AIRCRAFT - Battle of Britain Group Build (Jan 1st 2005 - May 31st 2005)

OK so is anyone planning on doing the Do17

As far as i can tell it's not on anybody's hit list, it would be a shame if it's not covered here in this GB, i would like to see all the main combat aircraft covered very much

If nobody's gonna do it by Feb i'll take it onbut i'll have to ditch the 109until a later date.......Jules.....

I've been contemplating it Jules.. but if you wanna take it over be welcome! I have too much on the table as it is... plus I am in a kind of "modellers" block right now so not building too fast.. think I have too much on the table at once...

QUOTE: Originally posted by tho9900 I've been contemplating it Jules.. but if you wanna take it over be welcome! I have too much on the table as it is... plus I am in a kind of "modellers" block right now so not building too fast.. think I have too much on the table at once...

Tell me about it Tho, I am suffering from modeling burnout at the moment. I am trying to make a start on my next project and just cannot get the energy up at the moment to do anything. If the kids let me and I can drag my backside into the model room tonight I might make a start on my pre-BoB GB OOB Bf 109.

Here's hoping
Darren

Yeah, kinda got the same here.
But it's not total burnout.
Suffering a bit of 'cockpit block'.

Once the 109 c/p is done, the rest will be childs play.
But getting the c/p the way I want it is getting to me.

Tweety, I love doing the cockpits... it's everything else that gets in the way haha

Darren, yeah I think a combo of work and how many builds I've been trying to get done etc has just got me wanting to take a break, so I am... I'll give it a coupla days and I think I will be longing for the old bench again..

Ok, I've got a question for all you Bf 109 experts. Is the fuselage camouflage demarcation line (between the RLM 02/71 camo and the RLM 65 fuselage side) a hard edge or a soft edge on E model 109's?

Thanks
Darren

Depends on which a/c, era, JG etc.

Most of the a/c pics I have seen show the demarcation line starting to 'creep' up onto the fuselage, and a semi soft/hard edge.
Found a few pics showing a squeaky clean edge, and some showing a mongrel overspray edge.

Depending on the scale, lke 1/48 that I do, I make my edges a little soft but mostly hard, using some Mask It, and spraying at an angle to suit.

On larger scales, I'd go a hard edge, lapping up onto the wing root/fuselage, then apply a little blending.

I take it that the Fw190A wasn't in squadron service at that time, eh? Oh well, put me in for a Ju87B, Hurricane Mk.II, Spitfire Mk.I and a Messerschmitt Bf109E3.

All in 1/144 scale of course!! ;)

it's a bit crude, but it kind of gives you an idea.. here's the three basic schemes I've seen for that period craft (with some variation) but it gives you the idea... the one with no camo and the sharp demarcation line is the most prevelant, the one above it second (in my experience) for BoB camo for the Bf109. but it shows the demarcation (or lack of in the top instance) for each

went to Classic Airframes and they still have the Defiant listed as "Future", same with great models... Squadron didn't even list it at all...

I will get it when it comes out tho.. might call the guys at the new LHS I am frequenting see if know anything about it.. they have a LARGE selection of Classic Airframes there...

it's available here, but the price will shock you guys stateside[:0]....welcome to my world....

http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/?FULL=CF471

regards,

Nick

QUOTE: Originally posted by tho9900 it's a bit crude, but it kind of gives you an idea.. here's the three basic schemes I've seen for that period craft (with some variation) but it gives you the idea... the one with no camo and the sharp demarcation line is the most prevelant, the one above it second (in my experience) for BoB camo for the Bf109. but it shows the demarcation (or lack of in the top instance) for each

Thanks Tho & Tweets.

BTW, that pic wouldn't happen to be from one of my all time favourite PC games Secret Weapons Of The Luftwaffe would it?

Cheers
Darren

Darson Tweety's got it right it all depends on the A/C, most of the camo was field applied so there's a huge variation in camo schemes........

Mate you had better add the Do17 to the list, i'm remaining optimistic about the 109 hopefully i can get it done but you should take it off just in case.......Jules......

BTW whats all this modellers burnout stuff, i just tell myself GET OFF YOUR
AND DO SOMETHING, seems to work....................most of the time..............not all the time

QUOTE: Originally posted by j.s.harrison Darson Tweety's got it right it all depends on the A/C, most of the camo was field applied so there's a huge variation in camo schemes........ Mate you had better add the Do17 to the list, i'm remaining optimistic about the 109 hopefully i can get it done but you should take it off just in case.......Jules...... BTW whats all this modellers burnout stuff, i just tell myself GET OFF YOUR AND DO SOMETHING, seems to work....................most of the time..............not all the time

Love to get off my , but I have to squeeze it inbetween my 13 hour days at work.
Oh to win lotto, maybe tommorrow

QUOTE: Originally posted by j.s.harrison Darson Tweety's got it right it all depends on the A/C, most of the camo was field applied so there's a huge variation in camo schemes........ Mate you had better add the Do17 to the list, i'm remaining optimistic about the 109 hopefully i can get it done but you should take it off just in case.......Jules...... BTW whats all this modellers burnout stuff, i just tell myself GET OFF YOUR AND DO SOMETHING, seems to work....................most of the time..............not all the time

phew, thanks mate I needed that.

I got back to the bench and made some progress on my pre-GB 109 last night. This is a 1/48 Tamiya 109 E3 OOB (except for Ultracast seat and Areomaster decals). I will post progress here as I go.

Cheers
Darren

well tomorrow is the day.... the wife is going to an all day Karate tournament up north a bit so that means at least 8 hours of uninterrupted modelling! Problem is which one to work on first? haha... probably my 240Z from the Old Guns build... it's closest to being finished... (nice thing about cars, I didnt know till I built one, not much cockpit to get involved in)

Might even skip out on the building and go get that Ju-88 or Do-17 whichever pops up first... would still have time for a nap and modelling too!

Tweety: I know what you mean... I made the mistake of telling my boss she should delegate more, instead of taking all the responsibility.. well she is now... she delegates it to me!!!

Darren: I knew that screen looked familiar!!!! I used to LOVE that game! Lucas came out with the sequel this year but it was bad bad bad! Secret weapons over Normandy was nothing but an arcade style game... SWOTL was the standard for quite some time!!! and believe it or not I still felt it was more realistic than most of the modern flyers I have tried...

QUOTE: Originally posted by j.s.harrison BTW whats all this modellers burnout stuff, i just tell myself GET OFF YOUR AND DO SOMETHING, seems to work....................most of the time..............not all the time

haha I tried that already Jules... decided to take this week off and just hang around the forums to get the itch again and it's working... I'm stubborn and when someone tries to make me do something I really don't feel like doing I dig in my heels... even when it's ME doing the pushing!

Yeah i know what you mean Tom, i have a stubborn streak too, but i don't seem to have a problem making myself work on models cause my collection is only 4 strong and i want many more finished builds to display.....

Tweets 13 hours a day at work and husband father duties, it's amazing that you get any modelling done at all

OK so i have to ask this
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THE RAF LOST THE BOB

Operation Sea Lion would have gone ahead, the Royal Family would have fled to Canada and England would have sued for peace. After that, Germany could have concentrated all their miltary (now with the west secured) and smashed the Soviet Union. Cannot remember the author now but a book called "Fatherland" . Set in the late 60's (Hitler hated the Beatles) it tells the thrilling tale of a German cop who unearths the hideous truth about the extermination of the Jews. Good novel and movie.

What I find facinating is that if Hitler had not curtailed development of jet engines and jet fighter prototypes in the late 30's, then the RAF could well have been facing jet fighters in 1940. Lot's of "what-ifs" there....

Hmmm, a Me262 or the Heinkel jet in 1940 era splinter and yellow jet nacelles...

cheers

Mike

Ok Mike what about the Home fleet in Scapa,Battleships pound German positions in France from 20klm's away while Destroyers and Cruisers go into the Channel to attack
the invasion force, at night of course or the Luftwaffe would have had a feild day......

BTW i remember the movie with Ruetger Hauer in it i think......

Mike, I read Fatherland when it came out, a truly chilling book!

Have you read Len Deighton's SSGB, which is set in London in 1941 after the succesful German invasion of the UK? Horribly readable, and a scary prospect! Also of couse by the same author, Fighter, the history of the BoB.

Maybe if the Air Ministry had put more faith in Whittle in the late 20s and early 30s, it could have been 109s versus Meteors! Think the outcome would have been the same, maybe just a little quicker!

Karl

Ooooooooooooooooh, Brits losing the BoB huh.

Most people are reserved to the fact had Germany gained control of England, then most of Europe would also have fallen.

I dont think Russia would have gone under, far too many rebel squads would have hampered the plan forever.

Good point Mike, but Goering is mostly too blame, he was spose to inform Hitler of testing developements, but did not emphasise just how awesome the potential was.
If they had, there would have been no way ANYONE could have air supremacy other than the Germans.

At least the research wasn't wasted, I know of one country that used every scrap of info they could find, and researchers too!

QUOTE: Originally posted by j.s.harrison Ok Mike what about the Home fleet in Scapa,Battleships pound German positions in France from 20klm's away while Destroyers and Cruisers go into the Channel to attack the invasion force, at night of course or the Luftwaffe would have had a feild day...... BTW i remember the movie with Ruetger Hauer in it i think......

Operation Sea Lion called for the complete distruction of the RAF before the invasion begun, Adler Tag or Eagle Day was going to be the culmination of the Luftwaffe's effort to ensure this happened. In 1940, the Royal Navy's capital ships would not have survived air attacks (either at sea once found or at anchor at Scapa) by an utterly dominant Luftwaffe once the RAF had been removed from the air. In 1941 The HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse were sunk off Singapore by Japanese aircraft for the same reason.

Hitler and his chiefs of staff knew that the Royal Navy had to be neutralised as a force once the RAF was taken out.

The Kreigsmarine would been able to mop up the remainder with uboats and the small surface fleet Germany had at the time.

Admiral Raeder did not want to engage the Royal Navy in battle until the mid 50's when the "Z-plan" was in full swing. This plan projected the Kreigmarine to have battleships with 21"-22" guns and battlecruisers mounting 16" guns. In this way the Royal Navy would be seriously challenged and outgunned . However the war started earlier than expected. The Kreigsmarine were very worried, almost terrified of what the Royal Navy could do to any invasion force that tried to cross the channel and wanted to be able to eliminate the Navy for force of arms or superior vessels.

Karl
I read SSGB many years ago, cannot remember much now but it certainly was a very thought provoking book!. I know in Fatherland that the Russian resistance had retreated to Siberia which had become Germany's version of Vietnam.

Tweety
You are right on that score, Goering was simply completely incompetent on a lot of issues. Ill advised as well, eg Ernst Udet, who insisted that every german aircraft from the Stuka upwards had to be able to dive bomb (the Ju88 has dive brakes for the reason). Hitler was the one who gave the order to stop Jet research before 1940 though, to concetrate industry into a war production phase.

Now if England had gone ahead with the Whittle through to the Meteor and Vampire, then combat between jets might well have been on the cards, perhaps as early as 1941. Still, a jet fighter equiped Luftwaffe in 1940 might not have been out of the question.

I saw a show on Video called Hitlers Secret Weapons, where they showed footage of V2's being fired underwater from barges towed by Uboats, now that was thought provoking!!

cheers

Mike

V2's under water huh.

Sounds like the modern day submarines too me.

Barges, that sounds like our Collins class.

hmmm, now do not get me started on that subject!

cheers

Mike

Mike, the Germans made several underwater launches in the Baltic in early 1945.

It would have taken them several years to deploy V2s at sea due to the difficulties and dangers involved in the fuelling/launch process. I think we all know that New York would have become the first target, if only for symbolic value.

The wonder is that the Gerams did not deploy Wasserfall earlier, as it would have been devastating against the densely packed USAAF formations operating over the Reich.

Karl

I feel the same Carl, those formations all up tight in a box formation, with a German missile with considerable explosive payload guided right into one... they could have disabled, or taken out 3 or 4 planes with one missle (with the resulting debris being forcefully thrown out from the explosion of the missile...)

the inner industrial yards of Germany could have probably been saved with a decent amount of the Wasserfall... resulting in more production of war material, it would only take a few attacks before the Allied tactics would have to be majorly overhauled...

I don't know if it would have changed the ultimate outcome, but it would have lengthened the war who knows how long...

---edit--

Although reading a bit more about the Wasserfall, one reason it was never widely used is the allied ability to jam its radio link to the controller.... along with a substandard guidance and stabilization system...

---Tom---

By the way... good news! In an effort to get me out of modellers block and also be done with 2 group builds at once... I am building a 1/72 F6F Hellcat.. and loving the you know what out of it... It's almost like I was a little boy again.. 2 bare sprues with relatively few parts... 2 clear pieces... one sheet of decals... none of which say "No Step" or "Radio transmitter located under this infintessimally small panel... nosirree... they all state proudly US NAVY! or US in large easy to read and even easier to place on the fuselage letters! It was all I could do to put it aside tonight and let the paint dry...

If I wasn't careful it WOULD have been like I was a little boy again: with messy cement coated fingers, placing whitened canopy on yet unsanded fuselage, still wet with paint... (almost sounded like I was starting a Dylan Thomas poem for a sec... hmmm...)

What does this have to do with this topic? Well boys, the enjoyment came back... I was on 4 hard builds at once and it took the fire out of me.. getting something near to off the desk and completed has me excited.... my fingers are already anticipating running down the fuselage of that Ju87... contemplating what the 1/48 Classic Airframes (1990's release) Boulton Paul Defiant I bid on in Ebay tonight will feel like, whilst I caress its' "finely recessed panel lines" and feel the cold silence of the PE laying yet still dormant in my hands...waiting to awake and scream out .... "I NEED CA!!!!!"...

I'm back in the game... I was getting scared because I have spent about $500 on kits and a new airbrush this month.. and then the fun died and so did my lust for styrene (the plastic polymer, not the forum user here )

I hope to hear about the Defiant... but as a hedge I will start on the Ju87 soon... and if it doesn't come in I am doing the Ju88 if I can find the period appropriate build... I still think the monogram night fighter kit comes with a panel to replace the glass cover for the radio direction finder on the dorsal fuselage, as well as the glass nose for the bombadier/nose gunner... we'll see.. I have an annoying habit of saving old instructions so I will check for them...

Look out! It's time to build again!!!!

Sub standard materials certainly dogged Germany in the last year or so of the war. That, coupled with production problems and delays caused by Hitler and Goering (Hitler insisting that the Me262 be used for a blitzbomber not a fighter) meant that some of the better fighters never reached production.

cheers

Mike

QUOTE: Originally posted by tho9900 By the way... good news! In an effort to get me out of modellers block and also be done with 2 group builds at once... I am building a 1/72 F6F Hellcat.. and loving the you know what out of it... It's almost like I was a little boy again.. 2 bare sprues with relatively few parts... 2 clear pieces... one sheet of decals... none of which say "No Step" or "Radio transmitter located under this infintessimally small panel... nosirree... they all state proudly US NAVY! or US in large easy to read and even easier to place on the fuselage letters! It was all I could do to put it aside tonight and let the paint dry... If I wasn't careful it WOULD have been like I was a little boy again: with messy cement coated fingers, placing whitened canopy on yet unsanded fuselage, still wet with paint... (almost sounded like I was starting a Dylan Thomas poem for a sec... hmmm...) What does this have to do with this topic? Well boys, the enjoyment came back... I was on 4 hard builds at once and it took the fire out of me.. getting something near to off the desk and completed has me excited.... my fingers are already anticipating running down the fuselage of that Ju87... contemplating what the 1/48 Classic Airframes (1990's release) Boulton Paul Defiant I bid on in Ebay tonight will feel like, whilst I caress its' "finely recessed panel lines" and feel the cold silence of the PE laying yet still dormant in my hands...waiting to awake and scream out .... "I NEED CA!!!!!"... I'm back in the game... I was getting scared because I have spent about $500 on kits and a new airbrush this month.. and then the fun died and so did my lust for styrene (the plastic polymer, not the forum user here ) I hope to hear about the Defiant... but as a hedge I will start on the Ju87 soon... and if it doesn't come in I am doing the Ju88 if I can find the period appropriate build... I still think the monogram night fighter kit comes with a panel to replace the glass cover for the radio direction finder on the dorsal fuselage, as well as the glass nose for the bombadier/nose gunner... we'll see.. I have an annoying habit of saving old instructions so I will check for them... Look out! It's time to build again!!!!

Hi Tho, here is a link to a review of and comparison between the old and new CA Defiants. http://kits.kitreview.com/defiantreviewse_1.htm BTW, what sort of airbrush did you get?

I have managed to beat my burnout by doing something new (for me anyway) I have started work on the cockpit of my Bf 109 E3. This will be my first German aircraft since I was a kid and my first ever attempt at mottled camo, so no laughing when I post my progress photos.

I was in a hobby store this morning getting some paint for the 109 and the owner who is a nice bloke asked for details on the GB and said he might drop in to say hello. So if he does, it was me you were talking too. I hope that kinda made sense

Cheers
Darren