies !!!! To get them off the sprue without breaking them is a nightmare. And if you can do that, cleanup is even worse. I would love to catch the guy who designed that sprue in a dark alley ....

QUOTE: Originally posted by jratz I saw that post & I'm having trouble visualizing it. The standard pintle will rotate, but unless you put some ring-like thing thru it, the towed piece will have no left-right (ie, a turn) motion only up-down in relation to the angle of the pintle. Pending receipt of the TM, I would think there is another piece (looking like a ring) that mounts to the "clamp" in your pictures & is hooked in the pintle.

I guess there would be some play to the extent that the hole in the towing pintle exceeded the size of the clamp in my pictures. I agree though, doesn't seem like a lot of wiggle room. Unfortunately, this is not the most frequently-discussed topic on God's green earth, so a lot of info hasn't been flushed up on it. Too bad the Germans didn't use them!

So I will await your TM, which hopefully addresses this.

In the meantime, I wrote directly yo PSP to see how quickly I could get a set of their WWII wheels. I first checked with RJ but there is apparently some kind of computer glitch that is keeping them from contacting PSP -- I won't get into the dirty details. greatmodels.com doesn't seem to carry their stuff.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Larry_Dunn By the way Rick Carlson on the Missing Lynx forum says that the option I considered above is correct -- the horizontal pin on the trails goes through the vertical towing pintle.

I saw that post & I'm having trouble visualizing it. The standard pintle will rotate, but unless you put some ring-like thing thru it, the towed piece will have no left-right (ie, a turn) motion only up-down in relation to the angle of the pintle.

Pending receipt of the TM, I would think there is another piece (looking like a ring) that mounts to the "clamp" in your pictures & is hooked in the pintle.

Neat discussion -- I'm learning things here.

BTW, my pic came from the US Army Photo History of ETO & MTO -- part of the 90-some volume "Green Book" history of the Army in WW2.

Progress Report:

Just finished the figures (nine in all) including the motorcycle. So basically, I have completed the kit OOB. Next step will be the base for the dio.

Looks like I slowly getting there.

By the way Rick Carlson on the Missing Lynx forum says that the option I considered above is correct -- the horizontal pin on the trails goes through the vertical towing pintle.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jratz Larry: OK, I'm annoyed .... I ordered a TM for the Mack NO today. I was gonna wait till I actually got the kit, but this "special coupling" is buggin' me ....

Great!

Your question is a good one, and one I am fretting over right now! I found a bunch of pics of the guns being pulled by the NO, and they all show it without the limber, but none of them are close-ups of the coupling. Shame that the Tanxheaven site offers great close-up photos, but shows it hooked up to the limber. But check these pictures out:

1) The end of the trails of the 8" gun. Notice the pin running horizontally at the end.


2) Now here's the towing eye on the Mack NO. Unfortunately, it is depicted with the limber attached. Wonder if the pin shown above was put through that towing eye? If so, there wouldn't be a lot of play. I'm dubious about it.


Then again, this image from WWII suggests to me that that is exactly what they were doing -- I blew it up twice size to make the coupling clearer.


Alternately, if the towing eye on the truck pivoted so that it could accept a vertical pin, then maybe they just dropped the pin that comes with the AFV Club gun kit (piece B13) into the hole. The plot thickens.

The Azimut instructions for the Mack NO show a simple tow hook that says its for "le Long Tom 155mm." It shows a towing ring with a pin going through it horizontally (for some reason). That doesn't work for the limber, which has a hole for a vertical pin, not a horizontal one.

QUOTE: When I get it, I'll scan up a pix or two of the thingie for your use .... should be week to 10 days ...

Terrific. Really looking forward.

QUOTE: Meanwhile this is pic with Mack I thought had limber, but does not

Cool picture. Never saw that one!

Larry:

OK, I'm annoyed .... I ordered a TM for the Mack NO today. I was gonna wait till I actually got the kit, but this "special coupling" is buggin' me ....

When I get it, I'll scan up a pix or two of the thingie for your use .... should be week to 10 days ...

Meanwhile this is pic with Mack I thought had limber, but does not (grass hides fact that is missing). Regardless, it is a neat pic & diorama worthy !!!!

http://home.earthlink.net/~jratzweb1/images/Mack_155_Hill.jpg