The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

oddmanrush

What kind of mission would a Phantom bearing 15 miniguns participate in? Ground attack I would presume but I mean, that's not very, uh, versatile eh?

Either that or he's lookin' to dog fight every Mig in the alley....

If you look at the caption on the photograph, you will see the aircraft is assigned to the weapons test squadron at Eglin AFB.  That was their job, to test weapons to see if they were compatible to use on the F-4.  They tested a lot of thing that was never cleared for operational use on the F-4. 

I know one thing those miniguns would have been good for... Emergency Dive and/or speed brakes..  lol  Imagine all 15 firing at the same time...  You'd probably lose about 10 knots per second. lol

TarnShip

two funny things to reply to

first, the 15 miniguns,,,,,,,,as for the possible usage of that load,,,,,,I can see it going down a road that starts out filled with trucks,,,,,and the Recce bird not being able to find the target to take post strike pics,,,,,,,,think about those videos of what the AC-130 does to an area,,,,,,,,,that was definately being considered for air to ground, lol

the other thing,,,,,,,in all the time I've had that book, I've never noticed the Micky Mouse's hanging on that sway brace,,,,,,,,but, I was sort of used to finding them hanging in some strange places back in the day,,,,,,,,,,,the "lower rank pukes" would shed them for their "comfort" any time your back was turned, lol,,,,,,,,,,,,,being one of the lower ranking NCO's,,,,,,,I was the lucky guy that "got" to run around taking care of the little nagging things the Reserve enlisted would do on their weekend with us,,,,,,,,,,"nose wiping detail" it was called,,,,,,,ack,,,,,,I got to liking weekdays a lot towards the end, there,,,,,,,,,only us Regulars around, lol

as much as I swore at the "weekenders* ",,,,,I actually respect them for doing both their civilian jobs and then coming to their drill weekends,,,,,,,,,,looking back on it from the age of 54,,,,,,I only had one job back then, they had two

Rex

*weekenders,,,,,,after a bit of thought,,,,,,,,,best to use that term,,,,,all of the other terms wouldn't be "FSM safe", lol

two funny things to reply to

first, the 15 miniguns,,,,,,,,as for the possible usage of that load,,,,,,I can see it going down a road that starts out filled with trucks,,,,,and the Recce bird not being able to find the target to take post strike pics,,,,,,,,think about those videos of what the AC-130 does to an area,,,,,,,,,that was definately being considered for air to ground, lol

the other thing,,,,,,,in all the time I've had that book, I've never noticed the Micky Mouse's hanging on that sway brace,,,,,,,,but, I was sort of used to finding them hanging in some strange places back in the day,,,,,,,,,,,the "lower rank pukes" would shed them for their "comfort" any time your back was turned, lol,,,,,,,,,,,,,being one of the lower ranking NCO's,,,,,,,I was the lucky guy that "got" to run around taking care of the little nagging things the Reserve enlisted would do on their weekend with us,,,,,,,,,,"nose wiping detail" it was called,,,,,,,ack,,,,,,I got to liking weekdays a lot towards the end, there,,,,,,,,,only us Regulars around, lol

as much as I swore at the "weekenders* ",,,,,I actually respect them for doing both their civilian jobs and then coming to their drill weekends,,,,,,,,,,looking back on it from the age of 54,,,,,,I only had one job back then, they had two

Rex

*weekenders,,,,,,after a bit of thought,,,,,,,,,best to use that term,,,,,all of the other terms wouldn't be "FSM safe", lol

are the yanks that bad at aiming they need 50 million rounds per min to hit anything? lol

(flame suit and crash hat on)

oddmanrush

What kind of mission would a Phantom bearing 15 miniguns participate in? Ground attack I would presume but I mean, that's not very, uh, versatile eh?

Either that or he's lookin' to dog fight every Mig in the alley....

That would make it a Mig "perforator" instead of a Mig "Killer"! 

Ken

What kind of mission would a Phantom bearing 15 miniguns participate in? Ground attack I would presume but I mean, that's not very, uh, versatile eh?

Either that or he's lookin' to dog fight every Mig in the alley....

AAAhhhh...soooo that's what they used before Agent Orange....

Hi Jim,

Yep, 15 miniguns.  Thanks for the offer, but I already picked up a bunch.  Squadron had 'em on sale for about 2 bucks a pair, so I grabbed what I needed.  Wish you woulda offered sooner...you coulda saved me some dough! 

Serioulsy, I think I have everything I need for the build.  The hardest part was coming up with enough TERs.  I know Hase offers 'em in a few of their weapons boxes, but I couldn't justify spending a good amount of money for a couple of TERs.  Luckily, a few generous modelers have donated some plastic to my project.

I'm almost done with my current project.  As soon as I wrap it up, I'm gonna dive in to my Phantom.  I'm really itchin' to get started...

oortiz10

Hi Glenn,

Here's a pic of the jet I'm planning on building. 

Does that say 15 miniguns?!?  Who needs theAC-47, we can pepper the bad guys with that!

That will be a really neat build.  What scale?  I might have some 1/48 SUU-11 pods in my stash.

Jim

TarnShip

O, since you seem to be the one "building because of pylons", lol

those "pylon sway braces" that get mentioned a lot,,,,right at the top of the pylon to wing joint?

well, those aren't sway braces,,,,,,I forget the real name but they are "pylon separation airfoils", not part of the wing at all,,,,,,,,the "curve" goes down, not up,,,,,,,they are there mounted on the pylon to help the pylon separate from the aircraft when they are jettisoned (sorry, got talking about two different things there,,,,,they are sway braces on the outer pylons, and airfoil shaped on the inners)

we just recently had a discussion on MM about those, some posted some pics, etc,,,,,,and Hasegawa has you mount them upside down in their 1/72 kit's instructions,,,,,,in real life they didn't actually touch the wing bottom, there was a gap that would be paper thin in 1/72,,,,,and Monogram's kits have them molded on the wing (not a bad thing, I think they were the first to mold them at all)

so, they were on with the curve down, not up,,,,,to generate "downward lift" during pylon sep ,,,,,,,,,in other words "lift AWAY from the wing, not towards it"

hth

Rex

edit to add:I hope this photo shows what I mean well enough,,,,,if it shows up the same as on Photobucket, you can see the slight shadow caused by the gap

edit again:,,,,,,it shows if you enlarge it

Rex

 

TarnShip:

Those sway braces sure look like earphones to me! That musta' been one BIG bomb they were loadin' up!

Hey FSMers,

OK, I think I can officially call myself obsessed with finding the answer to this outboard pylon question, and I submit the following for your consideration…

OK, let’s take a look at a close-up of the original pic:

Unfortunately it’s not a super hi-res shot, but let’s compare that with what I see in that pic.  I noticed something that I hadn’t noticed before that may finally answer my “what @#$% pylon’s hung on that outboard station”  question.

If we take a look at the aft end of the pylon, it looks to me like it’s missing a “notch.”  I’ve highlighted the outline of the pylon in red with the wing in yellow.

Is it just me, or does it look something like these…

…versus these?

I’ll give you some time to chew on that.  Let me know what you think.  I’m curious to hear (read) your take on it.

Cheers,

-O

Hi Glenn,

Here's a pic of the jet I'm planning on building. 

It's an early USAF F-4C.  It's my understanding that the -C was basically a Navy F-4B that had been "Air Force-ified."  That's why the picture shows "Navy style" inboard pylons, but my main question is directed toward the outboard pylons.

Cheers!

-O

Hi Everyone,

Eatthis, your Phantom is looking real nice! 

Berny, that is an awesome job on the radar package! 

Here is my cockpit so far:

Next step is to cut off the resin base.  I am going to use the saw that Rex recommended.  It will be my first time doing this, so wish me luck!

Ken

berny13

Bockscar, did you get the AM radome yet?  Is it solid resin or hollow on the inside?  I am building my Revell F-4E with the radome open and the radar package extended so I would need a hollow radome for my project. 

Berny that package looks like it oughta' be in orbit! Careful where you point it, wouldn't want to fry anything inadvertently!

No I haven't seen the resin radome yet, my experience is that resin tends to be thick if hollow at all.

We have a postal worker who goes micro-postal and crushes packages, who knows why?

I'll be lucky if the unit is solid, it might survive they guy's bashings. Will keep you posted.

Hey, Ya'll,

In O's pic of the a/c with the Navy pylon, I noticed the paint scheme didn't look "Navy" to me. Do you have an overall view of that a/c, O?

Thanks

Glenn

thanks iv only been spending around 2 hours per night average on it

decals done :) just gotta do the missiles now.
needs another gloss coat then the wash then a satin final coat and itl be done :)

TarnShip

sorry if my sarcasm seemed to point at you Bernie

I meant the answers in the other thread,,,,,,it is very hard to type sarcasm without the tone of voice to help carry it over,,,,,,,,,,,but, don't you ever get the feeling when you read that "everything just sprang up at once" when you read some responses?

that "six pack of 20mm to go" sure would have gotten it's 15 minutes of fame,,,,,,,,for just about 15 minutes per flight, lol,,,,,,,,a model of it would go right along with O's though, wouldn't it?

just wanted to make sure I hadn't insulted you,,,,,hence this quick message

Rex

I know it wasn't pointed at me, and no offence taken.  I just added my to your reply.  It was to show that nothing is set in stone and any thing is possible when it comes to how the F-4 was configured.

I saw all kind of strange stuff loaded on the test Phantoms.  Some which I have no idea of what they were, even to this day. 

Bockscar, did you get the AM radome yet?  Is it solid resin or hollow on the inside?  I am building my Revell F-4E with the radome open and the radar package extended so I would need a hollow radome for my project. 

sorry if my sarcasm seemed to point at you Bernie

I meant the answers in the other thread,,,,,,it is very hard to type sarcasm without the tone of voice to help carry it over,,,,,,,,,,,but, don't you ever get the feeling when you read that "everything just sprang up at once" when you read some responses?

that "six pack of 20mm to go" sure would have gotten it's 15 minutes of fame,,,,,,,,for just about 15 minutes per flight, lol,,,,,,,,a model of it would go right along with O's though, wouldn't it?

just wanted to make sure I hadn't insulted you,,,,,hence this quick message

Rex

TarnShip

looking at responses,,,,,,it's also very evident that notes that have been made for model building have been done in a sort of,,,,,,,,"It's a B, it has these things", "it's a C, it has these",,,,,,,,,,not just Phantoms, it's all over everything except a few "special interest" aircraft pets,,,,,,,,,,,apparently, nothing evolved in service,,,,,it all just "sprang up" at once,,,,,,,the answers after the first few show that to you,,,,,,,,just answers that say,,,,,,,,USN was this, USAF was that, without considering that you might have USN on the inners, and USAF on the outers

the talk about the "MER forward, MER to the rear" should help you,,,,,,,,just tack some parts together with temp glue and park your aircraft at the same angle as the pic,,,,,,,and see if your belly gunpods line up the same to your eye

Nothing loaded on any aircraft is absolute.  I could say that a type of ordinance wasn't carried by the Phantom and someone will come up with a picture to prove me wrong.  I saw a F-4J at China Lake loaded with USAF style inboard pylons because of a special test they were doing.  Does that mean they were considering going to that type of pylon?  Test outfits from all branches of the service loaded things not seen on front line service aircraft.  When I was stationed at Eglin AFB, I saw a F-4E from the weapons test outfit taxi past with five SUU-23 gun pods loaded.  All five stations had a gun pod loaded which meant it was flying with six guns.  That was not your every day normal load. 

The USAF started doing away with the Navy style pylons in the mid 60's but to say after a certain date no Navy style pylons were carried would be wrong.  The USAF preferred the newer style pylons because they could carry more weight.  The Navy preferred the older style because the were lighter and more streamline.  Who is to say which branch made the best choice.  The Navy style pylons were carried by the RF-4C because a bomb rack equiped pylon wasn't needed.  The only thing carried by the RF was an ECM pod, travel pod or other equipment used by the RF. 

The Navy was offered a version of the F-4E which they turned down because they felt the F-4's they had in service at the time would meet all of their needs.  By the time they realized they needed a gun equiped F-4 they were well into the development of the F-14.  They were afraid that by ordering a Navy version of the F-4E it would jeopordize the F-14 project. 

oortiz10

As some of you have come to realize, I know jack about the F-4.  So, here I am with more questions...

OK, I know that the Navy style inboard pylons needed an adapter when using a TER.  I also know that the pylons were painted to match the color of the aircraft's underside (in my case, gray, FS 36622).  So, were the adapters painted to match the pylon (36622), or the TER (white)?  I'm assuming the TERs were white; could someone confirm that?

Next question:  Since use of the TERs on Navy style inboard pylons required an adapter, did the Navy style outboard pylons also require the same adapter when loaded with TERs?

Thanks in advance!

-O

 

The pylons were painted to match the underside color.  The shoe or weapons adapter was also painted to match the color of the pylon.  The Navy style inboard pylons were actually a "Zero Launch" launcher for the AIM-7 missile so the weapons adapter had to be installed to carry anything on the pylon.  MER's and TER's were painted gloss white regardless of the pylon color. 

It would be safe to say the inboard pylon would be FS36622 but not so much for the outboard pylon.  The military was slow in painting external equipment not carried on a daily basis.  The outboard could be gray or white.

The aircraft in the picture has the Navy style outboard pylon installed because I can see the adapter, but I know where to look for it.  The pylon also had to have an adapter installed to carry a load of any type.   

O, since you seem to be the one "building because of pylons", lol

those "pylon sway braces" that get mentioned a lot,,,,right at the top of the pylon to wing joint?

well, those aren't sway braces,,,,,,I forget the real name but they are "pylon separation airfoils", not part of the wing at all,,,,,,,,the "curve" goes down, not up,,,,,,,they are there mounted on the pylon to help the pylon separate from the aircraft when they are jettisoned (sorry, got talking about two different things there,,,,,they are sway braces on the outer pylons, and airfoil shaped on the inners)

we just recently had a discussion on MM about those, some posted some pics, etc,,,,,,and Hasegawa has you mount them upside down in their 1/72 kit's instructions,,,,,,in real life they didn't actually touch the wing bottom, there was a gap that would be paper thin in 1/72,,,,,and Monogram's kits have them molded on the wing (not a bad thing, I think they were the first to mold them at all)

so, they were on with the curve down, not up,,,,,to generate "downward lift" during pylon sep ,,,,,,,,,in other words "lift AWAY from the wing, not towards it"

hth

Rex

edit to add:I hope this photo shows what I mean well enough,,,,,if it shows up the same as on Photobucket, you can see the slight shadow caused by the gap

edit again:,,,,,,it shows if you enlarge it

Rex

O, not a problem at all,,,,,,,I've sort of been rationing my typing lately,,,,,,my Tingers are killing me

one benefit of you having that thread on ARC,,,,,,if you go the linked thread and scroll down,,,,,you'll see that USN outer pylon pic with weapons adapter,,,,,,,,,,,compare that to your pic of an outer pylon,,,,,,,,it's very obvious that you have a USAF outer style then,,,,,,,,,,the angle I was talking about with the USN is very evident in that guy's photo

looking at responses,,,,,,it's also very evident that notes that have been made for model building have been done in a sort of,,,,,,,,"It's a B, it has these things", "it's a C, it has these",,,,,,,,,,not just Phantoms, it's all over everything except a few "special interest" aircraft pets,,,,,,,,,,,apparently, nothing evolved in service,,,,,it all just "sprang up" at once,,,,,,,the answers after the first few show that to you,,,,,,,,just answers that say,,,,,,,,USN was this, USAF was that, without considering that you might have USN on the inners, and USAF on the outers

the talk about the "MER forward, MER to the rear" should help you,,,,,,,,just tack some parts together with temp glue and park your aircraft at the same angle as the pic,,,,,,,and see if your belly gunpods line up the same to your eye

these decals seemed way too thick to sink into the panel lines so i ripped them off and masked them

doin the decals now they seem very very thick so im binning some of them and masking/painting instead

Hey Rex,

Yeah, I saw your answer on ARC.  If you don't mind, I've posted your response below for everyone here on FSM that's interested in your answer, but may not visit ARC.

"hiya O

just before the time period you are building there were no "USN or USAF" pylons,,,,,,,,there were just F-4 inner and outer pylons, USAF pylons were invented later

in your pic it looks like the USAF outer wing weapons pylon has been designed, maybe during those weapons tests

if you look just above the outer TER, you can see the line of the pylon, the line that nearly parallels the ground, that looks like a USAF pylon because it curves the "wrong way",,,,a USN outer with a MER attached would point more "nose first towards the ground" and have a convex curve,,,,,the curve in the pic looks more like concave or straight

hth

Rex"

(Note:  Rex, if you want me to, I have no problem removing your reply.)

Thanks for the beta Rex, it's definitely helpful.  Is there anyone else that wants to weigh in on this?

Cheers,

-O

sorry O,,,,,,I saw that on ARC first,,,,,so I put my thoughts in that thread

I did leave out,,,,,,,TER and MER were white as issued (I know, someone prolly has a pic of a Blue one on a Purple jet, lol)

As some of you have come to realize, I know jack about the F-4.  So, here I am with more questions...

OK, I know that the Navy style inboard pylons needed an adapter when using a TER.  I also know that the pylons were painted to match the color of the aircraft's underside (in my case, gray, FS 36622).  So, were the adapters painted to match the pylon (36622), or the TER (white)?  I'm assuming the TERs were white; could someone confirm that?

Next question:  Since use of the TERs on Navy style inboard pylons required an adapter, did the Navy style outboard pylons also require the same adapter when loaded with TERs?

Thanks in advance!

-O

Hey Jimbot:

Re-doing stuff, or painting myself into a corner seems to be my trademark. Good thing you're finishing the inside of the stacks first.

I never quite know which I am going to run out of first: Patience, or Time!

Eatthis:

Man that's a winner idea! Popular Science is a magazine that shows people how to build stuff like your idea, here's a favourite link:

http://www.popsci.com/archive-viewer?id=EiEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=frontcover&query=1962

Hey gang! No photos this week, and no major progress to report. I did mostly small things like painting all the little blade antennas and other bits on the Geasel, plus painted the stabilators and clear coated them. Even if they don't get any decals I usually clear coat every thing anyway so everything looks more even when Dull coated. Besides, I need to do the bare metal parts and wanted everything else on them to be done so less handling. I also got side tracked painting the AGM's and the ECM pod and began applying decals to them. Kind of jumping the gun a bit there, I guess.

I felt I was neglecting the "F" so tonight I worked on it a bit, gluing the front and rear fuselage together and priming the insides of the intakes. I am trying to finish these ahead of time as I, stupidly, have too often tried doing it after they have been assembled and attached. As it is, I still need to refinish the intakes on the Geasel, as some damage was done to the original intakes during the paint stripping sessions.  As careful as I was, some of the stripper did manage to leak down the sides of the intakes. These kits have no ducting or compressors so I originally painted the back wall black, but think I will tone it down to a gray, so it will be less obvious against the white. Also, some of the construction is very visible on the floor of the intake, so I want to try to fill or mask some of that on the "F".